Soma2035

The point is that without the existence of such rules, the situation you made out is impossible. First of all, a max hit of 50 is impossible in typical PvP without special attacks or a slow weapon. Special attacks are limited in nature, and the weapons that can achieve this are usually very inaccurate, thus your 45 is rare, and following with another hit is rarer. Second of all, note that 50 to 115 HP still leaves them with 65 HP. Add in the healing bite they respond with if they're "safing", and that means they have 103 HP again. Even if you hit two 30-30 dragon dagger specials in a row which is in itself very rare, you won't be killing your opponent. Vengeance and Recoil considered, after your specials are out, he'll be retaliating and it's your turn to heal up. The real gain is bigger than expense in low level wilderness is that some people follow these rules. Hence why if you hang out around varrock west bank on a PvP world, you'll usually find people fighting by these rules, no prayer, no safing, etc. Except that people who DON'T follow these rules jump in, expect a fight, and then flame or get flamed back and forth. The rules and structure for a metagame already exist. It just needs to be more clear to other players who want to enter the competitive scheme.

Not a good start. Well, recently I've seen more and more of what some people call RSOF people. They read one sentence and post "Omg no fair i want more stuff." or something along those lines, then they never look back again. :wall: Just a general warning to those people not to waste their time typing.

Is it just me or the thread wasn't moved? :wall:

Note: This is going to be a long read. It will take you a while to read, and even longer to fully comprehend it if you are unfamiliar with competitive gaming in general. Don't bother responding if you don't have the patience and to read and fully understand the situation. Two men are arrested. The prosecutor realizes that he can not convict either man without further evidence. The best he can hope for is to convict each man of a lesser charge that will incarcerate them for 3 years each. Instead, he makes an offer to each prisoner in turn, without giving him a chance to consult with the other. "I will drop all charges against you if you testify against your partner." If both men testify against each other, they will each spend 5 years in prison. If one man testifies and the other does not, the turncoat goes free while the silent prisoner suffers 7 years in prison. This is what's commonly known as "The Prisoner's Dilemma", one of the various game theories. Simply put, no matter what the other person chooses, you will benefit by betraying. Scenario 1) Your partner chooses to stay silent. In this case, if you betray him, you suffer no punishment. If you stay silent, you will be imprisoned for 3 years. Scenario 2) Your partner betrays you. In this case, if you stay silent, you will receive 7 years in prison, while if you betray him as well, you will only spend 5 years. Since in both cases, you are better off in betraying him, if you are searching for the optimal results, you will turn on him, and he will do the same. The result is that you both suffer 5 years in prison, when cooperation would yield in 3 years. So how is this applicable in Runescape? Well, PvP worlds are exactly this. Neither player wants to die, both players want money, want to kill, and want to come out ahead. Most posts I've read in the past couple days reiterate the same point, "I don't want to die." And that, is the dilemma. PvP in Runescape is very defensively oriented. With high defense, your opponent will not hit you consistently, and the best they can hope for is perhaps 1 in 3 attacks hit. The damage system has a high degree of variability, so their average hit is low. Maximum hit points is 115, and you can potentially heal 38 HP per bite. Prayer cuts your maximum hit by another 30%. On top of all that, with them carrying vengeance and recoils, and with people randomly putting vengeance on each other, you literally need 8-9 solid good hits in a row... which is impossible, since that would've killed you with recoil already. What you're left with is, if you are employing every method to prevent death, you will not die. No one can ever score a kill unless their opponent is inexperienced (which will not last long, they will learn sooner or later), or their opponent disconnects (which isn't common, because most people who have shaky internet connections realize this sooner or later and stop PKing). So, following our scenario, you put every effort into staying alive. Try as you might, you can't possibly kill your opponent. Who's winning? You might say it's a draw, but it's not. Both you and your opponent are wasting 30k a fight on supplies. The winners here are the fisherman, laughing as they sell sharks to both of you suckers, and the herbists, swinging around their new AGS they bought with the money they raised from selling you potions. This case isn't unique to Runescape. In general, most games with PvP have it designed in a way that rules need to be added. Hence, the metagame. For example, some games have limitations on what you are allowed to use. Games like those have super-characters who are, intentionally or non, completely unbalanced. The result is that everyone uses those characters, and the game is really pretty dull. Other games have a bunch of near invincibility moves. Everyone uses them, and a single fight goes from a fast paced strategy game to a 6 hour long, repetitive and dull match. The metagame exists for this reason: it makes the game "better" by adding rules into it that all players who participate agree to follow. So what is Runescape's metagame? Well, we have some free floating rules that few people understand, and fewer people still follow. People who want to be involved in the competitive scheme need to understand these rules, and create the metagames they want to play in. Now there's really two PKing "Areas" in Runescape. Safe, and Dangerous. By Dangerous, I mean in level 30 wilderness, far from any safe spot. Dangerous PKing, the way it stands now, doesn't need such rules. With teleblock, holding spells, dragon spears, and similar PKing tactics, dangerous PKing is a game that can be played smoothly. That's not to say some sort of rules would make it better, but rules are hard to apply as you don't have a choice in whether or not you want to fight. Unfortunately, very few people PK in dangerous areas, probably because they're dangerous. They'd much rather hang around safe areas, where they can escape a fight easily if they're losing. However, this game, unlike the dangerous one, is greatly flawed. So the solution is to use the advantage you have, the ability to choose whether or not you are fighting, to apply artificial rules and create a safe-pking metagame. There's really only two ways to kill someone. A) Stop them from escaping, run them out of supplies and kill them, or B) Overpower their healing supplies and kill them before they run out of them. A) is very difficult since if you freeze them, they teleport, if you teleport block, they run into safe zone. In either case, after they choose to stop, you essentially have 10 seconds to kill them IF THEY CHOSE TO RUN. B) is similarly impossible, since as pointed out, you're not going to be able to deal enough damage for a knockout. Perhaps the most commonly played metagame right now is: Single Style, Near-Safezone, Knockout-Oriented, No Safing, No Protection Prays / No Overhead Prays Single Style - This reduces the effort of the fight. This also reduces the amount you lose if you disconnect, and also gives you more food, hence extending the fight and giving both you and your opponent more chances to knockout. Near Safezone - Allows you to run, and fight only people who follow the same rules. No Safing / No Protection Prays / No Overhead Prays - If you've followed me thus far, you understand that these things make knockouts impossible. By allowing your HP to fall under 50%, you are risking dying. In return, your opponent does the same. This gives both of you a better chance of killing and thus a better chance to turn profit. This is also the most controversial, probably because many people (both people who follow it and people who hate it) misunderstand it as a way to distract your opponent, or score easy kills. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that these rules exist for a reason. I don't really agree or disagree with them, as I'm not a serious PKer. However, I *will* say, that if the near-safezone PKing style persists, we need a metagame. It doesn't have to be these rules, but a set of rules needs to be put in place, or else PKing in safezone has very little point. Even though I'm the fisherman and herbist who cares little how you waste the supplies I sell you, it's painful to watch PKers, wanna-be PKers, and non Pkers fight because of the currently poor PvP design, and over the attempts to make it better.

No, the seller isn't selling any goods. He doesn't HAVE any goods. You can't sell something if you don't have anything, and you can't buy anything if you aren't getting anything and the seller isn't losing anything. That's not an exchange. The owner of the items/accounts has remained the same the entire time. Exchange, Verb: to give up (something) for something else; part with for some equivalent; change for another. You are not giving up anything since you don't own anything. You are not parting with anything since you don't own anything. You aren't changing it to another since you have nothing to start with, you are merely RECEIVING. The other person is not exchanging it for a Runescape object, since he is not receiving anything in return. Exchange is the wrong word to use. By the actual letter of the rule, the rule can not actually be broken as far as Runescape items go, because it is impossible to exchange them. The rule also doesn't mention anything about borrowing anything from Jagex. The rule says, "Game Items must only be exchanged [...]" Game items can not be exchanged, and therefore this rule is moot with the current wording.

Don't Feed the Troll.

For anyone who says "I eat because I don't want to die", you don't understand PK-ing at all. Yes, you do raise a valid point. It's not that far off from what we had as a staking system, since the rules were almost always no food no prayer. But as I explained in the other thread, it comes down to what rules you choose to play by. Again, similar to the duel arena, because if your opponent does not agree with your rules, you won't gain anything. All you accomplish is wasting 184 sharks without getting a kill. The point of all the honor rules is to create an environment where PKing can be potentially rewarding. Yes, you can safe, you can pray, you can do whatever the heck you want. But if everyone does that, no one wins. You don't want to die, but neither does your opponent. So it's a compromise, both you and your opponent will increase the risk on your part a bit, and hopefully one of you will time an attack right, or merely score a lucky chain of good hits and win. Potentially, if you can convince enough people to do no food no potion fights, this is actually plausible. You'd still probably bring 3 sharks apiece or so to avoid people you don't want to fight against. The biggest problem though, is that this will be an entirely different game from the one being played now. Right now the goal is to score a knock out before they run. With no food or potions, it becomes a contest of who can deal more damage in a short period of time. It really comes down to whether or not other players want to play by that set of rules. Okay, try to kill me when every time you hit me, I use a tuna potato and brew and heal 38 HP. And I never let my HP fall below 100. And I run once I get down to 4 food + 2 brews. Your opponent doesn't want to die either. So if you both do everything possible to avoid death, neither player has a chance to win, the only person that's gaining is the fisherman selling you suckers the sharks that you're wasting, or the cook who is now buying a Godsword with the money he made from selling you chumps the tuna potatoes. What is the point of PK-ing if everyone is near impossible, and you get a kill every 50 attempts when your opponent lags? You overestimate P2P weapons, even though a Godsword has a max hit of ~75 in PvP, it doesn't mean it hits 75 often.

If you can't concentrate on typing, playing catch with your brother, PK-ing, and playing Disgaea DS all at the same time, you need more practice in the multi-tasking department. ;)

After reading through all the tripe posted so far here, it's obvious no one here has PKed very much. The so-called honor rules are there for mutual benefit. Praying - If you're in low level wilderness, people don't HAVE to fight you. They have an option of running, or teleporting. Since most people tend to hang near safe zones nowadays, you can choose the fight you prefer. Most players prefer to bring only one style of combat for several reasons: 1) One style = less variables. You only need to focus on eating, potting, and perhaps using special attacks. Versus with two styles, you need to switch back and forth. 2) Less equipment. 2 combat styles means 2 sets of weapons / armor. This means two things: 1, if you get jumped, or you disconnect, you lose more, and 2, anyone focusing on just one style will have the upper hand disregarding prayer, and run if you pray. Remember, both players have to AGREE to fight if you're hanging near a safe zone. 3) Easier to train. Not everyone likes all 3 combat styles. There are probably more than that. Anyways, for the above reason, most people prefer to bring but one style. So now, the majority of the people near these safe zones only carry one style. So what? Well, if you're praying when you have multiple styles, you have the upper hand. Therefore they run. If you pray when you similarly have one style, you both pray, you both do 30% less damage, you both have a much lower chance to actually score a kill. Now look at your supplies. This problem is even more of one than back when we used the normal wilderness. I spent 10 minutes in a hot zone, then fought some person the same level as me. I risked ~300k excluding 4 items, while he risked ~300k excluding one item (he had a skull, I did not.) The fight lasted 5 minutes. I finally got a lucky 52, and killed him. My reward, a rune battle axe. Drops are overall very mediocre when PKing. You've probably seen DFH and such, but honestly, those are rare. Also, I am convinced that as well as removing the infinite xp with one click spot yesterday, Jagex reduced the drop rates, since both normal PK-ing and kill feeding is yielding drops with a lower frequency. So the point is, if you're spending 15k-20k in sharks per fight, and perhaps 15k in potions, that adds up to quite a bit. If an average kill is 50k worth, that means you need to get 1 kill every 2 trips just to pay for your supplies, and that doesn't even account for your own death. This is why people run if you pray and they only have one style. When both players pray, there is a very low likelihood that either player will die, since prayer reduces both accuracy and damage. If neither player dies, after 4 rounds, both players have wasted 100k or more. If both players agree not to pray, both players have a chance at killing each other, and thus if one of them is more skilled, or lucky on that day, he might at least break even, or get a small profit. PKing is mostly for fun. But hitting low the whole time, never standing a chance of actually profiting because you both know the other will run, is futile. Safing is a similar matter. I challenge anyone here to try to kill me before I run out of food if I safe and pray. Shark-brew heals 36 HP a bite. Protect melee cuts your max hit barring dharoks to roughly 50. Throw in my rune armor reducing your chance of hitting to maybe 50% means you're not going to kill me. Especially not since I'm hitting back, and occasionally forcing you to eat. So the compromise? Again, you both let your hp fall into KO range. While it's true you can hit a 80 or so, it's very rare. If you actually watch two high leveled pkers fight, you'll see they rarely hit more than 35 or so. AGS specials may hit 50-60, but every time you see one, you know to heal up. The same goes for DDS, except DDS has even lower accuracy. By allowing your hp to fall to under 40 or so before you eat, you are giving your opponent that small chance of killing you with two decent hits in a row. If your opponent does the same, PKing actually has a purpose for both of you, since you both have a chance of winning. If both of you eat every time you fall to 70 or less HP, I'm sorry, but you're not going to kill ANYONE. No one dies, and the only person that wins is the fisherman selling you both sharks to waste. Now I don't know how people interpret this now, since plenty of people shout these terms far from safespots, and that is nonsense. When you're nowhere near a safezone, and you have tele block and ancient magic, these rules mean nothing, and you can potentially kill or be killed. But next to a safespot, if no players followed these rules, you'll see perhaps one death every fifty fights, and the dead man returning to gripe about lag half the time. If you disagree with these rules, that's fine. But just understand that they ARE justified. And realize that when you're close to a safezone, you choose who to fight. You do not need to fight people unless they abide the same rules as you, and most true PKers will choose a way that actually has meaning for them. If you can't deal with it, then don't PK, or PK in a more dangerous location where your opponent doesn't have a choice.

By that logic, the RWT rule is meaningless. "Game items must only be exchanged for other items/services within the game. Exchanging game items for items or other benefits in other online games, real-life money or other real-life benefits is not allowed. " If the ownership of a game item isn't changing (since according to your argument they belong to Jagex), then it's hardly being exchanged. You can't exchange something if you don't lose anything, and the other person doesn't receive anything...

That last statement is not necessarily true. Figuratively, the amount of time and money you've spent playing Runescape already is already a "gun to your head". You can't really just pick up and leave after a minor change you don't agree with, because you've effectively spent hundreds of hours and probably plenty of money too. So while you're not literally forced to leave, Jagex does in a way threaten you. You can't get a refund of the money you spent, you certainly can't get a refund of time. You can quit, but any potential fun you've earned for yourself by training your character high, or earning a lot of money, all goes to waste. New bosses, new items, you can't enjoy any of that even though you've earned your right to it, if you decide to quit. And if you come back there's a penalty to. You need to pay higher membership fees for a year if you don't come back soon enough.

In case no one else realized, that is relevant to only generated loot. You can get a portion of their loot as well. For example, assuming all else remains the same, You killed someone with a dragon dagger and 3 rune scimitars, skulled. It assumes he protects dagger, and 3 scimitars > 25k. You get the maximum drop possible. Let's say your luck was mediocre and you get a Black Mystic Robe Top. You also have a small chance of getting one of his rune scimitars. You kill someone with full dharoks and ags as well as a karils set + ahrims set + tons of runes, etc. It assumes he protects dagger, and hte rest of his items > 25k. You still get the maximum drop possible. Assuming the luck remains the same, you'll still get the same Black Mystic Robe Top. However, in the second case, you also have a small chance of getting one of his barrow pieces, or maybe some of his runes. So while killing someone with 50k risk and killing someone with 5000k risk will usually get you about the same rewards, if you're lucky enough to get one of their dropped items, you will be earning far more on the 5000k kill than the 50k kill.

250 people, not 125. D'bow special damage is reduced against CB.

[hide=Quotes and Pic] Wanna bet? Was at 98 str also. But I can't really see it being used a lot more, 30m to hit 1 point higher for 1 hour max? :roll: Thats void you dip. Hes talking about raw strength bonuses. [/hide] Don't be a jerk. 3 hit u said clearly in his front post that he was talking about max hit against players. Castle wars, Void, etc, all work on players. If you have all kinds of fancy criteria, you should probably specify them before stating that value as the max hit "against players".

I think the junk guide you posted is outdated, I doubt it works that well with lower prices on junk.

Isn't there only 1 P2P BH world? And like 2 F2P BH worlds?

That seems incorrect to me. I've hit a 73 before on Graardor, with the same bonuses that I could achieve against a player. Dropping the +3 on the helm (I had a skill cape, no point in counting that since it has no strength bonus), even if that reduces it by a whole point, that means a max hit of at least 72 against players helmless and capeless. Throw in the 20% on a CW brace, and you get a max hit of at least 86 against players. That's without the new armor. So how on earth can the new max hit on players done with an AGS = 76? You're trying to say the max hit has DROPPED 10 points? #-o

Just FYI, it seems corrupted dragon weapons have no special attacks. So while melee gets a slightly better KO weapon, and dragon scimitar is decent if they feel like spending that much on it, it actually doesn't completely overpower them.

Show me a statement where Jagex definitely said that RWT was killed without question. To begin with, the central entity that defines the value of items isn't central at all - it's the players that do that. It always has been, and even when the GE came out with its price floors/restrictions/what have you, players were able to set the price of trade after repeated use of it. Besides, junk trades have been around for a long time, I'm surprised that no one remembers it. Pardon my language, but... If you know so damn much about this thing, then why the hell haven't you told Jagex how to fix it? Do you WANT more updates focused towards RWT? Or do you just like acting like a know-it-all, and treating Jagex like they're dumber than dirt? God, people like you piss me off... a) Look at the news update where Jagex says that RWT is finished. #-o B) Price floors aren't set by Jagex? Junk SHOULD NOT EXIST. If an item is truly "junk", then let it be worth 0 gp. The GE should allow for that. Jagex puts unfair limitations on prices, and sets initial prices on items which may or may not be able to sell AT ALL at those prices. c) I *have* told Jagex how to fix it. I made perhaps 2-3 posts on RSOF, and they were drowned out immediately by tides of people with the stupidest suggestions possible, so I stopped bothering with it. 1) New items should have no limit on GE offers. That is, you can price it at 5M, but the GE will allow you to offer at 500M, or to sell at 50K. With the amount of offers on new items, people transferring money this way is hardly a risk. 2) GE updates prices once per hour, instead of once per 12 hours or per day (which is what they do now.) 3) For anything that's easily earned (raw materials, monster drops that aren't new), prices change purely based on offers. 4) For anything that's less easily earned, prices can FALL based on offers, while increasing prices stays the same as now. Alternatively, treat the prices the same way as the more common items, and have the GE consistently add some if it seems that one person has monopolized it and is pushing up prices. 5) Take rares entirely out of the market. Have an NPC sell and buy at the current market price, and have that price slowly increase to match inflation. Hence, rares retain their exact value without having to change anything else.

RWT didn't end. I don't know why Jagex thinks it did. It's ridiculously easy to trade money through BH, or through the grand exchange. The value of items, for the most part, can not be determined by a central entity. That is, Jagex can say the price of item X is whatever the hell they want in the Grand Exchange, but if the item is to be produced by players and traded between players, they will do so at a price that both parties find acceptable. If Jagex makes this impossible, either A) Players will find a way to "go-around" the system, AKA junk trading, GE transferring, BH transferring, or B) Players will not complete the trade. Because these methods exist, RWT exists. I know of friends who give you each other stuff using these methods. I have an associate who I believe purchased membership from a such RWTer. There are full RWT organizations still going strong, and autoers have been seen here and there, although maybe not in the numbers from before.

I'm going to put an offer on GE for the corrupt dragon battleaxe. If none of the weapons have specials, then the baxe is the best KO weapon in f2p. It may also just be spear, seeing as spears cause stun, and stun has never been seen on f2p before. Although I guess it's possible that none of them have specials. And wouldn't 2Hander be the best K0 weapon on f2p? Or is that not available corrupted? EDIT: Never mind, there's no corrupt D2H. :(

Gyarados @ Life Orb Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP - Waterfall - Ice Fang - Earthquake / Outrage - Dragon Dance Starmie @ Life Orb / Choice Specs / Choice Scarf Timid, 252 Sp. Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP - Surf - Thunderbolt - Ice Beam - Grass Knot / Energy Ball / Psychic

I thought I'd point out something on this from the locked thread. Just for everyone to know, if you don't already. IP DOES NOT HELP. I'm not talking to anyone specific, I'd just like to spread the fact that IP bans, and IP tracking is completely futile. Why? Because anyone who knows the slightest bit about computers should also know that you can (probably) change your IP within 3 minutes. Or less. For me, anyways, all it takes is walking downstairs, flipping the switch on the modem, and switching it back on. IP limitations are completely useless for the most part, since anyone who's seriously abusing something and needs to be permanently banned / some sort of limitation should know how to get around it anyways.

It DOES affect combat WHEN you have a pouch in your inventory or summon a familiar. Seriously read the RS website before posting again, you are embarassing yourself. no :wall: If I melee with no runes in bag...mage still affects my combat If i melee with no arrows/bow in bag...range still affects my combat so if I am walking around with no summon pouches...summon should still affect my combat please read my posts properly Actually... mage and range don't affect you combat level unless they're higher than your melee skills. I'm sure it doesn't work like that :? Yes, it does work like that, but your argument is still valid. I have 0/99 prayer points, no prayer potions, no prayer restoring items whatsoever, and I'm nowhere near an altar. Why should my combat level increase by 12? I have 99 magic and 40 attack and strength. I have no runes, no staves (plural for staff), nothing else even remotely magic related. Yet my combat is still based on magic. Why? Combat level should be a measure of stats you have achieved. It doesn't matter whether you are making use of it then and there, if you earned it, your combat level should increase respectively...

You do realize that there are multiple stores that sell dragon daggers...? I guess you could fish sharks, not sure what else to do about those, but you don't HAVE to buy a dragon dagger from the GE. And F2P can use corrupted dragon weapons right? If so, then they have access to a dds + d long. Although admittedly, the only one that seems to have a use is the DDS. You could pull it out for specials I guess.