sees_all1

[sarcasm] Thanks mr. point keeper, I'll keep that in mind next time I disagree with him. Oh, and mad props to having an opinion of your own.[/sarcasm] Compfreak, maybe if you've never seen it on video, and most people haven't mastered it, then you're one in a hundred million able to pull off things most other scapers can't. This means when you tell us that magic is over-powered, it's because you're talking about your experience which isn't very common place, and when other people talk about how magic is under-powered, its because their experience hasn't been as good as yours. Oh, and I've learned most of this stuff from reading your arguments on other threads. "It requires skill, levels, money, and a passion for PVP." That's all I needed to hear, enough said. Good argument, looking forward to the next.

Err, what? First you say people are packed in so thick you'll never get a spot to yourself, then you say they're so spread out you don't want to spend 30 minutes looking for a PK. For the record, it's where I PK, and neither of them are true. Plenty of people in wildy, training or PKing training or simply PKing. The chances of getting a kill in a crowded area with any combat style are essentially nil, people just hit a teletab or run. Sorry, you misunderstood me, or I wasn't clear enough in expressing myself. The vast majority of people are packed into a small area of a (relatively speaking) small world. There are other places you can go to look in hopes of a 1v1 with no PJers, but the chances of finding someone your level are much slimmer than if you stick to Varrock or Lumbridge. If you do go somewhere else, not in varrock or lumbridge, it'll take about 30 minutes to find someone your level. I was guesstimating the percentages, but you get the idea. So make up your mind. Do you want a more powerful spell\staff\effect that further unbalances magic, or a weaker version that will never be used. Once you pick one out I can start pointing out flaws. It can't be similar in strength to what there is now? Or a tad stronger but costs much much more? Or stronger in some fashion and weaker in others (Has great melee defense but negative melee attack, range attack/defense, and somewhat neutral mage attack/defense). Or it hits a bit harder but hits less often (time, or accuracy)?

And the person would be animated like they were slipping backwards, sort of like the skating on ice in the last xmas event. I don't think difficulty of coding should be your reason for not wanting something... if you think the spells are too weak, or too powerful, I think that would be a better reason. Thanks for the support though.

Oh. I didn't realize this was a problem specific to mage. What effect is it that prevents melee and range from this horrific circumstance? Nothing really, except usually its when the player takes off and you're chasing after them. You know how mage is, where they stop, cast the spell, lag a little, and catch back up? Its very easy for a melee to tag onto the mage, and prevent them from running. I would point you to F2P Bounty Hunter, but its closed. You'd get instances where someone with no armour, nothing, would run into the crator. Then all the high levels would chase after them - if someone was chasing and hitting at the same time, usually another person would try to "steal" the kill by first hitting the chaser, binding the runner, and then hitting the runner. I've found that Range doesn't have this as much, maybe its because people don't seem to care about rangers, or in F2P a maxed tank in full rune can't be touched. Problem is that when you want a kill, you want a kill. I don't want to spend 30 minutes waiting for someone in the deep wilderness, chances are no one is going to come anyway. It leaves (in my estimate) 75% of the players stretched between Varrock and Lumbridge, with the other 10% being clans in falador, the barbarian village. Another 10% are the brave few to venture into the wilderness, and even then most of them are by varrock in a thin band between the ditch to the FoG entrance to the Hill Giants. The last bit I didn't account for are the skillers, scattered throughout various Yews, and the people training in Karamja. Let me make it clear - I understand if you use a certain set/order of ancient spells in P2P, you'll do well when you're PKing. I also understand that you'll also do better off if you hybrid - surprise is a key element that individual classes alone cannot get you. I'll also be the first to tell you that I'm not a member, and I don't even want to pretend to know everything about member's only content. I also believe that if you add more magic weapons (not spells, weapons), the variety will make it more interesting, even if all you ever see during PVP are the same magic weapons, which is why I support the basic concept, but not the OP's words.

There are two people by you, A and B. You hit A all you want, but as soon as B steps in and "PJs", you can't hit A. You can hit B all you want, but as soon as A steps in, you can't hit B. Never had that happen to you? Its a major problem in F2P, even with low level mages. Glad I could clear that up. Oh, and in F2P PVP - the world is a small percentage of the size of members, yet they still cram in ~1800 people in there. There are no perfect mage spots in F2P, and what I described is a common occurrence.

Hmmmm - this mean that TIF won't get new users with 1 total post count from their rant?

No, its the attacking character has defensive mode on, and the character sitting there has accurate, to make up for this. I remembered something along these lines when I started the first test - to try and eliminate confounding variables (and eliminating the need to create 100 level 3 accounts to get good data). Interesting... I'll have to check this out. Thanks for the input.

Come to think of it, I've NEVER been PJed when fighting with mage in my usual spots. It's very rare to see more then one person at a time. Again, your completely missing the point of what mage is. Armor provides the vast majority of the boost - you could introduce a powerful spell with -50 magic attack, and it would be horrendously overpowered. Don't try and use magic bonus to compensate for a staff, because the staff bonus is only a tiny part of overall magic accuracy. So, let us take what is said here, and apply it to the OP - In F2P, mage only has 1 type of staff, and 2 types of spell (fire blast, teleblock. Bind is too worthless to even waste nats on). If there was another weapon that was introduced for both F2P and P2P, that wasn't as strong as your Zuriel's staff, wasn't as strong as the other awesome staffs that you use, BUT the level requirements were different, would it still be used? Yes, it would, in F2P, and maybe lower leveled mages in P2P. I suggest you create a new account, get it's combat level to 65 (85 mage, 60 HP, 15 def, 45 prayer), and then try to PK with it in F2P worlds. Hint: You'll get piled by everyone, your pathetic F2P combat robes won't help you fend off melee, and you'll be broke from lousy drops even if you do manage to kill people. You could also try to PK with another level 100 account, make a mage tank in P2P. You'll have a much better chance of getting PJed than if you were a level 135+ -because there are more people in your combat range who are willing to take you on. But you wouldn't know that because you PK with your maxed account, in areas that aren't highly trafficked (1 person at a time?). Your certainly welcome to do that. Unfortunately, Ad Hominem applies quite nicely in this situation - namely that I'm accusing you of knowing nothing about members because your FTP. Unfortunately, I'm also right. I'm saying you do not understand why magic needs to be updated so badly for F2P. You don't deal with PJing, you don't deal with lousy bonuses and lousier spells. Unfortunately, the OP deals with BOTH F2P and P2P mage, and when you say "Magic needs to be nerfed before it can receive an update" reflects the fact that all you're thinking about is new high level content that is stronger than what there currently is. It doesn't have to be a higher level, it doesn't have to be stronger - it can be different.

The low P-value (significant at the alpha = 0.01 level!) indicates that the sample size is already large enough and that the chance of getting the observed differences is low if all hits were equally likely. If I repeated the experiment and found that different numbers occurred more/less often, that would suggest that the unbalanced distribution was due to random chance alone and that either the previous P-value was a fluke or that the test assumptions were violated (namely, whether the sample can be treated as an SRS.) I was using defense mode. Sorry to bug you again, but did you include the last hit on each soldier?

I don't know, something I've read somewhere. Maybe its "A skilled ranger is also able to take down a mage easily" or "Rangers have had a huge advantage over the combat triangle" You know... the combat triangle, with Mage, Melee and Range? Do you have a problem arguing that high level mage combos are over powered, the darkbow spec is overpowered, and that the dclaw spec is over powered -- all in different forums at different times? Tell me, is hitting 60 with rune crossbows over powered? Or a 48/48 spec with a dark bow? How about a few DDS for 100+ damage, or 2 dclaw specs for 100+ damage? Are those all overpowered? I don't like arguing things I'm not familiar with, in case you haven't realized this by now. It takes more time and effort for me to look up these numbers than I care for. Its why I'm so open to suggestions in my Contemporary Spellbook idea, especially when it comes to members content. Here's the other thing. Everything you've talked about has been in your perfect world, 1v1 situation with no PJers. Add in the PJer element, and mage gets weaker and weaker. So, what if they introduced a new magical wand, that is much weaker than zuriel's staff, and it only lets the player that you're attacking fight back, i.e. no pjers. Is that over powered? I wouldn't think so. Would it have use? You betcha. Now, to these other issues: "That being said, I'm not sure how many high levels I know that are too stuipd to be aware of the existence of GWD. I know quite a few FTPers like that, but no PTPers. Somehow I'm making a connection." ... something about not using Argumentum Ad hominem rings a bell. Next time you make a personal attack on me, I'm going to get all your little mistakes, compile them, and then show Tip.it why you can't stay on topic. [hide=For that matter, why isn't everyone, including you, maxed melee?]Lets see, I've set a couple goals. My 1000th level is going to be from runecrafting - that means 70 runecrafting, so until that happens, I'm not going to touch other skills. Right now I've got 90 strength, 65 attack, 51 defense. I like my account how it is, with 90 strength. I didn't want to be restricted to the high level crater only in bounty hunter, so I wasn't going to raise my attack or defense, until I maxed strength. Unfortunately for me, training in F2P is about 4x slower than it is in P2P, when you take into consideration that our equipment stinks compared to P2P (lower hits, lower accuracy), the training areas stink (moss and ice giants aren't as good as your member's only monsters), the training areas are overcrowded (with less than 1/3 the space of members only worlds, F2P's player density is much greater). I don't enjoy range as a spell, and as far as I'm concerned, I've already maxed mage. I might get my account to 99 strength soon, if I could find the spare time between college, my social life, my job, etc. You can tell me til you're blue in the face to "Shut up and just pay the $5/month" - Unfortunately for me, I'm sinking into debt every day, every textbook, and as little as $5 a month is, it isn't worth it. There's also the wasted effort if I get membership. How about you tell Syzygy to pay for members to get faster training?[/hide]

Get 50 RC - go and play the GOP. You'll find more girls there than anywhere else. Probably because its more skiller focused, and not combat related.

[hide=your issues, sir] Issue 1 - I haven't recently made the claim that "PTP mage is underpowered" Show me, where in the past month, that I have said "PTP mage is underpowered". Maybe, just maybe, you could be referring to my "DoubleCast" idea, but that was before the contemporary spellbook, my better solution to F2P magic. Issue 2 - That's great. I'm happy for you, and all you PTPers. So everyone in PTP is exactly like you, and can get 120M out of 4m in 10, 11 days. My rebuttal: Not everyone is maxed in combat, not everyone can use the methods you use simply because combat isn't an option for them as a money maker. Not everyone knows all the different money maker ways for PTP, it's why there's a help and advice forum that's full of, "How do i make a quik 10m?" So cost is an issue for the average joezez_rocks Issue 3 - So how about you make the approximation that all weapons, runes, and arrows are free. How about you make the approximation that you will always average 1/2 your max hit, when you hit. How about you make the approximation that you will always hit 100% of the time with magic, 75% of the time with range, 50% of the time with melee. When I've made certain approximations like this in the past, you told me "Quit pulling numbers out of your behind". Issue 4 - All the levels may scale down, but the max hits don't scale the same way for both combat styles. Consider someone with 70 strength, 106 str bonus (a whip, amulet of strength, rune defender and dragon gloves.) Their respective max hit is 29 (with ultimate strength and super strength potion), and they hit it as fast as anything else. Say they're a pure, level 70. Is the equivalent level 70 in mage going to take them down? If the equivalent level 70 was a pure mage and had 95 magic, maybe. What if they splashed once on their freezing spell? A few flicks of that whip, and they'd be done for. What if our melee level 70 had 95 magic too, so they had great magic defense? What if they used 4 dds? What if, What if, What if? these are irrelevant, because there are too many setups to account for in any given scenario, there are too many possibilities to make a simple statement "magic owns PTP, always, everywhere, no matter what, period". Issue 4, part 2 - If it is so easy to get that much magic experience, how come all members don't have 99 mage? By your logic, it only takes about 60 hours to train mage up to 99, why doesn't everyone do it? Call it, six weeks at two hours a day, 5 days a week. Easy, right? Sign me up. There is some factor that is missing that I don't know, and you're not including. A large majority of RS players enjoy combat, whether its melee, range or mage. If it is soooo easy to make all that GP, and its soooo easy to get 99 mage, why not everyone? But I don't even care about the 4 issues you've outlined, its not that relevant to this particular thread.[/hide] Lets see, I know. Dragon Claws. You've argued it yourself here - "PTP melee has two weapons - whip for non spec, dragon claws for spec." So, say there's another staff that is guaranteed to hit its 1.5x it's maximum when you use its special, but only has +10 magic bonus. Would you use it for anything other than it's special? Did that boil down to one of your two situations? Focusing on non-combat situations: What about a staff that has a particularly good bonus on slayer monsters, and makes slayer give an overall 30% faster experience? Oh, and it doesn't give any stat bonuses, just the added slayer xp. Will people use it? Does it further off balance the combat triangle? How about a recent example, the Omni-staff that came out with GOP. Is it ever used for combat? No. Is it worthless? No, it allows you to wield all the tiara's into one, and gives you a free head space for your costume. I could brainstorm many more examples of things that don't fit into your two categories, but I'm not going to do it because its a waste of time. The whole idea behind a "Combat Triangle" is that Paper>rock>scissors>paper, and that no one style should stand out above the others. I for one, would appreciate a variety of magical implements, be it wands, orbs, rings or rabbits. No, they might not be as good as Zuriel's staff, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will never be used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuiXXQOkgxo quit being a jerk about this. There is an advert, it goes out of the box, and if you don't believe us, check the vid. jerks.

I put in 2 cents, you automatically flame me, and then basically agree with me. Sorry if I didn't read pages 2/3, I've read the OP and I see you disagreeing with one of your standard "Mage is too powerful..." blah blah blah. So, from now on do you want me to call you out every time you don't thoroughly read something? It won't be too difficult, I can think of about 3 instances off the top of my head, and if I dig a little deeper I could list them all right here and make them highly visable. Don't be a hypocrite. You have this attitude that everyone is automagically wrong just because they disagree with you, no matter how small the difference of opinion, and even if they mostly agree with you they're still wrong. And every time you challenge us to "back it up" with fact, when you reference your "thousands of hours of combat experience" - you haven't given us proof of anything, you posting something doesn't make it right. When you say "magic is overpowered, it doesn't need any upgrades" - what are you referencing? The fact that at 99 magic you can own virtually anyone, when you use a prescribed set of spells in an exact manner? Or is it the fact that at level 60 you can start hitting 30's, but only if you're a member, and only if you're using arena spells? Back to the OP - What's wrong with having a little variety in a combat style? The OP has a point, although the things he says to back it up aren't very intelligent. Melee has: 4 godswords, the whip, the dd, the scimitar, dharok's, etc, and each has a special ability. Range has: rune crossbows, dark bow, crystal bow, cannon, etc. Dbow has a special. Mage has: Staffs (elemental, battle, zuriel, etc.), wands. No "special" per se. Could there be another magic weapon, that isn't stronger than what there currently is? Could it have a special attack, and not upset whatever balance there is? Your complete argument is "No magic already is too powerful". Maybe at level 99, when you can accurately do the combo you described, and when you have 400 mil that you can toss around. 99% of the RS population doesn't have 99 magic, and even fewer don't have 400 mil. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander - what I'm saying is just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else. Do you have any empathy at all? Can you put yourself in anyone else's shoes and understand their point of view? I haven't seen you do this, and when debating its crucial to see eye to eye with the other person instead of - "They're wrong, I'm going to prove them wrong." When you do this, you often miss the point they're trying to make, and instead you just get hung up on the stupid details.

Thank you for proving my point. Magic is expensive, you know this and you're not denying it.

[hide=image][/hide] Glad to know I'm not the only person getting this. I how F2P never has to deal with these ads in game...

Most people can't afford 760k for a staff that only lasts 1 hour, or pay upwards of 2.3k per cast (call it 1+mil/hour of combat). As much as P2P mage owns, its cost of use is what hinders most people from using it.

[hide=image][/hide] When I first saw this, I was like, wtf. Finally was able to get a screenshot of it - an advertisement out of the advert box. Seriously, this is freaking annoying, and needs to stop. The only other time I've seen one of these ads was in yahoo's launchcast homepage. Makes me wonder if there will ever be a point when I'm playing RS F2P and an advert covers the game screen. If I ever get that, I'm going to remove the exception from ABP to include RS.

or you could do an internet search for RS GP CHEAP or something similar - and then contact the webmasters and give them the survey. I think you'd generate better responses.

There are 4 spells sort of like this: Thicken Skin .... 52 ..... 2 N, 2 M ........ F . Boosts or heals HP by 8 (does not stack), ..................................................minimum 10 minutes between casts. Sheath .......... 69 ..... 2 N, 2 Ch, 2 M .. P . Boosts or heals HP by 12 (does not stack), ..................................................requires 10 minutes between casts. Super Sheath .... 84 ..... 3 N, 4 S, 20 M . P . Boosts or heals HP by 16 (does not stack), ..................................................requires 10 minutes before casting again. Sheath Other .... 97 ..... 4 N, 4 S ........ P . Boosts or Heals another's HP by 16 (can not stack) So every 10 minutes, a P2Per can heal up to 36, or 20 and boost their hp by 16. If they have a friend, then it would be 52 healing or 36 healing and 16 boost. (Although this method is costly)

Once again, sorry about the image. photobucket resized it so it wasn't visible, and this other site is being a bit of a [bleep]. You could've copied and pasted whats there into your favorite text editor. I could change Awareness to a P2P spell, as some other people were having problems with it. Seems that P2P's ancients are about 1.5x the power of the pulse spells here, and they have effects built in that make them nearly unstoppable. This spellbook wasn't meant to be as powerful as ancients, but it wasn't meant to stink as a combat spellbook either. With Push, Shove - You can cast these spells on anyone, even the person who isn't hitting you. They get knocked back up to the spell's respective max, and it takes a certain amount of time before they're allowed to run back towards you. Cement and Bond affect a large area, anyone in the 5x5 or 7x7 from the person who is cast on (they're in the middle) is affected. Flak Blast - In a 1v1 combat area, everyone who is within your level, in a n by n box around you gets knocked back up to 9 spaces, but only the person who most recently hit you is affected by the "up to 20" damage it does. If there is no "most recent hit" in the area, the person closest to your combat level (provided they're in the tolerance) - and if two people are the same combat level, its random. In a multi combat area - everyone within your level gets hit in the box around you. Disport- Say my push and shove spells aren't as effective on a certain individual as I'd like them to be. I can't hold them at a range and hit them at the same time. In a desperate attempt, I myself will teleport away, hit and repeat. Or, say that my opponent is running away and I get stuck behind a wall. Its a gamble, but disport might just put me next to them. Or, there's a ditch or fence, and my opponent is on the same side. Disport, and perhaps I'll be on the other side? Disport Opponent- Say I've got my opponent on the ropes, and they're starting to run. I can cement them, but another person might try and PJ to save my opponent. I cast Disport Opponent on them, and they're far enough that I can cast another spell on my opponent now. It could also trap them behind a fence or ditch as I was describing with disport. Its a more interesting version of push/shove. I guess PJers could use Disport Opponent on you after you've defeated your opponent, but keep in mind that it only moves you up to 30 spaces away - which is about maybe half a minimap. 30 spaces isn't enough to keep you from getting your loot. I might add in a 30 - 60 second limit on how many times it can be cast on one person.

I remember not so long ago that laws cost 500-1k each, depending on the quantity you would buy. Now, not so much. Praise only makes prayer potions "useless" for people with magic over 88 - so lower level people would still need prayer pots.

So, people will realize that this spell is better than prayer potions. So - law runes go up a little bit, or prayer potions go down a little bit. Prices are not fixed here, there is still an economy. Things will reach an equilibrium so that "praise" will equal prayer pots in the long run. Help me out with this one? Could you explain it with more examples? Give me 10 minutes, and I can write a program in Java that will do the same thing as dump load, without a cosmic rune, in less time. Give me an hour and I can perfect it to be almos untraceable by Jagex's macro detection software. The only thing stopping me is because it would cheapen my efforts thus far, and I don't want to risk my account getting banned. Macroers right now aren't concerned about getting their accounts banned, and it isn't difficult to do a "dump load". It'll just make it easier for legit power miners. ... that goes both ways. If you're good at hiding, you can get 2k+ charges with a level 20 with 10 defense against some of the best players on crowded worlds. I'm not too concerned about this and FoG. How? Do I seriously need to tick off the spells for you? -Push -Disport -Shove -Debase -Disport Opponent -Cement -Blackout -Bond -Flak Blast Like... uhh... lunar spellbook? - Why do we need super alchemy? Is it absolutely necessary to mess up the price of every single item in the game? - Spells shouldn't require hundreds of runes. Replace them with more expensive types. - What's the point of random teleports? Can you use them to teleport through walls? (If yes, Taverly dungeon -> Entrana dungeon?) -No, I thought this one would look more like the normal spellbook. Not all combat, not all non-combat. -Super alchemy won't "mess up the price of all items" - just the "expensive" ones that are near their minimum price (i.e. useless except to alch). But, since the price is ultimately controlled by the players, these items would change to reflect their new super alch prices, and the profit margins would be slim to none in the long run. Short run, there would be profit to be made for some items. -The spells that require "hundreds of runes" - Hurricane, Awareness, and Flak Blast. Awareness is a F2P spell, so using "more expensive runes" is out. Flak Blast and Hurricane are two super-powerful spells, and so the 100's of runes required make the cost that much more, and it attempts to keep the price of runes relatively stable. -Random Teleport spells are part of the thing that address your first concern - how does it prevent pjers? A random teleport might put you in a room, but it wouldn't move you to another area (i.e. casting random teleport by al kharid and lumbridge would never get you past the gate, would never get you into the mining guild, would never get you to the nature spawn in the wildy, would never put you in lava or water).

I know that - so there's something going on underneath. Let's try to build up the understanding before trying to explain everything at once. I'll definitely take your data into consideration further down the line.

I think people are more likely to write a bot now to help themselves mine than they would if there was a spell that automatically did that for them: for the simple purpose to save your wrists. Its not very difficult to write a program that quickly moves back and forth, left clicking and right clicking and such, its way all the way though 27 different ores, compared to completing randoms or mining at the correct times. Heck, I see that spell helping honest miner's wrists much more than it would help someone programming a bot. As for super fuse and "the economy", lets take a look at the numbers. 2x nature rune: ~440 gp 2x cosmic rune: ~300 gp ignoring fire runes, this spell costs 740gp to cast iron bar - 225 ea, iron ore 95 gp. So 95+740 > 225*2 - doesn't change anything steel bar - 620 ea, 1 coal 180 gp. So 180+95+740 > 620 - doesn't change anything mithril bar - 1160 ea, 1 mith 247 gp. So 247+2*180+740 > 1160 - doesn't change anything addy bar - 2360 ea, 1 addy 1070 gp. So 1070 + 3*180 + 740 = 2350 < 2360 by 10.... rune bar - 17.3k ea, 1 runite 15.6k. So 15600 + 4*180 + 740 = 17060 < 17300 by 240... So, super fuse screws up the economy by 10 gp every time its cast on addy, and 240 every time its cast on rune. Wait a second - are the prices fixed? No, dolt. They're not fixed. So that 240 gp imbalance would be closed relatively soon, because people would realize that its worth it to cast super fuse on runite ore... they would start doing it, demand for runite ore would go up (along with the price), supply of rune bars would go up (more people making them) so the price would go down. And it requires 88 magic... Further more, If you weren't going to use magic as your primary attack method, you'd have to bring both air and earth runes (so 3 spaces, and closer to 130+160+1500 = 1790 cost) or risk a staff that's worth 1m. I think its balanced.