issy2 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 There's been a story in the news recently about 17-year old Majid Ahmed, who at 16 got a criminal record for breaking into a derelict shop. The conviction was later 'spent', and he got 4 A's at A-level, and spent his spare time doing voluntary work with children and at surgeries, got into Imperial College to study medicine - and was turned away because of his (spent) conviction. He was "overwhelmed with anger" and has the media and lawyers working on his side to get his place back. Do you think that people can never lose traits? My mum says she wouldn't want a doctor with a criminal record, understandably, but is it possible to change the kinds of things you do, the kind of people you hang around with, especially in such a short space of time? I was wondering what you think of this. my family has been talking about it a lot, with very divided opinions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragoonson Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 You can remove bad traits after time,but not in a year.The university is right in turing him down.It takes a minute to realise your wrongs,but it can take a lifetime to correct them,especially if you have a horringible attitude. so i herd u liek devarts?If you look at me and feel offended by my 666-ism,think.I could be just as offended by your "cross".[hide=This's why I'm hot]The Eleventh Commandment:Thou Shalst only say "Amen,brother".Amen, brother :lol:Amen, brudda (referring to the 10th commandment)amen Bruder! (german ftw)I'm invulnerable to everything, except Lenin and Dragoonson.That's impossible. I love people.[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieMcD Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 The university has every right to refuse him, it's their establishment after all. You can't correct your wrongs over the period of 1 year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issy2 Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 The university has every right to refuse him, it's their establishment after all. You can't correct your wrongs over the period of 1 year. I'm not so sure to be honest. I know these are only quotes and it's so easy to lie, but he was 'deeply ashamed' when he was arrested and vowed never to do that kind of thing again - which he hasn't, so far. He says he grew up 'surrounded by drugs and violence' and to be honest I think turning your life around because you have your heart set on something and are determined to go and get it is more of an achievement than getting four As... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragoonson Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 The university has every right to refuse him, it's their establishment after all. You can't correct your wrongs over the period of 1 year. I'm not so sure to be honest. I know these are only quotes and it's so easy to lie, but he was 'deeply ashamed' when he was arrested and vowed never to do that kind of thing again - which he hasn't, so far. He says he grew up 'surrounded by drugs and violence' and to be honest I think turning your life around because you have your heart set on something and are determined to go and get it is more of an achievement than getting four As... I grew up surrounded by failure,stupidity,smoking,gangs and that other things thats pretty bad.I'm more or less un-screwed up. so i herd u liek devarts?If you look at me and feel offended by my 666-ism,think.I could be just as offended by your "cross".[hide=This's why I'm hot]The Eleventh Commandment:Thou Shalst only say "Amen,brother".Amen, brother :lol:Amen, brudda (referring to the 10th commandment)amen Bruder! (german ftw)I'm invulnerable to everything, except Lenin and Dragoonson.That's impossible. I love people.[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 If criminals were allowed to let go because they "grew up surrounded by crime", prison would be pretty empty :: Guess the Movie Contest Champion: pfilc23 :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issy2 Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 If criminals were allowed to let go because they "grew up surrounded by crime", prison would be pretty empty I'm not saying he should be let off on that excuse, just that it shows alot of force of character and is a heck of an achievement to be able to turn your back on something you may have grown up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieMcD Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 The university has every right to refuse him, it's their establishment after all. You can't correct your wrongs over the period of 1 year. I'm not so sure to be honest. I know these are only quotes and it's so easy to lie, but he was 'deeply ashamed' when he was arrested and vowed never to do that kind of thing again - which he hasn't, so far. He says he grew up 'surrounded by drugs and violence' and to be honest I think turning your life around because you have your heart set on something and are determined to go and get it is more of an achievement than getting four As... I've grown up in a very poor area. When me and my friends get bored, we deliberately get the police after them for 15 minutes of fun. I occasionally use recreational drugs, I'm basically an alcoholic and I'm only 15. If I got caught in his position I wouldn't [cabbage] on about my upbringing, it's my fault for not accepting the risk that I might get caught while breaking into the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_man_army Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Let me clarify this, he got a burglary conviction after he met some people who 'hanging out' in a house they (not he) had broken into. Later, he went in with them and got busted with them. The judge accepted that he had little (but still some) fault in this and he was given an extremely light punishment because of that (I think it was a two month supervision order - zero prison time). The conviction was spent by the time he applied so he didn't legally have to declare it. He was then offered a place in Imperial College London after getting his exam results however, he later informed them of his spent conviction (which means it is not part of a criminal record) and they revoked the offer. In effect he is being punished for being too honest in this case, if he had just shut his mouth his application wouldn't have been revoked. The argument here boils down to two things; should we accept that, once somebody has carried out their punishment according to the law, that they have paid their debt to society? Secondly should one small infraction of the law when you are legally a minor be held against you for the duration of your life? Personally I think he was naive and stupid to do what he did but most 15 year olds are naive and do stupid things (despite the likely protests that will follow this post), to hold that against a guy who has worked his backside off to earn a place at one of the nation's top medical schools for a mistake and for being honest enough to disclose it, in my opinion, would be quite sad. Edit - Could I just point out that the incident he was convicted for was 3 years ago (2005) not the year ago that was mentioned by another poster. ------------------------- http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ce.ukcrime ^^ The person in question explains what happened in his own words. ------------------------- He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusqi Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I had sent with the appeal letters from my MP, local doctors that I had worked for, managers of charities that I have worked with, the principle at the sixth form I attended and the Bradford and Airedale PCT [Primary Care Trust], all of whom supported my appeal. I am surprised and disappointed, given all of those recommendations. I also don't have such a high opinion of doctors and other medical professionals that I would consider them pillars of society. They are intelligent and hard working, but in the end they're just in it for themselves like everyone else is. For it is the greyness of dusk that reigns.The time when the living and the dead exist as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam007 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I know your question is more about forgiveness, but medical schools are an exception. When you have such a large pool of applicants, you're going to filter out people with criminal records because there are always equally deserving people without them. But in general, should someone be forgiven if they've done service afterward? It's too hard to tell. Community service can sometimes just be hours of work that aren't necessarily representative of a person's character. In this guy's case, he knew he had to make up for what he did with community service. Knowing he had a chance of getting turned down for what he did, he tried compensating. It either just wasn't enough, or med schools just don't want people who ever had a record, regardless of how they've made up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 I better not tell my university next year I kicked a football against someone's car when I was 7. They might revoke my offer. -.- A PCRB (Police Criminal Records Bureau) check is mandatory to apply for Medicine in this country. It shows all convictions, all warnings, arrests and cautions you've ever had in life. The check is there to prevent doctors like Harold Shipman, or paedophiles, or thieves who'll channel drugs to the black market, from slipping through the net. If this didn't show up on his check, I see no reason why he can't be allowed into Medical School. There really is no exception to Medical School except for this criminal check. This is over the top... surely honesty is a key skill in being a good doctor? | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercifull Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Tough luck. He's gotta earn that respect back. People are too soft on young criminals these days. This is a worthy punishment. Mercifull <3 Suzi "We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megakiller32 Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 For him, i think he should be put on some kind of probation watch while hes at the university for a year, because if he got his 4 A's and community service work, thats impressive. But being turned away is a step too far. Quit Runescape 30th May 2006.Thanks to Hawkxs for my signature :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaN Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 How do the University know about the offense if he doesn't have a crimminal record? ~Dan64AuSince 27 Aug 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issy2 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 How do the University know about the offense if he doesn't have a crimminal record? Well I'm not exactly sure, but basically, he got a conviction for breaking into a derelict shop. By the time he applied for university, his conviction was 'spent' - this is when, after an offence, if other offences have been committed in a certain amount of time, it's removed from your criminal record. So in the end he told the university of his own accord (although that in itself is debatable) about his spent conviction, and they turned him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
____ Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 The medical board needs to up their game, if universities are denying people with the obvious talent based on minor run-ins with the law; registered doctors need to start having their licences stripped under similar circumstances. Overkill ftw much? :uhh: Fail university needs to get a reality check before lawyers rip them a new one in court over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhaperPlane Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Tough luck. He's gotta earn that respect back. People are too soft on young criminals these days. This is a worthy punishment. Amen! Imperial College is a very good university, my brother is considering of applying there to study medicine. :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadril Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 The medical board needs to up their game, if universities are denying people with the obvious talent based on minor run-ins with the law; registered doctors need to start having their licences stripped under similar circumstances. Overkill ftw much? :uhh: Fail university needs to get a reality check before lawyers rip them a new one in court over this. I have to agree with you. I can understand if it was a big offense, but to the looks of it it seems like he has changed. A lot of people make stupid decisions as a kid and later regret it. I, personally, hate that there are so many ways that your past can haunt you because of a previous screw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 He's already proven beyond doubt he's committed to a crimeless life and is already achieving top educational marks after paying his debts to society in the form of community service... What logical reason is there to deny him further education? If anything, being rejected from education drives people to crime. If you keep getting told "you have a criminal record so you can't study here", how are you going to earn a decent living if you're an average person? (Not talking about business of any sorts, just trying to find a job) Everyone is allowed one mistake. Any additional ones and you're screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assassin_696 Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Imperial College is such a competitive univeristy that there were probably several people like him, who'd worked identically hard and got identically good grades. There was probably very little to differentiate between him and other applicants, so when he declared his criminal offence suddenly there was a mark against him and he slipped below the rest. Is it fair? Probably not, but Imperial is such a respected university that they have every right to be as selective as they wish, especially for medicine. I'm not particularly surprised by their actions. "Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromagus Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 While I think that a criminal record could be a reason to deny an application, in this case it clearly wasn't the right thing to do. He had served his time and the crime wasn't even on his record, and they only kicked him out after he told them, which he didn't have to do. He obviously has the brains for it too. Fun fact: Thanks to the War on Drugs in America, someone with a homicide on their criminal record can still apply for a college scholarship, while someone with a drug-related felony is automatically denied one. My Tip.It Times Articles (10 and counting) || The Varrock Library Author Index projectDo you dare to dream? - Part 19 added. || The Hospital (WIP) - New story!Necromagus looks like a viking ... with glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadril Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 While I think that a criminal record could be a reason to deny an application, in this case it clearly wasn't the right thing to do. He had served his time and the crime wasn't even on his record, and they only kicked him out after he told them, which he didn't have to do. He obviously has the brains for it too. Fun fact: Thanks to the War on Drugs in America, someone with a homicide on their criminal record can still apply for a college scholarship, while someone with a drug-related felony is automatically denied one. The fact that he told them tells me he is putting it behind him instead of hiding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warren211 Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 I don't know which side I'm on at this point... On one hand, I certainly wouldn't want to have a doctor who had a criminal record, regardless if he made up for it. On the other hand, I'm sure that if I was the person turned down I would consider it unfair that I realized my error and worked to fix it and was still turned down. and on yet another hand the university has the right to refuse whoever they want for whatever rational reason. So I guess it depends on which perspective you look at. [hide=]tip it would pay me $500.00 to keep my clothes ON :( :lol:But then again, you fail to realize that 101% of the people in this universe hate you. Yes, humankind's hatred against you goes beyond mathematical possibilities.That tears it. I'm starting an animal rebellion using my mind powers. Those PETA bastards will never see it coming until the porcupines are half way up their asses.[/hide]Apparently a lot of people say it. I own. http://linkagg.com/ Not my site, but a simple, budding site that links often unheard-of websites that are amazing for usefulness and fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_man_army Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 How do the University know about the offense if he doesn't have a crimminal record? He volunteered the information as he felt that it was better to be honest, more fool him. He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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