The "Value" of Charms

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

When figuring out the price of any item, let alone charms, it's not even remotely about the cost of getting them -- it's all about the willingness of someone to pay for it.

 

 

 

Personally, I'd be willing to pay 400 a gold, 800 a green, 1,200 per crimson, and near 6,000 a blue. Not because they're worth it, but because that's what I'd be willing to pay to train this skill.

[Inuashakent]

When figuring out the price of any item, let alone charms, it's not even remotely about the cost of getting them -- it's all about the willingness of someone to pay for it.

 

 

 

Personally, I'd be willing to pay 400 a gold, 800 a green, 1,200 per crimson, and near 6,000 a blue. Not because they're worth it, but because that's what I'd be willing to pay to train this skill.

 

 

 

No idea why blues are worth 5x more than a crimson.

[Our_Moon]

When figuring out the price of any item, let alone charms, it's not even remotely about the cost of getting them -- it's all about the willingness of someone to pay for it.

 

 

 

Personally, I'd be willing to pay 400 a gold, 800 a green, 1,200 per crimson, and near 6,000 a blue. Not because they're worth it, but because that's what I'd be willing to pay to train this skill.

 

 

 

Very true. This also incorporates the "speed" of training. Golds are nine times slower than Blues for training, and five times less than Crimsons. However, for those saved hours, people will pay more.

 

 

 

Perhaps 6000 and 12000 Gp Each, respectively are more accurate, then?

[glokstar2727]

Gold: 200-250

 

Green: 500-600

 

Crimson: 800-850

 

Blue: 900-1100

 

 

 

Not sure how I got those ideas but that's just what I think they would be lol

[Peronix]

All I can say is it's a good thing the charms aren't tradable :P

 

 

 

If they were 6k each you would be grossing 1.2m an hour on crimson charms alone at rock lobs, which would make magic a practically free skill. Of course it couldn't stay like that; either one of two things would have to happen, chaos/death/blood runes skyrocket, or price of charms would go down. Probably the latter. No matter how much demand for charms there would be in the case of this imaginary update, there simply isn't enough demand for them since summoning would still be a very expensive skill to train, and with every spot in every world at rock lobs full 24/7, the supply would ultimately overwhelm the demand.

 

 

 

Unless rock lobs were nerfed. :P

[compfreak847]

Aww, I'm really not in the mood for a bunch of mathmatics to prove my point. I'll leave it at bursting costing 4.5k per crimson, so 4.5k is our base price. You can get roughly 200 crimson worth of XP per hour of bursting, so considering an oppertunity cost of 2m an hour from Sara GWD (Much more then that is made merching, and some people make much less, but I'll redo it without that). So those 200 crimson are 'worth' 2m in time, minus the magic XP of 180k, making 3 hours, leaving us with a paradox for bursting and Sara if we use Sara for cash and bursting for XP. Never thought I'd encounter one in Runescape :shock:

 

 

 

Ok, new angle

 

 

 

I'm going to ignore the magic XP from bursting, a totally unfair and biased decision, but I'm not willing to do the math right now. Plus I already have 17m magic XP from bursting, so it doesn't apply to me :

 

 

 

Ok, so we've got 200 crimson costing 4.5k each in runes, plus 2m in time - 2m distributed across the 200 crimson is 10k each, added to the 4.5k per crimson makes 14.5k total cost per crimson. I'd assume at least that if they were buyable instantly - I.E. I'd like to get 99 summoning now, but I'm too lazy to burst lobsters, as the XP is very slow. However, I have the money, so it's just a matter of getting around to it. I'd assume 15k would be the lowest crimson would ever drop to, with blue around 2.5x that, or 35-40k. Obviously they would be much higher when they first came out, but the prices for green and gold would scale similarly to crimson in XP; summoning can be leveled very, very fast, regardless of the charms used.

[brando13a]

Well, despite all of your tedious calculation and speculation, it all falls down to simple principles:

 

 

 

What players want to pay

 

What players will sell it for

 

and what jagex deems "worthy" of a buying and selling price limit.

 

 

 

In all honesty, if you feel like bursting for charms, thats your own fault. It's currently the fastest way to get charms but also the most costly, if charms became tradeable, expect people to stop bursting for them, as it's far too money intensive to "farm" charms in that manner.

 

 

 

You can argue logically that the time+cost of getting the charm=the selling price. But, players arent going to take a morbidly obese price margin just because its faster. RWTers and the lucky few who have 3rd age/phats may indulge, but the average player would NEVER pay 10k+ for a single charm of any color.

 

 

 

Charms come easy, and if they sold for 1-20k EACH(edit- just read a post saying blues at 30-40k. +1 to my point), as a stackable, easy to find item, the economy would crumble under the sheer amount of charms flowing through the market.

 

 

 

Why go to GWD's when you can train slayer and pull stupid amounts of cash from charms alone, let alone the slayer drops that come with slayer monsters.

 

 

 

so aside from the logical effort+gathering cost= price, we can assume the other logical assumption that a level 3 can get charms, and easily make a fortune simply killing random monsters. 1k per gold charm? Goblins would be so crowded...

 

 

 

Rock lobsters and Waterfiends arent the "best" way of getting charms if your intent is to sell them. the best way to get charms is the cheapest way, not the fastest. I could do a slayer task of say... abberrant specters- average about 30-100 charms depending on how your standard deviation kicks in, and pull off millions while spending next to nothing. Or dagganoths- easy kills, cannon-able and slayer friendly= mass charms and at the prices suggested here, there would be no point in training summoning because the charms would be the new best money maker in the game.

 

 

 

just my opinion- no math required.

[compfreak847]

Well, despite all of your tedious calculation and speculation, it all falls down to simple principles:

 

 

 

What players want to pay

 

What players will sell it for

 

and what jagex deems "worthy" of a buying and selling price limit.

 

 

 

In all honesty, if you feel like bursting for charms, thats your own fault. It's currently the fastest way to get charms but also the most costly, if charms became tradeable, expect people to stop bursting for them, as it's far too money intensive to "farm" charms in that manner.

 

 

 

You can argue logically that the time+cost of getting the charm=the selling price. But, players arent going to take a morbidly obese price margin just because its faster. RWTers and the lucky few who have 3rd age/phats may indulge, but the average player would NEVER pay 10k+ for a single charm of any color.

 

 

 

Charms come easy, and if they sold for 1-20k EACH(edit- just read a post saying blues at 30-40k. +1 to my point), as a stackable, easy to find item, the economy would crumble under the sheer amount of charms flowing through the market.

 

 

 

Why go to GWD's when you can train slayer and pull stupid amounts of cash from charms alone, let alone the slayer drops that come with slayer monsters.

 

 

 

so aside from the logical effort+gathering cost= price, we can assume the other logical assumption that a level 3 can get charms, and easily make a fortune simply killing random monsters. 1k per gold charm? Goblins would be so crowded...

 

 

 

Rock lobsters and Waterfiends arent the "best" way of getting charms if your intent is to sell them. the best way to get charms is the cheapest way, not the fastest. I could do a slayer task of say... abberrant specters- average about 30-100 charms depending on how your standard deviation kicks in, and pull off millions while spending next to nothing. Or dagganoths- easy kills, cannon-able and slayer friendly= mass charms and at the prices suggested here, there would be no point in training summoning because the charms would be the new best money maker in the game.

 

 

 

just my opinion- no math required.

 

Given the number of people that currently burst or do waterfiends, that sounds entirely illogical, especially when compared to how many more, like me, would train if there were a faster but more expensive way. Your forgetting that bursting is THE best way, at least for those of us who earn more then 219k per hour :roll:

 

 

 

You can argue slayer or whatever, but you must hold slayer XP very highly, given the tradeoffs in XP and charms.

 

 

 

Sometimes opinions are right, but ignoring calculations and believing a personal hunch to be more accurate is usually a bad move. I've very effectively proven before, and am willing to do it again, that calculations and logic almost always prevail over opinions not based in facts.

[brando13a]

Who ever said I was using solely my opinion? or that I wasnt using fact?

 

 

 

You're comparing untradeable 0gp market value items to an idealistic parallel where they have monetary value and are tradeable.

 

 

 

under those circumstances, bursting wouldnt be useless, because you are selling for more than your paying, BUT so is everyone else in the game.

 

 

 

all of your examples focus on the mainstream ways, but take no consideration to the rest of the market and the average player. I use slayer as an example because its an efficient monster killing skill, that is very widely used.

 

 

 

Yes you can make absurd amounts from bursting supposing the prices posted, but thats in compensation of the 5k +time you pay to get them, what about people who are paying 0-1000gp per charm? they flood the market, because the numer of people slaying/general monster killing will far outweigh the number brought in via bursting.

 

 

 

I'm not being illogical, its just that I'm taking a wider view of things. In this case no one can be right or wrong, it's just that you cant have a focused approach to hypothesising price of hypothetical circumstances. you need to cover all the variables, and those variables say that Bork+slaying+chaos tunnels+ general monster killing will bring in more charms than the bursting/waterfiend theory compensates for.

 

 

 

because of these external sources outside of your theory, it sort of collapses under its own focus. You worked everything out brilliantly, and I give you credit, its just that every single player who kills a monster has a chance to get a token (usually) and there would just be too many floating around to sustain such a high price. and if the price WASNT 14k, people wouldnt burst for red charms because it wouldnt be cost efficient, and they could simply buy them and save the time.

 

 

 

Just saying.

[Inuashakent]

But then again, if the prices do skyrocket that high people will start camping at Waterfiends, no?

[compfreak847]

Who ever said I was using solely my opinion? or that I wasnt using fact?

 

 

 

You're comparing untradeable 0gp market value items to an idealistic parallel where they have monetary value and are tradeable.

 

 

 

under those circumstances, bursting wouldnt be useless, because you are selling for more than your paying, BUT so is everyone else in the game.

 

 

 

all of your examples focus on the mainstream ways, but take no consideration to the rest of the market and the average player. I use slayer as an example because its an efficient monster killing skill, that is very widely used.

 

 

 

Yes you can make absurd amounts from bursting supposing the prices posted, but thats in compensation of the 5k +time you pay to get them, what about people who are paying 0-1000gp per charm? they flood the market, because the numer of people slaying/general monster killing will far outweigh the number brought in via bursting.

 

 

 

I'm not being illogical, its just that I'm taking a wider view of things. In this case no one can be right or wrong, it's just that you cant have a focused approach to hypothesising price of hypothetical circumstances. you need to cover all the variables, and those variables say that Bork+slaying+chaos tunnels+ general monster killing will bring in more charms than the bursting/waterfiend theory compensates for.

 

 

 

because of these external sources outside of your theory, it sort of collapses under its own focus. You worked everything out brilliantly, and I give you credit, its just that every single player who kills a monster has a chance to get a token (usually) and there would just be too many floating around to sustain such a high price. and if the price WASNT 14k, people wouldnt burst for red charms because it wouldnt be cost efficient, and they could simply buy them and save the time.

 

 

 

Just saying.

 

Your argument is flawed, based on the fact that there will be far more charms coming in the being bought. In reality, we don't know, but due to the sheer number of people that use waterfiends and burst, the two "good" methods of training summoning, I'd consider it fairly likely that the charms could be high. Otherwise people like me could power from 1-99 summoning in a day, at a cost of 150m or so. Not likely; too many people would do it. 200m XP could be gotten in under a week, and as more people trained summoning higher, more would realize how good it is.

[Triquos]

golds - 500 ea (take forever to make into pouches because of how little the exp is and is fairly common so it wouldn't be worth much more)

 

 

 

greens - 2k ea (almost same shard requirements as pouches with crimson charm requirement, but costs a lot more so this is why I think it should be half the cost of crimsons)

 

 

 

crimsons - 4k ea (mostly used all-round)

 

 

 

blues - 8k ea (very fast exp)

 

 

 

=P~

[brando13a]

Uhmm.. I'm sure you didnt mean to, but thanks for proving my point with the first line of your post.

 

 

 

My point exactly is that supply will far outweigh the demand to train, especially at those insane prices. It may very well start high, but it will drop like no other: due to the fact that people will be trying to sell for the stupidly high prices, but there wont be enough buyers, thus forcing the sellers to go for the lowest to assure a "swift" sale, and forcing the price down.

 

 

 

Supply>Demand=price drop. My case in point, there are far too many players killing things for the price to be stable and high. Killing Bork drops a decent amount of charms if I remember correctly, at the prices stated here, that one fight would guarantee you about 60-100k+

 

 

 

with such a good, easy source of money, that can come from almost ANY monster, why would players do anything but sell them to the obscenely rich? but so many people would do this, that as I've said a few times, market floods, price is driven down and out, thus crashing the charm market to a point where people may not want to sell them unless they're the select few who dont train summoning.

 

 

 

My argument isnt flawed, and neither is yours. They both work in the way we present them, mine is a wholeistic view of the members economy, and every single possible source of charms. Your's shows the top production of charms. if anything the two theories work together to form a stable market somewhere in between what the charm farmers would produce vs what the average player produces. the average of those two medians is where your price will end up, and seeing as there are probably more people doing general killing, and would obviously pick up every charm if they were worth 1k+ after all they are stackable, the price would be lowered from the MAX profit you'd get from the "best" forms of charm farming.

 

 

 

This is hypothetical analysis- you have to assume the best and worst case scenarios, and they do factor in with eachother. Runescape has a very large player base, and members isnt some closely guarded secret. the number of farmers of charms, does not, and probably will not come close to the amount of charms that appear to the average player throughout the day. lets say 1000 people are diehard charm farmers, bringing in 200 charms per hour each. meanwhile, the other 30,000 members who are playing bring in about 7 charms per hour each. that market would have 200,000 charms per hour from diehard farmers, and 210,000 from casual players who might kill a goblin, or are fighting the kbd, or what have you.

 

 

 

the point is, neither of us is wrong, and trying to prove one is, is pointless in a completely hypothetical discussion. Granted a large amount of the charm economy would be from bursters/waterfiend people, but there would be at least an equal amount coming from people who arent spending that kind of money, thus bringing down the gold/charm average.

[Inuashakent]

30,000. Most likely much more.

 

 

 

7 per hour. Lol, even dusties give 30 crimsons per hour.

[knight10071]

I think the prices in this topic are way too high. That is, because the basis for it is the assumption that the vast majority of the charms brought in would be by bursting. However, the moment charms would become tradeable, bursting would be abandoned. The sole reason people burst lobsters is that they are the fastest charms in the game. If charms would be tradeable, these people would buy these charms off the slayers and monsterhunters. Therefore the price would never be based on the costs of bursting.

 

 

 

The argument against lower prices is that people with X00M amount of money could get the skill in a day or so. That is true. JaGEx didn't develop this skill for tradeable charms, but for untradeable ones. Therefore, Summoning indeed would be messed up with tradeable charms.

[Viv]

well about the samme thing would happen if you could melee something for consistant 1k+ charms/hr

 

 

 

31 hrs for 99 instad of 5-10 times that!@_@

 

 

 

crimsons prob would go down cause alot of people get charms and dont really plan on training summon almost like farming

 

with saplings but thats intentional.

[compfreak847]

Uhmm.. I'm sure you didnt mean to, but thanks for proving my point with the first line of your post.

 

 

 

My point exactly is that supply will far outweigh the demand to train, especially at those insane prices. It may very well start high, but it will drop like no other: due to the fact that people will be trying to sell for the stupidly high prices, but there wont be enough buyers, thus forcing the sellers to go for the lowest to assure a "swift" sale, and forcing the price down.

 

 

 

Supply>Demand=price drop. My case in point, there are far too many players killing things for the price to be stable and high. Killing Bork drops a decent amount of charms if I remember correctly, at the prices stated here, that one fight would guarantee you about 60-100k+

 

 

 

with such a good, easy source of money, that can come from almost ANY monster, why would players do anything but sell them to the obscenely rich? but so many people would do this, that as I've said a few times, market floods, price is driven down and out, thus crashing the charm market to a point where people may not want to sell them unless they're the select few who dont train summoning.

 

 

 

My argument isnt flawed, and neither is yours. They both work in the way we present them, mine is a wholeistic view of the members economy, and every single possible source of charms. Your's shows the top production of charms. if anything the two theories work together to form a stable market somewhere in between what the charm farmers would produce vs what the average player produces. the average of those two medians is where your price will end up, and seeing as there are probably more people doing general killing, and would obviously pick up every charm if they were worth 1k+ after all they are stackable, the price would be lowered from the MAX profit you'd get from the "best" forms of charm farming.

 

 

 

This is hypothetical analysis- you have to assume the best and worst case scenarios, and they do factor in with eachother. Runescape has a very large player base, and members isnt some closely guarded secret. the number of farmers of charms, does not, and probably will not come close to the amount of charms that appear to the average player throughout the day. lets say 1000 people are diehard charm farmers, bringing in 200 charms per hour each. meanwhile, the other 30,000 members who are playing bring in about 7 charms per hour each. that market would have 200,000 charms per hour from diehard farmers, and 210,000 from casual players who might kill a goblin, or are fighting the kbd, or what have you.

 

 

 

the point is, neither of us is wrong, and trying to prove one is, is pointless in a completely hypothetical discussion. Granted a large amount of the charm economy would be from bursters/waterfiend people, but there would be at least an equal amount coming from people who arent spending that kind of money, thus bringing down the gold/charm average.

 

7 charms is actually reasonable for slayer; it's nowhere near what people claim. Yes, tasks like dusties can give 25 or so an hour, but most of the other tasks give much fewer charms, some not at all. Also, most of those charms aren't crimson. Your assuming that every single member in runescape is slaying for charms an hour a day, then selling them. Very unrealistic; granted, we are discussing a hypothetical problem. Even if the number of charms\hour from slayer was closer to 10, the average member doesn't spend an hour a day getting charms. That would mean that over half the charms would come from our 'standard' methods, and the other half would be balanced out by those currently unwilling to spend the time. If the charms were ever to drop significantly lower then the cost of bursting, even more players would begin training. It's really too hard to predict, though, and its safe to say it'll never happen.

[snowball]

I should say the math is pointless because it depends on the # of charms you already have. I can probably use my charms and have 47-50 summoning. Because of what I can summon

 

Golds and greens:1k-3k

 

crimsons-5k

 

Blue-9k (spirt spinners ftw)

[compfreak847]

I should say the math is pointless because it depends on the # of charms you already have. I can probably use my charms and have 47-50 summoning. Because of what I can summon

 

Golds and greens:1k-3k

 

crimsons-5k

 

Blue-9k (spirt spinners ftw)

 

Pointless? I'm looking from the point of total percentage; I started bursting at level 60. We're not doing the math based on XP, but based on the effort required to get charms; as such, level and current charms are irrelevant. Also, the value of the pouch does NOT determine the value of the charm.

[Monstrousity]

At a rough estimate I'd say these prices.

 

 

 

Golds - 600-700gp, purely for the fact that they are common from monsters killed on a regular basis, such as fire giants, and they are low experience. The price is boosted a bit because it doesn't cost many shards with golds.

 

 

 

Greens - 900-1100gp, I think the amount of exp you get per charm is pretty bad if you're looking at how many shards you're using, with gold it's much cheaper with the shards. Not too sure on what monsters drop these commonly, I know bloodvelds do, quite a common slayer task.

 

 

 

Crimsons - 1500-1800gp. Very common while slaying, a lot of the tasks (from duradel only) give you a lot of crimsons, (Waterfiends, Greaters, etc) These are great exp. Only thing is when you get to the higher familiars, the secondary ingredient is usually quite expensive, take rock lobsters for example, 1.3k for 500g granite.

 

 

 

Blues - 2200-2400gp. Pretty rare charms and the exp is great, It's possible to get 750k exp an hour with all blue charms, probably even more, so that's my reasoning for the high price.

 

 

 

I guess these would be the starting prices, and they would decrease over time.

[compfreak847]

Sorry, I didn't know. I just thought that 14k per crimson seemed way too high. It seems like 4k per crimson is the general consensus or somewhere around the average, anyway.

 

 

 

Yeah, but you aren't even calculating in the time it takes to get the charms. Bursting costs that much, and your wasting weeks to get 99. Hmm... wonder how much that times worth? At least 11k/crimson...

 

 

 

You say that bursting costs 700k per hour. But if bursting gets you 150 crimsons per hour and you could sell crimsons for 11k each, then you can make 950k per hour, bursting. (11k * 150 = 1,650,000; 1,650,000-700,000=950,000) Any money making method that makes almost 1mil per hour and lots of magic experience too is not going to stay like that for a long time. I think that people would be willing to lose 100k per hour just for the magic experience. So, I think that crimsons would drop to 4,000 each. (4,000 x 150=600k; 600k-700k= loss of 100k per hour)

 

Your forgetting the other money making methods available to those who don't mind the levels required and risks associated with bursting. There are many ways to make more then 950k an hour, and ways to get almost as much magic XP for far cheaper.

[brando13a]

30,000. Most likely much more.

 

 

 

7 per hour. Lol, even dusties give 30 crimsons per hour.

 

 

 

I purposely understated. of the number of members on, not all are killing things, there are usually at least 30,000 however who could be expected to be killing monsters at any given time. these players are my basis of average charms per hour, Some may be at dusties getting 30 crimsons/hour + what ever other charms they get, but then you factor in the players who are just killing random goblins/wizards or what have you that are only getting 0-10 charms per hour, the average of those players will be low, but there's alot more of them.

 

 

 

Overall, its difficult to estimate, but if gold charms were 1k each, crimsons 14k each, you can guarantee that people wouldnt be leaving charms behind ever again.

[Our_Moon]

This thread wasn't created to be a hot Flaming topic. If you want that kind of thread, look for the "All Fired Up" / Inferno Adze threads.

 

 

 

Please keep the Spam to a minimum. We all have our own opinions of what WE WOULD PAY, and no one can really tell you, "NO! You're wrong! You're not willing to pay that!/You're paying to much!" because of THEIR opinions.

[pulli23]

All I can say is it's a good thing the charms aren't tradable :P

 

 

 

If they were 6k each you would be grossing 1.2m an hour on crimson charms alone at rock lobs, which would make magic a practically free skill. Of course it couldn't stay like that; either one of two things would have to happen, chaos/death/blood runes skyrocket, or price of charms would go down. Probably the latter. No matter how much demand for charms there would be in the case of this imaginary update, there simply isn't enough demand for them since summoning would still be a very expensive skill to train, and with every spot in every world at rock lobs full 24/7, the supply would ultimately overwhelm the demand.

 

 

 

Unless rock lobs were nerfed. :P

 

 

 

I don't understand why it must be that "magic a costly skill".... I really don't get that.... I still remember the days that high level magic was THE money maker, not with pking but just with monster hunting it was!

[draco_draco]

I would say...

 

1K golds, 2-3k greens, 5k crims and 10k blues.

 

Thing is, if they were any lower, people could from 13k summoning exp get 13k-->13m summ exp in literally ONE minute, if they had the money (Stares at enipeus):

 

200M in grey chinchompas.

 

1071M in shards (could trade in pouches for shards so its way less though).

 

and 51K blue charms. That could be done in one trip to a alter...