Today...

[Noxx]

Our days have cooled down considerably, thankfully. Down to around the 105 region. But this is the time of the year the humidity really kicks in. Generally hangs around the 50% mark but goes as high as the upper 80%. Really unpleasant to be outside.  

[Estonian dude]

I'm in LA, staying in a room without AC and I have a terrible sunburn. This place is like inferno.

 

Can't wait to get to New Zealand, it's winter there...

[Noxx]

Almost fell off my chair laughing when i saw Canada is introducing a third gender option on Passports. What a [bleep]ing joke. 

[Bonez899]

Almost fell off my chair laughing when i saw Canada is introducing a third gender option on Passports. What a [bleep]ing joke.

What the actual F***? Thats ridiculous, but at least I can feel safe my tax money is going towards useful things and not being squandered.

[Veiva]

Your taxes account for less than one thousandth of one thousand percent of Canda's revenue so your opinion counts for less than one thousandth of one thousandth of Canada's financial policies. :)

 

(If it's not clear I hate the 'my taxes are paying for X' argument, regardless of whatever X is. In this case, it's a literal X I suppose.)

 

edit: Oh I misunderstood your post. Let my post stand in memory of my mistake. Unless you're being sarcastic. I can't tell. Ugh.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Veiva

[Hedgehog]

Why is that so bad lol. Have some chill

[obfuscator]

I imagine that in certain countries in the world having an X for your gender would cause a whole lot of problems. I hope it doesn't end up causing diplomatic issues.

[Bonez899]

Your taxes account for less than one thousandth of one thousand percent of Canda's revenue so your opinion counts for less than one thousandth of one thousandth of Canada's financial policies. :)

 

(If it's not clear I hate the 'my taxes are paying for X' argument, regardless of whatever X is. In this case, it's a literal X I suppose.)

 

edit: Oh I misunderstood your post. Let my post stand in memory of my mistake. Unless you're being sarcastic. I can't tell. Ugh.

Its a middle ground. Overall I don't care, and the post is slightly sarcastic. At the same time, from my point of view from outside of the LGBT community it seems like there are definitely bigger fish to fry than something like this, especially when the immediate response from some members of the LGBT/transcommunity is to complain it isn't enough instead of embracing it as a first of its kind (to my knowledge) move to be more inclusive/accepting.

[Randox]

I'm not entirely sure I see the point, but I also don't really see the problem.

 

Really though, I think the best approach would be to make gender and sex two distinct entries. That seems to be the general direction we're heading in, and I think it would actually help broader acceptance to start taking steps to distinctly separate the concepts like that. I am however not someone who struggles with my gender identity, so I appreciate that my perspective may not be the most important one on subjects like this. I do think though that the 'not everyone is a boy or girl' pill is a lot easier to swallow if you separate the subject from what people can plainly see with their own eyes.

[Noxx]

So my passport is officially full. Went to the embassy to apply for a new one, but it turns out it could take up to 6 months before i get it. Sadly i can't really afford to wait 6 months, so i'm pretty much forced to go back to South Africa and do it there. I found it kind of sad that my first reaction to realizing i had to go back to the country i was born in and grew up in was a feeling of anger and frustration. Haven't been back to South Africa in probably 7 years or something. Really not excited to go back there either. 

[RpgGamer]

Gender and sex are different. Sex is your biology, gender is your identity. Some people are born as an inbetween sex, not many, but some. I see no problem in accounting for that in a passport. Except the [wagon] reactions of other countries/people that don't like to keep up with modern health science.

 

Edit: I can say "shit" just fine but [wagon] is still in the censor cycle. Hilarious.

[Tesset]

 

Gender and sex are different. Sex is your biology, gender is your identity. Some people are born as an inbetween sex, not many, but some. I see no problem in accounting for that in a passport. Except the [wagon] reactions of other countries/people that don't like to keep up with modern health science.

 

Edit: I can say "shit" just fine but [wagon] is still in the censor cycle. Hilarious.

 

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Being forced to take gender classes in university I got some incite on this topic that I wouldn't have cared to get otherwise.

 

Sex and gender were synonyms until about 30 years ago. They both referred to biology until then. Even prominent feminist writers who were questioning societies assumptions about gender identity still used them as synonyms until the distinction was made. That said the distinction was made and people have largely accepted it now.  However lets not act like this is some set in stone concept as old as the stars, its not. Its a 30 year old idea that came from radical feminism. It just so happened that this particular idea happened to stick while other ideas like microagressions aren't doing as well.

 

And here's my own bias time

 

how is the word gender useful? I've met more than one transsexual and their attitudes were clearly that "I want to be a girl physically and lives as a girl as best I can to both points". To be more blunt I've never met anyone who's idea about their sex differed from their gender.

 

Also its not modern health science, its modern sociology. Gender is not a scientific term its a sociological one.

 

Marriage is a sociological term

Planet is a scientific term

 

Both had similar dilemma's about their meanings at roughly the same time but I'm sure you can see the difference between these two words

 

I have a friend who's non-binary. They absolutely don't fit in with female gender roles. They are "biologically female." Having their sex and gender distinguished helps them express how they want to interact with the world, and how they want the world to interact with them.

 

I'm (mostly) male, both as my sex and gender. I also find it very helpful to distinguish, because while I don't experience physical dysphoria enough to want to change my body, there are huge amounts of masculinity that I want to actively reject, and parts of femininity that I want to take on as my own. I.e., I hate the machismo thing, and I really like to paint my nails. And before I had a framework to separate my sex from my gender roles, I couldn't really examine what I wanted.

 

Ultimately, sex has a pretty high level of determinism (though it is not as simple as x/y chromosomes, as I understand). It is universal across cultures. Gender is determined by societal expectations, and it varies wildly across cultures and generations. Humanity's ability to change sex is limited, but our ability to change gender, to remove harmful gender roles, like toxic masculinity or the wage gap, is 100% within humanity's power, because we made it up in the first place. Gender is helpful because it helps us separate out what is biological and what is social, w.r.t. how we interact with sexes.

[Bonez899]

how is the word gender useful? I've met more than one transsexual and their attitudes were clearly that "I want to be a girl physically and lives as a girl as best I can to both points". To be more blunt I've never met anyone who's idea about their sex differed from their gender.

 

I'm getting confused here. From my understanding, and view, people usually use sex to define a person's birth gender. Usually, from my position in the world, because it is important from a medical perspective because currently there are things about sex which cannot be changed to meet gender.

 

From that post I am guessing you are saying that a persons outward appearance is their sex while their gender is whatever they identify as? I'm lost on what your definition of sex is from that paragraph.

I have a friend who's non-binary. They absolutely don't fit in with female gender roles. They are "biologically female." Having their sex and gender distinguished helps them express how they want to interact with the world, and how they want the world to interact with them.

 

I'm (mostly) male, both as my sex and gender. I also find it very helpful to distinguish, because while I don't experience physical dysphoria enough to want to change my body, there are huge amounts of masculinity that I want to actively reject, and parts of femininity that I want to take on as my own. I.e., I hate the machismo thing, and I really like to paint my nails. And before I had a framework to separate my sex from my gender roles, I couldn't really examine what I wanted.

 

Ultimately, sex has a pretty high level of determinism (though it is not as simple as x/y chromosomes, as I understand). It is universal across cultures. Gender is determined by societal expectations, and it varies wildly across cultures and generations. Humanity's ability to change sex is limited, but our ability to change gender, to remove harmful gender roles, like toxic masculinity or the wage gap, is 100% within humanity's power, because we made it up in the first place. Gender is helpful because it helps us separate out what is biological and what is social, w.r.t. how we interact with sexes.

I'm agreeing on all your points, even down to gender roles to a certain extent. However, I'm not sure I agree with your definition of gender, and I don't have to I'm just looking to sound out your viewpoint.

 

From your viewpoint, things like toxic masculinity and nail painting are a gender defining thing? Personally, I don't really see it that way, although it might be me confusing the definitions of sec and gender as laid out earlier. For me, painted nails or a feminine personality do not detract from of change a persons gender. Those are things, which to me, would make me think of their sexuality and possibly define them as gay or homosexual with no other information present but it wouldn't make me think of their gender as being not male.

 

Also, I'm sure this will just start a flame war but the wage gap doesn't truly exist if all factors are taken the same. Or if there is one it is drastically reduced to no more than a few percentage. Most of what creates wage gap is benefits, or lack thereof, which unfortunately put women at a disadvantage. When all things are similar in a situation (I.E. Same level of education, same years worked, no time taken for maternity leave, etc...) there is no real gap to be talked about. I do believe that some things, such as maternity leave, shouldn't have any effect on wage but unfortunately thats not the case in some places.

[Veiva]

I went to go bike riding but my tire was flat. I was wondering why the ride yesterday was so bumpy even after I pumped up the tires...

 

Good thing I had a spare tube. Did 17 miles in 60 minutes, not bad. I wonder how much of a difference a road bike would make? I'd love to break 20 mph average but I don't think it's feasible on my bike (hybrid, 21 gears, nothing fancy).

[Bonez899]

 

 

how is the word gender useful? I've met more than one transsexual and their attitudes were clearly that "I want to be a girl physically and lives as a girl as best I can to both points". To be more blunt I've never met anyone who's idea about their sex differed from their gender.

I'm getting confused here. From my understanding, and view, people usually use sex to define a person's birth gender. Usually, from my position in the world, because it is important from a medical perspective because currently there are things about sex which cannot be changed to meet gender.

 

From that post I am guessing you are saying that a persons outward appearance is their sex while their gender is whatever they identify as? I'm lost on what your definition of sex is from that paragraph.

 

Trans people intend to get a sex change. So a mtf would want to take hormones or get surgeries.

 

This is a seperate thing entirely from the guy who wants to paint his nails and wear dresses and be called she. Which by and large just doesn't happen, at a certain point men like this fantasize about having breasts or a vagina, which seperates it from a gender issue to a sex reassignment issue even if they have no goal to go through with it.

 

Now I get where your going, and understand it completely and agree.

[Bonez899]

rewrote it but you replied already :lol:

I still got that from the first post and agree. No reason that anything should be labelled as feminine or masculine, which is where my personal belief that sex is the gender you are born with and gender is what you currently are/identify as, because while I might think of someone as gay for doing those things just due to societal conditioning I don't paint them as black and white "only girls paint their nails and wear dresses while only guys are masculine or aggressive."

[Veiva]

As far as I can tell you're associating homosexuality with feminine traits, and thus a guy who paints his nails is likely gay since obviously a straight guy (i.e., someone who fits within the typical male gender roles) wouldn't do that?

 

Or, for another example, kind of like if you'd think a female mechanic would likely be a lesbian... (Or whatever.)

[Tesset]

Agreed, gender roles don't really exist. There's nothing intrinsically linked to a Y chromosome that prevents me from wearing nail polish. But I still get pushback about it, particularly from people close to me who are older. It's still abnormal to see men who wear nail polish. I know exactly 1 other irl, and he only wears nail polish because I do, afaik.

 

In an ideal world where people aren't segregated into roles based on their sex, gender wouldn't be a useful concept. We don't live in that world,and so we have to have it to critique the segregated roles and for some individuals to figure out how they fit in with those roles.

[Bonez899]

As far as I can tell you're associating homosexuality with feminine traits, and thus a guy who paints his nails is likely gay since obviously a straight guy (i.e., someone who fits within the typical male gender roles) wouldn't do that?

 

Kind of like if your first thought about a female mechanic would be to think she's a lesbian.

For me it highly depends on what I know about the person and how they act otherwise. I know a lot of straight guys who have had their nails painted. By the same I have met a lot of females in non-traditional female jobs which are straight as well. Generally though when I think of a man having his nails painted I associated it with homosexuality due to the societal conditioning I have that tells me straight men don't paint their nails. I'm having trouble describing it, and its probably because I'm trying to defend a point I don't really believe in but used as an example because it came readily to mind.

 

Overall though, something like that wouldn't have me assuming a person as gay unless it was all I knew about them. Their personality, how they dress, body language, all of those things are things which I would use to "determine" in my opinion if someone is gay or straight. However, by the same there are people I've met who are gay that I would never have assumed because they don't fit the stereotypes and I've also met people who were straight that I would have labelled as gay because of those same stereotypes. Its wrong of me to label, on some level, but it happens either way.

[Tesset]

 

 

 

how is the word gender useful? I've met more than one transsexual and their attitudes were clearly that "I want to be a girl physically and lives as a girl as best I can to both points". To be more blunt I've never met anyone who's idea about their sex differed from their gender.

I'm getting confused here. From my understanding, and view, people usually use sex to define a person's birth gender. Usually, from my position in the world, because it is important from a medical perspective because currently there are things about sex which cannot be changed to meet gender.

 

From that post I am guessing you are saying that a persons outward appearance is their sex while their gender is whatever they identify as? I'm lost on what your definition of sex is from that paragraph.

 

Sex: Im a man who wants boobs and or a vagina

 

Gender: Im a man who wants to wear dresses and paint my nails

 

Problem: Why is nail painting and dress wearing even a gender thing at all. No doubt the majority of people say that certain activities are mainly or feminine. But at the end of the day its a strawman for identity. There is no real masculine or real feminine and the amount of gender roles you can can check on your list that you agree with doesn't actually change much about you.

 

That calling yourself non binary or female because you paint your nails not only doesn't tell me any information about you but it trivializes other peoples identities by diluting the definition.

 

 

Kind of like how bots devalue skill capes :lol:

 

I have a friend who's non-binary. They absolutely don't fit in with female gender roles. They are "biologically female." Having their sex and gender distinguished helps them express how they want to interact with the world, and how they want the world to interact with them.

 

 

Does your friend wish she didn't have female genitals?

Does your friend wish she had male genitals?

What female gender stuff does she like/dislike?

What male gender stuff does she like/dislike?

 

At the end of the day what's the point of an identity that tells me nothing about you. If you told me that youre religiously christian I've learned a lot. If you told me you value pacifism, I've learned a lot too.

 

If you told me your non-binary I gotta spend half an hour figuring out what you mean by it and that its completely different from the last person to say they were.

The correct way to interpret that, I think, is that binary gender roles isn't a helpful way to analyze them and figure out who they are. The same way that the jock/nerd dynamic stops being helpful when you become, like, 21.

 

And, to confirm. They, not she. Referring to them with female pronouns is actively incorrect.

[Tesset]

Exactly that so why label and use separate pronouns if the identity isn't concise in what it means.

 

And even if there was a consensus why does it matter when the gender roles your rebelling against don't even exist.

 

God help us when vegans demand pronouns

I mean, they exist the same way dinner place settings exist. There's nothing inherent to the human experience in the way we put the forks and knives on the table, but it affects our lives in very real ways. There's not a correct or incorrect way to set the table, as far as our DNA is concerned, but certain people will definitely call you out for doing it incorrectly.

[Estonian dude]

Who da [bleep] cares, who you banging in your bedroom or what you wearing or how you identify yourself, as long as you don't bother me with it.

 

I mean, why, why, why do you need all those pronouns and stuff? In Estonian, we don't even have any genders in our language, and everything is much easier.

 

 

 

On a different note, nice being in an airbnb with thin walls while in the next room a pair of Russians are having passionate sex.

 

And I still cannot fathom how stupid the imperial measure system here in the States of 'Murica is. I mean, it doesn't even compute. In any way.

But I like that you can get beer in a million sizes and some beers, like Stella are even relatively good and cheap. That doesn't apply to American beers though, ain't had a good cheap local beer yet.

[Hedgehog]

Yuengling is the best cheap beer in America

[obfuscator]

The imperial system was designed to be useful before everyone had a solid math education; in historical contexts it makes perfect sense. These days, I agree it's not ideal.

[Tesset]

Who da [bleep] cares, who you banging in your bedroom or what you wearing or how you identify yourself, as long as you don't bother me with it.

 

I mean, why, why, why do you need all those pronouns and stuff? In Estonian, we don't even have any genders in our language, and everything is much easier.

 

This is how my father talked about homosexuality for a long time, and he really balked when I started to call him out for being prejudiced. It made it very hard to come out to my family for a long time, and unsurprisingly, when I did, their response was very close to "just don't tell anyone" and then they continued to be pretty heteronormative at me wrt having children and whatnot.

 

Basically, that response translates to "don't tell me about any effects that your gender/sexuality has on your life, and especially don't tell me about issues other people are causing you, and especially especially don't tell me when i hurt you. " Whether or not you mean it that way, that's how it's being perceived. I suggest you examine whether that's the message you want to put out.