Is God real post your thoughts!

[venomai]

Yes, I have to see God to believe that this is all his creation, just like you have to see the baker to believe that the pastries and breads are his creation.

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen(ie: God)

 

So, you believe air exist right? You know - oxygen, nitrogen, all those other gases = air. Yep....oh wait....but where is it? OH MY GOSH! Well, I can't see air so it must be there. Case solved.

 

See, perceive, find, understand, be one with, be enlightened... choose whichever term you are most comfortable with. I suspect that I will never truly see the divine through my physical vision, as the human eye is very limited in what it can perceive.

 

 

 

So I'll assume you've seen God. What was He like? :)

 

:roll:

 

What's that for?

 

Plectrum said he doesn't believe it unless he sees it, so I'd assume the only reason he believes in God is because he has seen Him.

[Rebdragon]

Who said religion must be logical? And mind explaining your point a bit more, sorry if I sound stupid, but I really didn't exactly get what your point was overall.

 

You defined faith as "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen(ie God)". Evidence is logical. Faith is not. I was merely commenting on the contradiction of your definition.

 

 

 

And for the record, I have nothing against religion whatsoever, just faith. Religion and faith are two very different things my friend.

 

 

 

I was using air to explain that his "If I cant see it I don't believe it" attitude.

 

 

 

The if "I can't see it I don't believe it" attitude is about more than 'seeing', it's about using any and all of our physical senses to detect something, including the ability to understand [as noted by venomai]. Thusfar, our physical senses have been proven to be able to detect wind, but no physical sense has ever been proven to detect any form of supernatural being, nor has one ever come to be understood. That was the point being made.

 

 

 

1 - You cant scream online

 

2 - Obviously you didn't catch I was be extremely sarcastic in that sentence.

 

Which is why it was an annoying way to phrase your post :| . Sarcasm is for friendly, cursory, humorous remarks, not intelligent debate.

[Joes_So_Cool]

Get off the 2nd page! POST YOUR VIEWS!

 

 

 

(I want a sticky )

[MiyuLynx]

i believe in God.

 

 

 

however, i sometimes question how other people can explain what God truly wants of others, and what God's opinion of worldy matters really is.

 

 

 

ah well. -.-

[Joes_So_Cool]

If God is great, then why does he create murderers and rapists, for his sick enjoyment?

 

 

 

~Joe.

[MiyuLynx]

well... God gives people free will. he didn't create a murderer, that person chose to become a murderer. he knew what would happen, but he loved the person enough to make him anyway. life is full of hardships, which makes the after life seem that much better. everyone has a path in life that we're most likely destined to follow anyway. maybe the murder of someone is a test for others, the one who killed and the family and friends of both parties. some things we mortals can never be sure of. it's just part of that great mystery.

 

 

 

maybe my answer was a little off or vague... so i can try and sum it up here. it's kind of like an old saying.

 

 

 

"it is better to have lived, suffered, and died, than to have never of lived at all."

[Luke_L]

As a Christian, I do believe God is there. I also believe that God has guided me through a lot of tough times in my life, and that without my belief in Him, I'd probably not be here today. He has given me a lot of strength and determination, and for that I thank Him.

 

 

 

I'm not going to harp on at you like too many Christians do today - I'd just like to have my own beliefs. You can have yours.

[assassin_696]

every one is entitled to their own opinion. Just let it rest. Just last night on clan chat we had a dirtbag who could not keep his mouth shut about religion. Its stupid to fight over and you cannot just walk up to a guy and say

 

"God is real because I saw Jesus's face on my grilled cheese sandwich."

 

There really is no point to this. You can practice your own religion, but if your gonna fight about it, please look back at WWII. A whole population of people were murdered for practicing a religion and you know what, if people continue to fight over religion like this then I will say that within my lifetime, another halocaust will happen, lead by the people who should be killed because they cannot accept people for who they are.

 

 

 

You can be accepted into society for caring and allowing other people to have opinions or you can be accepted into slavery, where your minds prejudices take you over and ultimately control you.

 

 

 

Just allow other people an opinion and live with their decisions.

 

 

 

So when the Islamic extremists start teaching their children that all infidels have no claim to life in this world, when they start teaching their children that western culture is wicked and corrupt, and when they start teaching their children that martyrdom is a wonderful thing, we just stand back and don't touch them, becuase that's their faith right? And we can't touch that?

 

 

 

Except all of those things are already happening, and countless more. Stop living in a dream world, we can't all just get on if we all let each other be, we must debate and challenge accepted dogma if we are to live in any kind of world worth living in. Why put religion on a pedestal? If can affect people's decisions and outlooks far more profoundly than politics can, but we'd never dream of saying that we can't debate political matters because "that's someones views".

 

 

 

How convinient.

 

Things like this really tick me off.

 

I'm 14 - you can't expect me to know everything.

 

 

 

That's a cop out, and an appeal to authority, but to be honest i'd have thought you might have remembered a concrete proof of God and the vailidity of the Bible. That's not something you'd easily forget if it were true.

[dutchstyle]

Science > god

 

 

 

It just isn't logical, just only looking @ heaven and hell, looking @ death being a punishment for what you did of god, I mean why would osama still live whilest some of the greatest legends/heroes've died?

[Joes_So_Cool]

Because there not immortal?

 

 

 

~Joe.

[King_Royale]

well... God gives people free will. he didn't create a murderer, that person chose to become a murderer.

 

 

 

Ok, sorry, but I disagree.

 

 

 

"God" gave these people a brain. If this brain that "God" created was limited and "God" made the brain to never have bad thoughts, they wouldn't murder or do anything bad.

 

 

 

Would they?

[Rebdragon]

well... God gives people free will. he didn't create a murderer, that person chose to become a murderer.

 

 

 

Ok, sorry, but I disagree.

 

 

 

"God" gave these people a brain. If this brain that "God" created was limited and "God" made the brain to never have bad thoughts, they wouldn't murder or do anything bad.

 

 

 

Would they?

 

But that would be taking from their free will :wall: .

 

 

 

Really, do you guys want every human being to be a programmable robot merely for the sake of peace? Sure, the world is a better place overall, but is worth the sacrifice of free will, of individuality, of purpose?

 

 

 

[side note: Good and bad are relative; there's no clear line. Pretty much every action made by men has at least a little of either of those complementary forces in them. So how would you describe a person "completely free of bad thoughts"? Someone with no mind to begin with?]

[King_Royale]

But that would be taking from their free will :wall: .

 

Touche, sir.

 

 

 

Really, do you guys want every human being to be a programmable robot merely for the sake of peace? Sure, the world is a better place overall, but is worth the sacrifice of free will, of individuality, of purpose?

 

 

 

Well, no, but if we took away the evil thoughts of people, the world would be nicer.

 

 

 

Cons =

 

Overpopulation

 

Ned Flanders'

 

Etc.

 

 

 

Meh, just take away war and I think we all win.

[venomai]

well... God gives people free will. he didn't create a murderer, that person chose to become a murderer. he knew what would happen, but he loved the person enough to make him anyway. life is full of hardships, which makes the after life seem that much better. everyone has a path in life that we're most likely destined to follow anyway.

 

This came up a few pages back:

 

http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?p=5576942#5576942

 

 

 

Basically, I argued that:

 

- God does not give us all equal free will. He has the power to increase free will around the world but chooses not to.

 

- God did create the murderer and did nothing to stop the crime or to save the victim.

 

- God does not love us all equally.

 

 

 

maybe the murder of someone is a test for others, the one who killed and the family and friends of both parties. some things we mortals can never be sure of. it's just part of that great mystery.

 

The Holocaust was a test? The hundreds of thousands dying every year of hunger is part of God's great mysteries? Is this all "God's plan"?

 

 

 

Perhaps it's easy for you and I to say that there is a lot of love in the world, but when we look outside of our self-centered bubbles and begin to focus on other nations and other races it becomes clear that God does not treat us all equally and does not give us all equal free will.

[venomai]

well... God gives people free will. he didn't create a murderer, that person chose to become a murderer.

 

 

 

Ok, sorry, but I disagree.

 

 

 

"God" gave these people a brain. If this brain that "God" created was limited and "God" made the brain to never have bad thoughts, they wouldn't murder or do anything bad.

 

 

 

Would they?

 

But that would be taking from their free will :wall: .

 

 

 

Really, do you guys want every human being to be a programmable robot merely for the sake of peace? Sure, the world is a better place overall, but is worth the sacrifice of free will, of individuality, of purpose?

 

 

 

[side note: Good and bad are relative; there's no clear line. Pretty much every action made by men has at least a little of either of those complementary forces in them. So how would you describe a person "completely free of bad thoughts"? Someone with no mind to begin with?]

 

What does free will, individuality and purpose have to do with bad/corrupted thoughts? Since when do you need evil thoughts to have those things?

 

 

 

If evil never existed, then you would have no concept of what evil is. You wouldn't be able to "choose" evil because you wouldn't comprehend it. Your free will wouldn't be taken away because it wouldn't be a choice that your brain could ever actively make.

 

If true evil did not exist, there would still be free will and individuality and purpose in the world.

 

 

 

Although I agree, it would be futile and detrimental to take away every "bad" thing in this world.

 

 

 

At the very least, God could diminish revenge, hatred and wars. He could diminish the number that die every year due to hunger and disease. He could have helped those in the Holocaust. He could have diminished the damage in the 9/11 attacks. etc.

[Rebdragon]

What does free will, individuality and purpose have to do with bad/corrupted thoughts? Since when do you need evil thoughts to have those things?

 

 

 

If evil never existed, then you would have no concept of what evil is. You wouldn't be able to "choose" evil because you wouldn't comprehend it. Your free will wouldn't be taken away because it wouldn't be a choice that your brain could ever actively make.

 

If true evil did not exist, there would still be free will and individuality and purpose in the world.

 

Eh, I was kind of going off the idea that to be completely free of any and all evil thoughts, our choices in life would be limited to the extent that it would hard to say that we have free will, or total free will at the least.

 

 

 

Now, if a new bar was set limiting the 'evil level' to which human thoughts could go (or at least moving the bell curve a bit), I could see people retaining free will; we'd just have higher standards as a society for what is good and what is evil.

 

 

 

At the very least, God could diminish revenge, hatred and wars. He could diminish the number that die every year due to hunger and disease. He could have helped those in the Holocaust. He could have diminished the damage in the 9/11 attacks. etc.

 

Maybe he already does, but because he doesn't make it obvious to us we simply ask for more?

 

 

 

Maybe twenty million Jews were supposed to die, but God did some minor intervening, to the extent where he could still remain hidden?

 

 

 

What if that fourth plane was really going to hit it's target, but God intervened?

 

 

 

What if hunger and disease would be much worse then they are today, but God has already done a little to help alleviate some of the pain?

 

 

 

The problem is, we just can't know :| . We'll just keep on asking for a perfect world until we get it, and when we do, we'll just keep asking for more...

[Roberthree]

(I didn't read the thread, to long)

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe there is a god. I see to much evidence of theories that contradict what the bible (A book that has been warped and twisted so much that no one knows what it originally said) says. I have been given no logical reasoning as to why god exists or why he does what he does. It's always the same crap about "Have faith". If god where real and cared about me believing in him, he would use his god powers to teleport in here and say "Screw you robert! I am real bee-otch!" Then he would turn all my bathwater into wine therefore leaving me a drunk purple man.

 

 

 

Honestly, I see so much harm caused by religion and so little good it has brought... I'm not just anti-god, I'm anti-religion.

[MiyuLynx]

free will... i think we all have free will. however, it is not God who takes away our free will, it is other humans. those who defy God and take what he has iven others will answer to him in the end. the holocaust itself was started because of free will, and it was also ended by free will. you have to choose to do something for it to be free will. free will does not mean you can have whatever you want simply by wanting it. you have to make an effort.

 

 

 

and yes life is a test. did i say we were all tested equally? no, i don't believe i did. we were all born equall, but we were also born unique.

[Rebdragon]

(I didn't read the thread, to long)

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe there is a god. I see to much evidence of theories that contradict what the bible (A book that has been warped and twisted so much that no one knows what it originally said) says. I have been given no logical reasoning as to why god exists or why he does what he does. It's always the same crap about "Have faith". If god where real and cared about me believing in him, he would use his god powers to teleport in here and say "Screw you robert! I am real bee-otch!" Then he would turn all my bathwater into wine therefore leaving me a drunk purple man.

 

 

 

Honestly, I see so much harm caused by religion and so little good it has brought... I'm not just anti-god, I'm anti-religion.

 

Then try studying Eastern religion for a bit*, 'cause you seem to be in the "rebellion against monotheism" phase right now :| .

 

 

 

[My personal fav is Theravada Buddhism, but each one teaches something different yet complementary to the teachings of others, so don't just look at one, look at 'em all.]

[dwarfdude3]

Is God real?

 

 

 

This kind of question is asked so often, all this 'Is God real? Do you Believe in God? How much Faith do you have?'

 

 

 

but I don't see how anyone can even BEGIN to answer this question without first asking the real question: 'What is God?'

 

 

 

Now that is a much more interesting question.

 

 

 

If by God, you mean a grandfather figure in the sky with a long beard, then no of course I don't believe in it, that is absurd.

 

 

 

What I do believe in is the spirit, the soul, the mystical. The idea that there is something beyond the ordinary material life. God is what lies beyond the material world, whatever that may be. I cannot describe it, because I live in the material world and any attempt to describe it would be describing it in terms of materialism. But it is there. At least that is what I believe, that is faith.

 

 

 

But really, it makes sense. Because you CAN tune in to this metaphysical concept, you just can't explain it...

[yomom1919]

I've slowly developed a nihilist [i learned I was one after developing the thoughts, then read that there is actually a name for my beliefs]... Except I disagree with them on their "no absolute morality view", I believe that humans can collectively develop a logical sense of morality.

[unorclan]

 

- God does not give us all equal free will. He has the power to increase free will around the world but chooses not to.

 

You say he should intervene and destroy the free will of those you claim as "bad people" in order to give free will to what you think of as "good/innocent people".

 

I'll say it again - free will (as you describe it) is not what we mean exactly. It's more of a 100% free choice of right and wrong - not free choice of coming and going as you please without anyone getting in your way.

 

- God did create the murderer and did nothing to stop the crime or to save the victim.

 

Yes, of course you would know what all God has done wouldn't you?

 

- God does not love us all equally.

 

Where the hell do you get that idea?

 

 

 

The Holocaust was a test? The hundreds of thousands dying every year of hunger is part of God's great mysteries? Is this all "God's plan"?

 

Yes, because, as the Bible says, all those who are pursecuted for His sake shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The world can't be perfect, because evil is in the world and God loves us enough to let us choose good or evil.

 

 

 

Perhaps it's easy for you and I to say that there is a lot of love in the world, but when we look outside of our self-centered bubbles and begin to focus on other nations and other races it becomes clear that God does not treat us all equally and does not give us all equal free will.

 

God does not give a evil man riches, he does not give the good man riches - physical needs are taken care of by Him, but other than that man gains the rest as God allows.

 

Those who die in innocence will be glad they did as the are welcomed into Heaven.

 

 

 

The problem with you Venomai, is that you don't believe in Heaven or Hell therefore all you know is to focus on the physical suffering and forget about enternity.

[Rebdragon]

The problem with you Venomai, is that you don't believe in Heaven or Hell therefore all you know is to focus on the physical suffering and forget about enternity.

 

Not speaking for Ven of course, but I hold that philosophy and I find it to be a much more useful way to look at life than focusing on trying to comprehend something incomprehensible, like gods or the afterlife. It's nowhere near a 'problem'; it's simply a different outlook on life than your own.

 

 

 

Though, I may simply just be having trouble understanding you. Why would you label such a mindset "a problem"?

[Zealot]

The problem with you Venomai, is that you don't believe in Heaven or Hell therefore all you know is to focus on the physical suffering and forget about enternity.

 

Not speaking for Ven of course, but I hold that philosophy and I find it to be a much more useful way to look at life than focusing on trying to comprehend something incomprehensible, like gods or the afterlife. It's nowhere near a 'problem'; it's simply a different outlook on life than your own.

 

 

 

Though, I may simply just be having trouble understanding you. Why would you label such a mindset "a problem"?

 

 

 

I don't intend to argue, only to attempt to demonstrate the Christian perspective on this and why in some sence it is a problem for you if you are not correct...

 

 

 

If it is the case that there is a God... and it is the case that the Bible is an accurate rendition of God's general will for how HIS world should run and HIS creatures should behave... then it is the case that there is a real place that is Heaven (that is the presence of God) and a real place that is Hell (that is the absence of God), and it is also the case that every human being on the planet is going to either one or else the other.

 

 

 

If Heaven and Hell are real and everybody is going one way or the other and you don't know it then I ought to do everything in my power to show you so that you don't unintentionally go somewhere you do not want to go.

 

 

 

As a Christian who believes the Bible, Unorclan can not help but try to warn people off from a dangerious path any more then I, as a good Samaritan could not in good concience do anything but warn people that the bridge was out and they would probably be destroyed if they continued along that road they were on.

[venomai]

At the very least, God could diminish revenge, hatred and wars. He could diminish the number that die every year due to hunger and disease. He could have helped those in the Holocaust. He could have diminished the damage in the 9/11 attacks. etc.

 

Maybe he already does, but because he doesn't make it obvious to us we simply ask for more?

 

Good point. :) I guess we'll never know for sure.

 

 

 

I'll say it again - free will (as you describe it) is not what we mean exactly. It's more of a 100% free choice of right and wrong - not free choice of coming and going as you please without anyone getting in your way.

 

Then perhaps you should stop using the term "free will" in this context. :-k The way "I describe it" is the way the English language describes it. If you mean something other than free will, then don't use those words...

 

 

 

Perhaps it's easy for you and I to say that there is a lot of love in the world, but when we look outside of our self-centered bubbles and begin to focus on other nations and other races it becomes clear that God does not treat us all equally and does not give us all equal free will.

 

God does not give a evil man riches, he does not give the good man riches - physical needs are taken care of by Him, but other than that man gains the rest as God allows.

 

Those who die in innocence will be glad they did as the are welcomed into Heaven.

 

Physical needs? What about food and water?

 

 

 

And what about those innocents who have not been baptized? God loves them, yet he does not welcome them to Heaven?

 

 

 

The problem with you Venomai, is that you don't believe in Heaven or Hell therefore all you know is to focus on the physical suffering and forget about enternity.

 

Actually, I do believe in the afterlife and non-physical dimensions, and when my time comes I will be ready to enter it (with or without Christianity). :)

 

 

 

I focus on the physical suffering because I don't think anyone should be entitled to endure it.