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Leoo

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If you and the people you know are using them, that's fine, you're all adults and you can think for yourselves.

Does that mean you disagree with Champion and Tylerelyt, who seem to be arguing that it isn't fine to use it consensually?

I agree with them and would pretty much just repost Champion's comment if I wanted to mess with quote formatting more. I'm also not fond of it on a personal level for a lot of reasons, but I'll accept that other people don't have that baggage. Plus, they won't change their behavior no matter what other people tell them. Which leads into...

 

 

You're preaching to the choir here. AFAIK nobody here is defending the word's usage in a malicious context.

...How usually they're ignoring the ways that their 'benign' content might actually be malicious, in the same way that you don't have to be a card-carrying member of the Klan to have prejudices. Everyone thinks they're Person A, but few people are willing to look at their biases. It's easier to shift that responsibility on to a hypothetical person C: someone who's generally willing to change so that they don't have to (which, from experience, is exhausting as all hell). People don't behave like that. If they believe they're not bigoted or even progressive, it's very hard to convince them otherwise, no matter how bad their behavior actually is - even the worst of the ones I've personally dealt with thought they were in the right and called it respect.

 

Hypotheticals and ideal situations are fine, but from my experience Person A isn't much different from Person B if they don't listen and learn. They'll often refuse to do that at all if they're called out on their behavior.

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Everyone thinks they're Person A, but few people are willing to look at their biases. It's easier to shift that responsibility on to a hypothetical person C: someone who's generally willing to change so that they don't have to (which, from experience, is exhausting as all hell). People don't behave like that. If they believe they're not bigoted or even progressive, it's very hard to convince them otherwise, no matter how bad their behavior actually is - even the worst of the ones I've personally dealt with thought they were in the right and called it respect.

 

Hypotheticals and ideal situations are fine, but from my experience Person A isn't much different from Person B if they don't listen and learn. They'll often refuse to do that at all if they're called out on their behavior.

I feel like you missed the point of my example >_>

 

If you assume personal responsibility for everything that bothers you, then you don't really need to worry about convincing other people to change. It's not about trying to convince people to become person A or person C; that's a waste of time and that's what B's and D's spend most of their lives doing. It's about focusing on transforming yourself into person A or person C.

 

It takes a lot of conscious effort to focus on acting and thinking like A/C, since your natural response to unhappiness is usually to blame others for it instead of yourself. But it makes life a lot easier and less stressful in the long run. :)

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Not exactly relevant, but I couldn't refine my point properly. Rather than delete the post, here's some ramblings about personal and social responsibility:

 

I believe humans are 'thinking machines' and personal responsibility is a flimsy, but arguably necessary for now, 'illusion' (or, with less rhetoric, abstraction) that enables society to function. The various internal and external influences, natural (genetic, nutrition, disease, etc) and 'nurtured' (i.e., the complex behaviors that result in society from natural processes) events completely determine the eventual behaviors of any person. Even if the universe is non-deterministic, we are subject to the effects of the non-deterministic events with no ability to change said events outside of existing deterministic mechanics.

 

Requiring an individual to adapt, if it works, is only good for that individual. This is not ideal. Iterative changes to society, assuming social causes are the primary pressures on prejudism, would be required.

 

This is why I believe criminals are also victims, by some measure, and only restorative justice is any good. For the better of humanity, personal responsibility is a necessary abstraction in this case (among others).

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Victims of circumstance sure, but in all but few cases criminals are given a choice where and when they walked the path that lead them to deserve the criminal label

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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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Along with RPG's, or on more thought to go with it, there are some people who are just born twisted and enact criminal behaviours. Could this be rooted out with better mental health care, possibly a better home life during childhood, and a system where discovering these issues was easier? Possibly, but I do personally believe that just as some people are born with the ability and drive to help people, some are born only with the drive to hurt people and the best you can do is delay it. Possibly for a lifetime if lucky and with awesome treatment but you just won't find that in many cases unless extremely rich, especially in America where basic healthcare can cost so much.

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A processor is not to blame when a piece of software malfunctions. Or when creating unwanted outputs from poor inputs. And not when it develops a hardware fault. And even when an engineering flaw is noticed.

 

Would I get upset in most, or all, of these situations? Definitely. Would I irrationally place blame on the processor? Probably! And in all these cases, there is a distinct solution to each problem, from simple (using different software, providing proper inputs) up to the nuclear option (replacing the processor, using a different processor).

 

For humans, the problems are much more difficult to identify even under optimal conditions, and the solutions are even harder to implement. It's easy to toss out a faulty processor, but the same can't be said for people (even defining 'fault' is difficult!).

 

We could eliminate the social influences that cause people to commit crimes. We could properly restore criminals into society. We could develop the means to eliminate the genetic flaws that result in undesirable behavior. It is possible, even if incredibly unlikely. However, rejecting how the incredible web of influences determines the events and outcomes of each of our lives, or reducing its scope to a superficial afterthought, is most definitely the wrong way.

 

And yes, personal responsibility is currently a necessary abstraction over the incredibly complex natural processes that guide us. There must be mechanisms to reduce the social damage from undesirable social influences for the 'greater good'. Rejecting free will doesn't permit us to hurt others, nor for such deeds to be allowed unhindered. For example, that's why I believe there must be a justice system, and those who cannot be properly rehabilitated must remain isolated from society. I'm not denying 'personal responsibility' is currently a necessary concept. But I am rejecting that any action can be washed of social influences. And I am also rejecting the notion that any person has complete control (i.e., free will) over any part of the decision making process.

 

In the near future, given the progress of data modeling, increased processing power, and mountains of personal data, it is not far-fetched to think our lives could be incredibly predictable. Much of our behavior--where we go, who we talk to, what we like, what we believe, who we support--can already be predicted with accuracy useful enough for private companies and governments alike to gather and utilize the data in all kinds of products, services, and agencies.

 

Will these predictions be infallible? No, but our existence is based on predictions created from simulations, including weather, physics simulations, etc; each of which, depending on the situation and data and period and whatever else, vary from accurate enough to incredibly accurate. To deny the same could be said for human behavior is simply hubris.

 

So unless you believe free will exists--and I can't possibly see how it exists outside of supernatural mechanisms with no rational explanation--then we are all essentially thinking machines subject to deterministic forces. We, as individuals, do not exist in a vacuum.

 

At the end of the day, the only difference between me and a rock is an arbitrary one created by the organic processes that enable consciousness. I like the fact I can think, though the rock has it pretty nice, too.

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I feel like you missed the point of my example >_>

 

If you assume personal responsibility for everything that bothers you, then you don't really need to worry about convincing other people to change. It's not about trying to convince people to become person A or person C; that's a waste of time and that's what B's and D's spend most of their lives doing. It's about focusing on transforming yourself into person A or person C.

 

It takes a lot of conscious effort to focus on acting and thinking like A/C, since your natural response to unhappiness is usually to blame others for it instead of yourself. But it makes life a lot easier and less stressful in the long run. :)

As much as you've missed the point of mine.

 

Assuming personal responsibility for every little act of bigotry is exhausting. Do you know what that does to a person? Expecting others to do it long-term is unrealistic in just about every possible way. It's not a way for them to be happier, it's a way for the people who can't be bothered to filter themselves to be happier. It's selfishness, plain and simple. 

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Altruistically, if everyone took personal responsibility it would prevent the problem entirely though....did I get that right?

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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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In response to Muggi's posts looking for citations: I have read a couple articles/reports on studies on which my opinion is based, but it's been a few years, and looking a couple hours the last couple days I couldn't find the things i read, nor anything supporting or denying my claim. So I guess I can't provide it, at least not without putting more time than I'm willing into this argument.

 

Anyway, something more relevant to the current tangent, I feel like a lot of what you have to say about "happiness" just boils down to assimilation vs. accommodation. Where your position is almost unyeildingly assimilation, because assimilation is the thing the different person does individually, whereas accommodation is the thing society around that person does. And, like, I understand your argument about taking care of your own happiness and not relying on the people around you, but in some cases that's not possible. There *are* cases where demanding accommodation is necessary, and there are a lot of cases where accommodation provides greater long term happiness to more people than assimilation possibly can. Even as an individual, you can't always expect to just fit into the mold other people desire of you, and it's absolutely reasonable to expect them to accommodate you.

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My skin is finally getting soft
I'll scrub until the damn thing comes off

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Altruistically, if everyone took personal responsibility it would prevent the problem entirely though....did I get that right?

And that's not the default now? I'm pretty sure most people think they are in control of their consciousness and therefore their actions.

 

For example, the US legal system is completely about personal responsibility and our justice systems in most part rejects social influences. There are no attempts to address what causes crimes, only punish those who have done so. The restorative services are a joke. And yet we ridicule European nations with great restorative systems, like Norway, because criminals aren't tortured indefinitely (life without parole) or murdered by the state. Why?

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In other news, back from Canada.

Slept 16 hours the first day home, cause the trip was [bleep]ing epic! ... and exhausting...

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So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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That'll last you a year or two so I guess it's worth it, unless you have a rough winter

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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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T-1 month until the babies emerge

 

 

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“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”

“Mmmhmm.”

 

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why on earth would the UK want to remain in the EU, what do they get out of it? I thought most of their trade was to NA anyways.

The financial benefits seem to be worth staying in the EU, but I know very little at the end of the day. And unless I'm reading the site wrong, the United States and North America is only a portion of import/export; by region, European countries are the UK's largest importers/exporters http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/#Destinations

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Yeah the social aspect seems stronger on the leave side. I think the better economic choice would be to remain.

 

Thus far it looks like leave is performing much better than expected... Scotland/Ireland seem to be voting heavily to stay, but England to leave. If the trend continues leave should win handily, there are way more voters in England.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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or that travel between countries would be hindered for UK citizens wanting to travel the continent.

This is apparently because of how much EU membership streamlines the process of living/traveling abroad, but I don't know the exact details. A lot of the people I've heard speak on the matter are worried about losing that if they voted to leave, especially the ones that had plans to study abroad. There might also have been something about how it'd greatly impact British people living abroad as well? Not entirely sure

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or that travel between countries would be hindered for UK citizens wanting to travel the continent.

This is apparently because of how much EU membership streamlines the process of living/traveling abroad, but I don't know the exact details. A lot of the people I've heard speak on the matter are worried about losing that if they voted to leave, especially the ones that had plans to study abroad. There might also have been something about how it'd greatly impact British people living abroad as well? Not entirely sure
Basically, from how my Greek tour guide worded it earlier this year, if you are a citizen of the EU you can travel between any other EU nation without a visa (and possibly without a passport) almost as if you were just crossing a state/provincial boundary.
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I've been reading a lot of comments about the Eurocup lately and they're pretty funny. They're always talking about how their team is gonna "rip apart" the other team's defense (which means, what, scoring 2 goals?), or how x game didn't matter because the players were in the wrong mindset because of y, or that their opponents will lose because they've been having trouble scoring (every team has trouble scoring). It's all so ridiculous

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I've been reading a lot of comments about the Eurocup lately and they're pretty funny. They're always talking about how their team is gonna "rip apart" the other team's defense (which means, what, scoring 2 goals?), or how x game didn't matter because the players were in the wrong mindset because of y, or that their opponents will lose because they've been having trouble scoring (every team has trouble scoring). It's all so ridiculous

Most sports are like this though.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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