Today...

[The_Gabe]

 

I finished touring Israel with the group I was with, and now I'm at my grandmother's house in Tel Aviv. Just as soon as we came back from the supermarket, we heard the sirens. We went to the shelter, and heard 3 loud booms overhead of the Iron Dome blowing up missiles aimed at Tel Aviv. #OfficiallyinIsrael

I'm sure you know but if you don't make sure you get that app thing.

 

I don't have data here so I'd have to use wifi. It's easier just to hear the sirens.

[jasignhagj]

I finished touring Israel with the group I was with, and now I'm at my grandmother's house in Tel Aviv. Just as soon as we came back from the supermarket, we heard the sirens. We went to the shelter, and heard 3 loud booms overhead of the Iron Dome blowing up missiles aimed at Tel Aviv. #OfficiallyinIsrael

 

How is the flight situation? I've heard a lot of flights in and out of Israel have been cancelled due to the rockets.

[The_Gabe]

 

I finished touring Israel with the group I was with, and now I'm at my grandmother's house in Tel Aviv. Just as soon as we came back from the supermarket, we heard the sirens. We went to the shelter, and heard 3 loud booms overhead of the Iron Dome blowing up missiles aimed at Tel Aviv. #OfficiallyinIsrael

 

How is the flight situation? I've heard a lot of flights in and out of Israel have been cancelled due to the rockets.

 

 

 

I finished touring Israel with the group I was with, and now I'm at my grandmother's house in Tel Aviv. Just as soon as we came back from the supermarket, we heard the sirens. We went to the shelter, and heard 3 loud booms overhead of the Iron Dome blowing up missiles aimed at Tel Aviv. #OfficiallyinIsrael

 

How is the flight situation? I've heard a lot of flights in and out of Israel have been cancelled due to the rockets.

 

I got here on the 16th so it wasn't too bad. The group I was with left this morning with El Al airlines instead of U.S airways because they figured it would get cancelled so they rebooked to El Al since that is an Israeli airline. They took off 40 minutes before the rocket attacks. 

[Estonian dude]

That thing ain't that much to do with religion as it is with the state of Israel as it is. Created violently after World War II in the Palestinian lands, and after what the Israelis do to the Palestinians it ain't much wonder.

[RpgGamer]

Saq is just asking to get flamed. 

 

Good to know your safe Gabe, even in the semi-war zone.

[Jonanananas]

That thing ain't that much to do with religion as it is with the state of Israel as it is. Created violently after World War II in the Palestinian lands, and after what the Israelis do to the Palestinians it ain't much wonder.

First of all, while Israel has done some atrocious things in its supposed self-defense, that statement is way too simplistic.

 

As for religion, of course it does matter a lot here. It's not the original cause, but it further enflames the conflict. If the citizens of Israel had been muslims from the start, there still would've been riots, death, war I believe...but not on the scale we see here... And by now, the conflict might already be solved.

 

Gabe, I wish a safe trip. Let's hope there will be a ceasefire soon.

[Tim]

Just got home from my first job interview in a year, at French Connection.

 

I find out later today if I got the job. NERVOUS. AS. [bleep].

 

EDIT: Didn't get it.

[Low Levelled]

Neither side has my sympathy and if it were up to me they wouldn't have my tax money either.

Isolationism at its finest.

[The_Gabe]

People seriously buy into propoganda too much. I honestly do not even want to start another argument about the conflict. 

[Estonian dude]

The jews are occupying Palestine. That is a fact.

There is not a single other way anyone in the Gaza can make themselves heard than through rockets. That is pretty much a fact.

Jews are acting pretty much like Nazis did to them in WWII. Only ovens are missing.

[The_Gabe]

The jews are occupying Palestine. That is a fact.

There is not a single other way anyone in the Gaza can make themselves heard than through rockets. That is pretty much a fact.

Jews are acting pretty much like Nazis did to them in WWII. Only ovens are missing.

 

Quick History Lesson

 

 

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

 

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

 

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

 

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

 

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

 

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

 

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

 

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

 

9. In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

 

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and slaughter.

 

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

 

12. Arab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

 

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

 

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

 

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

 

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

 

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

 

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

 

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

 

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

 

Now, in 2005, the Israeli government forced Israelis to leave Gaza and gave control over to the Palestinians. Instead of using all the infrastracture left by the Israelis, they distroyed it or used it for terror. When the world cried that Israel is an opporessor because it did not allow concrete into Gaza, Israel gave to international pressure and eased the blockade. What happened with the concrete? Was it used for schools, houses, hospitals, and other useful infrustrature? No. It was used to build tunnels.

 

During operation Protective Edge, there were already 2-3 sieze fires. Israel stopped, and Hamas continued. 

 

It is incredibly difficult to target the Hamas terrorists in the Gaza strip since they use Hospitals, schools (EVEN A FREAKING UNITED NATIONS SCHOOL), mosques, and civilian houses to store weapons and hide. When Israel is going to strike a house, they warn the civilians. On the other hand, Hamas tells them to stay in their homes and ignore the warnings. 

 

A Palestinian ambassador called every single missle fired by Hamas a crime against humanity http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/07/24/hillel-neuer-palestinian-ambassador-called-hamas-missiles-a-crime-against-humanity-why-wont-the-un/

 

Israel has offered the Palestinians numerous very generous offers to create a Palestinian state. They refused all of them.

 

Hamas tells people to stay in their homes after they were warned, and when someone is killed, they say that Israel is intentially killing innocent civilians.

 

Palestinians voted for Hamas in a democratic election. They voted for a group with a charter that said that they want to distroy Israel and kill all the Jews.  And yet you have the audacity to compare the Jewish people to Nazis?

 

"Finally, we ask: If those who refuse to speak out for Palestinians—1800 Palestinians, if not more—who were starved to death, murdered, by Assad in Syria, but you only cry out when Israel can be blamed, then you are not pro human rights, you are only anti-Israel."

 

Why are we not talking about the constant massacres by ISIS? Or how Lebanon, Jordan, and other countries treat Palestinians as second class citizens? None of this is mentioned. 

 

This is all a propoganda war. It is a sad war.

 

As I was typing this, a siren went off so I had to go into the shelter and hear the blowing up of rockets above me. 

[Estonian dude]

You take it through religion yet again. Islam more or less is based on the Bible and Thora (don't know how the Jewish main book is spelt in English). Jerusalem as such is a holy city for them aswell. There is no way that muslims, true muslims all pray with backs against Jerusalem, they pray towards Mecca. Backs against Jerusalem can only be coincidental.

 

You say Jews have lived there for 3300 years, well Muslims have also lived there for more than a thousand. Most of that time they have gotten along more or less peacefully. Or well, without too much 

 

Now I don't deny that using those rockets is wrong, yet killing children is wrong. We are not talking about Syria or ISIS because they are or exist in failed states, without democracy or any real authorities. Israel is a highly developed country that should be able to make do with diplomacy. Yeah, 3 Israelis were found dead in the West Bank. How many die in car crashes or whatever? Shit happens, crazy people are everywhere, Breivik shot 70 children in Norway. You can't just abduct and burn a Muslim. It is the most desecrating possible way to die. Specially for an innocent teenager.

 

Now I don't know the background for previous offers by Israel, since I am too young to know too much background, I do know what are the current terms by Hamas for a 10-year ceasefire. They seem very reasonable. What isn't reasonable is being absolutely walled in in any direction. Gaza is pretty much a concentration camp, only without ovens. Pretty much noone is allowed in or out. Even fishing on the coast is not permitted. All the lands 2 kilometres from the wall to the inside are bulldozed, worthless shit, where nothing can be grown. 2 kilometres, when there is no room at all anyways.

 

There is no Hamas terrorist network as such. Gaza civilians support Hamas as an idea, because they are the only ones fighting for anything resembling human rights in the area.

 

Over on the West Bank, Jewish settlements occupy any area that has any economic benefit. Jews bathe in clean water and water their gardens in their walled-in settlements, while Palestinians outside struggle getting some for drinking. And don't come telling me that Jews let everyone to their holy places.

 

And there were reasons behing UN's decisions against Israel. You guys are way too [bleep]ing violent. You answer way unproportionally.

And don't come telling me occupying the whole Sinai was in any way started by the Egyptians. You attacked on their holy day.

 

TL;DR: Both sides have their own lunatics. In normal countries those lunatics are put into hospitals, yet there they are the ones in the government taking charges (or anything resembling a government).

[The_Gabe]

 

You take it through religion yet again. Islam more or less is based on the Bible and Thora (don't know how the Jewish main book is spelt in English). Jerusalem as such is a holy city for them aswell. There is no way that muslims, true muslims all pray with backs against Jerusalem, they pray towards Mecca. Backs against Jerusalem can only be coincidental.

 

You say Jews have lived there for 3300 years, well Muslims have also lived there for more than a thousand. Most of that time they have gotten along more or less peacefully. Or well, without too much 

 

Now I don't deny that using those rockets is wrong, yet killing children is wrong. We are not talking about Syria or ISIS because they are or exist in failed states, without democracy or any real authorities. Israel is a highly developed country that should be able to make do with diplomacy. Yeah, 3 Israelis were found dead in the West Bank. How many die in car crashes or whatever? Shit happens, crazy people are everywhere, Breivik shot 70 children in Norway. You can't just abduct and burn a Muslim. It is the most desecrating possible way to die. Specially for an innocent teenager.

When the three Israelis were kidnapped and killed, the Palestinians celebrated. When the Palestinian was killed, Israel condemned the killing and arrested those responsible. 

 

 

 

 

 

Now I don't know the background for previous offers by Israel, since I am too young to know too much background, I do know what are the current terms by Hamas for a 10-year ceasefire. They seem very reasonable. What isn't reasonable is being absolutely walled in in any direction. Gaza is pretty much a concentration camp, only without ovens. Pretty much noone is allowed in or out. Even fishing on the coast is not permitted. All the lands 2 kilometres from the wall to the inside are bulldozed, worthless shit, where nothing can be grown. 2 kilometres, when there is no room at all anyways.

 

I would agree to have the UN take over the area, but I would not end the blockade until the situation is under control. Ending the blockade means a lot more weapons flooding into Gaza.

 

 

 

   There is no Hamas terrorist network as such. Gaza civilians support Hamas as an idea, because they are the only ones fighting for anything resembling human rights in the area.

 

If Gaza civilians did not support Hamas, then there wouldn't be any fighting in the area, and negotiations could easily be under way. 

 

 

 

 

   Over on the West Bank, Jewish settlements occupy any area that has any economic benefit. Jews bathe in clean water and water their gardens in their walled-in settlements, while Palestinians outside struggle getting some for drinking. And don't come telling me that Jews let everyone to their holy places.

 

Settlements only occuply a slight portion of the West Bank. I do not agree with the continuation of them.

 

 

 

   And there were reasons behing UN's decisions against Israel. You guys are way too [bleep]ing violent. You answer way unproportionally.

 

Lets say you have a guy banging on your door with a gun and telling you that he's going to kill you. Do you want the police to send one officer or send all avaiable resources?

 

 

 

   And don't come telling me occupying the whole Sinai was in any way started by the Egyptians. You attacked on their holy day.

 

Which was what?  Are you talking about 1967? 

"The war was against Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Israel believed that it was only a matter of time before the three Arab states co-ordinated a massive attack on Israel. After the 1956 Suez Crisis, the United Nations had established a presence in the Middle East, especially at sensitive border areas. The United Nations was only there with the agreement of the nations that acted as a host to it. By May 1967, the Egyptians had made it clear that the United Nations was no longer wanted in the Suez region. Gamal Nasser, leader of Egypt, ordered a concentration of Egyptian military forces in the sensitive Suez zone. This was a highly provocative act and the Israelis only viewed it one way – that Egypt was preparing to attack. The Egyptians had also enforced a naval blockade which closed off the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping."

 

Do I agree with everything Israel has done? No. But I will not stand for people calling them (and in retrospect, me) a Nazi.  

[Randox]

Some idle thoughts I've been having. I'm not going to take any stance on who has a right to be were, because I really don't have the knowledge background to even begin to make an informed opinion.
 
First off, I think the Palestinian people in Gaza are in a really terrible position where it is pretty much guaranteed that terrible things are going to happen to them and there is nothing they can do to stop that. Every option for them that I can see involves fighting and death, and that's terrible.
 
Regardless of who started it or why, as soon as Hamas started firing rockets at Israel, conflict was inevitable. While the Israeli missile defense system is largely doing it's job, it does miss things, and I don't believe you can reasonably expect any nation to sit there and allow people to fire rockets at their people and not do anything about it, especially when they have the means to do so. Israel has a duty to consider the safety of their own people before the people of other nations, the same as any other sovereign state. Allowing Hamas to rocket barrage their country until they simply run out is not a realistic option.
 
It would also be a bad idea for Israel to agree to a ceasefire that was anything but unconditional. If Israel is seen to agree to anything as a direct result of the conflict, then they are saying that this tactic achieves results. It's positive reinforcement that what Hamas is doing works, and also provides Hamas with a victory they can hold up to the people of Gaza. Israel is now backed into a corner. But Hamas has also been backed into a corner by Israel's military intervention. If Hamas doesn't have something to show for all their efforts, then they have wasted hundreds of lives, and devastated countless more. Also, you have to imagine that growing up with Israel bombing your country every few years, in addition to invading it, probably creates a pretty massive anti Israeli sentiment in Gaza, which is going to perpetuate and escalate the problem. Hamas is no more in a position to back down than Israel is, and both sides are actively making the problem much worse in the long run. With both sides backed into a corner, I would expect this conflict to continue until both sides have an exit strategy that allows them to say they won.
 
That's short term.
 
Long term, I am going to defer to Thomas L. Friedman's article for the New York Times (and a link to where I found it here).
 

In my view, the only way Israel can truly curtail the Hamas rocket threat is if the Palestinians of Gaza demand that the rockets stop.

Sure, Israel can inflict enough pain on all of Gaza to get a ceasefire, but it never lasts. The only sustainable way to do it is by Israel partnering with moderate Palestinians in the West Bank to build a thriving state there, so Gaza Palestinians wake up every day and say to the nihilistic Hamas: “We want what our West Bank cousins have.” The only sustainable controls are those that come from within.

I suspect that Mr. Friedman is correct. I think the only way Israel is ever going to de-escalate the situation with Hamas in Gaza in the long term is to take action that shows the people of Gaza they have another option. Israel has an opportunity with the West Bank to demonstrate to Gaza that Israel is willing to come to the table, and that positive results can be achieved. I think that the situation has long since passed on from what nation has a right to be where, or who did what terrible thing, which is why I've never bothered studying it in depth. What's done is done, and while it's obviously important to anyone involved in the negotiations, ultimately both sides are going to have to move past it and work towards building a future instead. Dwelling on who did what terrible thing and holding that against them forever is how you create escalating feuds that last long after anyone knows why the feud started in the first place.

 

Right now, I feel like you could describe the situation like this. Imagine Israel is a beehive, and Hamas is a hungry person who wants their honey beehive. The bees have refused to give Hamas their honey, so Hamas (perhaps in desperation) has decided to kick the beehive to get honey that way. Finding themselves attacked by bees, Hamas has decided to continue kicking the beehive until the bees give up and stop attacking them.

 

My point is that I see both sides in the wrong here, regardless of history. Israel has created an environment where diplomacy will never work because Israel refuses to deal with Hamas (after creating an environment for them to thrive in), leaving violence and giving up as the only options left to Gaza. Conflict will be inevitable for as long as that keeps up. For Hamas, attacking Israel like this has proven why it's futile. All they've done is make Israel angry, and made the long term diplomatic situation worse.

[Ember]

.

[The_Gabe]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israeli-shells-hits-un-shelter-gaza-201472413198190287.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/deaths-as-israeli-tanks-shell-gaza-hospital-2014721124111171397.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

 

This sort of thing makes it difficult for me to support Israel.

I'm not particularly sure what happened with that instance either. Nobody is perfect unfortunately. 

[Alg]

Can we give this its own thread? It's certainly deserving of it.

[RpgGamer]

Honestly saq, I stopped reading your argument after you admitted you cant even spell Torah. Youre clearly not entirely informed, and your arguing against someone who is literally on the line of conflict. Just stop. You sound anti-semitic

[Low Levelled]

I guess my take on the whole thing is that both sides have made mistakes, but then again, who hasn't?

[The_Gabe]

I guess my take on the whole thing is that both sides have made mistakes, but then again, who hasn't?

I agree 100%. If I dig up the whole previous 25 page thread about Israel and Palestine, you would find me mentioning it again that both sides have made  mistakes.

[Estonian dude]

Rpg, the fact that I can't spell it in English, which is not my mother tongue, does not mean I don't know about it. I had religion classes in school. About ALL major religions. Neutrally.

 

I actually am a bit anti-semitic. I haven't had a single good experience with a Jew. Might be cause there are pretty much none in my country, but still.

 

IN OTHER NEWS:

We had a terrible thunderstorm over here today. Lost power, than came back on an hour later in the middle of the worst storm. Ran to the barn to check if the engines were ok. Lightning struck the building. Saw through the window.

 

Ran as fast as I could to our house, I was pretty terrified. Getting lightning very close to you is scary. Was at house for 10 mins, lost power again, lightning hit the house.

 

Right now running on batteries, been over 3 hours without power now.

[The_Gabe]

Respect just went down the drain for you Saq. Sorry.

[The_Gabe]

On another note my gf just admitted she wants me home because she misses me and wants sex o.o I was surprised about the second part.

[Low Levelled]

Respect just went down the drain for you Saq. Sorry.

What the actual [bleep] Saq? Don't worry about it, Gabe

[RpgGamer]

Saq, you just admitted that youre biased, the intellectual value of any further argument you make on the subject is completely out the window. If you really had a true neutral lecturing on religion and history, you'd understand how ignorant you sound.

 

But moving on...

 

 

Im in Vegas for the firat time. Within 2 hours of being here I had in&out burger (meh) and saw real live butt implants. Had myself a chuckle.