Junk Trading: Acceptable, Practical Practice?

[darkvictorabstract]

Forgive me if this logic may sound flawed, but here's the reason that I don't believe in/condone "junk trading".

 

 

 

1) Players believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

2) Players come into possession of a high value, low demand item (e.g. rare, 3rd age)

 

3) Players want to sell item in GE, no buyers, complain that GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

4) Players "junk trade" to another person for significantly less (in GP) than its worth

 

5) Price is never updated in GE to reflect the new possible trade

 

6) Players continue to believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

 

 

(Continue 2-6 until you get bored)

 

 

 

People don't think that the GE works, so they avoid using it. Little do they realize that by them not using it, they're really breaking the "broken" system even more. This is known as an infinite loop, and it seems like the only way to break it is to get the players' confidence in the GE.

 

[While I'm very confident in the GE myself, I don't see many other players willing to believe that it works...]

 

 

 

this would make sense if it was ontopic, if an item is 250k on the ge and the item is worth 15mil, no one is going to use the ge to sell it

 

 

 

If an item is worth 250k on the ge, and everyone uses the ge, buys at the max price for some while, then the item wil reach its normal price. However, the only way this happens is if people are junk trading. Ex>: 2nd age plate (making it up) is 60 mil. People JUNK TRADE IT,because of its high demand, AND THE PRICE STAYS 60 MIL. Its high demand raises the price to 70 MIL. The GE price is 60 mil, so NOBODY uses the ge and price stays the same. However, 2nd age plate is STILL GOING UP! Had every person trading used the ge, THE STREET PRICE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GE PRICE! The fact is,to remove this problem ENTIRELY, either we ban free trade completely and rely on the ge (not happening), we raise our membership price and allow Jagex to hire a full team of price adapters, adapting ge prices, or we ALLOW AND CONDONE JUNK TRADES at least for rare/high in demand items.

[Alg]

I'd think it's still important to note that the items that people junk trade are uncommon 'novelty' items. They're useless, but show your wealth, and aren't traded too often. Items that the everyday Runescaper is going to use and buy are stable, and there are few, if any, pricing problems.

 

 

 

My point with the masks is something that happened with every previous treasure trail reward, or new item in general; It stsrts off high, as it did, but unlike every other time, it hasn't fallen to a reasonable price that everyone agrees on. In a normal, player-controlled economy, it probably would have fallen by now.

[Genin]

Never had a problem with it, and now it is 100% .. you see, I made 1000 Spirit Dags, and just found out they for some reason alch for like 269gp. The hides cost 4kea, and you get 1 shard back if you trade them in... in the GE the pouches cost 2.5kea or so.. hence: PERFECT for junk trading.

 

 

 

Just have to find something worth more than the GE price... so in this case, I find it perfectly reasonable. Even if its for a selfish reason.

[De_Lille_D]

I'd think it's still important to note that the items that people junk trade are uncommon 'novelty' items. They're useless, but show your wealth, and aren't traded too often. Items that the everyday Runescaper is going to use and buy are stable, and there are few, if any, pricing problems.

 

 

 

My point with the masks is something that happened with every previous treasure trail reward, or new item in general; It stsrts off high, as it did, but unlike every other time, it hasn't fallen to a reasonable price that everyone agrees on. In a normal, player-controlled economy, it probably would have fallen by now.

 

 

 

Those items are not always novelty items; think of the leaf-bladed sword. I tried buying it on GE for 2 days and finally I used the forums.

 

Now I'm stuck with 120k needles...

[benar]

I ran into a similar deal with that same item. It definitely isn't novelty.

[laughattak828]

I hate how Jagex tries to put a "price" on everything. What is this achieving? And the rtue selling price is whatever someones willing to pay for it.

[Nagrom_17]

 

 

 

If an item is worth 250k on the ge, and everyone uses the ge, buys at the max price for some while, then the item wil reach its normal price. However, the only way this happens is if people are junk trading. Ex>: 2nd age plate (making it up) is 60 mil. People JUNK TRADE IT,because of its high demand, AND THE PRICE STAYS 60 MIL. Its high demand raises the price to 70 MIL. The GE price is 60 mil, so NOBODY uses the ge and price stays the same. However, 2nd age plate is STILL GOING UP! Had every person trading used the ge, THE STREET PRICE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GE PRICE! The fact is,to remove this problem ENTIRELY, either we ban free trade completely and rely on the ge (not happening), we raise our membership price and allow Jagex to hire a full team of price adapters, adapting ge prices, or we ALLOW AND CONDONE JUNK TRADES at least for rare/high in demand items.

 

finaly someone realizes that. junk trading is pointless because if people would just sell max on get the price would go up to the junk price and you dont have to waste time getting junk to trade with.

[plasma4444]

Warning: this is NOT a support post for junk trading. It is simply an attempt to explain why people use it as opposed to using GE to raise the price.

 

 

 

I'll continue darkvictorabstract's fictional example of a 2nd age plate.

 

 

 

Suppose that there really is a 2nd age plate. The GE price is 60M, and the street price is 70M. Now, the no-junk-traders would buy and sell on the GE until the price reaches 70M. HOWEVER: The problem is that there aren't that many 2nd age plates. For prices to rise on the GE, there needs to be a LARGE trading volume of the item. Otherwise, prices would jump up and down every 2 or 3 minutes. With a rare item such as the 2nd age plate, there are not that many of them ,as they are hard to obtain.

 

 

 

Pretend there are 10,000 2nd age plates altogether in RS. Of those 10,000 people, 2,000 want to keep it. So we have 8,000 being sold for first time on GE. Of the 8,000 people that now have one, perhaps only 5,000 will sell again. And then after that, perhaps only 3,000 will be traded.

 

 

 

Rare items are not traded enough for the price to jump say, 10M. For proof, check out the GE history graphs for partyhat prices.

 

 

 

Link: http://itemdb-rs.runescape.com/results.ws?query=partyhat&price=all&members=

 

 

 

Of course, the price for the 2nd Age will rise. However, it will take a long period of time. By that time, the hype will have died down, as will have the demand. Furthermore, the supply will have risen, as more people will have been doing treasure trails in hopes of obtaining a 2nd Age.

 

 

 

Solutions? I kind of like darkvictorabstract's idea of a Jagex price adaption team. \

[acenator]

 

 

 

If an item is worth 250k on the ge, and everyone uses the ge, buys at the max price for some while, then the item wil reach its normal price. However, the only way this happens is if people are junk trading. Ex>: 2nd age plate (making it up) is 60 mil. People JUNK TRADE IT,because of its high demand, AND THE PRICE STAYS 60 MIL. Its high demand raises the price to 70 MIL. The GE price is 60 mil, so NOBODY uses the ge and price stays the same. However, 2nd age plate is STILL GOING UP! Had every person trading used the ge, THE STREET PRICE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GE PRICE! The fact is,to remove this problem ENTIRELY, either we ban free trade completely and rely on the ge (not happening), we raise our membership price and allow Jagex to hire a full team of price adapters, adapting ge prices, or we ALLOW AND CONDONE JUNK TRADES at least for rare/high in demand items.

 

finaly someone realizes that. junk trading is pointless because if people would just sell max on get the price would go up to the junk price and you dont have to waste time getting junk to trade with.

 

Yeah, because everyone (that includes you) wants to sell something for millions less than what they know people are willing to pay for it and buy stuff for millions more than what they know people are willing to sell them for. Yeah, that's exactly how all this works.[/sarcasm] You can go ahead and use the GE for all these items that junk trades are being used on if you want, but anyone with any sense at all would avoid selling/buying at these bogus prices and ripping themselves off just to try and fix a price that could easily fly out of the GE's range again with the next update.

[NukeMarine]

It's going to be hilarious when Jagex removes the price floors, thereby making "Junk Trading" completely impossible. Have NO doubt, Jagex will remove the price floors in time. Guess we'll have that same wave of "I'm REALLY, REALLY, SUPER DOUBLE SERIOUSLY quitting now" posts in response to that too.

 

 

 

Again, I'll say junk trading is completely legal. You're using Jagex prices and Jagex rules. Just don't expect it to be long lived.

[green9090]

It's going to be hilarious when Jagex removes the price floors, thereby making "Junk Trading" completely impossible. Have NO doubt, Jagex will remove the price floors in time. Guess we'll have that same wave of "I'm REALLY, REALLY, SUPER DOUBLE SERIOUSLY quitting now" posts in response to that too.

 

 

 

Again, I'll say junk trading is completely legal. You're using Jagex prices and Jagex rules. Just don't expect it to be long lived.

 

That wouldn't kill it- people still need to actually trade them on the GE. There are tons of summoning pouches that won't move because NOBODY has a use for them (think spirit dagganoth- no good use, no shard trade-in value). Also, consider items erroneously linked to their constituent parts, such as adamant arrows (p++). There are probably plenty of those for people to find and use.

[benar]

I'm still convinced that what we have here is blatant negligence on Jagex's part; there's been plenty of rants on the RSOF's.

 

 

 

There really is no economic harm in trading like this, because it's only trying to get around what harm has already been done (broken prices). This doesn't have to be agreed upon, but it's been established. With all that said, the issue for most players lies in the convenience of junk trading, because obviously it's easier to pay the right price with the cash you have, than to round up the junk... and that's not to say people should accept the priced set down by the GE, but just that the priced need a fix.

[acenator]

I'm still convinced that what we have here is blatant negligence on Jagex's part; there's been plenty of rants on the RSOF's.

 

 

 

There really is no economic harm in trading like this, because it's only trying to get around what harm has already been done (broken prices). This doesn't have to be agreed upon, but it's been established. With all that said, the issue for most players lies in the convenience of junk trading, because obviously it's easier to pay the right price with the cash you have, than to round up the junk.

 

Exactly. And there is already a solution that has been suggested countless times (use uncompleted trades to help adjust prices instead of just completed trades and remove all the price caps). This might not end the need for junk trading completely (prices might have a hard time keeping up with the market), but it would at least make sure the prices did adjust so that people would have a chance to buy/sell these items for just plain cash without getting ripped off.

[benar]

A possible solution I've been speculating lately is based on theory, but only because there are details that I need confirmed... if I'm right though, this might work:

 

 

 

Ok, so if the set prices are determined by the buying and selling record on the GE, then it's obvious why some items are broken the way they are. Nobody wants to buy them on the GE, so that makes the demand low. This keeps those items at the low price. Sooo, if people swallow their pride and start buying and selling those items again on the GE, then that would balance out the supply and demand until the prices fixed themselves do to the active trading record on the GE.

 

 

 

I think...

[child_sycopath]

I'm glad people have found a way around the trade limit, Tbh I really hate the limit, I miss being able to help people out with Afew hundred thousand, I was a very generous person before the limit, I've been known to give away 5m+ stuff for somones birthday, But now i cant even give away a measly 30k.

 

I think its fine, Its a good thing, Not against the rules, The values of the things are the same, So it doesnt really matter. lul.

 

 

 

I think that if the selling / buying record on the GE for a particular item is very low, It should gradualy go down in price until the buy records increase. And if the buy record is very high, Keep it high. Lol.

[acenator]

A possible solution I've been speculating lately is based on theory, but only because there are details that I need confirmed... if I'm right though, this might work:

 

 

 

Ok, so if the set prices are determined by the buying and selling record on the GE, then it's obvious why some items are broken the way they are. Nobody wants to buy them on the GE, so that makes the demand low. This keeps those items at the low price. Sooo, if people swallow their pride and start buying and selling those items again on the GE, then that would balance out the supply and demand until the prices fixed themselves do to the active trading record on the GE.

 

 

 

I think...

 

Swallow their pride?!?! More like swallow their money. Seriously, people, just having everyone use the GE would mean tons of people losing a ton of money. Not to mention that prices could easily fly back out of the GE's range with the next update.

 

 

 

This situation was created by the people at Jagex and they're the only ones who can and should fix it.

[benar]

Again, it would probably mean the repair of these broken prices, if indeed the priced are based on the supply and demand record of the GE.

 

 

 

The controversy with that I believe is whether or not doing so would be worth the money loss. We do want the prices to be fixed...

[acenator]

Again, it would probably mean the repair of these broken prices, if indeed the priced are based on the supply and demand record of the GE.

 

 

 

The controversy with that I believe is whether or not doing so would be worth the money loss. We do want the prices to be fixed...

 

Of course we want prices to be fixed, but we weren't the ones to break them. Jagex was. So why should we be forced to fix something that wasn't broken by us, at our own loss, in a way that leaves it open for prices to just break again?

[benar]

Thats why doing something like that is an important decision. We have no idea why jagex hasn't fixed the prices yet, or if they even intend to. Thats why I'm only prospecting the idea. It would also be hard to call into action enough people to use the GE in order to fix the prices. It's possible though.

[acenator]

Thats why doing something like that is an important decision. We have no idea why jagex hasn't fixed the prices yet, or if they even intend to. Thats why I'm only prospecting the idea. It would also be hard to call into action enough people to use the GE in order to fix the prices. It's possible though.

 

You don't need to prospect the idea. There aren't enough people out there willing to lose millions, probably hundreds of millions, to do it. Anyone with enough money to help fix this is 1: responsible with money, and therefore not going to just throw it away and 2: able to junk trade without much of a hassle and therefore probably doesn't really care if prices are fixed or not.

[benar]

Well then I'd like to see everyone compiling and comparing as many solutions as possible. I don't care how much loss they'd come with, I just want to hear them.

[acenator]

Well then I'd like to see everyone compiling and comparing as many solutions as possible. I don't care how much loss they'd come with, I just want to hear them.

 

There are already several ideas that would help the situation and, when put together, probably fix everything.

 

 

 

First off, alow prices to adjust from uncompleted trades as well as completed trades. If there are a ton of sell offers at min, but none/very few are being completed, then lower the price. If there are a bunch of buy offers at max, but none/very few are being completed, then raise the price.

 

 

 

Second, remove all price caps and "dependencies" (where the price of an items depends on the price of another item(s)) to allow what is currently junk to adjust to prices where it will sell and therefore no longer be junk.

 

 

 

Third, let players determine the prices of new items. Allow for new items to be traded freely for a few days until the price settles down, let the GE adjust to what supply and demand say they're worth, and then put the +/- 5% rule back up. Or at least set the GE prices fairly high (depending on the item) and let the prices adjust at a much faster rate (maybe start at 50% and slowly work back down to 5%).

 

 

 

And, finally, get a few people to go in and manually change prices (which they say they have already) that are way off of the prices at which items are being traded for on the "street." It seriously doesn't take much to look at the forums and what's happening on the GE (such as how many trades are going uncompleted at max/min price) and change the prices accordingly. If prices are still wrong, then observe a bit more and try again.

 

 

 

Is that what you were looking for? Because, seriously, why would we have to throw away a bunch of our time and money to [temporarily] fix something that was broken by Jagex and could easily be fixed by them in such a way that the problem would be, for the most part (there might be a few short periods of time during which prices could go off some, but, with te system itself fixed, would fix themsleves fairly quickly), completely gone?

[green9090]

Again, it would probably mean the repair of these broken prices, if indeed the priced are based on the supply and demand record of the GE.

 

 

 

The controversy with that I believe is whether or not doing so would be worth the money loss. We do want the prices to be fixed...

 

Here's why this solution is completely worthless.

 

 

 

Let's say I have a hypothetical item worth 100mil on the street and 10mil in the GE. I want to sell it, and have the junk ready from past junk trades. Your idea would have me put it on the GE and WASTE 90mil. And then the price would (hypothetically, but probably not) go up 5%, which is 500k. So now the item is 10.05mil on the GE, and I DON'T EVEN HAVE THE ITEM ANYMORE. It's not like there's going to be a next time I sell it, it's gone. After my item is gone I don't care what the price is, because it doesn't affect me anymore.

 

 

 

Yeah, really fantastic idea there.

[benar]

See, I don't understand why people get so infuriated just about ideas... try having a chat about philosophy with me some time. Anyway, I didn't say we should do that, I said it would be a way to fix the current state of things.

 

 

 

So, lets see somebody else come up with more ideas.

[acenator]

See, I don't understand why people get so infuriated just about ideas... try having a chat about philosophy with me some time. Anyway, I didn't say we should do that, I said it would be a way to fix the current state of things.

 

 

 

So, lets see somebody else come up with more ideas.

 

Did you not read my post? I had 4 ideas on how to make the GE better.

 

 

 

And whether or not you specifically said we should just use the GE to fix prices that way or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that it wouldn't work because all it would do is make a bunch of people lose a ton of money without any guarantees that the prices won't move too fast for the GE and leave it useless for said items all over again just forcing people to lose even more money fixing it again. And what isn't going to work doesn't need discussing.

 

 

 

Several people have shown that getting people to just use the GE won't work, and have been advocating the use of uncompleted trades in determining prices and other ideas that would work to help fix the situation without hurting anyone since the start, but those ideas don't seem to be getting much attention at all. Maybe before telling us to come up with more ideas, you should try reading your own thread. I'm sorry if that sounded rude, but I can't stand people telling me to do something that's already been done.