sees_all1

Compfreak - you don't get it. You're making people out to be "sub-human." Its alright if we maim them, they're not people. What if I told you that you had some undesirable traits, but since you've already procreated, there's nothing we can do now except castrate your children, who carry your traits? What you're un-apologetically saying is that "dumb" people are undesirable, and that is wrong. Its equivalent to what the Nazis did. It all starts out with one person, with their idea that there are "classes of humans" that certain traits are desirable, and that we know what traits are desirable. Its what spawns all bigotry and racism, and if you can't understand that, then you've got serious issues.

That's the same mentality that the Nazis had about 70-80 years ago. Its eugenics, and it isn't something to joke about. Every mass homicide in the history of the world started with thoughts of "Well they're not human, so we don't have to treat them as human" or "How is life worth living in that condition?" GJ, jerk.

It's a pride thing. I see myself as a skillful, accurate, and objective debater, and keeping track is a way for me to verify it. Sometimes you get pretty sarcastic... so I wouldn't call you "objective". But that's just me. Anyhow, what are your conditions for "Winning an argument" - is it getting the other person to see your point, or is it getting the other person to not only see your point, but agree with it and leave theirs behind? Same with losing - is it you have to abandon your ideas, and agree with the other person, and support their views? Back on topic - I would NOT want to see this happen. While santa hats, party hats or h'ween masks ARE tradeable, they no longer symbolize the holidays - just wealth. However, my skeleton suit, chicken suit, and cornucopia all symbolize the holidays, and not just any holidays, the ones bygone. They help prove the age of my account, and let people know I've been around for a while. If you made these items tradeable, they would become like the rares - just a measure of wealth.

The CB has a level of what, 700+? That's less than a 3% chance of looting it with 99 thieving. What about for lootshare and coinshare, the chance for looting the monster is (sum(all thieving levels)^2 / (4 * (monster level^1.9)). The 4 can be some other scale factor... maybe square root of number of members? For Coinshare, the clan owner (or level specified in CC options) is allowed to toggle group looting, and whatever gets looted is immediately sold on GE for min, and all the coins are distributed amongst the clan. For Lootshare, each individual is randomly selected as they are now for who gets the drop/gets to loot it. Once again, the chance for looting the monster for any one individual is the same as the clan's chance. Each individual can decide for themselves to turn looting on or off. I thought the idea of the monster coming back to life was interesting.... but this definitely would not work for lootshare. I'll take it out from my first post.

I read the original suggestion, I skipped most of pages 2 through 3. I see Compfreak's point that making the rare drops less rare with this thieving idea would mess up their prices. I also think the underlying idea (thieving from corpses, possibly getting xp and possibly getting more of an item) has some potential. I don't like the table you proposed for what monsters you're allowed to loot, because I don't see the chance involved. So, let me attempt to make this suggestion a little bit better by proposing a change in it: When you kill a monster, and you're using this new option, it leaves its corpse on the ground. Anyone is allowed to thieve any corpse that they killed, but the probability of getting something extra is based upon the monster's level and the player's thieving level (I'll get to that in a second). -Any item that is dropped that is in the "Rare" table will be dropped as normal. The probability of getting one of these drops does not change, and you're still able to loot the corpse. -Any item that is normally dropped in the common table will not be dropped at all. Instead you have to loot the corpse to get it. If successful, You'll get whatever item you would have gotten multiplied by 1.5. If not successful, you won't get anything. -Any item that is dropped 100% will not be dropped at all. If you're successful in looting the monster, you'll get whatever item normally is one the ground, plus an extra. If not successful, you won't get anything. Looting the 100% drop items is completely independent of looting the normal items - you can fail at one, and not the other, fail at both, or succeed at both. You'll get thieving experience based on the level of the monster if you're successful at looting it. What is the probability of getting a drop? ((Thieving Level)^2 / (Monster level)^1.9), if it's above 1, it will always happen. So someone with 80 thieving looting a level 150 monster will have a 47% chance, Someone with 99 thieving looting a level 126 monster or under will always loot it, Someone with 5 thieving looting a level 10 monster will have a 31% chance. [hide=originally suggested - but not recommended.]What happens if they fail? Well, I'd suggest that not only does the person not get the drop, but the monster (potentially) comes back to life with 10% of it's HP. If it does this, it dies without a corpse. I'd say the probability of this happening is monster's HP / 300. That way low level monsters almost never come back, but high level monsters usually do.[/hide] Not sure how lootshare would factor into this, or even if it could. let me know what you think.

Actually, I think I was in a similar situation to the time he described... I was down to about 16 hp, no food left, I click tele and here comes molly telling me to save her from her evil twin... Worst part is that when you get done, you get tele'd back to the place you were, with the same amount of HP, you have to "click here to continue" and all the time someone could jump you... PVP + randoms = bad.

This is actually what I was looking for, and no, I didn't see that little bit of text on my initial scan through. [hide=shhh]I wanted to know this with the first set of data posted here because the guy used cockroach soldiers, and those are in a multi-combat zone, with probably more than 2 people hitting on it at the same time, so its more than likely that 1/10 of his data are end hits, or the wrong data :/[/hide] I did the GOF test and got a p-value of .02 without the end hits - I'm not sure what I was expecting, however its interesting to note that you hit 2 much more often and 15 much less often. However, all the middle parts (basically) had differences of, I don't know, <1. It was the data with 15 that really screwed up - it's value was 8 something out of all the 22 - if I could just ignore the weak hits of 15, the p-value would be much closer to about .2, meaning no conclusive results :P

I already went over this with Compfreak, and he understands it. How about you try what he suggests, and find a nice, quiet place by some fence where you can use the terrain and binds more effectively, and where it'll be a semi-rare occasion to see more than 1 person at once?

how about r...s.... = RS !!!! ftw. anything else people have found?

Thanks, I already posted that, twice, in fact. I'm aware that you can write your own Math.random or override functions in the Random class - that's one of the integral parts of an OOL. What I'm looking to do, though, is figure out what's going on inside the method. The only way I can do this is to carefully take data - I can't make assumptions and be like "Well, it has to be like this, otherwise it wouldn't make sense" or extrapolate much beyond the data that I take - until I can build a reliable model, test that model at some higher level, and then show that my model is correct with the data I collect. Good news - the cabbages today have an attack value of -1... and draynor cabbages raise your defense by 1/2.

When you collected your data with the deadly red spiders, did you include the finishing hit on them?

Well, only for range. If melee says its no fun to have a mage overpower them, I couldn't care less.

[sarcasm] Thanks mr. point keeper, I'll keep that in mind next time I disagree with him. Oh, and mad props to having an opinion of your own.[/sarcasm] Compfreak, maybe if you've never seen it on video, and most people haven't mastered it, then you're one in a hundred million able to pull off things most other scapers can't. This means when you tell us that magic is over-powered, it's because you're talking about your experience which isn't very common place, and when other people talk about how magic is under-powered, its because their experience hasn't been as good as yours. Oh, and I've learned most of this stuff from reading your arguments on other threads. "It requires skill, levels, money, and a passion for PVP." That's all I needed to hear, enough said. Good argument, looking forward to the next.

Err, what? First you say people are packed in so thick you'll never get a spot to yourself, then you say they're so spread out you don't want to spend 30 minutes looking for a PK. For the record, it's where I PK, and neither of them are true. Plenty of people in wildy, training or PKing training or simply PKing. The chances of getting a kill in a crowded area with any combat style are essentially nil, people just hit a teletab or run. Sorry, you misunderstood me, or I wasn't clear enough in expressing myself. The vast majority of people are packed into a small area of a (relatively speaking) small world. There are other places you can go to look in hopes of a 1v1 with no PJers, but the chances of finding someone your level are much slimmer than if you stick to Varrock or Lumbridge. If you do go somewhere else, not in varrock or lumbridge, it'll take about 30 minutes to find someone your level. I was guesstimating the percentages, but you get the idea. So make up your mind. Do you want a more powerful spell\staff\effect that further unbalances magic, or a weaker version that will never be used. Once you pick one out I can start pointing out flaws. It can't be similar in strength to what there is now? Or a tad stronger but costs much much more? Or stronger in some fashion and weaker in others (Has great melee defense but negative melee attack, range attack/defense, and somewhat neutral mage attack/defense). Or it hits a bit harder but hits less often (time, or accuracy)?

And the person would be animated like they were slipping backwards, sort of like the skating on ice in the last xmas event. I don't think difficulty of coding should be your reason for not wanting something... if you think the spells are too weak, or too powerful, I think that would be a better reason. Thanks for the support though.

Oh. I didn't realize this was a problem specific to mage. What effect is it that prevents melee and range from this horrific circumstance? Nothing really, except usually its when the player takes off and you're chasing after them. You know how mage is, where they stop, cast the spell, lag a little, and catch back up? Its very easy for a melee to tag onto the mage, and prevent them from running. I would point you to F2P Bounty Hunter, but its closed. You'd get instances where someone with no armour, nothing, would run into the crator. Then all the high levels would chase after them - if someone was chasing and hitting at the same time, usually another person would try to "steal" the kill by first hitting the chaser, binding the runner, and then hitting the runner. I've found that Range doesn't have this as much, maybe its because people don't seem to care about rangers, or in F2P a maxed tank in full rune can't be touched. Problem is that when you want a kill, you want a kill. I don't want to spend 30 minutes waiting for someone in the deep wilderness, chances are no one is going to come anyway. It leaves (in my estimate) 75% of the players stretched between Varrock and Lumbridge, with the other 10% being clans in falador, the barbarian village. Another 10% are the brave few to venture into the wilderness, and even then most of them are by varrock in a thin band between the ditch to the FoG entrance to the Hill Giants. The last bit I didn't account for are the skillers, scattered throughout various Yews, and the people training in Karamja. Let me make it clear - I understand if you use a certain set/order of ancient spells in P2P, you'll do well when you're PKing. I also understand that you'll also do better off if you hybrid - surprise is a key element that individual classes alone cannot get you. I'll also be the first to tell you that I'm not a member, and I don't even want to pretend to know everything about member's only content. I also believe that if you add more magic weapons (not spells, weapons), the variety will make it more interesting, even if all you ever see during PVP are the same magic weapons, which is why I support the basic concept, but not the OP's words.

There are two people by you, A and B. You hit A all you want, but as soon as B steps in and "PJs", you can't hit A. You can hit B all you want, but as soon as A steps in, you can't hit B. Never had that happen to you? Its a major problem in F2P, even with low level mages. Glad I could clear that up. Oh, and in F2P PVP - the world is a small percentage of the size of members, yet they still cram in ~1800 people in there. There are no perfect mage spots in F2P, and what I described is a common occurrence.

Hmmmm - this mean that TIF won't get new users with 1 total post count from their rant?

No, its the attacking character has defensive mode on, and the character sitting there has accurate, to make up for this. I remembered something along these lines when I started the first test - to try and eliminate confounding variables (and eliminating the need to create 100 level 3 accounts to get good data). Interesting... I'll have to check this out. Thanks for the input.

Come to think of it, I've NEVER been PJed when fighting with mage in my usual spots. It's very rare to see more then one person at a time. Again, your completely missing the point of what mage is. Armor provides the vast majority of the boost - you could introduce a powerful spell with -50 magic attack, and it would be horrendously overpowered. Don't try and use magic bonus to compensate for a staff, because the staff bonus is only a tiny part of overall magic accuracy. So, let us take what is said here, and apply it to the OP - In F2P, mage only has 1 type of staff, and 2 types of spell (fire blast, teleblock. Bind is too worthless to even waste nats on). If there was another weapon that was introduced for both F2P and P2P, that wasn't as strong as your Zuriel's staff, wasn't as strong as the other awesome staffs that you use, BUT the level requirements were different, would it still be used? Yes, it would, in F2P, and maybe lower leveled mages in P2P. I suggest you create a new account, get it's combat level to 65 (85 mage, 60 HP, 15 def, 45 prayer), and then try to PK with it in F2P worlds. Hint: You'll get piled by everyone, your pathetic F2P combat robes won't help you fend off melee, and you'll be broke from lousy drops even if you do manage to kill people. You could also try to PK with another level 100 account, make a mage tank in P2P. You'll have a much better chance of getting PJed than if you were a level 135+ -because there are more people in your combat range who are willing to take you on. But you wouldn't know that because you PK with your maxed account, in areas that aren't highly trafficked (1 person at a time?). Your certainly welcome to do that. Unfortunately, Ad Hominem applies quite nicely in this situation - namely that I'm accusing you of knowing nothing about members because your FTP. Unfortunately, I'm also right. I'm saying you do not understand why magic needs to be updated so badly for F2P. You don't deal with PJing, you don't deal with lousy bonuses and lousier spells. Unfortunately, the OP deals with BOTH F2P and P2P mage, and when you say "Magic needs to be nerfed before it can receive an update" reflects the fact that all you're thinking about is new high level content that is stronger than what there currently is. It doesn't have to be a higher level, it doesn't have to be stronger - it can be different.

The low P-value (significant at the alpha = 0.01 level!) indicates that the sample size is already large enough and that the chance of getting the observed differences is low if all hits were equally likely. If I repeated the experiment and found that different numbers occurred more/less often, that would suggest that the unbalanced distribution was due to random chance alone and that either the previous P-value was a fluke or that the test assumptions were violated (namely, whether the sample can be treated as an SRS.) I was using defense mode. Sorry to bug you again, but did you include the last hit on each soldier?

I don't know, something I've read somewhere. Maybe its "A skilled ranger is also able to take down a mage easily" or "Rangers have had a huge advantage over the combat triangle" You know... the combat triangle, with Mage, Melee and Range? Do you have a problem arguing that high level mage combos are over powered, the darkbow spec is overpowered, and that the dclaw spec is over powered -- all in different forums at different times? Tell me, is hitting 60 with rune crossbows over powered? Or a 48/48 spec with a dark bow? How about a few DDS for 100+ damage, or 2 dclaw specs for 100+ damage? Are those all overpowered? I don't like arguing things I'm not familiar with, in case you haven't realized this by now. It takes more time and effort for me to look up these numbers than I care for. Its why I'm so open to suggestions in my Contemporary Spellbook idea, especially when it comes to members content. Here's the other thing. Everything you've talked about has been in your perfect world, 1v1 situation with no PJers. Add in the PJer element, and mage gets weaker and weaker. So, what if they introduced a new magical wand, that is much weaker than zuriel's staff, and it only lets the player that you're attacking fight back, i.e. no pjers. Is that over powered? I wouldn't think so. Would it have use? You betcha. Now, to these other issues: "That being said, I'm not sure how many high levels I know that are too stuipd to be aware of the existence of GWD. I know quite a few FTPers like that, but no PTPers. Somehow I'm making a connection." ... something about not using Argumentum Ad hominem rings a bell. Next time you make a personal attack on me, I'm going to get all your little mistakes, compile them, and then show Tip.it why you can't stay on topic. [hide=For that matter, why isn't everyone, including you, maxed melee?]Lets see, I've set a couple goals. My 1000th level is going to be from runecrafting - that means 70 runecrafting, so until that happens, I'm not going to touch other skills. Right now I've got 90 strength, 65 attack, 51 defense. I like my account how it is, with 90 strength. I didn't want to be restricted to the high level crater only in bounty hunter, so I wasn't going to raise my attack or defense, until I maxed strength. Unfortunately for me, training in F2P is about 4x slower than it is in P2P, when you take into consideration that our equipment stinks compared to P2P (lower hits, lower accuracy), the training areas stink (moss and ice giants aren't as good as your member's only monsters), the training areas are overcrowded (with less than 1/3 the space of members only worlds, F2P's player density is much greater). I don't enjoy range as a spell, and as far as I'm concerned, I've already maxed mage. I might get my account to 99 strength soon, if I could find the spare time between college, my social life, my job, etc. You can tell me til you're blue in the face to "Shut up and just pay the $5/month" - Unfortunately for me, I'm sinking into debt every day, every textbook, and as little as $5 a month is, it isn't worth it. There's also the wasted effort if I get membership. How about you tell Syzygy to pay for members to get faster training?[/hide]

Get 50 RC - go and play the GOP. You'll find more girls there than anywhere else. Probably because its more skiller focused, and not combat related.

[hide=your issues, sir] Issue 1 - I haven't recently made the claim that "PTP mage is underpowered" Show me, where in the past month, that I have said "PTP mage is underpowered". Maybe, just maybe, you could be referring to my "DoubleCast" idea, but that was before the contemporary spellbook, my better solution to F2P magic. Issue 2 - That's great. I'm happy for you, and all you PTPers. So everyone in PTP is exactly like you, and can get 120M out of 4m in 10, 11 days. My rebuttal: Not everyone is maxed in combat, not everyone can use the methods you use simply because combat isn't an option for them as a money maker. Not everyone knows all the different money maker ways for PTP, it's why there's a help and advice forum that's full of, "How do i make a quik 10m?" So cost is an issue for the average joezez_rocks Issue 3 - So how about you make the approximation that all weapons, runes, and arrows are free. How about you make the approximation that you will always average 1/2 your max hit, when you hit. How about you make the approximation that you will always hit 100% of the time with magic, 75% of the time with range, 50% of the time with melee. When I've made certain approximations like this in the past, you told me "Quit pulling numbers out of your behind". Issue 4 - All the levels may scale down, but the max hits don't scale the same way for both combat styles. Consider someone with 70 strength, 106 str bonus (a whip, amulet of strength, rune defender and dragon gloves.) Their respective max hit is 29 (with ultimate strength and super strength potion), and they hit it as fast as anything else. Say they're a pure, level 70. Is the equivalent level 70 in mage going to take them down? If the equivalent level 70 was a pure mage and had 95 magic, maybe. What if they splashed once on their freezing spell? A few flicks of that whip, and they'd be done for. What if our melee level 70 had 95 magic too, so they had great magic defense? What if they used 4 dds? What if, What if, What if? these are irrelevant, because there are too many setups to account for in any given scenario, there are too many possibilities to make a simple statement "magic owns PTP, always, everywhere, no matter what, period". Issue 4, part 2 - If it is so easy to get that much magic experience, how come all members don't have 99 mage? By your logic, it only takes about 60 hours to train mage up to 99, why doesn't everyone do it? Call it, six weeks at two hours a day, 5 days a week. Easy, right? Sign me up. There is some factor that is missing that I don't know, and you're not including. A large majority of RS players enjoy combat, whether its melee, range or mage. If it is soooo easy to make all that GP, and its soooo easy to get 99 mage, why not everyone? But I don't even care about the 4 issues you've outlined, its not that relevant to this particular thread.[/hide] Lets see, I know. Dragon Claws. You've argued it yourself here - "PTP melee has two weapons - whip for non spec, dragon claws for spec." So, say there's another staff that is guaranteed to hit its 1.5x it's maximum when you use its special, but only has +10 magic bonus. Would you use it for anything other than it's special? Did that boil down to one of your two situations? Focusing on non-combat situations: What about a staff that has a particularly good bonus on slayer monsters, and makes slayer give an overall 30% faster experience? Oh, and it doesn't give any stat bonuses, just the added slayer xp. Will people use it? Does it further off balance the combat triangle? How about a recent example, the Omni-staff that came out with GOP. Is it ever used for combat? No. Is it worthless? No, it allows you to wield all the tiara's into one, and gives you a free head space for your costume. I could brainstorm many more examples of things that don't fit into your two categories, but I'm not going to do it because its a waste of time. The whole idea behind a "Combat Triangle" is that Paper>rock>scissors>paper, and that no one style should stand out above the others. I for one, would appreciate a variety of magical implements, be it wands, orbs, rings or rabbits. No, they might not be as good as Zuriel's staff, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will never be used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuiXXQOkgxo quit being a jerk about this. There is an advert, it goes out of the box, and if you don't believe us, check the vid. jerks.