Christmas is..?

[ThurinEthir]

Jews have Hanukkah. Muslims have Ramadan. Africans of other religions have Kwanzaa. So it's the Atheists and other smaller religions that have taken the religious meaning out of Christmas, as Jews and Muslims have their own holidays, why bother celebrating Christmas...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd say there are two types of Christmas. Yep, two holidays, called the same, on the same day. One is a religious holiday, celebrated by Christians. The other is a commercialized holiday, "celebrated" by everyone. Get it?

[insane]

The other is a commercialized holiday, "celebrated" by everyone. Get it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course I understand that, but why celebrate on the same day?

[Viktorkrum77]

Jews have Hanukkah. Muslims have Ramadan. Africans of other religions have Kwanzaa. So it's the Atheists and other smaller religions that have taken the religious meaning out of Christmas, as Jews and Muslims have their own holidays, why bother celebrating Christmas...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say the population of people who celebrate those holidays is anywhere near the size of Christians. And alot of those religions, like Islam, are celebrated more in countries where the amount of Muslims is so high, celebration and tradition don't degrade very much.

[elmo_killer6]

dunno if anyone has said this or not yet but when christianity was spreading in the early first millenium the christains to make the change easier for conquered peoples merged their holidays so the transition was easier

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

christmas was the ancient germanic holiday to celebrate the winter solstice not the birth of Jesus like most people think

[ThurinEthir]

 

The other is a commercialized holiday, "celebrated" by everyone. Get it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course I understand that, but why celebrate on the same day?

 

 

 

Because of the reason I think you provided. The gifts of the three wise-men have evolved. I would love it if this "commercialized holiday" was moved to another day, and even renamed, but it isn't plausible. The amount of people that "celebrate" it, the silliness of it, and the lack of name would make it extremely unpopular, I'm guessing. Yes, that's partially the point, except not...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jews have Hanukkah. Muslims have Ramadan. Africans of other religions have Kwanzaa. So it's the Atheists and other smaller religions that have taken the religious meaning out of Christmas, as Jews and Muslims have their own holidays, why bother celebrating Christmas...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say the population of people who celebrate those holidays is anywhere near the size of Christians. And alot of those religions, like Islam, are celebrated more in countries where the amount of Muslims is so high, celebration and tradition don't degrade very much.

 

 

 

Well, I wouldn't say those people are Christians. I'm fairly sure a lot of them think they're Christians because they "celebrate" Christmas and Easter. They don't. I have a feeling that if atheists get some strange holiday around this time, most of the people in the USA can celebrate SOME holiday during this time. And I really mean celebrate. (And you know, Hindus would pretty much be the only big group left out. How many Hindus are there in the USA compared to the number of Christians, atheists, Jews and Muslims?)

[foolgool]

Basically the Bible says something along these lines... feel free to contradict me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Virgin Mary was engaged to a man called Joseph, who belonged to the house of David. One day she was visited by an angel, who told her she was to give birth to a son, the son of God, and his name would be Jesu, or Jesus.

 

 

 

She was confused and asked how it was possible as she was a virgin. I can't remember what the angel said next but it was probably about having faith or something.

 

 

 

The Roman Emperor (Herod) had arranged a census (not sure what for but I think it's when you count all the people in the country) Joseph had to travel to Bethlehem, where he was born, and so he got a donkey and walked from Nazareth. When they arrived it was late at night and all the inns were full. Joseph arranged to borrow a stable for the night.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile some shepherds were sleeping in a field when the angel Gabriel told them the son of God was being born, and to go to him, so they did. Far away the Wise Men followed a star towards the stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus was born in the manger, and the 3 Wise Men gave him frankinsense, (sp?) myrrh(sp?) and gold. We celebrate Christmas because it was originally the birth of Christ, but nowadays many people just use the holiday to give presents, eat turkey, and see family.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's pretty much it, I just fixed a few things in the post. Now its just an excuse for some non-religious people to get/give presents.[/b]

[TheLastTemplar]

dunno if anyone has said this or not yet but when christianity was spreading in the early first millenium the christains to make the change easier for conquered peoples merged their holidays so the transition was easier

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

christmas was the ancient germanic holiday to celebrate the winter solstice not the birth of Jesus like most people think

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but it wasn't called christmas....

 

 

 

of course it wouldn't be called CHRISTMAS if they did not celebrate the birth of Christ.

[ryoushinn]

The birth of Jesus Christ.

[warri0r45]

christmas is the celebration of mighty capatalism and greed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it was started by pioneering businessmen who thought that getting consumers to empty thier pokets once a year and make them think it is fun was a good marketing venture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

meaning:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christmas has separated so much from its religous meaning that i feel sorry for christians.

[BlueLancer]

Read about the origins of christmas instead of making assumptions and guesses. Christmas is originally a pagan festival.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many of the symbols associated with the modern holiday of Christmas such as the burning of the Yule log, the eating of ham, the hanging of boughs, holly, mistletoe, etc. are apparently derived from traditional northern European Yule celebrations. When the first missionaries began converting the Germanic peoples to Christianity, they found it convenient to provide a Christian reinterpretation for popular feasts such as Yule and allow the celebrations themselves to go on largely unchanged, versus trying to confront and suppress them. The Scandinavian tradition of slaughtering a pig at Christmas (see Christmas ham), and not in the autumn, is probably the most salient evidence for this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, read about the history of Christmas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is unknown exactly when or why December 25 became associated with Jesus' birth. The New Testament does not give a specific date. Sextus Julius Africanus popularized the idea that Jesus was born on December 25 in his Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in AD 221. This date is nine months after the traditional date of the Incarnation (March 25), now celebrated as the Feast of the Annunciation. March 25 was also considered to be the date of the vernal equinox and therefore the creation of Adam. Early Christians believed March 25 was also the date Jesus was crucified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seems very convenient to change it from spring to winter to comply with the cultural challenges within the northern parts of the roman empire and people who refused to give up their old beliefs.

[insane]

Seems very convenient to change it from spring to winter to comply with the cultural challenges within the northern parts of the roman empire and people who refused to give up their old beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When the first missionaries began converting the Germanic peoples to Christianity, they found it convenient to provide a Christian reinterpretation for popular feasts such as Yule and allow the celebrations themselves to go on largely unchanged, versus trying to confront and suppress them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's called syncretism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The modern celebrations of Christmas (as celebrated in the northern European tradition, originating from Pagan Yule holidays), Easter and Halloween are examples of relatively late Christian syncretism. Earlier, the elevation of Christmas as an important holiday largely grew out of a need to replace the Saturnalia, a popular December festival of the Roman Empire. Roman Catholicism in Central and South America has also integrated a number of elements derived from indigenous and slave cultures in those areas (see the Caribbean and modern sections); while many African Initiated Churches demonstrate an integration of Christian and traditional African beliefs. In Asia the revolutionary movements of Taiping (19th-century China) and God's Army (Karen in the 1990s) have blended Christianity and traditional beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Syncretism can be contrasted with contextualization or inculturation, the practice of making Christianity relevant to a culture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if the point you were trying to make was to once again try and insult Christianity, it's a no-go. Syncretism was a way of making new converts (without oppressing them) more comfortable with Christianity by allowing them to celebrate their old festivals; just with a Christian twinge to them.

[BlueLancer]

I'm not "once again" insulting christianity (provide an earlier example), I'm saying don't try to pull it off as "Jesus's birthday" because that's not what it originally was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Syncretism was a way of making new converts (without oppressing them) more comfortable with Christianity by allowing them to celebrate their old festivals; just with a Christian twinge to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, change the story to gain converts. Let the hindus worship their own gods, just make it so that they believe Brahma was actually created by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and coincidentally place his 'birthday' on December 20-25th.

[blue107]

 

 

 

 

Christmas means "Christ's" "Mass" of the Christian faith. Jesus Christ was born on this day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of people celebrate Christmas anyway without the religious background, but on Christmas we're gathered to be nice to people and give gifts. Christians are gathered to remember the true meaning of Christmas: Remembering the day Christ was born.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But if it was started as a "religious" holiday why take the religious backgrounds out?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nadril- If you have seen some of my previous post on other pages you will find out that this is nothing more than a rhetorical question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's my guess:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The modern day gift-giving evolved from the three Wise Men bringing Jesus gifts. Over the years, as new religions developed and Christianity itself changed, Christmas became less and less of a holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ. Sure, some people still do celebrate it for that reason, but now there are more reasons why people celebrate Christmas. Quite a few non-Christians celebrate it as a reason to get together with their families and exchange gifts to one another (three Wise Men). This idea probably came from some of Christianity's teachings such as loving everyone and all that stuff. People just celebrate it in a more general way instead of just celebrating the birth of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Things evolve over time. We really couldn't expect Christmas to keep the exact same meaning forever :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, just my guess :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But my question still stands..if it was a religious Holiday why take the religios background from it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that Christmas should be celebrated for its true meaning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought I answered it :oops: Not everyone in the world is Christian. Not everyone believes that Jesus does/did exist. So not everyone will celebrate Christmas for that reason, especially when we're this far into the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont think anyone has ever been arrogant enough to question Jesus's existance because if thats what you are implying then my opinion of you has changed :uhh:

[Tigra00]

There's a difference between Jesus exsisting and Jesus being the son of "God".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When people say he didn't exsist, they mean he wasn't the sson of "God". Weither he exsisted as a person or not doesn't really matter. It isn't like he's the only person to have ever been named Jesus.

[assassin_696]

I'm not "once again" insulting christianity (provide an earlier example), I'm saying don't try to pull it off as "Jesus's birthday" because that's not what it originally was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Syncretism was a way of making new converts (without oppressing them) more comfortable with Christianity by allowing them to celebrate their old festivals; just with a Christian twinge to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, change the story to gain converts. Let the hindus worship their own gods, just make it so that they believe Brahma was actually created by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and coincidentally place his 'birthday' on December 20-25th.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's why i'd always understood Christmas was held on the 25th.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with atheists celebrating "Christmas" by getting together with their families, having a nice meal and giving presents. What I have a slight problem with is people who never go to church during the rest of the year, but suddenly pretend they're Christian around Christmas time so they can get involved with all the church services and carols etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either way, it's very easy to be cynical about the commercialism of Christmas, but i'm afraid it's a result of the free capitalist society that we live in. Heck, I even quite like it, it's all good fun, and since i'm not religious I don't get offended by it.

[issy2]

I've always found it [developmentally delayed] that atheists celebrate Christmas. No offense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's an excuse to see family, be united, share in the festive spirit, and eat turkey. :)

[kelem_ryu]

Around the date of christmas is the shortest day/longest nigt of the year. So afterwards the days get longer. This day always got celebrated by about all cultures i guess. The romans celebrated sol invicuts, the invincible sungod. We learned in religious instruction, that christmas is based on this. Although as i said before i guess these days were celebrated even before. The longest night of the year has a great symbolic significance.

[Mercifull]

 

I've always found it [developmentally delayed] that atheists celebrate Christmas. No offense.

 

 

 

I don't at all. As insane said, Christmas has developed so much over the years that it's barely religious-based anymore. Now it's more considered as "the time of giving," or "the time of love/celebration."

Exactly, just like lots of Christian festivals have origins in Pagan culture its just as allowed for atheists to celebrate the tiome for giving and being with your family just as much as a Christian at this time of year.

[BlueTear]

but it wasn't called christmas....

 

 

 

of course it wouldn't be called CHRISTMAS if they did not celebrate the birth of Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I lol'ed IRL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So - oh great linguistical genius - just why is the same holiday not called 'Christmas' in the language of every culture where it's celebrated?

[Striker6]

To all you people calling yourselves Atheist's it's nothing to be proud of, you represent the watered down stance of society. If you open presents on Christmas day you have no right to call yourself an Atheist, regardless of what you claim it has become, the principles still stand. Basically this all stems from people not having a proper understanding of Christianity, if you're going to make claims about it make sure you have read the Bible. Just because you can quote wikipedia does not make you right.

[Anesthesia]

If you open presents on Christmas day you have no right to call yourself an Atheist

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cool! Does that make me the first christian ever to not believe in god? Can I have a prize?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or are you saying that I'm actually a closet christian? I suppose you'd know best.

[BlueLancer]

To all you people calling yourselves Atheist's it's nothing to be proud of, you represent the watered down stance of society. If you open presents on Christmas day you have no right to call yourself an Atheist, regardless of what you claim it has become, the principles still stand. Basically this all stems from people not having a proper understanding of Christianity, if you're going to make claims about it make sure you have read the Bible. Just because you can quote wikipedia does not make you right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but you don't have the right to call 'christmas' a "christian" holiday either. As kindly posted by BlueTear, it's called that only in the english language. Slavic languages for example don't even associate the word "christ" with christmas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because you can quote wikipedia does not make you right

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What would you like to be quoted then? If you want me to, I can verify those facts for you and cite the sources. Then, in return, as a part of a proper debate, you will hand me over YOUR evidence about christmas being an originally "christian" tradition, because it's not; It's a pagan one.

[assassin_696]

 

If you open presents on Christmas day you have no right to call yourself an Atheist

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cool! Does that make me the first christian ever to not believe in god? Can I have a prize?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or are you saying that I'm actually a closet christian? I suppose you'd know best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose it makes me the second as well. I don't see how opening presents as part of a traditionally Christian holiday therefore must mean i'm a christian. A christian is defined on their beliefs, I don't believe in Christianity, ergo i'm not a christian, yet I still open presents. Is it a paradox? Or simply a foolish statement on Striker's behalf?

[____]

Good thing my family opens presents on christmas eve \

[issy2]

 

 

If you open presents on Christmas day you have no right to call yourself an Atheist

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cool! Does that make me the first christian ever to not believe in god? Can I have a prize?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or are you saying that I'm actually a closet christian? I suppose you'd know best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose it makes me the second as well. I don't see how opening presents as part of a traditionally Christian holiday therefore must mean i'm a christian. A christian is defined on their beliefs, I don't believe in Christianity, ergo i'm not a christian, yet I still open presents. Is it a paradox? Or simply a foolish statement on Striker's behalf?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My family aren't Christian, we don't believe in God. We use the holiday as an 'excuse' to see family, and share the festive spirit. Lighten up, it's something that brings pretty much everyone, Christians and athiests, together, for our own enjoyment. I still call myself an athiest.