sees_all1

I put in 2 cents, you automatically flame me, and then basically agree with me. Sorry if I didn't read pages 2/3, I've read the OP and I see you disagreeing with one of your standard "Mage is too powerful..." blah blah blah. So, from now on do you want me to call you out every time you don't thoroughly read something? It won't be too difficult, I can think of about 3 instances off the top of my head, and if I dig a little deeper I could list them all right here and make them highly visable. Don't be a hypocrite. You have this attitude that everyone is automagically wrong just because they disagree with you, no matter how small the difference of opinion, and even if they mostly agree with you they're still wrong. And every time you challenge us to "back it up" with fact, when you reference your "thousands of hours of combat experience" - you haven't given us proof of anything, you posting something doesn't make it right. When you say "magic is overpowered, it doesn't need any upgrades" - what are you referencing? The fact that at 99 magic you can own virtually anyone, when you use a prescribed set of spells in an exact manner? Or is it the fact that at level 60 you can start hitting 30's, but only if you're a member, and only if you're using arena spells? Back to the OP - What's wrong with having a little variety in a combat style? The OP has a point, although the things he says to back it up aren't very intelligent. Melee has: 4 godswords, the whip, the dd, the scimitar, dharok's, etc, and each has a special ability. Range has: rune crossbows, dark bow, crystal bow, cannon, etc. Dbow has a special. Mage has: Staffs (elemental, battle, zuriel, etc.), wands. No "special" per se. Could there be another magic weapon, that isn't stronger than what there currently is? Could it have a special attack, and not upset whatever balance there is? Your complete argument is "No magic already is too powerful". Maybe at level 99, when you can accurately do the combo you described, and when you have 400 mil that you can toss around. 99% of the RS population doesn't have 99 magic, and even fewer don't have 400 mil. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander - what I'm saying is just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else. Do you have any empathy at all? Can you put yourself in anyone else's shoes and understand their point of view? I haven't seen you do this, and when debating its crucial to see eye to eye with the other person instead of - "They're wrong, I'm going to prove them wrong." When you do this, you often miss the point they're trying to make, and instead you just get hung up on the stupid details.

Thank you for proving my point. Magic is expensive, you know this and you're not denying it.

[hide=image][/hide] Glad to know I'm not the only person getting this. I how F2P never has to deal with these ads in game...

Most people can't afford 760k for a staff that only lasts 1 hour, or pay upwards of 2.3k per cast (call it 1+mil/hour of combat). As much as P2P mage owns, its cost of use is what hinders most people from using it.

[hide=image][/hide] When I first saw this, I was like, wtf. Finally was able to get a screenshot of it - an advertisement out of the advert box. Seriously, this is freaking annoying, and needs to stop. The only other time I've seen one of these ads was in yahoo's launchcast homepage. Makes me wonder if there will ever be a point when I'm playing RS F2P and an advert covers the game screen. If I ever get that, I'm going to remove the exception from ABP to include RS.

or you could do an internet search for RS GP CHEAP or something similar - and then contact the webmasters and give them the survey. I think you'd generate better responses.

There are 4 spells sort of like this: Thicken Skin .... 52 ..... 2 N, 2 M ........ F . Boosts or heals HP by 8 (does not stack), ..................................................minimum 10 minutes between casts. Sheath .......... 69 ..... 2 N, 2 Ch, 2 M .. P . Boosts or heals HP by 12 (does not stack), ..................................................requires 10 minutes between casts. Super Sheath .... 84 ..... 3 N, 4 S, 20 M . P . Boosts or heals HP by 16 (does not stack), ..................................................requires 10 minutes before casting again. Sheath Other .... 97 ..... 4 N, 4 S ........ P . Boosts or Heals another's HP by 16 (can not stack) So every 10 minutes, a P2Per can heal up to 36, or 20 and boost their hp by 16. If they have a friend, then it would be 52 healing or 36 healing and 16 boost. (Although this method is costly)

Once again, sorry about the image. photobucket resized it so it wasn't visible, and this other site is being a bit of a [bleep]. You could've copied and pasted whats there into your favorite text editor. I could change Awareness to a P2P spell, as some other people were having problems with it. Seems that P2P's ancients are about 1.5x the power of the pulse spells here, and they have effects built in that make them nearly unstoppable. This spellbook wasn't meant to be as powerful as ancients, but it wasn't meant to stink as a combat spellbook either. With Push, Shove - You can cast these spells on anyone, even the person who isn't hitting you. They get knocked back up to the spell's respective max, and it takes a certain amount of time before they're allowed to run back towards you. Cement and Bond affect a large area, anyone in the 5x5 or 7x7 from the person who is cast on (they're in the middle) is affected. Flak Blast - In a 1v1 combat area, everyone who is within your level, in a n by n box around you gets knocked back up to 9 spaces, but only the person who most recently hit you is affected by the "up to 20" damage it does. If there is no "most recent hit" in the area, the person closest to your combat level (provided they're in the tolerance) - and if two people are the same combat level, its random. In a multi combat area - everyone within your level gets hit in the box around you. Disport- Say my push and shove spells aren't as effective on a certain individual as I'd like them to be. I can't hold them at a range and hit them at the same time. In a desperate attempt, I myself will teleport away, hit and repeat. Or, say that my opponent is running away and I get stuck behind a wall. Its a gamble, but disport might just put me next to them. Or, there's a ditch or fence, and my opponent is on the same side. Disport, and perhaps I'll be on the other side? Disport Opponent- Say I've got my opponent on the ropes, and they're starting to run. I can cement them, but another person might try and PJ to save my opponent. I cast Disport Opponent on them, and they're far enough that I can cast another spell on my opponent now. It could also trap them behind a fence or ditch as I was describing with disport. Its a more interesting version of push/shove. I guess PJers could use Disport Opponent on you after you've defeated your opponent, but keep in mind that it only moves you up to 30 spaces away - which is about maybe half a minimap. 30 spaces isn't enough to keep you from getting your loot. I might add in a 30 - 60 second limit on how many times it can be cast on one person.

I remember not so long ago that laws cost 500-1k each, depending on the quantity you would buy. Now, not so much. Praise only makes prayer potions "useless" for people with magic over 88 - so lower level people would still need prayer pots.

So, people will realize that this spell is better than prayer potions. So - law runes go up a little bit, or prayer potions go down a little bit. Prices are not fixed here, there is still an economy. Things will reach an equilibrium so that "praise" will equal prayer pots in the long run. Help me out with this one? Could you explain it with more examples? Give me 10 minutes, and I can write a program in Java that will do the same thing as dump load, without a cosmic rune, in less time. Give me an hour and I can perfect it to be almos untraceable by Jagex's macro detection software. The only thing stopping me is because it would cheapen my efforts thus far, and I don't want to risk my account getting banned. Macroers right now aren't concerned about getting their accounts banned, and it isn't difficult to do a "dump load". It'll just make it easier for legit power miners. ... that goes both ways. If you're good at hiding, you can get 2k+ charges with a level 20 with 10 defense against some of the best players on crowded worlds. I'm not too concerned about this and FoG. How? Do I seriously need to tick off the spells for you? -Push -Disport -Shove -Debase -Disport Opponent -Cement -Blackout -Bond -Flak Blast Like... uhh... lunar spellbook? - Why do we need super alchemy? Is it absolutely necessary to mess up the price of every single item in the game? - Spells shouldn't require hundreds of runes. Replace them with more expensive types. - What's the point of random teleports? Can you use them to teleport through walls? (If yes, Taverly dungeon -> Entrana dungeon?) -No, I thought this one would look more like the normal spellbook. Not all combat, not all non-combat. -Super alchemy won't "mess up the price of all items" - just the "expensive" ones that are near their minimum price (i.e. useless except to alch). But, since the price is ultimately controlled by the players, these items would change to reflect their new super alch prices, and the profit margins would be slim to none in the long run. Short run, there would be profit to be made for some items. -The spells that require "hundreds of runes" - Hurricane, Awareness, and Flak Blast. Awareness is a F2P spell, so using "more expensive runes" is out. Flak Blast and Hurricane are two super-powerful spells, and so the 100's of runes required make the cost that much more, and it attempts to keep the price of runes relatively stable. -Random Teleport spells are part of the thing that address your first concern - how does it prevent pjers? A random teleport might put you in a room, but it wouldn't move you to another area (i.e. casting random teleport by al kharid and lumbridge would never get you past the gate, would never get you into the mining guild, would never get you to the nature spawn in the wildy, would never put you in lava or water).

I know that - so there's something going on underneath. Let's try to build up the understanding before trying to explain everything at once. I'll definitely take your data into consideration further down the line.

I think people are more likely to write a bot now to help themselves mine than they would if there was a spell that automatically did that for them: for the simple purpose to save your wrists. Its not very difficult to write a program that quickly moves back and forth, left clicking and right clicking and such, its way all the way though 27 different ores, compared to completing randoms or mining at the correct times. Heck, I see that spell helping honest miner's wrists much more than it would help someone programming a bot. As for super fuse and "the economy", lets take a look at the numbers. 2x nature rune: ~440 gp 2x cosmic rune: ~300 gp ignoring fire runes, this spell costs 740gp to cast iron bar - 225 ea, iron ore 95 gp. So 95+740 > 225*2 - doesn't change anything steel bar - 620 ea, 1 coal 180 gp. So 180+95+740 > 620 - doesn't change anything mithril bar - 1160 ea, 1 mith 247 gp. So 247+2*180+740 > 1160 - doesn't change anything addy bar - 2360 ea, 1 addy 1070 gp. So 1070 + 3*180 + 740 = 2350 < 2360 by 10.... rune bar - 17.3k ea, 1 runite 15.6k. So 15600 + 4*180 + 740 = 17060 < 17300 by 240... So, super fuse screws up the economy by 10 gp every time its cast on addy, and 240 every time its cast on rune. Wait a second - are the prices fixed? No, dolt. They're not fixed. So that 240 gp imbalance would be closed relatively soon, because people would realize that its worth it to cast super fuse on runite ore... they would start doing it, demand for runite ore would go up (along with the price), supply of rune bars would go up (more people making them) so the price would go down. And it requires 88 magic... Further more, If you weren't going to use magic as your primary attack method, you'd have to bring both air and earth runes (so 3 spaces, and closer to 130+160+1500 = 1790 cost) or risk a staff that's worth 1m. I think its balanced.

I'd like to see a few more trials, but I don't want to waste your time. I'm not to the hit values yet, I'm still trying to nail down the probability of a hit, based on strength, attack, and opponents defense. However, If my next few tests go as predicted, I can move on to more advanced things, such as that setup. I'm betting if you conducted the test again, you'd get different results (duh), as in different numbers receiving different proportions. Just curious, what style were you using?

So, a prayer potion costs 2050, and restores from 7 to 31 Prayer points.... versus this spell which costs 1500 per cast, and restores up to 15? I don't think that ruins the balance.

How many zeros did you hit? This is relevant because: -1/16 of your hits should have been naturally zero (due to the strength component) -Some (large) proportion of zeros should have been from failing attacks -If you knew the proportion of zeros you should have hit, and recorded those too, your x^2 GOF test would have different results. I'm not saying your data is invalid, or conclusion is definitely incorrect, there are just a few confounding variables that you haven't taken into account. I was brainstorming today as to why the 0/1 defense didn't make sense, and what the underlying reasoning could be. What if, the number they use to calculate defense is defense level, and the number they use to calculate attack is just attack. So, you'd get a random double that's [0, 1), and multiply it by those integers. You'd never really get 1, but they could always round down defense, and always round up attack to the nearest integer. Any numbers that tied, I.E. 0 for attack vs. 0 for defense, would result in no hit. This would make sense because you'd have 4 different available outcomes: 1/2 the time you wouldn't hit, and of the other 1/2, 1/2 of that time your hit would naturally be zero. This would explain why having 0 defense versus 1 defense wouldn't make any difference. -sees

Look through the eyes of the credit card companies: Customer says - My credit card number was stolen. I didn't buy all this. Credit Card Company says - hey, look it, you're an idiot, but because I can get 21% interest off you, I'll refund you the money, and go beating around the bushes for it. Credit Card Company: .... OOOO, there's a familiar trend going on, 20% of stolen credit cards are going to buy stuff from this company, called Jagex. Lets see, if Jagex doesn't refund me my money, I'm not going to let my credit cards purchase stuff from them, because it's all a loss for me. Credit Card Companies To jagex: Give me my money, or else you'll lose your ability to accept payment from credit cards. Jagex: WTFOMG stupid players, cheating, violating our Terms and Conditions, getting owned, and now we have to pay for it. Seriously, noobs. Alright, here's your stupid money, but this isn't going to happen again. What's the source of the credit card fraud? The wilderness! If we completely crash RWT, then we won't be put in this situation again. Jagex - screw you guys, i'm taking away RWT because I can't trust you players with it. Players - well, I didn't like grinding or getting achievements anyway, I'm going to post a rant on a forum, to tell you exactly how angry I am. 1 year later - the rule breakers aren't here, but jagex is. What does that tell you?

I've just completed another 3 tests, and updated the OP to reflect this. Not sure if I want to keep beating a dead horse, I suppose I can do another 7 or so. Anyhow, each value is remarkably close to .75, the value I estimated. I just spat the numbers into a calculator, and the z-value that came up was .459. Which means that we cannot be sure that the data that I got was different than the expected value. Unless someone does more tests and comes up with a significantly different proportion, I'm happy with the results. So, the answer to the first test: What is the probability of hitting on a character with 1 defense, with 1 attack, 1 strength, and no bonuses? The answer: you can expect to hit on average 1 out of every 4 hits. About 1000 hits has shown this to be quite accurate. Now its on to the next test. What is the probability of hitting on a character after casting curse, when their defense is lowered to 0? I've just run some tests, and the results are as follows: Test 1: 29 miss, 12 hit Test 2: 31 miss, 11 hit Test 3: 42 miss, 12 hit This data indicates that your defense can't go lower than 1, or that curse only lowers your defense by 5%. To determine if it is actually 5%, the number of tests I'd have to run would be much more than I did for the first question. Help! Is there any way to lower your defense in F2P?

Lets first figure out if its a straight scale with various attack/defense levels, and then we'll start looking at atk/def bonuses.

Can't buy RC, right? I'll go with that.

That isn't what I'm testing now - I don't care about the number you hit. If I did, the strength level I would be testing would be higher, say 10, or 20, or 90. Start at the beginning, make few assumptions, prove the assumptions, and then use what you know to find the other things. I haven't gotten to the hit hypothesis, and I'm not going to argue it either way until I have statistics to back it up. I will get there eventually, but until I do, quit nitpicking about stuff I may or may not do in the future.

http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/ <- this one is the most recent latest and greatest... and guess what, its exactly the same! And its not an operating system, its the API for the Java Programming Language. There are two natural ways to generate a random number in Java, one is using the Random class, or the other is using the Math class's Random method. I highly doubt that Jagex has made their own, it would be a waste of time. Even if they had, though, they would've used a similar algorithm to get good randomness. What you've just described as patterns is just seeding. Check it out - code up something that uses Java's random class. Run it. Observe the results. Then, seed the random number generator to, 5. or 10. or any other constant. Then run it, and run it again. and again. You'll get the same results. Why? Because it's seeded. Probably 95% of all languages that offer random number generators allow you to seed the generator. Most of them probably use the same algorithm anyway.

I'd like to be able to confidently say that though... I have to start from scratch and work my way into a thesis. If I go out and say - Hey, it should be 0 instead of .95, and go out and my data indicates .95 instead, I'm hosed. That's why I'm starting with level 3's - because I can control them much more than I can control level 126's, too many numbers to get accurate results.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api ... andom.html Compfreak, I know the numbers aren't purely random.If its done by a program, it can't be purely random. If its done in java and you don't know the seed, it might as well be random. That's what pseudo-random means - somewhere the number generator gets seeded, and then off it goes with your "random numbers." Now, you might have done enough testing to get started with the same seeds, and that's why some numbers are more frequent than others. I don't know. What I do know is that I have absolutely no clue where the random nature of hits come from, and that you have absolutely no clue. Unless your name is Andrew, and you created Runescape. What I do know is that somewhere there is a method / function called something along the lines of "calculateHit" - and that numbers are fed into it, and a number is spat out -- It isn't magic. I don't know if the numbers are generated server side or client side. I don't know if the servers are programmed in Java. Right now I can't tell you how the client or server communicates, or if it matters to this application. What I do know is that the first probability I got for this first set of data - this .71, is incredibly close to .75 -> 2 numbers are generated, 1/0 for attack and 1/0 for defense, and then a 1/0 for strength, which means that 1/2 the time attack beats defense and 1/2 the time you won't hit a natural zero, and violia, .25 you'll hit, .75 you'll splash.

EDIT: I need help finding items that provide very specific amounts of bonuses, particularly f2p armour/weapons that provide low Attack bonus, OR low Strength bonus, and items that provide low Defense Bonus, esp. in the category of the attacking one. example: Bronze b-ax provides 9 strength bonus, nothing else or Bronze Pick provides 2 slash defense, nothing else. etc. If you can think of any items that fit these categories, please post with their stats, and if its a weapon, what kind of attacks it has (i.e. trains defense with its slash bonus of +2) Alright, after a hijacking a rant and having a lengthy discussion/argument with Compfreak, I've decided to try and conduct several experiments to find the underlying methods used in Runescape, particularly the ones determining the probability of a hit. Critical Assumptions: -Your own defense, magic, or range has no outcome on the probability of you hitting on your opponent with melee. -All numbers generated are random, or pseudo-random. -The formula for determining a hit does not change from trial to trial. -The dice rolled to determine hits are integers, from 0 to the stat itself [hide=The first test - probability of 1 d and 1 a, no bonus, P to hit]To start, I'd like to know the following scenario: What is the probability of hitting on a character with 1 defense, with 1 attack, 1 strength, and no bonuses? Next, I'd like to explain the setups I will be using. I will create 2 or more characters, go to the Duel Arena, and repeatedly duel. For each hit, I will record its value. One character will have auto retaliate off, with its style as accurate, while the other will be hitting, with its style as defensive. That way, the only experience gained is for a stat that doesn't effect hits. The results: Sub Test 1: 31 miss, 12 hits Sub Test 2: 15 miss, 11 hits Sub Test 3: 16 miss, 11 hits Sub Test 4: 34 miss, 12 hits Sub Test 5: 47 miss, 12 hits Test 1 Total: 143 miss, 58 hits p-value miss: .711443 Sub Test 1: 31, 12 Sub Test 2: 25, 12 Sub Test 3: 39, 12 Sub Test 4: 56, 13 Sub Test 5: 38, 12 Test 2 Total: 189 miss, 61 hits p-value miss: .756000 Sub Test 1: 17, 11 Sub Test 2: 42, 12 Sub Test 3: 23, 11 Sub Test 4: 35, 12 Sub Test 5: 44, 12 Test 3 Total: 161 miss, 58 hits p-value miss: .735160 Conclusion: Each of these are remarkably close to .75. After doing 918 hits, the ratio I got was .743 So, in the setup: 1 attack versus 1 defense, hitting in defensive mode, the probability of a miss is .75[/hide] [hide=The second test... with curse]This setup was pretty difficult: Before attacking, I had to cast curse, then hit repeatedly until curse lost its effects, cast curse again, etc. After three tests: Test 1: 29 miss, 12 hit Test 2: 31 miss, 11 hit Test 3: 42 miss, 12 hit which means the probability of missing is about .745 - the same as the first setup. Conducting these tests were difficult because if I didn't notice the curse was reset, and I continued to record hits, all the data was null at that point. This happened to me once. Anyhow, with no significant reason to believe that curse makes any difference at such a low level, I decided to abandon testing. Conclusion: It didn't make a difference if it says your defense is 0 or 1. Curse could have been -5% on defense, but I'd never know without several thousand tests, to make the Standard Error lower than 5%.[/hide] [hide=The third test]Alright, so after the "failure" with curse, I'd like to test and see if doubling your defense halves the probability of a hit. The setup: 1a 1s vs. 2d, using defensive instead of aggressive. What I'm looking for: The probability of a hit in this setup should be .125, or 1 in 8, if doubling your defense halves the probability of being hit on.[/hide] Why it matters: Jagex gave a clue as to how hits are determined in postbag #38. I assume that two dice are rolled, one for a player's attack, and one for the others defense. Assuming a hit, a third dice is rolled to determine the size of the hit. If you would like to help out with this testing, please PM me. If you see any flaws in my methods, post here.

I could care less on this one. Its not like it affects a large percentage of the F2P population, and even if it did the "unfair" advantage is a small extra boost. Besides, Jagex will fix this one soon enough, and it doesn't affect all aspects of the game (like the mu bug or penguins)