Is God real post your thoughts!

[rushrock]

^ Nature, by default. :P

 

 

 

And if anyone wants to hear my views, please dig through the pages of this thread. :

[destro3979]

I believe in god but not as most do

 

 

 

i think he created everything and let it go.... he doesn't control anything, he just made it

 

 

 

all he does now is decide if you can get into heaven or not

 

 

 

also he could of made other living things in other galaxies, who knows.... i don't

I understand what you are saying. But I am wondering who is controlling the world if God isn't. The Devil? Humans? Animals? Nature?

 

 

 

What makes the world go round?

 

 

 

I guess nature

 

 

 

and gravity and a bunch of other things make the world go round! :D

 

 

 

he just set how everything works....

[gonpost]

I believe in god but not as most do

 

 

 

i think he created everything and let it go.... he doesn't control anything, he just made it

 

 

 

all he does now is decide if you can get into heaven or not

 

 

 

also he could of made other living things in other galaxies, who knows.... i don't

I understand what you are saying. But I am wondering who is controlling the world if God isn't. The Devil? Humans? Animals? Nature?

 

 

 

What makes the world go round?

 

 

 

I guess nature

 

 

 

and gravity and a bunch of other things make the world go round! :D

 

 

 

he just set how everything works....

 

 

 

Except for the deciding if you can get into heaven/hell after you die, you've hinted at existentialism. Look it up if you like.

[kburts]

no

 

 

 

[Shahrazad]

Yes as long as I believe in God then I believe God is real and does exist.

[aquariusman]

As far as I'm concerned, God doesn't exist. I also don't believe that Christianity OR Science explain our existence. I do not know of the details of any other religions and I feel I don't have to, unless you can point out to me a major religion that combines both Evolution and Creationism. That is how I feel everything was created/evolved to it's present state. Somewhere along the line, something had to be divinely created. After that point, and the laws of physics, etc., were established, everything fell into place. The one thing that I still don't think anyone can explain is how something can be created from nothing. For instance, if a divine being, lets call this entity Bob, were to have created everything (and I mean EVERYTHING, every single atom from anywhere in the universe), where did Bob get the materials for this construction, and what created Bob? And what created what created Bob? Some might say that Bob created himself, yet that is impossible, because if Bob didn't exist, what was there to be created by. You could say time travel, but again, there had to be an original Bob for time travel to be possible.

 

 

 

So, essentially, my thoughts on the existence of God are this: He may exist, but He certainly did not create anything. At best, God guided evolution, but nothing more and probably much less. In my mind, God is not God, God is a figure. Also, there is nothing that "created" everything, everything just is. The things I want to know are not in the past, but in the present and the future, things that I can completely understand. That being said, if there every comes a time when someone can prove to me that what I believe in is indeniably wrong, not just to the person attempting to convince me, but to me, I will abandon my thoughts, because then this person must have been able to replace these thoughts.

 

 

 

Anyways, enough with my ramblings and possibly longest TIF post ever, I'm off to walk my dog and absorb what I just revealed to myself.

 

 

 

Just to clear things up, contradictories are expected and inevitable, because I learned more about what I believed as I wrote ( Typed, technically). Oh, and this of course is not meant to offend anyone, for I have not mentioned anyone or anything but hypotheticals, myself and my thoughts. And then there's my dog.

[Rebdragon]

aquarius, that's a very interesting outlook on god, one that I've pondered myself in the past. Like you, I prefer the here and now, not overexamining the far past, and I have often thought of this "God" people refer to as nothing more than a higher being, a guiding force. But I have one simple question to ask- why do you believe divine intervention necessary for existence, and yet at the same time analyze and systematically explain how illogical the idea of a divine creator is [depending on how you define 'divine']? Not that I don't agree with your overall point; I simply don't understand why you find divine creation "necessary".

[Adicolorz]

I looked up God and this is what i got, so he is real mkay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest this is as close as god as you will get, take a step back and look at it logicaly.

[aquariusman]

aquarius, that's a very interesting outlook on god, one that I've pondered myself in the past. Like you, I prefer the here and now, not overexamining the far past, and I have often thought of this "God" people refer to as nothing more than a higher being, a guiding force. But I have one simple question to ask- why do you believe divine intervention necessary for existence, and yet at the same time analyze and systematically explain how illogical the idea of a divine creator is [depending on how you define 'divine']? Not that I don't agree with your overall point; I simply don't understand why you find divine creation "necessary".

 

 

 

I find divine creation necessary because when I trace back everything using conventional science, nothing can be explained before the Big Bang theory. Also, after doing a science project on blackholes, i theorized (Did not mention in project) that eventually, everything in the universe will be swallowed by a black hole. Once this black hole gains enough mass, or there is not enough mass left in the universe, the black hole will suddenly explode, recreating the Big Bang. However, this still creates an infinite loop, not explaining to me where the cycle started, and where the matter was brought in from. Then I question where that matter is from, and so on. At it's most basic, my theory on why we exist is that it is unexplainable. I cannot logical figure out how we came to exist, even if i included divine intervention, because then I question where the divine being came from and how he/she/it came to exist. I have actually abandoned all hope of ever coming to a solid conclusion that completely explains to me the universe came into existence. I do still have hope in understanding everything else though.

[Rebdragon]

I find divine creation necessary because when I trace back everything using conventional science, nothing can be explained before the Big Bang theory. Also, after doing a science project on blackholes, i theorized (Did not mention in project) that eventually, everything in the universe will be swallowed by a black hole. Once this black hole gains enough mass, or there is not enough mass left in the universe, the black hole will suddenly explode, recreating the Big Bang. However, this still creates an infinite loop, not explaining to me where the cycle started, and where the matter was brought in from. Then I question where that matter is from, and so on. At it's most basic, my theory on why we exist is that it is unexplainable. I cannot logical figure out how we came to exist, even if i included divine intervention, because then I question where the divine being came from and how he/she/it came to exist. I have actually abandoned all hope of ever coming to a solid conclusion that completely explains to me the universe came into existence. I do still have hope in understanding everything else though.

 

That's what I thought you meant :-k . We can think about it all we want, but realistically, we don't really have the resources or knowledge nowadays to grasp the idea of the creation of matter and energy or the possibility of an infinitely long existence.

 

 

 

[side note: No one really knows what goes on at the center of a black hole, so 'theorizing' about it without any kind of experimentation of research is probably not such a good idea. For example, some people believe that the energy and matter in a black hole gets dumped out somewhere else in the universe -possibly at quazars (sp?)- through a spacetime dimensionally ripping effect similiar to a pin stretching and tearing through a sheet of paper. Again, this is just one of many hypotheses, but if it turned out to be true your idea wouldn't hold up.

 

 

 

That, and black holes are still a part of the universe, so it doesn't make any sense to say that it would get rid of the mass in the universe by simply sucking more in.]

[baalboy5]

I looked up God and this is what i got, so he is real mkay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest this is as close as god as you will get, take a step back and look at it logicaly.

 

sorry but off topic for non rs related things :shame:

 

 

 

I believe in god, he's is insanly smart guys. You know how complicated gravity and the solar system is? yet alone the human system in us.

 

He's so smart that he come to his own logic and has the perfect thoery/idea/plan for humans. And when I mean smart I MEAN REALLY FREAKING SMART.

 

 

 

k?

[aquariusman]

Stuff I said

 

That's what I thought you meant :-k . We can think about it all we want, but realistically, we don't really have the resources or knowledge nowadays to grasp the idea of the creation of matter and energy or the possibility of an infinitely long existence.

 

 

 

[side note: No one really knows what goes on at the center of a black hole, so 'theorizing' about it without any kind of experimentation of research is probably not such a good idea. For example, some people believe that the energy and matter in a black hole gets dumped out somewhere else in the universe -possibly at quazars (sp?)- through a spacetime dimensionally ripping effect similiar to a pin stretching and tearing through a sheet of paper. Again, this is just one of many hypotheses, but if it turned out to be true your idea wouldn't hold up.

 

 

 

That, and black holes are still a part of the universe, so it doesn't make any sense to say that it would get rid of the mass in the universe by simply sucking more in.]

 

 

 

And yes, my idea completely relies on the fact that blackholes hold in the matter that gets sucked into them, compressing it all into an infinitly small space. My idea also assumes that at some point this infinitly small space is filled, and any more matter attempting to enter causes a catastrophic failure, or maybe even ends up splitting a few atoms, which causes a chain reaction, split more atoms due to the infinitly confined space. And I still think that the basic idea my belief relies on still dominates any theory, mainly because everything had to come from somewhere (Logically), and nothing can just appear if nothing else exists, even with alternate universes, because then they still experience the same dilema.

[tryto]

But thinking scientifically: If everything in teh universe gets swallowed by this black hole, the there's nothing for it to consume, so it cannot expand. It will, eventually, get disintegrated by Hawking Radiation.

[aquariusman]

But thinking scientifically: If everything in teh universe gets swallowed by this black hole, the there's nothing for it to consume, so it cannot expand. It will, eventually, get disintegrated by Hawking Radiation.

 

 

 

Hawking Radiation ignores the fact that it is completely improbable. Ok, so one anti particle appears inside the blackhole's event horizon, it's counterpart particle appears outside. The particle escapes, the antiparticle is trapped by the blackholes, eliminating a particle within, reducing the size of the black hole. The problem is, the reverse will happen just as many times, a particle will appear inside the event horizon, an antiparticle appears outside. The antiparticle escapes, the particle does not, increasing the size of the black hole. Hawking radiation will only affect micro blackholes.

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I am not an expert on blackholes. I am just a 14-year old kid who thinks he knows blackholes well enough to disprove you.

[Zealot]

It is an interesting coincidence that we are able to contemplate the question, is it not? :-w

 

 

 

What is really intriguing is that it is possible for two individuals to recieve the exact same data and come to different conclusions based on it. I believe that such is direct evidence that the mind is much more then just a computer, that at some point it transcends simple logic and becomes more then just a biological supercomputer.

 

 

 

The only explanation that I can think of that fits the bill is that the human mind is a reflection of something far greater and more marvelous still. Irregardless of anything else from our perspective as humans such a Being is well deserving of the title God.

 

 

 

Another interesting thing to consider is that the evidence against a static universe is staggering. Yet, if there is a beginning then there has to be some cause for such. String theory can give an account for our universe, but seems from what I understand (which isn't a lot, I'm a student of philosophy, not physics, so if I am wrong and somebody can explain it I would love a PM) to only push back the origin of origins somewhat. It does not eliminate the need for an origin for everything. Anything large enough to be the first cause for everything must be self-existant and omnipotent... such a being, regardless of sentience or lack thereof deserves the title god as well.

 

 

 

I happen to be a Christian because it seems apparent to me that the probability of Christianity being true is higher then the probability of any other theistic world religion given problems such as the existance of evil and suffering, humanity's tendency toward selfishness, and other information. To go into more depth would be, I believe, going beyond the purpose of this thread. Suffice it to say that I am somewhere around 99.7% confident that the number of "coincidences" I have seen that have God's fingerprints all over them point to HIM rather then any other god. And I would be even more surprised to find out that there was no god in light of what I have seen and experienced.

[Rebdragon]

Suffice it to say that I am somewhere around 99.7% confident that the number of "coincidences" I have seen that have God's fingerprints all over them point to HIM rather then any other god. And I would be even more surprised to find out that there was no god in light of what I have seen and experienced.

 

And I'm 98.39352% sure that that's simply a bias towards your upbringings. What proof is there that god is apparent in any action you assume he is in, and what reason do you have for believing it has to be the Christian god?

[Zealot]

Suffice it to say that I am somewhere around 99.7% confident that the number of "coincidences" I have seen that have God's fingerprints all over them point to HIM rather then any other god. And I would be even more surprised to find out that there was no god in light of what I have seen and experienced.

 

And I'm 98.39352% sure that that's simply a bias towards your upbringings. What proof is there that god is apparent in any action you assume he is in, and what reason do you have for believing it has to be the Christian god?

 

 

 

99.7% has statistical meaning... Your random percentage is just an effort to insult my intellect. Randomness tends to act in a very special way. When there is no interferance and certain other conditions are met, the distribution for a given random sample will make a bell-curve. 68% of possible random samples will fall within one Standard Deviation (SD) of the mean, 95% will fall within 2 SD and 99.7% will fall within 3SD of the mean. What I am saying is that if the hypothesis "there is no god" is true then my life (which ought to be as good a good random sample as any) is one of the .03% of results that does not fit the null-hypothesis.

 

 

 

In an effort to debunk your hypothesis that I am biased toward belief, let me say a few things: I became a Christian either late in 2000 or early in 2001. I was undergoing no major stresses, just my junior year of High School. I was raised in a non-theistic home. Religion was never part of my life growing up--not even for Christmas or Easter. Before I actually looked into it I was militantly anti-Christian.

 

 

 

Any questions or comments?

[warri0r45]

Zealot, I have a question.

 

 

 

With an example, what reason do you have to believe that the christian god was responsible for your coincidence?

[Rebdragon]

99.7% has statistical meaning... Your random percentage is just an effort to insult my intellect. Randomness tends to act in a very special way. When there is no interferance and certain other conditions are met, the distribution for a given random sample will make a bell-curve. 68% of possible random samples will fall within one Standard Deviation (SD) of the mean, 95% will fall within 2 SD and 99.7% will fall within 3SD of the mean. What I am saying is that if the hypothesis "there is no god" is true then my life (which ought to be as good a good random sample as any) is one of the .03% of results that does not fit the null-hypothesis.

 

Hm, always was just told '98%' in Stats class :-k . Still, I don't see how in the world you could hope to statistically analyze the probability of something like the presense of God in the world :| . If it were that simple, I don't think this argument would still be going on after these thousands of years...

 

 

 

In an effort to debunk your hypothesis that I am biased toward belief, let me say a few things: I became a Christian either late in 2000 or early in 2001. I was undergoing no major stresses, just my junior year of High School. I was raised in a non-theistic home. Religion was never part of my life growing up--not even for Christmas or Easter. Before I actually looked into it I was militantly anti-Christian.

 

My point wasn't based on your family, but where you live. Would I be correct in saying that you live in a nation where Christianity is prevalent, or the most common religion? Like you were, currently I'm not very religious, but subconsciously if I were to ever encounter something that could be misconstrued as 'spiritual', I would within a heartbeat immediately assume the Christian God the most likely reason. Why? Simply because living in an environment where Christianity was the main religion of the area closed my eyes off to most other major religions as a child, and thus I have a bias towards it [subconsciously]. Would I ever logically come to the conclusion that God was the main cause of anything? Generally I'd have to say no. But that doesn't change the fact that it's always going to be my first impulse option.

 

 

 

And again, what reason do you have for saying that the Christian god is the only one who could be involved in what you see? Why couldn't it be, say, one of the three hundred million or so Hindu gods?

[Zealot]

Zealot, I have a question.

 

 

 

With an example, what reason do you have to believe that the christian god was responsible for your coincidence?

 

 

 

The one that really convinced me is rather silly... but it was the culmination of a long list of coincidences. C. S. Lewis likened his experience to a wounded animal fleeing its hunter, (Surprised by Joy). In a sence I can agree, but I won't bore you with the whole story, only the pivot point and a minimal of background information.

 

 

 

In the Fall of 2000, I was becoming very militantly anti-Christian. My mom wanted to do something about it, so kinda forced me into going to a Christian Youth Group to try and demonstrate that Christians are people and not that different from anybody else. I argued with the ordained Youth Minister all night long. I also decided to read the Bible and prove that either she didn't know what she was talking about or else it didn't make sence of the world. (In either case demonstrating that Christianity was rediculous) I had made it a little over half way through the Old Testiment when I stumbled accross a book called Ecclesiastes and was stunned by how well this book that was thousands of years old nailed my life down. I threw the Bible accross the room and vowed never to touch it again, but the refrain "a chasing after the wind" haunted my every waking hour and also my dreams. I couldn't sleep and decided to prove once and for all whether God was real or not.

 

 

 

I've always been a bit of a geek. At the time I was the DM for my friends' game of Dungeons and Dragons. I loved the sence of control that it gave me, though that is not important except that at this point I fealt completely out of control--helpless before what seemed to be an unbeatable adversary.

 

 

 

Anyway, I decided to try a simple experiment. I took two 20-sided dice and said to myself that I was going to throw them and if they were both 20's then that would be proof enough that the God that this awful, wonderful book talked about was real. Anything else would be irrefutable proof that He wasn't. I didn't need much at that point I must confess... just something to push me over the edge at this point. God had already just about exhausted my ability to doubt His existance. Anyway, I threw the dice and I didn't believe what I saw--so much so that I threw them twice more, getting double 20's both times before I could accept that I was truely in the presence of Majesty. The probability of double 20's is 1 in 400 on any given throw. The probability of getting double 20's a specific time, three times in a row is 400^3=1 in 64,000,000. In and of itself I am aware that this is a rather silly reason to become a theist, but in light of the other evidence that I saw and continued to experience over the next six months as one by one my entire family became Christian... (the story is very messy but I suppose if you want, PM me and I will tell you) it seems to build a lot stronger case for that particular God then any other, and even more so for the existance of a God over the nonexistance of one. Really the coup de grace was when my father, an alcoholic and avowed atheist, accepted Christ one Sunday while I was being a cabin leader at a Christian camp with my youngest brother. I will add that he had divorced my mother because she was "interfering" with my becoming an avowed atheist like my father. When we got home dad was entirely different. Since that he has never again drank or even desired to, he and mom are getting remarried to one another some time in the next year, and for the first time in my life I really had (and have) a father.

[Zealot]

99.7% has statistical meaning... Your random percentage is just an effort to insult my intellect. Randomness tends to act in a very special way. When there is no interferance and certain other conditions are met, the distribution for a given random sample will make a bell-curve. 68% of possible random samples will fall within one Standard Deviation (SD) of the mean, 95% will fall within 2 SD and 99.7% will fall within 3SD of the mean. What I am saying is that if the hypothesis "there is no god" is true then my life (which ought to be as good a good random sample as any) is one of the .03% of results that does not fit the null-hypothesis.

 

Hm, always was just told '98%' in Stats class :-k . Still, I don't see how in the world you could hope to statistically analyze the probability of something like the presense of God in the world :| . If it were that simple, I don't think this argument would still be going on after these thousands of years...

 

 

 

In an effort to debunk your hypothesis that I am biased toward belief, let me say a few things: I became a Christian either late in 2000 or early in 2001. I was undergoing no major stresses, just my junior year of High School. I was raised in a non-theistic home. Religion was never part of my life growing up--not even for Christmas or Easter. Before I actually looked into it I was militantly anti-Christian.

 

My point wasn't based on your family, but where you live. Would I be correct in saying that you live in a nation where Christianity is prevalent, or the most common religion? Like you were, currently I'm not very religious, but subconsciously if I were to ever encounter something that could be misconstrued as 'spiritual', I would within a heartbeat immediately assume the Christian God the most likely reason. Why? Simply because living in an environment where Christianity was the main religion of the area closed my eyes off to most other major religions as a child, and thus I have a bias towards it [subconsciously]. Would I ever logically come to the conclusion that God was the main cause of anything? Generally I'd have to say no. But that doesn't change the fact that it's always going to be my first impulse option.

 

 

 

And again, what reason do you have for saying that the Christian god is the only one who could be involved in what you see? Why couldn't it be, say, one of the three hundred million or so Hindu gods?

 

 

 

I dunno any reason why I shouldn't use the same principles to reason in regard to what can not be fully tested as what can be. Sure, it doesn't really hold scientific value because it is exploring something that will always be beyond science's grasp, but that doesn't preclude all value. The crux of it is that we can form a null-hypothesis (no god) and an alternate-hypothesis (God). Very roughly we can look at the chain of events that is one's life and to a lesser extent the chain of events that are the lives of those around us, and we can make quantifiable guesses as to how things should look in the absence of god, and how things might be different in the presence of God. Yeah, since either one or the other is true and we have no way of diffinitively determining how things might be different if it were the other way this holds very little scientific value. However, deduction is at a total impasse' so the next tool in our intellectual tool-kid is induction--of which statistics is the mathematics. If we can know anything about God's existance it must be based at least somewhat in statistics.

 

 

 

I have to say a few things about myself before I became a Christian. I read the Koran before doing so was popular, and I also have read a lot of the Ramayana (I think I horribly misspelled that, but one of the key Hindu scriptures basically). I had looked into Buddah and Confucious. I don't really know why I refused to even consider Christianity. Something about it simply repulsed me. I speculate that it is that Christianity is the only world religion that is truely all-or-nothing... no hedging of bets or reincarnation or anything. I do live in an aria that is predominated by a type of Christianity as you would probably define it. However, in the world as a whole and really in any part of the world, claiming the name Christian (or any other religion for that matter) and actually acting as if you believe it are two very distinct things. Many people can do the former but there are always a small minority who actually live as if their God is real. (which, by the way, makes a lot better sence of Christian theology then Hindu or Budhist theology). I hate to say it but the Koran is Islam's greatest counterexample in much the same way that the Book of Mormon is the dominant religion in my home town's greatest counterexample.

 

 

 

Ultimately I am interested in only one thing: "The truth is to say of what is, that it is, or to say of what is not, that it is not. Falsity is to say of what is, that it is not, or to say of what is not, that it is." (Aristotle, in Metaphysics 1011[a24]) I believe that Christianity has the highest probability of being true. I may be wrong. By virtue of the reasons I believe I can never claim absolute certainty. Yet I am about as sure that God is who HE is as I am that the earth revolves around the sun.

[warri0r45]

[hide]

Zealot, I have a question.

 

 

 

With an example, what reason do you have to believe that the christian god was responsible for your coincidence?

 

 

 

The one that really convinced me is rather silly... but it was the culmination of a long list of coincidences. C. S. Lewis likened his experience to a wounded animal fleeing its hunter, (Surprised by Joy). In a sence I can agree, but I won't bore you with the whole story, only the pivot point and a minimal of background information.

 

 

 

In the Fall of 2000, I was becoming very militantly anti-Christian. My mom wanted to do something about it, so kinda forced me into going to a Christian Youth Group to try and demonstrate that Christians are people and not that different from anybody else. I argued with the ordained Youth Minister all night long. I also decided to read the Bible and prove that either she didn't know what she was talking about or else it didn't make sence of the world. (In either case demonstrating that Christianity was rediculous) I had made it a little over half way through the Old Testiment when I stumbled accross a book called Ecclesiastes and was stunned by how well this book that was thousands of years old nailed my life down. I threw the Bible accross the room and vowed never to touch it again, but the refrain "a chasing after the wind" haunted my every waking hour and also my dreams. I couldn't sleep and decided to prove once and for all whether God was real or not.

 

 

 

I've always been a bit of a geek. At the time I was the DM for my friends' game of Dungeons and Dragons. I loved the sence of control that it gave me, though that is not important except that at this point I fealt completely out of control--helpless before what seemed to be an unbeatable adversary.

 

 

 

Anyway, I decided to try a simple experiment. I took two 20-sided dice and said to myself that I was going to throw them and if they were both 20's then that would be proof enough that the God that this awful, wonderful book talked about was real. Anything else would be irrefutable proof that He wasn't. I didn't need much at that point I must confess... just something to push me over the edge at this point. God had already just about exhausted my ability to doubt His existance. Anyway, I threw the dice and I didn't believe what I saw--so much so that I threw them twice more, getting double 20's both times before I could accept that I was truely in the presence of Majesty. The probability of double 20's is 1 in 400 on any given throw. The probability of getting double 20's a specific time, three times in a row is 400^3=1 in 64,000,000. In and of itself I am aware that this is a rather silly reason to become a theist, but in light of the other evidence that I saw and continued to experience over the next six months as one by one my entire family became Christian... (the story is very messy but I suppose if you want, PM me and I will tell you) it seems to build a lot stronger case for that particular God then any other, and even more so for the existance of a God over the nonexistance of one. Really the coup de grace was when my father, an alcoholic and avowed atheist, accepted Christ one Sunday while I was being a cabin leader at a Christian camp with my youngest brother. I will add that he had divorced my mother because she was "interfering" with my becoming an avowed atheist like my father. When we got home dad was entirely different. Since that he has never again drank or even desired to, he and mom are getting remarried to one another some time in the next year, and for the first time in my life I really had (and have) a father.

[/hide]

 

Intersting story, thanks.

 

 

 

Edit: Do you think, given another scenario, that someone else could have a similar experience to come to their religion?

[no_way2go]

I don't believe in god...

 

I believe in a certain force that created the whole universe but *sorry if this is offending* it is just [developmentally delayed]ed to believe that the earth is only 4000 years old, there is a guy in the sky who created us and earth in 7 days(one planet out of the billion billion ones out there), he had a 'magical' son who performed miracles (not to mention most of chrisitian symbols like the crusification, resurrection, miracles, 12 disciples, ... all were taken from other religions, it's because they are astrological and not metaphysical symbols), ... People should see the bible as a collection of stories that indeed sometimes have a good lesson to learn but it needs to be placed in it's context: the prosecution of chrisitans over 2000 thousand years ago... it can't be taken literarlly specially because of the huge amount of translation errors, because of the limited knowledge of foreign languages over 500 years ago, who limits the common reader to see the deeper (astrological) message.

 

 

 

If there in fact was a guy living happily ever after in the sky with all the billions of 'good' dead people then I'm sure he wouldn't allow this sick world we live in: every second children are dying because of lack of clean water, food or medicines. 90% of the world's wealth is in the hands of only 1% of the total world population.

 

There is enough food to feed everyone yet there still are thousands of people dying because of hunger every hour, it isn't a matter of lack of money or it's just the awefull greed of people!

 

 

 

The fact we are alive all depends on the charge of electrons, the speed of light and the gravitational constants. This is God!

[darkforaster]

We humans have created the idea of a god and made him into our image and thrown in a lot of stories with him. That is what Ludwig Feurbach was trying to say.

 

Yeah, I get that. If you don't believe in God he must have been created by humans. What I don't get is how us being the image of God means that God was created by man.

 

 

 

Noone ever said that! i don't even know how you got this idea.

 

 

 

i can't see how you think that god's existance is 100% reliable. It isn't, there's very little proof of his existance; most of which comes from unreliable sources .

 

You can never really be 100% sure of anything. I would say that there are many things pointing toward the existence of a God. The Bible, Jesus, the earth and humans and all religious people just to name a few. However, these so called proofs or evidence doesn't mean much if you don't believe. From my experience God is 100% reliable and is always there when I need him.

 

 

 

You've lead a very lucky life. But what about the millions in poverty? God hasn't been there for them. Life has been good to you. Not to them. Fair much? i think not. A god which smiles upon those in a lucky environment which is also a very sinful environment, than to those in a plain normal non-sinful environment and claims to be all loving to everyone is lying to us all. Those in Africa won't say that god was always there for them.

 

 

 

yet he punishes the good with suffering for accidentally being involved in evil's doings. E.g. twin towers, lots of people died due to a few terrorists. All of them shouldn't have deserved that.Why would an allloving god allow such unjust punishment for the good people and the undeserving.

 

As sin entered this world it has been an unfair and evil world. Many people might not get the life they deserve here on earth. But that's because earth is broken and ruined. What's important is not how comfortable our life has been on earth. It's whether we end up in heaven or hell that really matters.

 

 

 

I'm thinking that if we're supposed to have free will God can't interfere with every wrong decision we make.

 

 

 

yet the punishment god gives us at the begin. Remember god is supposedly all-powerful so he has the power to vanquish evil. But evil remains, look at the quotes again. One mentions about god's existance as a lie completely, or about the details of his power and willingness being a lie. The latter is my belief. And although god intended us to have free will, was that such a loving choice to make? By having free will we can intentionally harm or kill others, putting them and those near them in pain and suffering. Why would god want this? or perhaps why would an all-loving god want this?

 

 

 

By the way, i do believe in god. I just don't believe in him being all loving, omnipotent and omniscient. i also believe that many of the bible stories are just that. Stories. tales without proof or evidence of them ever happening.

 

I can see why you find it hard to combine the world we live in with an all loving God. But look at what God did. He sent his son to die for our sins. We didn't deserve it but he did it anyway because of his love for us.

 

 

 

Why would an all loving god want his son to die? I argued this point earlier on, a god which requires sacrifice for him to forgive us is not all loving.

[killaman_47]

beause "a picture can say more than 1000 words" that is what i intend to show

 

 

 

 

 

 

ive gotta say people who blame muslim fundamentalists should check out americas "bible belt" and play "spot the difference" its much harder than it sounds.

 

 

 

if god can cause so much trouble perhaps man is better of without him.. but he also caused some the mans greatest achevements... really its a moot point. Man wouldnt be better or worse of without god regardless of wheather he is real