I'm unsure how the above advice fails to help someone be informed of their position. It might not help the position, but you at least have to recognise it first.

 

Girls, jobs, opportunities... they don't just land on your lap because you're rich/good looking/talented/lucky. You have to go and get them. I'm also an advocate of "man up", the only difference is I usually say it in a more sensitive and less personal way.

People come here looking for "how-to" advice, and they're not entirely wrong to do so. Most of the time people are aware of their lack of confidence, so they need a routine they can use as a crutch. If someone asks you how to talk to their crush, you're not helping if you just tell them to go talk to their crush. That part is assumed, as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree. The most efficient way to conquer a fear is to experience it fully, without resistance.

 

If a guy talks to his crush, [bleep]s up completely, and realizes that it's not the end of the world, he won't be paralyzed with fear next time a similar opportunity arises.

 

Gotta take risks to get what you want. Most people are unwilling to do that. Most people choose unhappiness over uncertainty.

we are so meta

At that point you don't need any more advice/knowledge... just more experience, confidence, and skill. And no amount of advice can give you that.

 

I think most people in this thread are at that point. :P

@Muggi: Sure, but most advice asked here is in the short term, not long. People are asking about a specific person, not about their happiness in the long run. If you tell them to run headfirst into it and pretty much actively seek rejection they'll have a oneitis-esque reflex and they won't listen.

And that's why the same people keep having the same problems :P

@Muggi: Sure, but most advice asked here is in the short term, not long. People are asking about a specific person, not about their happiness in the long run. If you tell them to run headfirst into it and pretty much actively seek rejection they'll have a oneitis-esque reflex and they won't listen.

That's sort of the reason we can't give advice other than "grow a pair". We have no idea who the person in question is, what they're like, what their hobbies are, or how they'll respond to anything but simply asking them.

...We are older than a lot of people here, though. I'm 22, for instance, not 16-19. Isn't that part of growing up; becoming more comfortable with your own identity and how you present that with more confidence to other people?

 

It's very easy for us to say, "Be yourself, and if they don't like you, stuff 'em, because plenty of other people do/will do in the future, and it's pointless going through life trying to be liked by everyone." Even if that's right, it's not so hard to see why others can't appreciate it.

I mean, it's pretty straightforward:

 

-Take the difficult, yet legitimate advice and benefit from it (though not necessarily in the short-term)

or

-Take the easy, yet useless advice and stagnate from it

 

The difference between the inexperienced people here and the other inexperienced people their age are: The ones visiting this thread at least know what they should be doing. And that's half of the solution right there. The other half is actually doing it. The idiom, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" comes to mind.

 

Other people their age don't even know what they're supposed to do. Or they think they know what they're supposed to do, but they couldn't be more wrong.

 

 

Yes, there's a very high chance that most good advice will be ignored/disregarded. But that's not our problem, that's theirs. And just because the person asking questions didn't want to follow that advice, doesn't mean that other people lurking this thread won't benefit from it.

It's quite fun to lurk in this thread. Always getting so philosophical over the tiniest details.

Needless to say, I am still single and without a hope, but I haven't actually even started looking for something. Life's been too busy this month. After that, I think I'mma have to start regularly posting again... :D

I lurk this thread just to laugh at some of the responses and get advice to use myself from the rest.

But that's not our problem, that's theirs.

This is not the way to think about this. They came for help. That's not our responsibility to begin with. Sure, people would be better off taking this advice, but if we want to help them we have to work with their irrational behaviour.

If a person refuses to ask people out they will probably never date (or barely date). No-one can help you do well with relationships if you never take that first step.

 

 

In other news, it turned out that strange message was because said person is random as heck and was referencing a movie out of nowhere for no reason. In short, it was my habit of overthinking every damn thing acting up again.

On that note, am I the only one who finds overthinking things to be incredibly damaging to his ability to flirt/etc? It's hard to be natural and such when your mind has a tendency to try to run through every possibility when stressed like it's a game of chess. Whether it's a person I'm interested in or just friendly with, if I'm not close enough to them to feel comfortable my overthinking tends to make me awkward as hell. Which is probably why girls who meet me at parties tend to like me more, because once I'm at a party for more than an hour adrenaline and stress short circuit my brain a bit and impair my ability to overthink, allowing me to actually be spontaneous and charismatic (when I don't do anything obscenely stupid that pisses people off).

 

 

...If this post doesn't make sense I apologize but I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and it's almost 1 am.

But that's not our problem, that's theirs.

This is not the way to think about this. They came for help. That's not our responsibility to begin with. Sure, people would be better off taking this advice, but if we want to help them we have to work with their irrational behaviour.

This would sound very good in a Powerpoint presentation, but how does this work when you try apply it to practice? Surely we both agree that, if your original position is correct, there isn't much room for maneuver if the other person can't see the wisdom. All you can do is explain why you feel that advice is best, and ask if there's a good reason the other person feels otherwise. Sometimes, there will be good reasons why.

 

But if that reason is because they basically don't have the balls go do it, then the advice is "grow a pair", not "Well... OK then. Wallowing in self-pity is clearly advantageous in the long-term". Most proverbs have another proverb which directly contradicts them, but is this really the case for 'Nothing ventured, nothing gained'?

 

@TTanT: I think that's half of what I meant by growing up and becoming more confident. To be blunt, in practical terms, I don't have enough time to think through every case of human contact I have these days. I'm on a busy course, I work outside of that course and I'm also involved in societies at the university. What limited spare time I have I spend gaming/keeping in touch with family back home/TIFing. Added to that I know generally that more people 'like' me as a person than not, which makes it a bit easier to stay calm in situations where younger GW might have been more frazzled, because I was more self-conscious and not keeping myself busy enough.

Defaulting to an aggressive/apathetic teaching style is a mark of laziness. If that is your go-to strategy for education, you shouldn't be trying to do it. People who just say "stop being beta" or "grow a pair" are annoyingly unproductive despite the fact that they think they're doing a service.

I'm not sure you can really generalise my default educational style from one very specific scenario with very specific advice. People who lambast other people's style without offering alternatives are equally unproductive, if not more so, and almost definitely more annoying for it.

I think that was a general you, replaceable by "one".

 

But that's not our problem, that's theirs.

This is not the way to think about this. They came for help. That's not our responsibility to begin with. Sure, people would be better off taking this advice, but if we want to help them we have to work with their irrational behaviour.

This would sound very good in a Powerpoint presentation, but how does this work when you try apply it to practice?

Like this:

As I said a few pages back, I've found the best way to go on a 'date' is to mention something cool you're doing halfway through the conversation, and tell her she can tag along towards the end of it.

But no-one saying we shouldn't give advice on how to ask people out, flirting, or any of that. The point is that if a person says "I like x girl, what do I do?" the best advice is to tell him to ask her out. No matter how smooth you are, most girls won't take the initiative with dating. You can try to talk a poster into getting over their fear and asking them out, but online that's pretty hard because everyone responds differently.

A person like me can be driven into something very easily by just being told he's being a coward because I have a prideful streak and I'll be annoyed into cooperating. But another person will just be discouraged by that same aggression. However a take on advice that would work on a person like that would likely do little to encourage me or a third person who has their own set of reactions.

 

Also I'm pretty sure getting over your fear is something you have to get the strength for from within. Everyone has that strength, it's just some people require more insentive or prodding than others.

I'm not sure you can really generalise my default educational style from one very specific scenario with very specific advice. People who lambast other people's style without offering alternatives are equally unproductive, if not more so, and almost definitely more annoying for it.

 

I'm simply explaining why that type of advice isn't helpful, since that's what the topic was on. I was not criticizing you, so let's lay off the not-so-subtle digs. :P

Perhaps I was too harsh.

 

I don't think "grow a pair" is appropriate advice for all people simply wanting a girlfriend. There may be other obstacles in the way which require different plans to overcome. The person in question may, in fact, be really confident and outgoing but simply not have a clue otherwise. You shouldn't tell someone advice that plainly either. "You'll never know unless you ask" would be far more effective, even if it's more or less the same point being made. If it was 'real life' you'd be more able to judge from body language and intuition how aggressive you should be in order to make the point as effective as possible.

 

All niceties aside though, it's pretty well established that gradual exposure to fearful situations is the best way of overcoming that fear. Which is why the point, however blunt or otherwise it sounds, still needs to be made. We can coach people on here 'til the cows come home, they'll still need to do it for themselves in the end.

 

I think that was a general you, replaceable by "one".

 

[hide=Quote pyramid]

But that's not our problem, that's theirs.

This is not the way to think about this. They came for help. That's not our responsibility to begin with. Sure, people would be better off taking this advice, but if we want to help them we have to work with their irrational behaviour.

This would sound very good in a Powerpoint presentation, but how does this work when you try apply it to practice?

[/hide]

Like this:

As I said a few pages back, I've found the best way to go on a 'date' is to mention something cool you're doing halfway through the conversation, and tell her she can tag along towards the end of it.

That's not addressing the same problem. That's somebody asking for a 'hook' to start a conversation on, not whether they should make the first move.

 

It goes back to what people were saying about wanting affirmation rather than advice. It's not ours to give.

Simply put, I don't consider it "lazy" to quit offering advice to posters who refuse to try the given advice. I consider it holding them accountable. The people who ask for advice and ignore it are the lazy ones.

 

The difference between here and a traditional teaching environment (e.g. a classroom; a private instructor; a business mentor) is that the teachers are paid for those services. It's their job to keep trying to teach people. They actually have an obligation to keep "trying," regardless of how stubborn or lazy their student is. And if the student chooses to ignore the advice, there are actual immediate consequences for that.

If a person refuses to ask people out they will probably never date (or barely date). No-one can help you do well with relationships if you never take that first step.

 

 

In other news, it turned out that strange message was because said person is random as heck and was referencing a movie out of nowhere for no reason. In short, it was my habit of overthinking every damn thing acting up again.

On that note, am I the only one who finds overthinking things to be incredibly damaging to his ability to flirt/etc? It's hard to be natural and such when your mind has a tendency to try to run through every possibility when stressed like it's a game of chess. Whether it's a person I'm interested in or just friendly with, if I'm not close enough to them to feel comfortable my overthinking tends to make me awkward as hell. Which is probably why girls who meet me at parties tend to like me more, because once I'm at a party for more than an hour adrenaline and stress short circuit my brain a bit and impair my ability to overthink, allowing me to actually be spontaneous and charismatic (when I don't do anything obscenely stupid that pisses people off).

 

 

...If this post doesn't make sense I apologize but I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and it's almost 1 am.

 

Meditation fixes that... the ability to turn off the chatter in your mind when you need to because it's not helping you at all is a useful skill to develop.

I propose we work on a base line guide to relationship building in different scenarios.

Chapter 1: confidence

Chapter 2: expression

Chapter 3: social skills & tips

etc

 

IamDan already has a guide to flirting, which I know a few people have reported as being useful, I think as a pooled effort we could really make something happen. Obviously everyone's situation will call up specifics that can not be generalized in a book or guide, but that's why we're here. But Ginger has been on this thread longer than I have, and even I have racked up a solid 5-6 years of experience on this thread. We could do TIF a great service.

I'd rather just send them to other sites where they can get more "professional" advice.