I thought I made it clear that I didn't want to debate this w/ people like Tripsis who are already happy in a relationship. I'm mostly interested in discussing this w/ the single guys who think they need a monogamous relationship to be happy. Anyways...

 

I do give the benefit of the doubt to the people I know who are dating and monogamous, just because they don't have anything to lose if things go south and I enjoy seeing them happy together (even though in the back of my mind I'm not expecting it to remain that way for very long).

 

However, when men want to get married, that's when I can no longer offer them the benefit of the doubt. Men have a LOT to lose if their marriage doesn't work. Crossing your fingers and hoping that everything will work out isn't being optimistic; it's being stupid.

Marriage isn't stupid. You're still thinking one should consider themselves to have an 87% chance of failure. In marriage, one should not assume the chances are on one's side. One should take concrete action to ensure they are, and that starts by choosing the right partner. Some ideas are listed in the link in my previous post. Examples of people who are still madly in love after 20 years also included; their brains, when presented with a picture of their partners, behaved the same way the brains of people who just got in a relationship did, except areas linked to fear and anxiety were inactive.

 

Like I said last time we debated this about a week ago, it's not just the people or their personalities/biology/etc. It's the structure of monogamy that ultimately leads to failure.

 

I'd be interested in seeing a more in-depth explanation about what those couples' relationships are like. I have a feeling it's not the same as you'd imagine it to be.

You keep changing your numbers around muggi. First you said 2, then 3, now 5? Honestly it sounds like you're changing it according to the people that exist in this thread so you don't get disproven :P (it was 2 before I came and said I was in a 2+ year relationship) And as John said, all the scientific evidence I've seen says the "honeymoon phase" somewhere between 12 and 18 months.

 

I just don't wanna argue with people who are currently in the honeymoon phase because I don't really see the point. You're right that I changed the numbers around-- I should've just said "anyone currently not in the honeymoon phase." I figured 5 years was a safe number :P

 

If the honeymoon phase lasted forever, then relationships would never fail.

The bolded is categorically untrue. An enormous number of relationships fail before the honeymoon phase even ends; or even if it's barely begun.

 

And if you don't want to argue with people who "are still in the honeymoon phase", then we should refuse to argue with you until you've been in a long term relationship.

You keep changing your numbers around muggi. First you said 2, then 3, now 5? Honestly it sounds like you're changing it according to the people that exist in this thread so you don't get disproven :P (it was 2 before I came and said I was in a 2+ year relationship) And as John said, all the scientific evidence I've seen says the "honeymoon phase" somewhere between 12 and 18 months.

 

I just don't wanna argue with people who are currently in the honeymoon phase because I don't really see the point. You're right that I changed the numbers around-- I should've just said "anyone currently not in the honeymoon phase." I figured 5 years was a safe number :P

 

If the honeymoon phase lasted forever, then relationships would never fail.

The bolded is categorically untrue. An enormous number of relationships fail before the honeymoon phase even ends; or even if it's barely begun.

 

And if you don't want to argue with people who "are still in the honeymoon phase", then we should refuse to argue with you until you've been in a long term relationship.

 

Sounds fair to me :P

You keep changing your numbers around muggi. First you said 2, then 3, now 5? Honestly it sounds like you're changing it according to the people that exist in this thread so you don't get disproven :P (it was 2 before I came and said I was in a 2+ year relationship) And as John said, all the scientific evidence I've seen says the "honeymoon phase" somewhere between 12 and 18 months.

 

I just don't wanna argue with people who are currently in the honeymoon phase because I don't really see the point. You're right that I changed the numbers around-- I should've just said "anyone currently not in the honeymoon phase." I figured 5 years was a safe number :P

 

If the honeymoon phase lasted forever, then relationships would never fail.

The bolded is categorically untrue. An enormous number of relationships fail before the honeymoon phase even ends; or even if it's barely begun.

 

And if you don't want to argue with people who "are still in the honeymoon phase", then we should refuse to argue with you until you've been in a long term relationship.

 

Sounds fair to me :P

Then surely you admit that just as it's unfair for us to assume you aren't and can't be happy because you're not in a monogamous long-term relationship; it's unfair for you to assume we're doomed to life-long misery with our exclusive, long-term partner?

Then surely you admit that just as it's unfair for us to assume you aren't and can't be happy because you're not in a monogamous long-term relationship; it's unfair for you to assume we're doomed to life-long misery with our exclusive, long-term partner?

 

No you're not all doomed to life-long misery with your exclusive, long-term partner. I just don't think it's a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life.

Then surely you admit that just as it's unfair for us to assume you aren't and can't be happy because you're not in a monogamous long-term relationship; it's unfair for you to assume we're doomed to life-long misery with our exclusive, long-term partner?

 

No you're not all doomed to life-long misery with your exclusive, long-term partner. I just don't think it's a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life.

But you're not stating that from a position of experience and authority, that's my point. I personally don't think polyamory is a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life either; but I accept that it's entirely possible for you to find happiness in that as what you want and need in life may differ from my wants and needs. I also have never tried having multiple sexual partners in an open relationship.

@Muggi: your whole reasoning stems from the idea that there is one best way to produce happiness. Empirical evidence gives you a great understanding of how relationships in general work, and that supports the idea that alt relationships should be allowed. What it doesn't do is allow you to formulate a judgement about how one specific couple will behave. It allows you to have a lesser chance of making a mistake given a lambda couple, but no one's forcing you to judge.

Then surely you admit that just as it's unfair for us to assume you aren't and can't be happy because you're not in a monogamous long-term relationship; it's unfair for you to assume we're doomed to life-long misery with our exclusive, long-term partner?

 

No you're not all doomed to life-long misery with your exclusive, long-term partner. I just don't think it's a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life.

But you're not stating that from a position of experience and authority, that's my point. I personally don't think polyamory is a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life either; but I accept that it's entirely possible for you to find happiness in that as what you want and need in life may differ from my wants and needs. I also have never tried having multiple sexual partners in an open relationship.

 

I think it could also be argued that you're not necessarily qualified to argue in favor of monogamy either though. You've been in a relationship for 4.5 years, but if you're assuming you'll be together for the rest of your lives, you're still in the relationship's infancy. There's still lots left for you to experience... moving in together, getting married, having kids, etc.

Then surely you admit that just as it's unfair for us to assume you aren't and can't be happy because you're not in a monogamous long-term relationship; it's unfair for you to assume we're doomed to life-long misery with our exclusive, long-term partner?

 

No you're not all doomed to life-long misery with your exclusive, long-term partner. I just don't think it's a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life.

But you're not stating that from a position of experience and authority, that's my point. I personally don't think polyamory is a wise path to choose if you want to be happy for the rest of your life either; but I accept that it's entirely possible for you to find happiness in that as what you want and need in life may differ from my wants and needs. I also have never tried having multiple sexual partners in an open relationship.

 

I think it could also be argued that you're not necessarily qualified to argue in favor of monogamy either though. You've been in a relationship for 4.5 years, but if you're assuming you'll be together for the rest of your lives, you're still in the relationship's infancy. There's still lots left for you to experience... moving in together, getting married, having kids, etc.

 

And vice versa, you're still in the infancy of your polyamorous lifestyle. I can do this all day :P

But polyamorous relationships' lifespans are very short. Some are just one night stands. They all come and go very fast.

He means in a greater sense - not each individual relationship. i.e. maybe a few years down the road you'll get tired of all the one night stands. Maybe they won't make you happy any more.

It's not the relationships that make me happy. I make me happy. Relationships in general, regardless of what kind, aren't essential ingredients for happiness.

 

They all have their ups and downs. I just believe that monogamy has much steeper ups and downs with much higher odds of leaving you less happy in the long run.

They're not essential for happiness, but they certainly can contribute to it.

Yup

Having a polyamorous lifestyle isn't necessary for happiness either.

nvm

Ok, ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC:

Gonna ask a girl out on Valentines' Day. She is in a parallel class for me, so we meet in school really often and we'll be having ice-skating together on Valentines' Day. After that we are free, and she normally otherwise doesn't have free time. Now I have the chance to finally give her the b'day presents I brought from Sweden way back in January, so there is no fail for me in here. Gonna get her out at least once, but I am afraid we ain't getting into a couple, since neither of us really has time for a relationship...

^What's the issue exactly?

Muggi, if you didn't desire relationships for happiness, then why would you even pursue them to begin with? Do you at least agree that there is a difference in happiness between a state when poly satisfies you and when it doesn't? Do you think that in such a state, you would be satisfied with no relationship at all?

Muggi, you're preaching the Bible in a Mosque. You won't convince most people in this thread.

 

However, I do believe you have a point, seeing that today's society allows an individual to be independent enough from others to procure almost anything they need or want through money. The problem though is that we are still a gregarious species, that prefers to live as couples due to tradition and mentality. Because of this reason, people marry nowadays; whoever disagrees with this succumbs to pressure and eventually marries, or becomes a pariah in society (one day, you will succumb to this too, Muggi, don't forget that). If the mentality of society doesn't change to accept polyamorous lifestyles, then the advantages of being in polyamorous relationships are diminished, because of the anxiety and depression that arises will make a polyamorous individual a lot less content.

 

By the way, some might disagree, but this is probably the most interesting discussion I've seen on this thread.

Did you seriously just say that all people succumb and get married one day?

Did you seriously just say that all people succumb and get married one day?

Not quite, I said that people either become married or become outcasts.

Almost 1/3 of people in the US are single(~100,000,000). 61% have never been married (~61,000,000). 17% are over 65(~170,000).

 

No longer are singles outcasts. One in five people has never been married.

I suppose this question is aimed at muggi, because I am interested in his response, but anyone feel free to weigh in:

 

Do you think that a history of divorce (or lack therof) in the histories of the partners families might have an impact on the success of a monogamous relationship. The reason I fight so much with your idea is that there has never been a divorce in my mother or fathers family in living memory, and only one remarriage when a partner died. As far as I can tell, they all still love each other and are happy with each other, with one exception in an older cousin who would be my generation (and if I had to pick an unhappy marriage in either family, it would be her parents, and her husband is navy which brings a lot more stress into it. Frankly, I think he hates being around her, and they never should have married in the first place). My current partners family is in exactly the same position, with no known history of divorce. In fact, the longest running current marriage in that family is 60 years. It's pretty hard to beat that since someone normally dies by 85.

 

I guess the part I can't know for sure is that everyone is happy, but my observations can see signs of strain in only one couple, so I'm going to assume that everyone above me in my genetic line (so parents, aunts and uncles and up) are all still happy. In all honesty, the concept of divorce is actually pretty foreign to me. I've never seen it, and I don't think I know anyone who has. This promted me to look at the canadian divorce stats, and where the hell did you get an over 80% divorce rate from?

 

The one I would be interested in is:

The percentage of marriages in a given year that will end in divorce before their 30th wedding anniversary has increased slightly from 36.1 per cent in 1998 to 37.9 per cent in 2004.

Also, that seems to be the last year we have any published stats for, which is why I am using fairly old numbers. I imagine its climbed a bit higher since then, though I doubt its cracked 45% yet. I'm not really interested in remarriage stats. Not until I have a relationship that fails because of age (I don't do distance relationships, which has killed all of them thus far).

 

So monogamy does seem to work for more people than you give it credit for. Yes, some people are unhappy, and don't get a divorce, but its not fair to assume that there are all these unhappy couple out there. This begs the question, what is your experience. If I had to guess, I would say that your family, and the families of your friends have had a lot of unhappy marriages and/or divorces for you to be so against it. Am I close?

 

 

I'm not going to spend much time arguing with the people who are currently in the honeymoon phase of their relationships; their emotions aren't the same right now as they will be in a year or two for now

 

But to those who are on the fence or don't really have strong beliefs on the issue, they're more interesting to discuss this with considering they're more open-minded and less biased about it.

 

 

woah woah woah dude. people don't agree with you and you're calling them less open-minded and bias?

 

sheesh.

 

I thought I made it clear that I didn't want to debate this w/ people like Tripsis who are already happy in a relationship. I'm mostly interested in discussing this w/ the single guys who think they need a monogamous relationship to be happy. Anyways...

 

I'm single. I'm "open minded". Let's discuss while I'm ultimately pro-monogamy [even though I advocate open relationships for those who feel it is apropriate]

 

Why is that? Because all people are individuals. We're all the different. And because we're all different, you will never have the same relationship twice [even with the same two people involved]. To place a "standard" on a relationship is asinine. How you act and feel in a relationship is completely dependent on the people involved and their interpretation on what they feel is right for their conjoined situation. Do I need a monogamous relationship to be "truly happy" ? I don't really think so. I'm fairly happy at the moment just hooking up with girls and doing whatever. I'm not thrilled about it, but I'm not like depressed or anything. I'm just taking it for what it is and having fun. Cause life is pointless without fun and you can only play the hand that's dealt to you.

 

I agree with you - emotional states change. But you imply it as if it acts as a switch from "honeymoon relationship" to "boredom" to "single". It's not like that. People change every second. Every thought they think, every experience they encounter at every living moment - it changes you. And it all adds up.

 

Yeah; some day I want to get married. I want to have 2 sons and a daughter. I want to name my first son after my grandfather. I want to live in a suburb. I want to wake up, put on a tie, drink some shitty coffee and watch my wife make breakfast for my kids.

 

And if you don't understand the satisfaction that brings a man, I doubt you understand manhood at all.

Not looking to hijack the thread, but here's my story:

 

So 3 years ago, this girl and I fell for each other. I broke her heart, because I wanted freedom. I then came to regret it, but naturally, she had moved on. She had a boyfriend. Then, I embarked on a journey to win her back. She's told me countless times that she loves me in a way that she will never feel for her current boyfriend, but refuses to break up with him. She says her mind wants him, but her heart wants me. I've spent the last 2 years waiting. And now I feel closer than ever to her. But each time we get close, she cuts off communication with me. Then she will reappear all of the sudden and the cycle starts over..

 

What do i do?