Slayer Sucks

compfreak847 · October 24, 2008

Wrong. Qeltar gets 48k without slayer - not bad, but he's 99 in every mleee stat, paying close attention. As I showed earlier, my numbers are actually quite a bit lower this his, with REAL testing.

I posted the exact number of kills per hour he can get, and the hitpoints of the monsters. Those would also have been the numbers you yourself would have used. So unless I somehow misplaced a decimal or something i've shown what he got, and it was just short of 60k (without the three cannon ones). So please go back to that sort of table thing I posted and let me know if there was an error. If there isn't, then it is indeed just short of 60k.

First, a confession - when I first did my chart, whenever he had two results for whip + defender, I used the lower one. Skewing results slightly, I admit :oops: . Anyway, I've got a better idea; how about you point out what is wrong with my chart? This one includes the 3 monsters you sent me, (all of them except Scarabytes), and this time I averaged the values of whip + defender whenever there was more then one result.

Let me know what you find.

Yup. Which brings us back to our original argument: How, when I have better stats, equipment, pots, more actual combat time, and MUCH better prayers, are you getting so much more XP then me/ :roll:

Bandos > Proselyte

Fire Cape > Trimmed Cape

Defender > Unholy Book

Slayer Helm+Fury = Salve Ammy(e)+Helm of Neitiznot

I think I have the better equipment at the moment : . We went through this before, 1 Attack level and 4 Strength isn't that much better (You don't use Defence at Monkies). Maybe the reason they are better experience is simply because they are a better monster to train on. They don't hit that often, and with the Slayer Helmet their low Defence is very noticeable. Bandos = +6 strengthl fire cape = +4 strength; Fury = +8 strength, +10 attack. On my side: (By the way, defender resulted in 4k more XP per hour for me, so I'll be using that for comparison) Nezinot helm = +4 strength; total strength bonus = +105. X 20% = 122, vs 120 strength bonus (both without defender; to be added later). So we have +2 higher strength bonus at monkies, plus a +9 higher slash bonus. There goes the equipment argument. +4 strength would equivate out to +2% more XP; roughly 2k in our experiment. Lack of rune defender results in 4k more XP, so 2k more total when balancing for the strength bonus, or roughly 101k for monkies vs. 105k for dust devils. Like I said, zombie monkies have very, very low defence also; I rarely hit zeros, so that should have a very small, if no effect at all, on experience. Anyhow, now that everything except defence has been confirmed better for me, I'd like to point out how you failed to mention prayer. Your +10% strength vs. my +23% strength and +20% attack - a nice 13% strength and 20% attack bonus over you; quite significant. Now figure in that I never have to eat, and that I'm in continuous combat - no time wasted, EVER, for picking up drops\messing with BOBs\running between monsters. So how, again, are you getting better XP then me?

That helps explain a little bit of your numbers. Slayer requires banking and getting tasks, which knocks the XP down 8-10% (6 minutes per 54 minute task is 10%)

It doesn't take 6 minutes to get to Waterfiends. Try putting all of your Slayer equipment in the one tab in your bank. Also try to line certain items up that go together. Also have more than one of each item where possible to keeps its place in the bank. I personally have 2 Whips, 2 Pairs of Dragon Boots, 2 "barrows" gloves, multiple Defenders, multiple Fire Capes, a few DDS' and many other items on the top row of that tab. In nearly every task I use that equipment and is very easy to get out. Things like Karils, Bandos, Fury, Slayer Helm, DFS, are all at the bottom of the tab, and also are not difficult to find and get out. Not to get there; to get an assignment and bank in shilo (1.5 minutes), to get the equipment and invo set up (~1 minute), tele and deposit games necklace + run to waterfiends (2 minutes); we're already up to 4.5 minutes, and randoms, mistakes (I make plenty of those :wall: ) and invo\outfit setup (Mine takes closer to 3-4 minutes) can also stretch it out.

Actually, you did. You were talking about how you had plenty of space with a BOB, then later asked me where you had said you were using a BOB. I quoted that, and you responded with 'you have plenty of space with a BOB'. See the problem?

I found where I mentioned BOBs, this was what I has said:

[hide=Quote]
Yes it is true, it is possible to pick up drops whilst losing no attack time. Click to pick up just as you attack, and then click attack again. Amazingly that accomplishes picking up th drop and no lose in attack time. You don't use guthans on Dust Devils, so that doesn't matter. This was with no familiar also remember. I am sure someone can bring food with them, and plenty spare in a BOB such as a spirit terrorbird at only 52 Summoning. Guthans can be replaced with so many more healing methods as it is. I have it, but I don't use as in nearly every task I have more than enough methods to stay at high Hitpoints. It is more efficient to use a whip compared to the warpsear also, hence why food is more efficient if you don't need to bank. Who mentioned picking up "every" drop either? Inventory space, with 2 super sets and 4 prayer potions, a teleport and other items, you still have half of your inventory spare. More than enoguh food to last the task and more than enough space for drops. Why do you even mention if you don't aclh cash drops alot? Are you not able to read anything I post? I have said many times now, that you don't alch there. You pick up the drops, bank them, and alch them later. You are still alching them.
[/hide]

As you see, I mentioned they could be used, but never that I use them. Nor did I say that between your inventory and a BOB you could pick up all the drops. I checked through the thread, I never even mentioned BOBs again after that. So umm... what problem? Nothing, just saying that you said that 'you have plenty of space with a BOB, indicating you used one. Let the point drop, already. Oh, and I kind of doubt you searched through the 100+ pages of text on the 12 pages of replys on this page, looking for the mention of BOBs. If so, I apologize, and hats off to you :ohnoes:

Nope, but he (and I'm starting to, starting with Kalphties), that slayer doesn't make a huge difference - the effect of the helm is almost balanced out by the extra time.

In some cases on Qeltar's numbers the difference in using the Slayer Helmet to without was almost a 15% increase in speed. So unless it takes 9 minutes to bank (when on average it is 1/3 of that), I think that Slayer Helmet bonuses make up for the banking. Some cases? More like 1, vs. 3 in support of 8-10%. 10% is quite a safe number - making the banking time 5 minutes (as explained above), would make up for it. Oh, and +10% strength and +15% strength together are a 12.5% boost; the extra attack boost from slayer would probably make up that last 2.5% for a total of 15% advantage - if you are in constant combat. Even a 5 minute between-task delay would drop that number 10%; yet I factor the FULL 15% into Qeltar's numbers. Quite an advantage; the real number is probably closer to 7%.

Yes, he probably would. Who's to prove him wrong? Just because none of us get anywhere close (besides your 18 dust devils), means he can say he's more efficient. I can't say that for sure; mabye he is just hyper efficient.

You've got to be kidding.... he probably would? His guide on Runecrafting is quite extensive and his efficiency rate there is very high. You admit that following what he does you get within half a dozen seconds of his times. His Thieving guide is also extensive and details the high rates for Thugs, many people have replied back with similar results. There is even a guide about that training method on these forums (suspiciously close to Zarfots explanation also : ). He wrote mini-guides to how he trained each other skill to 99 in his thread that was in the Goals & Achievements forums. I even copied them all into a Word doc :lol: . He has videos detailing his experience rates in those skills. So now I ask you, if he can do all that for every other skill, without lying or exaggerating... why would he do it for Slayer? That makes no sense what so ever. Again I ask, what would he have to gain if he did? Try and follow his methods like his Runecrafting guide and you will notice a significant increase in your experience per hour. Also note that some of the guides for each task weren't even his. The Spiritual Mages and Warriors (Warriors from when Duradel still assigned them), Cave Horrors and chinning Nechryaels came from other players. So yes, those rates are achieveable by other people. Which other players? Cave horrors aren't on Duradel's list, last I checked, chinning Nechs isn't the most efficient way, spiritual warriors are also not on his list, and... that leave us with spirit mages. Out of curiosity, who exactly is it that provided the numbers for the mages?

I'd like to say the exact same thing about you; my numbers are still throwing out 48k.

Refer to the first thing I quoted this post. Check the numbers in the table I provided. There were no mistakes. See table above, where I get 50k due to your new numbers and averaging Qeltar's.

Give me a link to where the 3 tasks he didn't show (Goraks, Scabarites, and Warped Terrorbirds) are.

Sure (it wasn't Scabarites though :-# ). Here they are:

Goraks

Spiritual Mages

Warped TerrorbirdsThank you. Duly noted and used in my new table.

My point was that Zarfot was comparing the cannons XP to the best range XP available to determine if it was worth it - range has gotten easier to train with grey chinchompas being discovered\dropping, making a cannon less efficient. He also never said anything about the rates between 300-500k - he simply said that it was worth it a 500k, not at 300k, leaving us to assume that 300k was not the exact threshold. Thusly the bonus of a cannon, if anything (minus the earning time), would be either useless or slightly detrimental to slayer, especially at kalphites - I was in a full world, and killing most of them nearly as fast as they respawned.

Actually, he didn't compare it to ayn other method of training Range. He determined if it was worth it because they hardly add any time, and that shooting approximately 1000 cannonballs uses up 2.5 mins (overall time to set up and refill). If you value time at only 500k an hour, it is equivalent to 57k Range and 28k Slayer experience per hour. If you value your time at 1mil per hour, then it is equivalent to 104k Range xp/h and 56k Slayer xp/h. Just because another way to train Range exists, doesn't have any impact on the efficiency of a cannon. Why? Because you are still going to average the same amount of experience per cannonball on average and they will still cost about the same. They will still only use a very little amount of time. Do you have any clue how efficiency is calculated? The cost of a cannon is weighed against the slayer XP and range XP it gives, based on how easily those skills can be trained. Grey chinchompas happens to be the most efficient form of ranging; therefore the advantage of a cannon relies almost exclusively on the price of chinchompas.

[hide=To read or not to read]As for the charms, 58-27 = 31, 27-8 = 19. Not that it matters, we're sounding more and more like squabbling children arguing over insignificant things with every post :wall:

Starting to remind me of the presidential debate... :-#[/hide]

Well that is because the average crimsons per hour hour isn't 27. Using Qeltars rates the drop rate was 39.6, or 40 crimsons per hour (equivalent to, not actually 40 crimsons). Keep in mind I stated the average was 55 (not 58) and you said it was 8. So 55-40 = 15, 40-8 = 32. Keep in mind my rate was based on slayer and facts, not made up. Qeltar was without Slayer and not training as efficiently as possible, so yes, the rate is higher still on Slayer. What do you mean, not training efficiently as possible? I thought we went though this with charms a long time ago, and I got 35 charms to your 39.6., 40 adjusted for slayer. Again, I may have to rethink my slayer adjustment forumla; it doesn't count banking time. I have the table for that too, if need be - it's in the same spreadsheet as XP. My 27 does appear to be off, though - That was due to not including your two monsters, and having a typo in my averaging formula that was including the '0 charm' results of 2 non-existent monsters :oops:

How many hours have you tested the rune defender? I spent 2 hours with defender vs. 1 hour with zammy book, and found the prayer potion savings quite worth it. HP vs. fire cape may be worth it; I'm just point out what I used. Geyser titan was not figured into cost; however, it probably should be, as you mentioned.

Put simply, the Defender has +11 extra to the Attack bonus, so it is more accurate. The Defender also has +5 extra Strength bonus, so you can hit highee. How does it not average more experience per hour? Again as I said, it comes down to only the saving on prayer potions. I'll go back and test the rates once more with a HP Cape, Unholy Book, and using the SGS for specials. But even now I can see the usage of prayer potions exceeding 8 per hour. Go right ahead, and let me know your results. I also forgot to mention that I use holy wrench. Shouldn't really make a difference, though.

I have been trying to use your methods, so I was on standard mage. Ring of wealth would have affected drops, not XP. Yes, I spent that long on tasks; it took a significant amount of time to completely switch armors and setup invos\pots. It actually took me considerably longer, but I should do it in 6-7 minutes with practice. I was unaware of fairy rings; those could decrease the time by about a minute, and improve the XP rates by 900 an hour or so.

So you were trying to use my methods, while on standard mage... I use Lunar. Ring of wealth wouldn't have affected experience, but it would have affected average profit per hour, whereas Ring of life is useless here. My inventory for these consists of House tabs (I have these on every task and I always withdraw 10, so they are alrways already in my inventory), a Holy Wrench (also already in my inventory), SGS (already in inven, I grab my Lunar Staff and Rope, 2000 cannonballs and the 3 cannon pieces. Depending on task number either 1 or 2 super sets, 1 superantipoison(+), around 3 prayer potions, I usually use a Unicorn here also since a combat won't help too much as the Kalphites die to quick. Finally 1-2 super energies and the rest food. All of those items for me come from 2 different tabs only. The gear you wear barely ever changes. I might have to switch to a Defender from a DFS, or Bandos from Karils. It really does come down to practice as well as an organised bank. Not really a whole lot to argue abut, but my gear changes quite a bit - including prayer gear, and banking all of my items + deciding which pots\food\special items to bring, withdrawing and organizing them, and actually getting to the monster (which, for quite a few monsters like greater demons\dust devils (I hate the chaos tunnels, FWIW), dragons, hellhounds, spiritual mages, suqahs, black demons, and DARK BEASTS, can take a while.

Come to think about it, I think Slayer does give less then 70kxp/hour. Zarfot has a tendency to over exaggerate, and when he's not, nobody else can pay attention like he does. (Referring to 98% of the people who play)

In the 70k per hour, he was referring to melee XP. Why you are even trying to argue over this tiny point (my post saying what Inuashakent said) is beyond me.

Couple posts ago he then said Zarfot wasn't exaggerating, so i'll just ignore this now : . He said he probably wasn't exaggerating, but I agree - we'll let it drop.

As for the rates, don't worry. Like I did with kalphites, my rates which you studiously ignored, I will be testing various slayer tasks. I WILL be using testing methods, taking screenshots of EVERY step to prove it. Right now I'm on steel dragons (Not counted, assumed to be black listed :| ), and before I did gargoyles (Which cannot be counted; I was talking to friends, which slowed my XP rate and caused me to get much lower XP then I believe I could have had I been paying 100% attention), so I will start with my next task, whatever it may be. I will be factoring out any tasks during which something happened to skew the results, both good or bad (Randoms, talking to friends etc.), and hopefully I will be able to obtain some accurate numbers. I must say, however, that my kalphite results lined up nicely with Qeltar's, although came nowhere close to Zarfot's.

I didn't ignore the rates, but if a task of 164 Kalphites takes you almost an hour, you are going very fast at all. Try using a cannon, it will significantly increase the speed of this task. You didn't come close to Zarfot's because you didn't use a cannon. Except that a cannon has been proven inefficient (see above), so using a cannon would actually decrease my XP due to the need to earn the money lost.

Yesterday I had a task of 156 Black Demons. I got there and summoned my Geyser Titan, I was using superhuman strength and pure sets every 10 mins. My Titan ran out of time and disappeared so I summoned another straight away (I has swapped 1 prayer potion for a super restore as it restores summoning points). I finished the task with 66 minutes remaining on the 2nd one. Overall the task took 72 minutes and I got 24,492 Slayer experience. 72/60 = 1.2, 24,492/1.2 = 20,410 Slayer experience in one hour. That is over 80k experience. That's with a familiar (everything so far has been without; I find it more efficient to do black demons with a Unicorn so I don't have to pray, resulting in a 10-13k loss of XP), and that apparently doesn't include any sort of banking.

I also had a task of 77 Skeletal Wyverns, when I got there I summoned my Unicorn, I also used piety throughout the task (trust me, this task is a great one for piety). I ran out of supplies and only had a few to go, so I quickly banked and came back. My Unicorn ran out of time, and I think it was 2 or 3 Whip hits after that I killed the Skeletal Wyvern, and task finished. Now these guys have 200 Hitpoints, but give 210 Slayer experience. Therefore I got 16,170 Slayer experience in 54 minutes, which is 17,967 Slayer experience per hour. I also got 61,600 melee experience in 54 minutes, which is 68,444 experience per hour. The 2nd slowest task (other than Mithril Dragons), that I haven't blocked was getting 68k experience per hour, with a bank trip during the task even. So yes, I do believe your Slayer rates are indeed quite low. Well, seeings that we are only comparing with superhuman strength (Piety is only worth it at 750k + earning rates, much higher then ours), I really don't see your results as being accurate, and obviously you didn't include banking.

Also Note Zarfot gets 22k Slayer experience per hour at Black Demons (I was only 2k less) and he gets about 19k at Skeletal Wyverns, which includes one bank per task (I was only 1k less). So yes, his rates aren't impossible to achieve, you just have to be willing to follow his advice.

See above.

FWIW, I'm starting on my project of documenting my slayer tasks - I got Greater Demons this time, and took roughly 45 screenshots detailing every aspect of my outfit, inventory, XP, potions, chat settings, unicorn timers, slayer XP, and potions, all of which will be typed up with a detailed explanation of why and how I did them. Look for it in my next post; all of it will be going in an Excel table, the main deadlock will be the uploading of my pictures (Serious cropping is required when your running at 1920X1200, think 6mb screeenshots :wall:

compfreak847 · October 24, 2008

I'm very disappointed that so much of this thread has become debate and flaming about me.

As far as I can remember, every slayer xp rate for a task given in my guide was timed for one task. However, in most cases I later timed additional tasks to try to beat my old xp rate. My goal is not to get the highest possible xp rate to put in the guide but rather find an average xp rate for me for that task. In any case, for me there were not large variations in xp rate from task to task. It is silly to claim that you need to kill some huge number of monsters to get a good average. A video of killing 18 dust devils should indeed be quite close to the average rate. Six minute tests of many skills are rarely off by 10, let alone 5 or less, percent.

I never exaggerate any of my xp rates, period. It is very frustrating when people make ridiculous claims to the contrary. Most of my videos have actually been in response to challenges by people claiming that my xp rates are not possible. For example, Lucipher6, ranked rather high on the highscores, claimed that over 70k mining xp per hour was "complete bs" yet was somewhat silent when I posted a video that proved 75.4k is possible. I have had some quarrels ingame but usually the other person ends up apologizing to me. Why I would make up xp rates just to get famous is beyond me; surely I would have posted a bank video and skillcape emote video by now if I wanted more attention?

I saw someone claim that I concentrate 100% of the time. How that would be possible while maintaining three large guides, a Youtube account, an agility guild, and formerly a Goal thread, I don't know. How I would be posting on this forum if I was really concentrating 100% of the time, I don't know. In reality, while slaying, I was almost always multitasking to help pass the time. Alt-tab is a great keyboard shortcut, by the way. Whether I listen to RuneScape music or not has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and how someone would know what I listen to just based on a few videos that I let the RuneScape music play on, I don't know. (In reality I listen to other music the majority of the time.)

Just because none of the several people debating here has achieved certain xp rates I have gotten doesn't mean they are unreachable for anyone other than me. I have many friends ingame who achieve similar rates. Many times I have found myself challenged to achieve an xp rate that someone I know has achieved.

The 70k melee xp per hour on average I stated in the guide should be fairly accurate for someone slaying using fast methods; however, I did not acquire that number with an actual long-term test with that piece of data in mind but rather with some estimation. If anything it may be a bit low; I may actually have been getting closer to 80k. And just because I'm stating some xp rate doesn't mean the "average" person gets 50% of that or whatever. If you're that slow at slayer I think 110k melee xp/hour at Zombie Monkeys is very questionable.

In response to the topic of the thread, I'd hesitate to post real calculations because someone would instantly dismiss them as wrong because supposedly I pay 100% attention or have 2306236 bill cash or whatever. I'm sure that everyone would agree that slayer is a skill, however, and to train it you also get xp in melee, range, hitpoints, and get charms. If you are going to have to train slayer anyway, say for a total level goal, why train those other skills using other methods? Only in the case that someone sees slayer xp as worthless or near worthless would it be debatable that slayer is not worth it. I do not think it is reasonable to label xp in any skill as worthless, however. So what if you won't end up camping at some high level slayer monster to make cash? Not everything is about money.

If all that matters is how "useful" a skill is, why would ANYONE train cooking, crafting, construction, agility, herblore, thieving, fletching, smithing, firemaking, woodcutting, and maybe other skills too depending on your opinions, since all of those are generally poor moneymakers compared to other parts of the game? What is money good for anyway; to train more skills or to make more money?

In my opinion, the value of xp in a skill should not be assessed only by how useful the skill is. If you train slayer, every hour of slayer training is shown on the highscores in your slayer xp, but all that other xp may be considered just extra.

Obviously training continuously at Monkey Zombies is much faster melee xp than training slayer. Obviously killing Waterfiends or Bursting/Barraging Rock Lobsters is much faster summoning xp than training slayer. Obviously you could make more money killing Aviansies or the God Wars Dungeon bosses than by training slayer. You probably could get almost as fast melee xp and way more summoning xp by meleeing waterfiends instead of training slayer. But none of those get faster slayer xp than training slayer. It's as simple as that and whether you agree with that or not is as simple as whether you think gaining xp in skills that are not necessarily "useful" is valuable or not.

Arguing about as fundamental a belief as that is silly.

It's also silly to argue about xp rates that have been proven to be possible and to discredit someone who has repeatedly proven xp rates when challenged.

I didn't even know you ever browsed on Tip.it. Welcome to the forums :thumbsup:

This is going to make the discussion much more interesting. Perhaps you can shed some light on why my and Qeltar's rates are so different from yours. Hopefully I'll be able to post my greater demon rates in a few minutes.

Zarfot · October 24, 2008

Thanks compfreak847; I still need to figure out exactly how quoting people works =P

I'm not Qeltar and I've never seen videos of him obtaining xp rates so I do not know exactly why certain xp rates of his are lower than mine. I did see him ingame at a Waterfiends task a couple times but wasn't paying much attention to his speed, plus that's just one task.

But probably the most simple advice to getting the maximum rates is to realize that saving tiny amounts of time adds up. Say, if you save just 3 game ticks (1.8 seconds) per monster on average, you would save 6 minutes on 200 monsters. Now let's say that reduces a 46 minute task to a 40 minute task. That would increase your kill rate from 260 monsters/hour to 300 monsters per hour which is 15% faster. How you save those little amounts of time is by attacking as continuously as you can, picking up drops between hits if possible to not lose time. A lot of people were discussing Dust Devils and it is indeed possible to complete a task of them at over 110k melee xp per hour rate with maxed stats, Piety, no combat familiar, and half of the room to yourself; when doing tasks of them I would go minutes at a time attacking constantly with whip, 2.4 seconds per swing. Attacking more than one Dust Devil at once may help as well.

Obviously those numbers are just a quick example and I am not claiming that doing this magically makes every single task 15.0000000000000000000000% faster. I'm just saying that small amounts of time saved can make a large difference in the average xp rate.

Inuashakent · October 24, 2008

Thanks compfreak847; I still need to figure out exactly how quoting people works =P

I'm not Qeltar and I've never seen videos of him obtaining xp rates so I do not know exactly why certain xp rates of his are lower than mine. I did see him ingame at a Waterfiends task a couple times but wasn't paying much attention to his speed, plus that's just one task.

But probably the most simple advice to getting the maximum rates is to realize that saving tiny amounts of time adds up. Say, if you save just 3 game ticks (1.8 seconds) per monster on average, you would save 6 minutes on 200 monsters. Now let's say that reduces a 46 minute task to a 40 minute task. That would increase your kill rate from 260 monsters/hour to 300 monsters per hour which is 15% faster. How you save those little amounts of time is by attacking as continuously as you can, picking up drops between hits if possible to not lose time. A lot of people were discussing Dust Devils and it is indeed possible to complete a task of them at over 110k melee xp per hour rate with maxed stats, Piety, no combat familiar, and half of the room to yourself; when doing tasks of them I would go minutes at a time attacking constantly with whip, 2.4 seconds per swing. Attacking more than one Dust Devil at once may help as well.

Obviously those numbers are just a quick example and I am not claiming that doing this magically makes every single task 15.0000000000000000000000% faster. I'm just saying that small amounts of time saved can make a large difference in the average xp rate.

You see the "quote" thing on the top right corner of each post? Click that, and you'll get a [

That's basically how it works... And you can edit out what's inside.

I sent you a pm, which is on the top left corner of the screen. Also, are you planning to stay at TIF?

Zarfot · October 24, 2008

You see the "quote" thing on the top right corner of each post? Click that, and you'll get a [

That's basically how it works... And you can edit out what's inside.

I sent you a pm, which is on the top left corner of the screen. Also, are you planning to stay at TIF?

Yeah I see now, but I think it's a little silly when people spam the thread by posting a pyramid of quotes and requotes and quotes of quotes of quotes, lol.

I do browse TIF regularly and now that I have an account I might as well comment on some other threads when I feel like it, although I have no plans to post any threads here or be a very frequent user.

Inuashakent · October 24, 2008

You see the "quote" thing on the top right corner of each post? Click that, and you'll get a [

That's basically how it works... And you can edit out what's inside.

I sent you a pm, which is on the top left corner of the screen. Also, are you planning to stay at TIF?

Yeah I see now, but I think it's a little silly when people spam the thread by posting a pyramid of quotes and requotes and quotes of quotes of quotes, lol.

I do browse TIF regularly and now that I have an account I might as well comment on some other threads when I feel like it, although I have no plans to post any threads here or be a very frequent user.

Yeah, it is suggested against making spam pyramids...

compfreak847 · October 24, 2008

^ ^

Yeah, I have a tendency to do that. We could use you on Tip.it, Zarfot. Stay!

Anyway, my results for greater demons are out! Every step has been screenshotted to be confirmed; these XP rates are EXACT.

This is just the beginning; now that I have this as a template, I will be using it for every assignment hereafter.

http://www.file()factory.com/file/ddbce1/n/Greater_Demons_pdf

Take out the () from the link, Tip.it has a problem with file hosting sites. filefactory.com is a 'Warning: Possibly Dangerous Link!' site.

Yes, I know it's a download. It's a PDF, at 8.08k. It's not going to hack your computer. Get over it. If someone other then me would post detailing how an 8 kilobyte PDF file isn't going to instantly trash your computer and send me your username and password, it would be appreciated.

(For What It's Worth, I have nothing opposed to slayer - I think it's a fun skill, and I plan on training it more. I would, in fact, be happy to be proven wrong about the XP being worse. But I don't plan on being proved wrong ;) )

EDIT: Duradel hates me. Next task: 147 Greater Demons. I'll work on it tomorrow, I've already wasted too much time on rune-related stuff (6 page spreadsheets take a while to create...). At least it'll give me an opportunity to add to the validity of my tasks; I'm interested in how close my 2nd results are.

ydrasil · October 24, 2008

First, a confession - when I first did my chart, whenever he had two results for whip + defender, I used the lower one. Skewing results slightly, I admit :oops: . Anyway, I've got a better idea; how about you point out what is wrong with my chart? This one includes the 3 monsters you sent me, (all of them except Scarabytes), and this time I averaged the values of whip + defender whenever there was more then one result.

Let me know what you find.

The image doesn't show for me. If you can get it show i'll check it out.

Bandos = +6 strengthl fire cape = +4 strength; Fury = +8 strength, +10 attack. On my side: (By the way, defender resulted in 4k more XP per hour for me, so I'll be using that for comparison) Nezinot helm = +4 strength; total strength bonus = +105. X 20% = 122, vs 120 strength bonus (both without defender; to be added later). So we have +2 higher strength bonus at monkies, plus a +9 higher slash bonus. There goes the equipment argument. +4 strength would equivate out to +2% more XP; roughly 2k in our experiment. Lack of rune defender results in 4k more XP, so 2k more total when balancing for the strength bonus, or roughly 101k for monkies vs. 105k for dust devils. Like I said, zombie monkies have very, very low defence also; I rarely hit zeros, so that should have a very small, if no effect at all, on experience. Anyhow, now that everything except defence has been confirmed better for me, I'd like to point out how you failed to mention prayer. Your +10% strength vs. my +23% strength and +20% attack - a nice 13% strength and 20% attack bonus over you; quite significant. Now figure in that I never have to eat, and that I'm in continuous combat - no time wasted, EVER, for picking up drops\messing with BOBs\running between monsters. So how, again, are you getting better XP then me?

With your side you multiplied the strength bonus(?) by 20% I think it was. The Salve Ammy(e) affects your level not the bonus, as does the Slayer Helm. What I wear gives a +124 attack bonus, +125 strength bonus as well as the bonus from the Helm. With Salve Ammy it is +105 strength bonus and +102 attack bonus with the bonus from the Ammy. There is still a big difference in that. Also with the prayer and you saying you rarely hit, I think the answer is obvious : . It is because of piety you rarely hit. It gives a +23% attack bonus, so you will be hitting more often. You would have to test using superhuman strength for an easier comparison, then you won't have to try and adjust for the extra bonuses.

Not to get there; to get an assignment and bank in shilo (1.5 minutes), to get the equipment and invo set up (~1 minute), tele and deposit games necklace + run to waterfiends (2 minutes); we're already up to 4.5 minutes, and randoms, mistakes (I make plenty of those :wall: ) and invo\outfit setup (Mine takes closer to 3-4 minutes) can also stretch it out.

It depends how you get there. Karamja Gloves 3 is the fastest way and I think that takes about 30-40 seconds. Not entirely sure but it is under a minute. It also takes only 1 minute or less to get to Waterfiends after you tele. You should try altering your bank set out then, trust me, it will help alot.

Nothing, just saying that you said that 'you have plenty of space with a BOB, indicating you used one. Let the point drop, already. Oh, and I kind of doubt you searched through the 100+ pages of text on the 12 pages of replys on this page, looking for the mention of BOBs. If so, I apologize, and hats off to you :ohnoes:

I did :lol: . Though I started with page 6 which was when i started posting. I only read my posts though, because if I did say that, it would be in mine. So really it didn't take that long : .

Some cases? More like 1, vs. 3 in support of 8-10%. 10% is quite a safe number - making the banking time 5 minutes (as explained above), would make up for it. Oh, and +10% strength and +15% strength together are a 12.5% boost; the extra attack boost from slayer would probably make up that last 2.5% for a total of 15% advantage - if you are in constant combat. Even a 5 minute between-task delay would drop that number 10%; yet I factor the FULL 15% into Qeltar's numbers. Quite an advantage; the real number is probably closer to 7%.

Ideally, you would have to actually test the difference in using Slayer Helm and prayer compared to without. There is no accurate way to say otherwise as it would affect different monsters by certain amounts. High Defence monsters won't have as big an increasecompared to say Dust Devils or Spiritual Mages.

Which other players? Cave horrors aren't on Duradel's list, last I checked, chinning Nechs isn't the most efficient way, spiritual warriors are also not on his list, and... that leave us with spirit mages. Out of curiosity, who exactly is it that provided the numbers for the mages?

Cave Horrors used to be and so did Spiritual Warriors. Sumona still assigns them however. Chinning Nech's is more efficient at 1.5mil profit per hour I think it was :shock: . As for who provided them, i'd have to check again, but you could do that.

What do you mean, not training efficiently as possible? I thought we went though this with charms a long time ago, and I got 35 charms to your 39.6., 40 adjusted for slayer. Again, I may have to rethink my slayer adjustment forumla; it doesn't count banking time. I have the table for that too, if need be - it's in the same spreadsheet as XP. My 27 does appear to be off, though - That was due to not including your two monsters, and having a typo in my averaging formula that was including the '0 charm' results of 2 non-existent monsters :oops:

As Zarfot mentioned a bit after this post, the little things add up : .

Not really a whole lot to argue abut, but my gear changes quite a bit - including prayer gear, and banking all of my items + deciding which pots\food\special items to bring, withdrawing and organizing them, and actually getting to the monster (which, for quite a few monsters like greater demons\dust devils (I hate the chaos tunnels, FWIW), dragons, hellhounds, spiritual mages, suqahs, black demons, and DARK BEASTS, can take a while.

Have a couple proselyte sets then also, that way they stay in the same spot each time when you bank. I organise my inventory also, but with how I do, it is already organised as I withdraw. With the Chaos tunnels, there is only ever 2 entrances I use. The one in level 4 wildy west of the Zamorak Mage, and the one in 13 wildy north-east of the Zamorak mage. The north-east goes to cave bugs, one teleport away from them is the Baby Black Dragons. The other entrance takes you to Gargoyles. Take the north-west portal twice, and you'll be Zamorak Monks, the north-east portal from there and at Dust Devils. If you take the portal north of that you are at Black Demons. Take the west portal from there and you are in with Bronze Dragons (so be careful) and Earth Warriors. Take the North to level 88 Dagannoths (use range prayer), and then the east portal takes you to Nechryaels. So effectively all those tasks arealong the same path, only have to remember the one way : . Also, if on Lunar, Suqahs are the fastest task to get to.

Except that a cannon has been proven inefficient (see above), so using a cannon would actually decrease my XP due to the need to earn the money lost.

Only inefficient at 300k or less per hour. With Aviansies it would be worth it though.

That's with a familiar (everything so far has been without; I find it more efficient to do black demons with a Unicorn so I don't have to pray, resulting in a 10-13k loss of XP), and that apparently doesn't include any sort of banking.

It is worth using prayer. I got a few Ranarr and three Rune Chain's from that task, which more than payed for what I used : . I didn't bank either, but even with a familiar, that is still 80k experience which is very good.

Well, seeings that we are only comparing with superhuman strength (Piety is only worth it at 750k + earning rates, much higher then ours), I really don't see your results as being accurate, and obviously you didn't include banking.

In this case, the task should really only be done with piety or not at all. The reason for it isn't just to hit higher, that extra Attack is vital to killing them at a decent speed. I also only used 11 (I think) Prayer potions for all 77. I included the bank trip I took during the task, and I don't time banking inbetween tasks (nor does Zarfot, so that still means I was close to his rate : ).

FWIW, I'm starting on my project of documenting my slayer tasks - I got Greater Demons this time, and took roughly 45 screenshots detailing every aspect of my outfit, inventory, XP, potions, chat settings, unicorn timers, slayer XP, and potions, all of which will be typed up with a detailed explanation of why and how I did them. Look for it in my next post; all of it will be going in an Excel table, the main deadlock will be the uploading of my pictures (Serious cropping is required when your running at 1920X1200, think 6mb screeenshots :wall:

Good luck with that, will take a long time.

I also had a task of 163 Spiritual Mages today (no boots :( ), according to the timer on my Geyser Titan it took 33 minutes. That extrapolates to 22.2k Slayer experience per hour.

Anyway, my results for greater demons are out! Every step has been screenshotted to be confirmed; these XP rates are EXACT.

This is just the beginning; now that I have this as a template, I will be using it for every assignment hereafter.

http://www.file()factory.com/file/ddbce1/n/Greater_Demons_pdf

Take out the () from the link, Tip.it has a problem with file hosting sites. [Warning].com is a 'Warning: Possibly Dangerous Link!' site.

Yes, I know it's a download. It's a PDF, at 8.08k. It's not going to hack your computer. Get over it. If someone other then me would post detailing how an 8 kilobyte PDF file isn't going to instantly trash your computer and send me your username and password, it would be appreciated.

(For What It's Worth, I have nothing opposed to slayer - I think it's a fun skill, and I plan on training it more. I would, in fact, be happy to be proven wrong about the XP being worse. But I don't plan on being proved wrong ;) )

EDIT: Duradel hates me. Next task: 147 Greater Demons. I'll work on it tomorrow, I've already wasted too much time on rune-related stuff (6 page spreadsheets take a while to create...). At least it'll give me an opportunity to add to the validity of my tasks; I'm interested in how close my 2nd results are.

Don't use that Link! I got a virus!

Just kidding, it's safe so i'll vouch for it :lol:

According to that table, you got 59.2k of just melee xp/h, so see, even the slower tasks are faster than what you said originally \ . If you factor Hitpoints experience in you would get to an overall experience per hour of 108,342. Out of curiosity, what numbers did you use for working out the Summoning experience?

With what Inuashakent said about the spam pyramids, my posts are usually long, but that is why I cut the quotes down all the time.

Inuashakent · October 24, 2008

I don't consider these spam pyramids. You guys obviously never seen a thread devoted to one... (Think they had one in the forum games... HUGE)

compfreak847 · October 24, 2008

First, a confession - when I first did my chart, whenever he had two results for whip + defender, I used the lower one. Skewing results slightly, I admit :oops: . Anyway, I've got a better idea; how about you point out what is wrong with my chart? This one includes the 3 monsters you sent me, (all of them except Scarabytes), and this time I averaged the values of whip + defender whenever there was more then one result.

Let me know what you find.

The image doesn't show for me. If you can get it show i'll check it out. http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=graphqe2.jpg

There's a direct link to it.

Bandos = +6 strengthl fire cape = +4 strength; Fury = +8 strength, +10 attack. On my side: (By the way, defender resulted in 4k more XP per hour for me, so I'll be using that for comparison) Nezinot helm = +4 strength; total strength bonus = +105. X 20% = 122, vs 120 strength bonus (both without defender; to be added later). So we have +2 higher strength bonus at monkies, plus a +9 higher slash bonus. There goes the equipment argument. +4 strength would equivate out to +2% more XP; roughly 2k in our experiment. Lack of rune defender results in 4k more XP, so 2k more total when balancing for the strength bonus, or roughly 101k for monkies vs. 105k for dust devils. Like I said, zombie monkies have very, very low defence also; I rarely hit zeros, so that should have a very small, if no effect at all, on experience. Anyhow, now that everything except defence has been confirmed better for me, I'd like to point out how you failed to mention prayer. Your +10% strength vs. my +23% strength and +20% attack - a nice 13% strength and 20% attack bonus over you; quite significant. Now figure in that I never have to eat, and that I'm in continuous combat - no time wasted, EVER, for picking up drops\messing with BOBs\running between monsters. So how, again, are you getting better XP then me?

With your side you multiplied the strength bonus(?) by 20% I think it was. The Salve Ammy(e) affects your level not the bonus, as does the Slayer Helm. What I wear gives a +124 attack bonus, +125 strength bonus as well as the bonus from the Helm. With Salve Ammy it is +105 strength bonus and +102 attack bonus with the bonus from the Ammy. There is still a big difference in that. Also with the prayer and you saying you rarely hit, I think the answer is obvious : . It is because of piety you rarely hit. It gives a +23% attack bonus, so you will be hitting more often. You would have to test using superhuman strength for an easier comparison, then you won't have to try and adjust for the extra bonuses. There are no extra bonuses. Anyway, strength level vs. bonus is generally considered a 50\50 split; it shouldn't make much difference either way. I'm saying piety (normally, when I'm relaxed training, I DO use superhuman strength, but get quite a bit lower XP; I haven't documented exactly how much), is still getting less XP then you; how could that possibly be?

Not to get there; to get an assignment and bank in shilo (1.5 minutes), to get the equipment and invo set up (~1 minute), tele and deposit games necklace + run to waterfiends (2 minutes); we're already up to 4.5 minutes, and randoms, mistakes (I make plenty of those :wall: ) and invo\outfit setup (Mine takes closer to 3-4 minutes) can also stretch it out.

It depends how you get there. Karamja Gloves 3 is the fastest way and I think that takes about 30-40 seconds. Not entirely sure but it is under a minute. It also takes only 1 minute or less to get to Waterfiends after you tele. You should try altering your bank set out then, trust me, it will help alot. I'm not sure, 1 minute for waterfiends sounds rather suspicious - I always get close to 2 minutes, not including setup time. It's 46 seconds for a tele, if your fast.

Nothing, just saying that you said that 'you have plenty of space with a BOB, indicating you used one. Let the point drop, already. Oh, and I kind of doubt you searched through the 100+ pages of text on the 12 pages of replys on this page, looking for the mention of BOBs. If so, I apologize, and hats off to you :ohnoes:

I did :lol: . Though I started with page 6 which was when i started posting. I only read my posts though, because if I did say that, it would be in mine. So really it didn't take that long : . But I could have said it, and you said yes or something along the lines of it. Not that it matters :lol:

Some cases? More like 1, vs. 3 in support of 8-10%. 10% is quite a safe number - making the banking time 5 minutes (as explained above), would make up for it. Oh, and +10% strength and +15% strength together are a 12.5% boost; the extra attack boost from slayer would probably make up that last 2.5% for a total of 15% advantage - if you are in constant combat. Even a 5 minute between-task delay would drop that number 10%; yet I factor the FULL 15% into Qeltar's numbers. Quite an advantage; the real number is probably closer to 7%.

Ideally, you would have to actually test the difference in using Slayer Helm and prayer compared to without. There is no accurate way to say otherwise as it would affect different monsters by certain amounts. High Defence monsters won't have as big an increasecompared to say Dust Devils or Spiritual Mages. Actually, the opposite's probably true - high defence monsters where you only hit, on average, 50% of the time, would probably show the greatest difference, as the full advantage of both bonuses would come into play. Still, considering the time and low defence of almost every task, 15% is very generous.

Which other players? Cave horrors aren't on Duradel's list, last I checked, chinning Nechs isn't the most efficient way, spiritual warriors are also not on his list, and... that leave us with spirit mages. Out of curiosity, who exactly is it that provided the numbers for the mages?

Cave Horrors used to be and so did Spiritual Warriors. Sumona still assigns them however. Chinning Nech's is more efficient at 1.5mil profit per hour I think it was :shock: . As for who provided them, i'd have to check again, but you could do that. It doesn't really matter, I guess, but it would be nice to know where he got them.

What do you mean, not training efficiently as possible? I thought we went though this with charms a long time ago, and I got 35 charms to your 39.6., 40 adjusted for slayer. Again, I may have to rethink my slayer adjustment forumla; it doesn't count banking time. I have the table for that too, if need be - it's in the same spreadsheet as XP. My 27 does appear to be off, though - That was due to not including your two monsters, and having a typo in my averaging formula that was including the '0 charm' results of 2 non-existent monsters :oops:

As Zarfot mentioned a bit after this post, the little things add up . :oops:

Not really a whole lot to argue abut, but my gear changes quite a bit - including prayer gear, and banking all of my items + deciding which pots\food\special items to bring, withdrawing and organizing them, and actually getting to the monster (which, for quite a few monsters like greater demons\dust devils (I hate the chaos tunnels, FWIW), dragons, hellhounds, spiritual mages, suqahs, black demons, and DARK BEASTS, can take a while.

Have a couple proselyte sets then also, that way they stay in the same spot each time when you bank. I organise my inventory also, but with how I do, it is already organised as I withdraw. With the Chaos tunnels, there is only ever 2 entrances I use. The one in level 4 wildy west of the Zamorak Mage, and the one in 13 wildy north-east of the Zamorak mage. The north-east goes to cave bugs, one teleport away from them is the Baby Black Dragons. The other entrance takes you to Gargoyles. Take the north-west portal twice, and you'll be Zamorak Monks, the north-east portal from there and at Dust Devils. If you take the portal north of that you are at Black Demons. Take the west portal from there and you are in with Bronze Dragons (so be careful) and Earth Warriors. Take the North to level 88 Dagannoths (use range prayer), and then the east portal takes you to Nechryaels. So effectively all those tasks arealong the same path, only have to remember the one way. Also, if on Lunar, Suqahs are the fastest task to get to. Except 1/3rd the time your taking them, the portals misfire and you spend 5 minutes trying to find your way back. It's the one thing I hate about the chaos tunnels; happens to me almost every time with bork. :wall:

Except that a cannon has been proven inefficient (see above), so using a cannon would actually decrease my XP due to the need to earn the money lost.

Only inefficient at 300k or less per hour. With Aviansies it would be worth it though. What are you talking about? All we know is that with old chinchompa figures it was 300-500k for inefficiency, and probably considerably higher now.

That's with a familiar (everything so far has been without; I find it more efficient to do black demons with a Unicorn so I don't have to pray, resulting in a 10-13k loss of XP), and that apparently doesn't include any sort of banking.

It is worth using prayer. I got a few Ranarr and three Rune Chain's from that task, which more than payed for what I used. I didn't bank either, but even with a familiar, that is still 80k experience which is very good. Well, all of our figures have been with superhuman strength, so unless your recording exactly what you earn\spend, (as I am in my spreadsheets), you can't go changing prayers when tracking XP.

Well, seeings that we are only comparing with superhuman strength (Piety is only worth it at 750k + earning rates, much higher then ours), I really don't see your results as being accurate, and obviously you didn't include banking.

In this case, the task should really only be done with piety or not at all. The reason for it isn't just to hit higher, that extra Attack is vital to killing them at a decent speed. I also only used 11 (I think) Prayer potions for all 77. I included the bank trip I took during the task, and I don't time banking inbetween tasks (nor does Zarfot, so that still means I was close to his rate). See above; unless your recording everything you can't suddenly switch prayers to compare XP. You have been saying, all along, that ALL of this has been done with superhuman strength; that's what we're using for comparison.

FWIW, I'm starting on my project of documenting my slayer tasks - I got Greater Demons this time, and took roughly 45 screenshots detailing every aspect of my outfit, inventory, XP, potions, chat settings, unicorn timers, slayer XP, and potions, all of which will be typed up with a detailed explanation of why and how I did them. Look for it in my next post; all of it will be going in an Excel table, the main deadlock will be the uploading of my pictures (Serious cropping is required when your running at 1920X1200, think 6mb screeenshots

Good luck with that, will take a long time. Yup.

I also had a task of 163 Spiritual Mages today (no boots :( ), according to the timer on my Geyser Titan it took 33 minutes. That extrapolates to 22.2k Slayer experience per hour.

Anyway, my results for greater demons are out! Every step has been screenshotted to be confirmed; these XP rates are EXACT.

This is just the beginning; now that I have this as a template, I will be using it for every assignment hereafter.

http://www.file()factory.com/file/ddbce1/n/Greater_Demons_pdf

Take out the () from the link, Tip.it has a problem with file hosting sites. [Warning].com is a 'Warning: Possibly Dangerous Link!' site.

Yes, I know it's a download. It's a PDF, at 8.08k. It's not going to hack your computer. Get over it. If someone other then me would post detailing how an 8 kilobyte PDF file isn't going to instantly trash your computer and send me your username and password, it would be appreciated.

(For What It's Worth, I have nothing opposed to slayer - I think it's a fun skill, and I plan on training it more. I would, in fact, be happy to be proven wrong about the XP being worse. But I don't plan on being proved wrong ;) )

EDIT: Duradel hates me. Next task: 147 Greater Demons. I'll work on it tomorrow, I've already wasted too much time on rune-related stuff (6 page spreadsheets take a while to create...). At least it'll give me an opportunity to add to the validity of my tasks; I'm interested in how close my 2nd results are.

Don't use that Link! I got a virus!

Just kidding, it's safe so i'll vouch for it

According to that table, you got 59.2k of just melee xp/h, so see, even the slower tasks are faster than what you said originally \ . If you factor Hitpoints experience in you would get to an overall experience per hour of 108,342. Out of curiosity, what numbers did you use for working out the Summoning experience? Notice the table with my charm drops? :lol:

With what Inuashakent said about the spam pyramids, my posts are usually long, but that is why I cut the quotes down all the time.

Yup, I have a tendancy to simply change colors and move on. These aren't really big pyramids, though - I've seen 21 level quote trains (When the new php3 boards came out, they set a 3 depth limit on quotes. There was rioting in the streets.)

gongusan · October 24, 2008

The one thing that really pisses me off is when people say that 'your slayer lvl is too low for your combat'.

Umm, slayer isn't the only way to to train combat?

ydrasil · October 24, 2008

http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=graphqe2.jpg

There's a direct link to it.

Thanks for the link.

The calculations themselves are correct. Some of the numbers you used were an average of what weltar got in 2 different methods, which is good, except for one task. For Spiritual mages you used 155 as an average, but in one of those tests he didn't use a pure set/zammy brew+super strength. So only the higher one (with zammy brew+super strength) should have been used. With the Bloodvelds, you got your numbers from Bloodvelds (sounds odd doesn't it? :? ). I got mine from Mutated Bloodvelds, the rate for those was alot higher. The Waterfiends number comes from Qeltar, but have said yourself that you get just short of 100 (actual) crimsons per hour, which is closer to about 120 kills. With the Warped Terrorbirds, I think it was just a typo, not on purpose. You used an average of 61, when the average was 91. Also I didn't use Black Dragons, because he didn't have the method I use (which is alot faster and more efficient). Baby Black Dragons are the best way to do that task in my opinion and it gets a higher experience rate also.

So while there is nothing wrong with table itself, some of the numbers need to be fixed is all.

There are no extra bonuses. Anyway, strength level vs. bonus is generally considered a 50\50 split; it shouldn't make much difference either way. I'm saying piety (normally, when I'm relaxed training, I DO use superhuman strength, but get quite a bit lower XP; I haven't documented exactly how much), is still getting less XP then you; how could that possibly be?

I'm don't know how to pinpoint why Dust Devils are better experience. All I know is that they give great experience, so that makes them a task I always do.

I'm not sure, 1 minute for waterfiends sounds rather suspicious - I always get close to 2 minutes, not including setup time. It's 46 seconds for a tele, if your fast.

Once you grab the gear and potions, you tele, use the necklace on the bank deposit box and run to the whirlpool. You don't even have to bank if you don't want, and you could use it as your teleport in replace of a tab.

Actually, the opposite's probably true - high defence monsters where you only hit, on average, 50% of the time, would probably show the greatest difference, as the full advantage of both bonuses would come into play. Still, considering the time and low defence of almost every task, 15% is very generous.

That might even be the case. But if their Defence is high, a slight increase in attack will not have the biggest affect. Like at Mithril Dragons, the extra 15% from the Helm doesn't get you hitting much more often. If anything you want something in the middle of the Defence range. That way the increase in hitting is noticeable, and with the Helm you hit a decent amount higher.

Except 1/3rd the time your taking them, the portals misfire and you spend 5 minutes trying to find your way back. It's the one thing I hate about the chaos tunnels; happens to me almost every time with bork. :wall:

1.3 is a bit much, but it has happened to me, but not that often. It has even randomly taken me to the next portal so I even get to the monster quicker sometimes : . I entered the west portal in the mummy room. Instead of taking me to the south-west portal in the zamorak monk room, it took me to the north-east one, which is the portal I would have used next. So I didn't have to run across the whole room :lol: . There also seems to be a limit to how far away they can send you. So you won't end up that far of course usually.

What are you talking about? All we know is that with old chinchompa figures it was 300-500k for inefficiency, and probably considerably higher now.

The cannon wasn't being compared to chinchompas though. It was simply about how much you make per hour and the time lost being 2.5 minutes for 1,000 cannonballs. So the cost of training with chinchompas is irrelevant as it only comes down to whether the cannon is going to save you time and money or not. If you can make over 300k per hour, it saves time. If not, don't use a cannon.

Well, all of our figures have been with superhuman strength, so unless your recording exactly what you earn\spend, (as I am in my spreadsheets), you can't go changing prayers when tracking XP.

Technically i'm not changing prayers. I have always used piety on Skeletal Wyverns. If you get a task of these, try with piety and with superhuman strength, there is a huge difference. There was another person there killing them when I got there, I think he was around 120 or so. I was killing about 2-3 on average in the time it ook for him to kill 1. Some times I even got up to 4 kills before he managed it (I got lucky with a couple DDS specials, 29+7 then 37+36 :thumbsup: ).

See above; unless your recording everything you can't suddenly switch prayers to compare XP. You have been saying, all along, that ALL of this has been done with superhuman strength; that's what we're using for comparison.

As I said, i've always used piety on this task. I also said that I use superhuman strength as a minimum, not that I use it on every task. Sometimes I may use ultimate strength or piety if I feel like it. I used piety on Nechryaels yesterday and was hitting up to 51 with Whip, a 129 there who was using a BGS kept going "omfg", was funny :lol: .

Notice the table with my charm drops? :lol:

Not what I meant. How much experience did you use for each gold, green, crimson and blue charm? You've said 10.2 gold is 2.1 crimsons, but what numbers did you use to get that? You got 13,574 Summoning experience from 42 crimsons, which is about 323 each. On the way to 96 Summoning from Slayer, the average experience is just over 350, so 350 for each is ideal.

Yup, I have a tendancy to simply change colors and move on. These aren't really big pyramids, though - I've seen 21 level quote trains (When the new php3 boards came out, they set a 3 depth limit on quotes. There was rioting in the streets.)

21 level quotes :shock: . Geez, and I thought these posts were getting long.

compfreak847 · October 24, 2008

http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=graphqe2.jpg

There's a direct link to it.

Thanks for the link.

The calculations themselves are correct. Some of the numbers you used were an average of what weltar got in 2 different methods, which is good, except for one task. For Spiritual mages you used 155 as an average, but in one of those tests he didn't use a pure set/zammy brew+super strength. So only the higher one (with zammy brew+super strength) should have been used. With the Bloodvelds, you got your numbers from Bloodvelds (sounds odd doesn't it? :? ). I got mine from Mutated Bloodvelds, the rate for those was alot higher. The Waterfiends number comes from Qeltar, but have said yourself that you get just short of 100 (actual) crimsons per hour, which is closer to about 120 kills. With the Warped Terrorbirds, I think it was just a typo, not on purpose. You used an average of 61, when the average was 91. Also I didn't use Black Dragons, because he didn't have the method I use (which is alot faster and more efficient). Baby Black Dragons are the best way to do that task in my opinion and it gets a higher experience rate also. My waterfiend rate is considerably higher due to piety and void. Other numbers duely noted and corrected; that drove up my overall rate to 51.8k, 59.6k adjusted. Where are you getting your 61k? :shock:

So while there is nothing wrong with table itself, some of the numbers need to be fixed is all.

There are no extra bonuses. Anyway, strength level vs. bonus is generally considered a 50\50 split; it shouldn't make much difference either way. I'm saying piety (normally, when I'm relaxed training, I DO use superhuman strength, but get quite a bit lower XP; I haven't documented exactly how much), is still getting less XP then you; how could that possibly be?

I'm don't know how to pinpoint why Dust Devils are better experience. All I know is that they give great experience, so that makes them a task I always do.

I'm using it as a point to illistruate that you are either exadurating, lying, or have a better whip then I do :lol: I'm in more combat more of the time, hitting more often, with as-good or better equipment, better stats, and much better prayers - and I'm still getting less XP then you.

I'm not sure, 1 minute for waterfiends sounds rather suspicious - I always get close to 2 minutes, not including setup time. It's 46 seconds for a tele, if your fast.

Once you grab the gear and potions, you tele, use the necklace on the bank deposit box and run to the whirlpool. You don't even have to bank if you don't want, and you could use it as your teleport in replace of a tab.Bad idea - a 1 click tele has saved my hide before at waterfiends\mith drags, and slayer gloves set up new tasks quite nicely (Lunar mage, however, can help with that - but it's a big invo space waster to have runes for any tele + spellbook swap + contact other. Waterfiends do take a bit of time to get to, too, if you use the (better) spot on the far side of the dungeon.

Actually, the opposite's probably true - high defence monsters where you only hit, on average, 50% of the time, would probably show the greatest difference, as the full advantage of both bonuses would come into play. Still, considering the time and low defence of almost every task, 15% is very generous.

That might even be the case. But if their Defence is high, a slight increase in attack will not have the biggest affect. Like at Mithril Dragons, the extra 15% from the Helm doesn't get you hitting much more often. If anything you want something in the middle of the Defence range. That way the increase in hitting is noticeable, and with the Helm you hit a decent amount higher. Now that I think about it, the defence level doesn't make a difference. It's still 15% overall (If you hit 100% of the time, your only using +15% strength. If you hit 50% of the time, your using your strenght bonus half the time and your attack bonus half the time), so half of that would be 7.5%; the effect of the slayer mask. Assuming 1 hour assignments, that's 4.5 minutes per assignment to make training slayer worth it.

Except 1/3rd the time your taking them, the portals misfire and you spend 5 minutes trying to find your way back. It's the one thing I hate about the chaos tunnels; happens to me almost every time with bork. :wall:

1.3 is a bit much, but it has happened to me, but not that often. It has even randomly taken me to the next portal so I even get to the monster quicker sometimes : . I entered the west portal in the mummy room. Instead of taking me to the south-west portal in the zamorak monk room, it took me to the north-east one, which is the portal I would have used next. So I didn't have to run across the whole room :lol: . There also seems to be a limit to how far away they can send you. So you won't end up that far of course usually. That is true, but it annoys me a lot; I've forgotten a tele and wandered around lost for 20 minutes, almost dying from lack of food and prayer with ~15m in gear, because half the portals sent me somewhere else.

What are you talking about? All we know is that with old chinchompa figures it was 300-500k for inefficiency, and probably considerably higher now.

The cannon wasn't being compared to chinchompas though. It was simply about how much you make per hour and the time lost being 2.5 minutes for 1,000 cannonballs. So the cost of training with chinchompas is irrelevant as it only comes down to whether the cannon is going to save you time and money or not. If you can make over 300k per hour, it saves time. If not, don't use a cannon. -.- Your really not getting this. The 'break even' point is calculated using the best manor of training slayer\range vs. the cannon.

Well, all of our figures have been with superhuman strength, so unless your recording exactly what you earn\spend, (as I am in my spreadsheets), you can't go changing prayers when tracking XP.

Technically i'm not changing prayers. I have always used piety on Skeletal Wyverns. If you get a task of these, try with piety and with superhuman strength, there is a huge difference. There was another person there killing them when I got there, I think he was around 120 or so. I was killing about 2-3 on average in the time it ook for him to kill 1. Some times I even got up to 4 kills before he managed it (I got lucky with a couple DDS specials, 29+7 then 37+36 :thumbsup: ). You stated that you always used superhuman strength; that is what I am testing. I can't go adjusting for every task...

See above; unless your recording everything you can't suddenly switch prayers to compare XP. You have been saying, all along, that ALL of this has been done with superhuman strength; that's what we're using for comparison.

As I said, i've always used piety on this task. I also said that I use superhuman strength as a minimum, not that I use it on every task. Sometimes I may use ultimate strength or piety if I feel like it. I used piety on Nechryaels yesterday and was hitting up to 51 with Whip, a 129 there who was using a BGS kept going "omfg", was funny :lol: . Then you can't count your rates when you say your only using superhuman strength. I'm willing to test whatever, but we've got to picka prayer and stick with it. But yeah, piety is fun - I've managed some amazing specs with dd++ on a steel dragon :?

Notice the table with my charm drops? :lol:

Not what I meant. How much experience did you use for each gold, green, crimson and blue charm? You've said 10.2 gold is 2.1 crimsons, but what numbers did you use to get that? You got 13,574 Summoning experience from 42 crimsons, which is about 323 each. On the way to 96 Summoning from Slayer, the average experience is just over 350, so 350 for each is ideal. I'm using level 52 Spirit Terrorbirds for gold charms, at 68.4 xp each. Barker toad pouches are not worth it; the 2nds are very expensive and very hard to buy. I'm using the Fruit Bat, a level 69 summon giving 121.2 XP per pouch for green charms; it is the only one with a reasonable 2nd besides Unicorn Stallion, which I consider rather high leveld for the average player, and in fact, the point where most players stop there summoning *cough*. For crimson, I used the previously established level 74 Granite Lobster pouches, giving 325.6 XP each.

Yup, I have a tendancy to simply change colors and move on. These aren't really big pyramids, though - I've seen 21 level quote trains (When the new php3 boards came out, they set a 3 depth limit on quotes. There was rioting in the streets.)

21 level quotes :shock: . Geez, and I thought these posts were getting long.

Not necessarily long, just 'one sentence' *quote* 'one sentence' *quote* 'one sentence' *quote* and so forth. Lots of quotes, not many words.

ydrasil · October 25, 2008

My waterfiend rate is considerably higher due to piety and void. Other numbers duely noted and corrected; that drove up my overall rate to 51.8k, 59.6k adjusted. Where are you getting your 61k? :shock:

I checked mine and swapped out the cannon ones for melee. I got to 52.9k exprience per hour (practically the same). But it is hard to say how much to "adjust" it by for Slayer. An example of how much the Slayer Helm speeds up a task from Qeltar is Abyssal Demons.

He got 91 kills without and 112 without per hour. That is a 23% increase with just the addition of the Slayer Helm and no prayer.

On Fire Giants he got 143 without and 155 with, that is a 8.4% increase.

Gargoyles is 129 without and 137 with, a 6.2% increase.

Hellhounds is 126 without and 143 with, a 13.5% increase.

Kalphites is 162 without and 184 with, a 13.6% increase.

Nechryaels is 122 without and 140 with, a 14.8% increase.

Those were the only ones he had a est for with a Black Mask/Slayer Helm. Add prayer to that and it will get higher still.

I'm using it as a point to illistruate that you are either exadurating, lying, or have a better whip then I do :lol: I'm in more combat more of the time, hitting more often, with as-good or better equipment, better stats, and much better prayers - and I'm still getting less XP then you.

Most likely a better Whip : . I've not lied about this or exaggerated so I really don't know what causes the rates to be like this. All I know is that is what I get, as for how.... can't really say.

Bad idea - a 1 click tele has saved my hide before at waterfiends\mith drags, and slayer gloves set up new tasks quite nicely (Lunar mage, however, can help with that - but it's a big invo space waster to have runes for any tele + spellbook swap + contact other. Waterfiends do take a bit of time to get to, too, if you use the (better) spot on the far side of the dungeon.

With Lunar, I don't take the runes with me on the task. Depending on the task I take either a House Tablet or a Glory as my tele. Either way I end up at Edgeville, once there I withdraw the runes and cast NPC Contact. Also, I personally don't bother running to the far side for Waterfiends, unless the closer ones has to many people. However, in my experience, i've only ever had to go to the far side once.

Now that I think about it, the defence level doesn't make a difference. It's still 15% overall (If you hit 100% of the time, your only using +15% strength. If you hit 50% of the time, your using your strenght bonus half the time and your attack bonus half the time), so half of that would be 7.5%; the effect of the slayer mask. Assuming 1 hour assignments, that's 4.5 minutes per assignment to make training slayer worth it.

Actually, if you hit 50% of the time, you are still using the strength and attack bonus both 100% of the time. If you hit, your Strength level is going to 15% higher, not 7.5%. The 15% to Attack is in constant effect and you have a 15% higher attack not 7.5%.

That is true, but it annoys me a lot; I've forgotten a tele and wandered around lost for 20 minutes, almost dying from lack of food and prayer with ~15m in gear, because half the portals sent me somewhere else.

If it sends me of course i'll find my way back to path nearly all the time. If I can't, I just tele out and start again : . You could have used the home tele also.

-.- Your really not getting this. The 'break even' point is calculated using the best manor of training slayer\range vs. the cannon.

You 'break even' point was never gained by comparing the cannon to anything. Simply being that if you make 300k or less per hour, you can't regain what you lost in the additional time saved by using a cannon on Slayer. Anything over that and you can. So what you get with chinchompas has no affect on this.

I'll give an example from Qeltar's rates of Aberrant Spectres. He got 182 kills without a cannon, and 390 with per hour. The usage of a cannon increased his rate by 114.3%. So on average, each task of Aberrant Spectres is completed in 46.7% of the time as without. So say you had a task of 182 of them, with no cannon it would take 60 minutes, with the cannon it would take 28 minutes. In that time he used up 1,103 cannonballs (46.7% of 2364, which is the amount used per hour). So he spent an additional 209,570 (at 190 each per cannonball, the mid price at the moment), to save 32 minutes. Assume the usage of a cannon uses up 2 minutes of his time during the task. So he has 30 minutes left to re-gain the lost money, which in this case is 419,140 per hour. If you can make over that amount, a cannon is worth using at Aberrant Spectres.

As you can see, it has nothing to do with other methods of training range.

You stated that you always used superhuman strength; that is what I am testing. I can't go adjusting for every task...

I said that I used superhuman strength as a minimum. Not that I always use it.

[Then you can't count your rates when you say your only using superhuman strength. I'm willing to test whatever, but we've got to picka prayer and stick with it. But yeah, piety is fun - I've managed some amazing specs with dd++ on a steel dragon :?

Why can't it be counted? Earlier on I was showing rates from Slayer with only superhuman strength compared to the Zombie Monkies piety. That was to show that even not using the best prayer, the rates are still high and rival the Monkies. The point is, there is some tasks I would never do without piety, otherwise they just aren't worth the extra time.

I'm using level 52 Spirit Terrorbirds for gold charms, at 68.4 xp each. Barker toad pouches are not worth it; the 2nds are very expensive and very hard to buy. I'm using the Fruit Bat, a level 69 summon giving 121.2 XP per pouch for green charms; it is the only one with a reasonable 2nd besides Unicorn Stallion, which I consider rather high leveld for the average player, and in fact, the point where most players stop there summoning *cough*. For crimson, I used the previously established level 74 Granite Lobster pouches, giving 325.6 XP each.

Overall, say it is based on 52 to 96 Summoning, that requires 26,814 crimson charms. That means the average experience per crimson is 356.6 (you're not going to make Granite Lobsters all the way : ).

With the gold charms, the Raw Bird Meat costs 69 mid price and it requires 12 Spirit Shards (worth 300). So it costs 369 for 68.4 experience, which is 5.4gp per experience. With Barker Toads you use 10 Spirit Shards (250) and Swamp Toads (283 each). You spend 533 for 86 experience, which is 6.2gp per experience. Barely any extra. However, overall you will need to collect more gold charms to get the same amount of experience as with Barker Toads. You need 32.5% more charms per hour for the same amount of experience. Say you get 132 gold charms in an hour. A person making Barker Toads gets to 100 and stops, it took him 45.5 minutes to get that many. It costs him an additional 4,592 gp for the seconds, and he has 14.5 minutes spare to regain this. So if you can make over 19k gp/h ( :lol: ) Barker Toads are more efficient. So yes, I believe the Barker Toads are worth it, and i've never had much trouble buying the Swamp Toads.

I agree with the green one. With the Blue, not sure what number to use. Most people save them up till later for more experience, some use them early. I just based it on the level 79 Titans which are just short of 700, so 700 to be even.

compfreak847 · October 25, 2008

My waterfiend rate is considerably higher due to piety and void. Other numbers duely noted and corrected; that drove up my overall rate to 51.8k, 59.6k adjusted. Where are you getting your 61k? :shock:

I checked mine and swapped out the cannon ones for melee. I got to 52.9k exprience per hour (practically the same). But it is hard to say how much to "adjust" it by for Slayer. An example of how much the Slayer Helm speeds up a task from Qeltar is Abyssal Demons.

He got 91 kills without and 112 without per hour. That is a 23% increase with just the addition of the Slayer Helm and no prayer.

On Fire Giants he got 143 without and 155 with, that is a 8.4% increase.

Gargoyles is 129 without and 137 with, a 6.2% increase.

Hellhounds is 126 without and 143 with, a 13.5% increase.

Kalphites is 162 without and 184 with, a 13.6% increase.

Nechryaels is 122 without and 140 with, a 14.8% increase.

Those were the only ones he had a est for with a Black Mask/Slayer Helm. Add prayer to that and it will get higher still. Possibly, but that could also be showing the variable XP from tasks - sometimes the highs\lows of his tasks were as much as 10% apart; at least there we have 23 numbers to average out, instead of 6. Also, I'm getting quite close to his rates prorated by my figures with my testing, and my 2nd task numbers are quite close to my first in terms of XP - see my post on this in a few minutes.

I'm using it as a point to illistruate that you are either exadurating, lying, or have a better whip then I do :lol: I'm in more combat more of the time, hitting more often, with as-good or better equipment, better stats, and much better prayers - and I'm still getting less XP then you.

Most likely a better Whip : . I've not lied about this or exaggerated so I really don't know what causes the rates to be like this. All I know is that is what I get, as for how.... can't really say. That's kind of a lame argument - 'somehow I'm using worse methods, equipments, and prayers then you, yet I'm getting quite a bit more xp'. It proves what I'm saying about possible exaggeration\the dangers of scaling up 18 kills vs. several dozen hours of Zombies.

Bad idea - a 1 click tele has saved my hide before at waterfiends\mith drags, and slayer gloves set up new tasks quite nicely (Lunar mage, however, can help with that - but it's a big invo space waster to have runes for any tele + spellbook swap + contact other. Waterfiends do take a bit of time to get to, too, if you use the (better) spot on the far side of the dungeon.

With Lunar, I don't take the runes with me on the task. Depending on the task I take either a House Tablet or a Glory as my tele. Either way I end up at Edgeville, once there I withdraw the runes and cast NPC Contact. Also, I personally don't bother running to the far side for Waterfiends, unless the closer ones has to many people. However, in my experience, i've only ever had to go to the far side once. Even one person at the closer side can slow down your XP somewhat; I always use the far side.

Now that I think about it, the defence level doesn't make a difference. It's still 15% overall (If you hit 100% of the time, your only using +15% strength. If you hit 50% of the time, your using your strenght bonus half the time and your attack bonus half the time), so half of that would be 7.5%; the effect of the slayer mask. Assuming 1 hour assignments, that's 4.5 minutes per assignment to make training slayer worth it.

Actually, if you hit 50% of the time, you are still using the strength and attack bonus both 100% of the time. If you hit, your Strength level is going to 15% higher, not 7.5%. The 15% to Attack is in constant effect and you have a 15% higher attack not 7.5%. If you miss, your strength bonus is doing nothing. If you hit, your attack bonus is doing nothing. So on average, it's a 7.5% split either way on a 50% hit rate.

That is true, but it annoys me a lot; I've forgotten a tele and wandered around lost for 20 minutes, almost dying from lack of food and prayer with ~15m in gear, because half the portals sent me somewhere else.

If it sends me of course i'll find my way back to path nearly all the time. If I can't, I just tele out and start again : . You could have used the home tele also.

-.- Your really not getting this. The 'break even' point is calculated using the best manor of training slayer\range vs. the cannon.

You 'break even' point was never gained by comparing the cannon to anything. Simply being that if you make 300k or less per hour, you can't regain what you lost in the additional time saved by using a cannon on Slayer. Anything over that and you can. So what you get with chinchompas has no affect on this.

I'll give an example from Qeltar's rates of Aberrant Spectres. He got 182 kills without a cannon, and 390 with per hour. The usage of a cannon increased his rate by 114.3%. So on average, each task of Aberrant Spectres is completed in 46.7% of the time as without. So say you had a task of 182 of them, with no cannon it would take 60 minutes, with the cannon it would take 28 minutes. In that time he used up 1,103 cannonballs (46.7% of 2364, which is the amount used per hour). So he spent an additional 209,570 (at 190 each per cannonball, the mid price at the moment), to save 32 minutes. Assume the usage of a cannon uses up 2 minutes of his time during the task. So he has 30 minutes left to re-gain the lost money, which in this case is 419,140 per hour. If you can make over that amount, a cannon is worth using at Aberrant Spectres.

As you can see, it has nothing to do with other methods of training range. There are a few tasks relating to that, but your not factoring in Range XP. Oh, and since our amount is 400k, you just handily proved why a cannon is not worth it. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do... :|

You stated that you always used superhuman strength; that is what I am testing. I can't go adjusting for every task...

I said that I used superhuman strength as a minimum. Not that I always use it. Well, I don't plan on testing each task with every prayer, so we have to pick one, and according to Zarfot, the threshold for Piety is around 800k (I'm too lazy to do the calcs myself and then argue for 8 rounds about the numbers I used).

[Then you can't count your rates when you say your only using superhuman strength. I'm willing to test whatever, but we've got to picka prayer and stick with it. But yeah, piety is fun - I've managed some amazing specs with dd++ on a steel dragon :?

Why can't it be counted? Earlier on I was showing rates from Slayer with only superhuman strength compared to the Zombie Monkies piety. That was to show that even not using the best prayer, the rates are still high and rival the Monkies. The point is, there is some tasks I would never do without piety, otherwise they just aren't worth the extra time.

I'm using level 52 Spirit Terrorbirds for gold charms, at 68.4 xp each. Barker toad pouches are not worth it; the 2nds are very expensive and very hard to buy. I'm using the Fruit Bat, a level 69 summon giving 121.2 XP per pouch for green charms; it is the only one with a reasonable 2nd besides Unicorn Stallion, which I consider rather high leveld for the average player, and in fact, the point where most players stop there summoning *cough*. For crimson, I used the previously established level 74 Granite Lobster pouches, giving 325.6 XP each.

Overall, say it is based on 52 to 96 Summoning, that requires 26,814 crimson charms. That means the average experience per crimson is 356.6 (you're not going to make Granite Lobsters all the way : ).

With the gold charms, the Raw Bird Meat costs 69 mid price and it requires 12 Spirit Shards (worth 300). So it costs 369 for 68.4 experience, which is 5.4gp per experience. With Barker Toads you use 10 Spirit Shards (250) and Swamp Toads (283 each). You spend 533 for 86 experience, which is 6.2gp per experience. Barely any extra. However, overall you will need to collect more gold charms to get the same amount of experience as with Barker Toads. You need 32.5% more charms per hour for the same amount of experience. Say you get 132 gold charms in an hour. A person making Barker Toads gets to 100 and stops, it took him 45.5 minutes to get that many. It costs him an additional 4,592 gp for the seconds, and he has 14.5 minutes spare to regain this. So if you can make over 19k gp/h ( :lol: ) Barker Toads are more efficient. So yes, I believe the Barker Toads are worth it, and i've never had much trouble buying the Swamp Toads. Mmm... I didn't realize swamp toads dropped so much, they used to be 400-600 GP and almost impossible to buy :shock:

I changed my numbers to Barker Toads - it hardly affected anything, increasing my crimson by .5-.7 per hour for Greater Demonos.

I agree with the green one. With the Blue, not sure what number to use. Most people save them up till later for more experience, some use them early. I just based it on the level 79 Titans which are just short of 700, so 700 to be even. Mine are 696, which I think is a good representation. Quite a few people who only train summoning with slayer started off with a high slayer\1 summoning when slayer first came out (at this time, I don't believe anyone's gotten 0-99 slayer since it came out), meaning that they don't get as much XP and have to use their charms at a lower level.

compfreak847 · October 25, 2008

Ok, results for my 2nd round of Greater Demons! Equipment switched from Dharok's platebody to Proslyte Platebody. I'm shocked to see that my XP values are within 1.5k of each other. Quite surprising, I was expecting larger variance - but I'll have to do more tasks to make sure. All values are taken straight from screenshots; no editing of numbers (XP before task standing in shilo, XP after task with 'task complete' message plainly visible, screenshot of unicorn being summoned upon arrival of greater demons, screenshots of unicorn dying (if need be), and another one being re summoned immediately, screenshot of the unicorn timer with the 'task finished' message plainly visible, etc etc etc...)

(Note: I have split off my 'equipment' category into its own spreadsheet page; link to the latest version is included)

Without further ado, the link to the latest Greater Demon 2 results:

http://www.file()factory.com/file/45d4d1/n/Greater_Demons2_pdf

(Take the () out, Tip.IT doesn't like file sharing sites)

And the (new) equipment page:

http://www.file()factory.com/file/055ce5/n/Equipment_pdf

(Take the () out, Tip.IT doesn't like file sharing sites)

More to follow, but I can only manage about 1 a day - I don't have a lot of time, and I like to do other things (Such as GE Merching and slayer tasks without the pressure and constant attention required with testing), plus reviewing screenshots and putting\verifying everything with the spreadsheets takes time. My goal is to eventually have a set of reliable numbers for the drops, charms, and XP rates of all of Duradel's monsters, if only for the sake of an argument in this thread :lol:

ydrasil · October 25, 2008

Possibly, but that could also be showing the variable XP from tasks - sometimes the highs\lows of his tasks were as much as 10% apart; at least there we have 23 numbers to average out, instead of 6. Also, I'm getting quite close to his rates prorated by my figures with my testing, and my 2nd task numbers are quite close to my first in terms of XP - see my post on this in a few minutes.

But that was only one task you have tested so far : . Those were the only tasks where he used Black Mask/Slayer Helm, so those were the ones able to get a comparison. You would have test every other task yourself to be able to find the difference due to the Slayer Helm.

That's kind of a lame argument - 'somehow I'm using worse methods, equipments, and prayers then you, yet I'm getting quite a bit more xp'. It proves what I'm saying about possible exaggeration\the dangers of scaling up 18 kills vs. several dozen hours of Zombies.

It wasn't intended as an argument. The equipment as shown, wasn't worse, and the method is for a different monster so there will be differences. I had a guess at the reason why the prayer wasn't making you get more experience also. Maybe it is only due to using piety that you hit so well on the Monkies. Without the boost to attack you wouldn't hit as often, nor as high due to the strength increase.

I just went through my vid of Dust Devils and I checked to see how often I hit. Now that I see the numbers even I am amazed at how high the rate is. There was 107 hits with Whip, 99 of them hit. That is a 92.5% hit rate with 7.5% chance of hitting a 0. That is without piety and with a Slayer Helm, so I think it is fair to say they do have low Defence. I remember when I was testing prayer drain (superhuman strength one) at Zombie Monkies with a Whip (yes I was also super setted), that I hit alot more 0s zompared to Dust Devils.

So i'll break it up. You keep saying you are in continous combat. At Dust Devils it is easy enough to make sure you are always attacking without delaying Whip hits, so that part is the same. Equipment is harder to say which is better, they are either equal, or mine was better. An extra 5% to Strength will not make up a loss of about 20 in strength bonus. Similar for the Attack also. The prayer has a difference yes. Even with piety you are more than likely missing more often than at Dust Devils. However, if you combine the piety with the extra strength bonus from the Salve, that is an extra 18% to Strength level. That is about an extra 17 Strength levels, which is about equal to the 20 or so extra strength bonus I have at Dust Devils.

Even one person at the closer side can slow down your XP somewhat; I always use the far side.

True, but the difference is minimal. One person at the far side could also slow down the experience, so it doesn't really change. There is more than enough spawns for up to 3 people (depending on levels) to kill on the close side without a significant loss in speed.

If you miss, your strength bonus is doing nothing. If you hit, your attack bonus is doing nothing. So on average, it's a 7.5% split either way on a 50% hit rate.

Actually, if you hit, it is likely do the Attack bonus doing something. It gives you an increased chance to hit. Regardless of whether you hit or not, every time you try to hit the Attack bonus is in effect and is working 100% of the time. However, with the Strength bonus, the only time it isn't in effect is if you miss. So the Strength bonus is having an effect equal to percentage of how often you hit.

There are a few tasks relating to that, but your not factoring in Range XP. Oh, and since our amount is 400k, you just handily proved why a cannon is not worth it. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do... :|

You missed what I was trying to show. I could have added in the Range experience, but it doesn't matter. What I was simply trying to show was that a cannon is worth using, not that it is the most efficient way to train. Chinchompas are more than likely the most efficient way to train, but that doesn't make the cannon any less good to use. It is about 25k Range experience per 1k cannonballs, so it would have been about 27.6k range experience. The point was, if you make over 420k an hour, a cannon is worth using for that task (I did nothing to prove the opposite). An hour at Spiritual Mages or Aviansies will make about that also.

Well, I don't plan on testing each task with every prayer, so we have to pick one, and according to Zarfot, the threshold for Piety is around 800k (I'm too lazy to do the calcs myself and then argue for 8 rounds about the numbers I used).

What is the difference in testing other tasks with superhuman strength and Mithril Dragons and Skeletal Wyverns with piety. To compare the experience? We already know the experience is alot less due to their high defence. You don't need to test them with both prayers, just piety for those 2. The '800k threshold' comes from how much faster it lets you do the task. Zarfot estimated 20% faster I think. Although depending on the monster itself, it has cause to fluctuate.

Mmm... I didn't realize swamp toads dropped so much, they used to be 400-600 GP and almost impossible to buy :shock:

I changed my numbers to Barker Toads - it hardly affected anything, increasing my crimson by .5-.7 per hour for Greater Demonos.

You should also change the crimsons then ;) . As your tests show, the ratio of Summoning:Slayer experience is about 0.94:1 on Greaters. So at that rate it is of course getting into the high 90s for Summoning, therby also increasing the average experience per crimson. The same could also be done for green and blue, but i've not bothered to work those out. The higher your Summoning level also, the closer the ratio gets to being 1:1 due to increased experience from the charms.

platinum1004 · October 25, 2008

287 but i read the first page and last only :-w

why i didnt like slayer - i never liked being told what to do and when i was a lower lvl wanted to train a specific skill or fight a specific monster and i wanted my combat stats up as fast as i could

why i now like slayer and wish i had stopped training other methods at 90 not 99 - i have 17m - 19m in various mellee styles which i view as wasted exp vs lvls - im now a lvl freak

arguements can be made all day about exp rates and drops - do what you enjoy doing (use the rates as a guide to make you more efficient at what you enjoy), if its not slayer fine but consider stopping training on spiders etc at about 90 and doing slayer after this lvl as 90's in combat stats own - yes 99 makes a difference but not so much for the difference in exp to get there

i love slayer now with the monsters i get, the ones i have permanently banned and a mix of cash for drops and points for slayer darts - the cash made on general tasks (with sometimes a good drop for the bank) pays for cannon on others - i do hate slayer for normal range experience especially as thats one of my none 99 stats so im using cannon on slayer tasks to raise when i can, i refuse to use chins to finish off getting 99

so slayer sucked for me when i was a low lvl but i love it now im high and in hindsight i would have done it from 90 att / str / def rather than used other methods to train to 99 :wall:

i guess thats my compromise post for all you none slayers - do your fast training methods to 90 but seriously consider slayer for the rest of your journey to 99 it wont get you to 99 slayer but it will get you halfway and 91 or 92 slayer is a pretty cool lvl (higher if you throw range in there too)

i so wish i had, i might have started less than 90 att etc but definatley would have at 90 - hindsight would be a great gift to have

compfreak847 · October 25, 2008

Possibly, but that could also be showing the variable XP from tasks - sometimes the highs\lows of his tasks were as much as 10% apart; at least there we have 23 numbers to average out, instead of 6. Also, I'm getting quite close to his rates prorated by my figures with my testing, and my 2nd task numbers are quite close to my first in terms of XP - see my post on this in a few minutes.

But that was only one task you have tested so far : . Those were the only tasks where he used Black Mask/Slayer Helm, so those were the ones able to get a comparison. You would have test every other task yourself to be able to find the difference due to the Slayer Helm. I don't need to verify the difference, I just have to make sure his 'adjusted' numbers line up with mine. Which they have, at least for greater demons. More to come later...

That's kind of a lame argument - 'somehow I'm using worse methods, equipments, and prayers then you, yet I'm getting quite a bit more xp'. It proves what I'm saying about possible exaggeration\the dangers of scaling up 18 kills vs. several dozen hours of Zombies.

It wasn't intended as an argument. The equipment as shown, wasn't worse, and the method is for a different monster so there will be differences. I had a guess at the reason why the prayer wasn't making you get more experience also. Maybe it is only due to using piety that you hit so well on the Monkies. Without the boost to attack you wouldn't hit as often, nor as high due to the strength increase.It certainly wasn't better, and the only disadvantage is that I'm attacking constantly, whereas you sometimes have to pick up drops (which can delay kills), eat, or run between monsters. I'm not comparing our methods. I'm saying, if I'm doing everything better, how come your still getting better XP? You should be getting SIGNIFICANTLY lower, especially with piety - at least a 10% difference. But instead your getting 5-7% better then me. Something's not adding up.

I just went through my vid of Dust Devils and I checked to see how often I hit. Now that I see the numbers even I am amazed at how high the rate is. There was 107 hits with Whip, 99 of them hit. That is a 92.5% hit rate with 7.5% chance of hitting a 0. That is without piety and with a Slayer Helm, so I think it is fair to say they do have low Defence. I remember when I was testing prayer drain (superhuman strength one) at Zombie Monkies with a Whip (yes I was also super setted), that I hit alot more 0s zompared to Dust Devils. Then you should have tested piety, because that's what I'm using for comparison, and although I haven't done any hit spread tests, it's right up there with Dust Devils.

So i'll break it up. You keep saying you are in continous combat. At Dust Devils it is easy enough to make sure you are always attacking without delaying Whip hits, so that part is the same. Equipment is harder to say which is better, they are either equal, or mine was better. An extra 5% to Strength will not make up a loss of about 20 in strength bonus. Similar for the Attack also. The prayer has a difference yes. Even with piety you are more than likely missing more often than at Dust Devils. However, if you combine the piety with the extra strength bonus from the Salve, that is an extra 18% to Strength level. That is about an extra 17 Strength levels, which is about equal to the 20 or so extra strength bonus I have at Dust Devils. Yup, so our equipment is roughly the same. But you can't say that your NEVER missing a SINGLE whip hit at dust devils - but I can make that claim at zombies.

Even one person at the closer side can slow down your XP somewhat; I always use the far side.

True, but the difference is minimal. One person at the far side could also slow down the experience, so it doesn't really change. There is more than enough spawns for up to 3 people (depending on levels) to kill on the close side without a significant loss in speed. No, there isn't. You have to run quite a bit more with one person; it's far better to go to the far side. But mabye I shouldn't listen to you, as you seem to be getting around 50% more crimsons then me with slayer helm vs. void, superhuman strength vs. piety. Oh, and both me and Inushkant have done a LOT of tests - I've done 20-30, Inushkant got 90 slayer on them, averaging 95 crimsons; I averaged 98, 105 with void. Vs. your 144-150 with superhuman strength. :|

If you miss, your strength bonus is doing nothing. If you hit, your attack bonus is doing nothing. So on average, it's a 7.5% split either way on a 50% hit rate.

Actually, if you hit, it is likely do the Attack bonus doing something. It gives you an increased chance to hit. Regardless of whether you hit or not, every time you try to hit the Attack bonus is in effect and is working 100% of the time. However, with the Strength bonus, the only time it isn't in effect is if you miss. So the Strength bonus is having an effect equal to percentage of how often you hit. That's what I'm saying - If you would have hit a zzero but hit instead, your attack bonus helped. But that only happens 15% of the time you miss. Look at how often you were talking about hitting dust devils - extra attack would reduce your zeros by 15 (well, 7.5%), but for that other 92.5% of the time when you would have hit anyway, your attack bonus isn't doing anything.

There are a few tasks relating to that, but your not factoring in Range XP. Oh, and since our amount is 400k, you just handily proved why a cannon is not worth it. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do... :|

You missed what I was trying to show. I could have added in the Range experience, but it doesn't matter. What I was simply trying to show was that a cannon is worth using, not that it is the most efficient way to train. Chinchompas are more than likely the most efficient way to train, but that doesn't make the cannon any less good to use. It is about 25k Range experience per 1k cannonballs, so it would have been about 27.6k range experience. The point was, if you make over 420k an hour, a cannon is worth using for that task (I did nothing to prove the opposite). An hour at Spiritual Mages or Aviansies will make about that also. And I pointed our that your doing it the wrong way - your ignoring the range XP that it makes. But you also proved that cannon ISN'T worth using, because we're using 400k per hour instead of 421k. So using a cannon would make our numbers go down slightly.

Well, I don't plan on testing each task with every prayer, so we have to pick one, and according to Zarfot, the threshold for Piety is around 800k (I'm too lazy to do the calcs myself and then argue for 8 rounds about the numbers I used).

What is the difference in testing other tasks with superhuman strength and Mithril Dragons and Skeletal Wyverns with piety. To compare the experience? We already know the experience is alot less due to their high defence. You don't need to test them with both prayers, just piety for those 2. The '800k threshold' comes from how much faster it lets you do the task. Zarfot estimated 20% faster I think. Although depending on the monster itself, it has cause to fluctuate. Exactly. You seem to be terribly confused over the whole 'threshold' and 'efficiency calculations'. That means, if you have a method of making 800k per hour, the extra time you save using piety will take exactly hat long to make up the cost. If you make LESS then 800k, the extra time to earn the money will take MORE time then will be saved using piety. We make half that, so piety will make all of our numbers go down - bad news for slayer XP.

Mmm... I didn't realize swamp toads dropped so much, they used to be 400-600 GP and almost impossible to buy :shock:

I changed my numbers to Barker Toads - it hardly affected anything, increasing my crimson by .5-.7 per hour for Greater Demonos.

You should also change the crimsons then ;) . As your tests show, the ratio of Summoning:Slayer experience is about 0.94:1 on Greaters. So at that rate it is of course getting into the high 90s for Summoning, therby also increasing the average experience per crimson. The same could also be done for green and blue, but i've not bothered to work those out. The higher your Summoning level also, the closer the ratio gets to being 1:1 due to increased experience from the charms.

Why? 325 XP on crimsons works quite nicely - you factored from 52 summoning and zero slayer to get 343; I'm saying it should be the opposite. For what its worth, I changed the 325.6 to343 as a test - it made my XP per hour from crimsons at greater demons (one of the best droppers, mind you), go up around 700 xp per hour. I think 325.6 is a nice number, thank you very much. Blues are quite good where they are.

compfreak847 · October 25, 2008

287 but i read the first page and last only :-w

why i didnt like slayer - i never liked being told what to do and when i was a lower lvl wanted to train a specific skill or fight a specific monster and i wanted my combat stats up as fast as i could

why i now like slayer and wish i had stopped training other methods at 90 not 99 - i have 17m - 19m in various mellee styles which i view as wasted exp vs lvls - im now a lvl freak

arguements can be made all day about exp rates and drops - do what you enjoy doing (use the rates as a guide to make you more efficient at what you enjoy), if its not slayer fine but consider stopping training on spiders etc at about 90 and doing slayer after this lvl as 90's in combat stats own - yes 99 makes a difference but not so much for the difference in exp to get there

i love slayer now with the monsters i get, the ones i have permanently banned and a mix of cash for drops and points for slayer darts - the cash made on general tasks (with sometimes a good drop for the bank) pays for cannon on others - i do hate slayer for normal range experience especially as thats one of my none 99 stats so im using cannon on slayer tasks to raise when i can, i refuse to use chins to finish off getting 99

so slayer sucked for me when i was a low lvl but i love it now im high and in hindsight i would have done it from 90 att / str / def rather than used other methods to train to 99 :wall:

i guess thats my compromise post for all you none slayers - do your fast training methods to 90 but seriously consider slayer for the rest of your journey to 99 it wont get you to 99 slayer but it will get you halfway and 91 or 92 slayer is a pretty cool lvl (higher if you throw range in there too)

i so wish i had, i might have started less than 90 att etc but definatley would have at 90 - hindsight would be a great gift to have

I don't blame you, the posts on here tend to be quite gargantuan. I've typed over 80 pages and around 50,000 words on here myself. :?

You have a decnt point - if you want to train slayer, you should do it before you max out. But there's only 2 reasons to train it at 99 melees:

#1, total levels

#2, fun

Total levels? For most players, they would stop in the mid 70s. I could train other skills that are currently in the 60s cheaper and faster then slayer, despite being almost 99 melees. Unless you find it fun, there's no reason to train it higher.

Skyflipper0 · October 25, 2008

Slayer is the best way to train combat.

compfreak847 · October 25, 2008

Slayer is the best way to train combat.

Care to elaborate? I'm guessing this is an attempt at trolling :?

ydrasil · October 25, 2008

I don't need to verify the difference, I just have to make sure his 'adjusted' numbers line up with mine. Which they have, at least for greater demons. More to come later...

So far only one task however. Wait till you have done alot more.

It certainly wasn't better, and the only disadvantage is that I'm attacking constantly, whereas you sometimes have to pick up drops (which can delay kills), eat, or run between monsters. I'm not comparing our methods. I'm saying, if I'm doing everything better, how come your still getting better XP? You should be getting SIGNIFICANTLY lower, especially with piety - at least a 10% difference. But instead your getting 5-7% better then me. Something's not adding up.

Yes sometimes I have to pick up drops but that doesn't lose attack time. Eating at the right will still slow you down, but by 0.5-1 Whip hit. As for running between monsters, yes I do have to run sometimes.... for about 2 steps. They spawn close together, and I always try to have 2 attacking me at once. This allows me to always be attacking and the time to run to another doesn't matter, because as I move towards another one, I am still attacking one. Everything is still fine in my eyes. Zombie Monkies will simply have a higher Defence level than Dust Devils.

Then you should have tested piety, because that's what I'm using for comparison, and although I haven't done any hit spread tests, it's right up there with Dust Devils.

I'll test later.

Yup, so our equipment is roughly the same. But you can't say that your NEVER missing a SINGLE whip hit at dust devils - but I can make that claim at zombies.

I won't say I never miss a hit, but I rarely do. Also at zombies every 10 mins you need to run away (which takes longer than 10 seconds i'm sure). However, that is not alot of time lost in the long run, that is about how much I would lose with missed Whip hits.

No, there isn't. You have to run quite a bit more with one person; it's far better to go to the far side. But mabye I shouldn't listen to you, as you seem to be getting around 50% more crimsons then me with slayer helm vs. void, superhuman strength vs. piety. Oh, and both me and Inushkant have done a LOT of tests - I've done 20-30, Inushkant got 90 slayer on them, averaging 95 crimsons; I averaged 98, 105 with void. Vs. your 144-150 with superhuman strength. :|

If there is one other person, you don't have to run that much further. The 144 crimsons wasn't from me. If you recall back to when I posted the average Summoning experience per hour during all the Slayer tasks, I got the averages from Zarfot's guides. I said that I personally don't get that high. I also said that I get about 100 crimsons per hour while on Slayer for Waterfiends. Add in the other charms and the equivalent of maybe 110.

That's what I'm saying - If you would have hit a zzero but hit instead, your attack bonus helped. But that only happens 15% of the time you miss. Look at how often you were talking about hitting dust devils - extra attack would reduce your zeros by 15 (well, 7.5%), but for that other 92.5% of the time when you would have hit anyway, your attack bonus isn't doing anything.

That is wrong. A 15% bonus to Attack level isn't a 15% bonus to accuracy. I was hitting at that high a rate due to the use of a Slayer Helm. If I say turned on incredible reflexes (+15% Attack prayer), I would hit more often. That isn't 7.5% or whatever you think it is though. Put simply with Slayer and no attack prayer, I am hitting with the equivalent of 108 Attack on every Whip hit. Each hit is being calculated with that number. With an extra 15% from prayer, I would have 122 Attack. How much more often would I hit now? Not alot of room for change, I might hit overall 95% of the time though.

What you don't understand is that your attack level is in effect all the time. You can't say for 92.5% I would have hit anyway and the rest is determind by the extra bonus. You only hit 92.5% of the time due to the increased Attack. A person with 122 attack would hit slightly more often on Dust Devils compared to someone with 108. Either way it doesn't matter, as the bonus is always in effect.

And I pointed our that your doing it the wrong way - your ignoring the range XP that it makes. But you also proved that cannon ISN'T worth using, because we're using 400k per hour instead of 421k. So using a cannon would make our numbers go down slightly.

How was I doing it the wrong way? Elaborate please. The only "wrong thing" you mentioned before was that I wasn't factoring in Range experience. I explained why it didn't matter for this. The point is, with a cannon, you would complete a task of Aberrant Spectres in 47.7% of the time it would take without. You would spend 209k to save that 32 minutes. However, you would have used up about 2 minutes on the task to load the cannon up all the time. You have still have 30 mins free time in which to make up that much. If as you say I factor in Range experience, that makes the cannon even better, not worse. If you say value your Range experience at 5gp per experience point, that means in Range experience you gained 137,875gp in Range experience. That means that on the task you spent the equivalent of 71,695gp in order to complete the task that much fastre as well as the Range experience. That means a cannon is worth it if you can make over 143,390gp/h. Now obviously not everyone values their Range experience at 5gp each, but since there will be a value regardless, the cannon only becomes better, not worse.

As for you saying that we have been using 400k per hour. That was your number. I personally value my time as over 1mil per hour (I love Runecrafting : ). No-one says we have to use 400k per hour. I was just stating that for a cannon to be worth it (if you value Range experience at 0), you would have to make over 421k. Spiritual Mages can make up to 450k per hour, and you also gain experience. So technically if you value melee experience than your value of time is over 450k.

Exactly. You seem to be terribly confused over the whole 'threshold' and 'efficiency calculations'. That means, if you have a method of making 800k per hour, the extra time you save using piety will take exactly hat long to make up the cost. If you make LESS then 800k, the extra time to earn the money will take MORE time then will be saved using piety. We make half that, so piety will make all of our numbers go down - bad news for slayer XP.

You've misunderstood how to calculate it. You simply quoted Zarfot's guide with no idea how he got that number. While I do agree with alot of things in his guides, I also think for myself. I understand that he got that number by assuming tasks go 20% faster with piety as compared to no prayer. There is also a factor of how fast your Prayer drains and what your level is (higher level = more restoration per dose of Prayer potion). With a +19 Prayer bonus with a level of say 75 Prayer (potions restore 27 prayer). In an hour it drains 1500 prayer points. That is 13.9, or 14 prayer potions per hour to compensate for that. Going 20% faster you save 8.33 minutes each hour. At a cost of 7,552 (current mid), you spend 105,728 to save 8.33 minutes, that is 761,241 per hour.

It depends on many factors, one of which is how much faster it lets you do tasks. If on Skeletal Wyverns you go more than 20% faster than with no prayer, then the value of 761k drops. If it speeds up by less than 20%, the value increases. Now i'm not entirely sure what the other person was using, but when I did a task of 77 of them, I mentioned I was killing faster than someone else there (also on slayer). I was killing up to 4 in the time he took for one, and he was about 120 combat. Even if I only killed on average 1.5 for his 1 (though it was really alot higher), that is about 50% faster. So yes, piety for certain tasks if definately worth it in my opinion.

Why? 325 XP on crimsons works quite nicely - you factored from 52 summoning and zero slayer to get 343; I'm saying it should be the opposite. For what its worth, I changed the 325.6 to343 as a test - it made my XP per hour from crimsons at greater demons (one of the best droppers, mind you), go up around 700 xp per hour. I think 325.6 is a nice number, thank you very much. Blues are quite good where they are.

When have I said 343? If you got all your charms from doing say 0-99 Slayer (Zarfot did 13.8m experience which is over 0-99, however that got him to 99 Summoning) or even from higher at 73/80-99, you would end up with Summoning in the 90s. If Zarfot did 13.8m Slayer xp and 13m Summoning, that means his average ratio was 1:0.94. Even dropping it to 1:0.9, to get to 96 Summoning from 52 requires you get 10.5m Slayer experience. 80-99 Slayer will get that much and a little more. So what does that mean? With 96 Summoning requiring 26k crimsons, it average to just over 356 per crimson. All that working out just showed that you don't have to start at 0 Slayer to get to 96 Summoning.

-EDIT

I performed another test at Zombie Monkies (well, 2 in 1 really). To see the Prayer drain rate with piety+protect from melee while using a Trimmed Cape, Unholy Book and SGS for specials. I also tested to see how often I hit. I also tested to see how long it takes to run away and come back to get them agressive again. I wasn't sure the best place to run to, but it took me 23 seconds, but I doublebacked a bit so 20 seconds seems good. I'll show the Prayer drain working first:

Had Prayer on for 10:08, but 10 minutes to round it off.

I used up 2.5 Prayer potions in that time.

so 600 seconds to drain that much, add on the 20 seconds to run away and come back 620.

620/3600 = 0.172

2.5/0.172 = 14.52, so 14.5 Prayer Potions per hour.

14.5*7,552 = 109,504

With just calculating Prayer only it is 110k loss per hour.

I went through and watched it again. I did 259 Hits in total (SGS included). 231 hit, which is an 89.2% hit rate. 28 missed, which is 10.8% miss rate. I don't see how much clearer this can get. Even with piety compared to Dust Devils superhuman strength, you hit on Zombie Monkies less often. So as I predicted, the reason you rarely miss at Zombie Monkies is only because of piety. Even then, you still hit more often on Dust Devils. Also note that my stats for testing this were 95 95 95, on Dust Devils that was with 94 94 94. So if anything the results were slightly biased towards the Zombie Monkies.

Put simply, everything as you have put it was in favour of Zombie Monkies. Slightly higher stats, more bonuses from Prayer, I was even using the Accurate mode of Whip compared to at Dust Devils where I used Controlled (extra 2 Attack levels in favour of the Monkies) and you still hit less often. Also I noted that at the rate I was getting experience it was 98.4k Attack experience/hour. That should answer a few questions.

Skyflipper0 · October 25, 2008

Slayer is the best way to train combat.

Care to elaborate? I'm guessing this is an attempt at trolling :?

Well, the only thing you told about Slayer is 'training combat'.

But Slayer is a skill on his own, it's not only about training combat.

Slayer is unique, look at those boring repetitive skills such as fletching, cooking, woodcutting, mining, even training combat @ bandits or at those monkeys is repetitive.

Why slayer doesn't suck?

Because of the possibilities

Because their aint alot repetitive aspects than other skills have

What about solving a clue now and then, using your keris at kalphite guardians etc...

And another thing, in my opinion, Slayer is indeed THE best to train combat. But not in xp/hour, cause like you said, indeed there are better places to camp at. But Slayer is the best because of the variety of tasks (creatures to kills) that's what I like, and that is my opinion!

It's just nice to train Slayer, but not only for the combat experience

Although on a normal slaying day, I can get 600k+ xp in Att/str/def, so it isn't bad xp either.

I would prefer to commit suicide in stead of training 600k xp at those monkeys.

Note: These are my thoughts of Slayer. I respected yours, I would like it if you respect mines.

compfreak847 · October 25, 2008

I don't need to verify the difference, I just have to make sure his 'adjusted' numbers line up with mine. Which they have, at least for greater demons. More to come later...

So far only one task however. Wait till you have done alot more. I've done two trials to his comparison six. My 3rd should be done this evening. I guess this argument will be put on hold for a couple of days.

It certainly wasn't better, and the only disadvantage is that I'm attacking constantly, whereas you sometimes have to pick up drops (which can delay kills), eat, or run between monsters. I'm not comparing our methods. I'm saying, if I'm doing everything better, how come your still getting better XP? You should be getting SIGNIFICANTLY lower, especially with piety - at least a 10% difference. But instead your getting 5-7% better then me. Something's not adding up.

Yes sometimes I have to pick up drops but that doesn't lose attack time. Eating at the right will still slow you down, but by 0.5-1 Whip hit. As for running between monsters, yes I do have to run sometimes.... for about 2 steps. They spawn close together, and I always try to have 2 attacking me at once. This allows me to always be attacking and the time to run to another doesn't matter, because as I move towards another one, I am still attacking one. Everything is still fine in my eyes. Zombie Monkies will simply have a higher Defence level than Dust Devils. With piety, I'm hitting more then you are on dust devils - and I'm ALWAYS hitting, I NEVER miss a single opportunity for a whip hit - unlike your dust devils, which, perfect though you may be, your not going to ALWAYS hit PERFECTLY. I didn't even count the time (which, actually, IS 10 seconds - it's the edge of the screen and back) to make them aggressive; factoring that in would cut my XP by roughly 900 over the course of an hour.

Then you should have tested piety, because that's what I'm using for comparison, and although I haven't done any hit spread tests, it's right up there with Dust Devils.

I'll test later. Go right ahead. Let me know if you get quite a bit less XP with it; it's the only way that can explain the fact that your getting more XP with superhuman strength.

Yup, so our equipment is roughly the same. But you can't say that your NEVER missing a SINGLE whip hit at dust devils - but I can make that claim at zombies.

I won't say I never miss a hit, but I rarely do. Also at zombies every 10 mins you need to run away (which takes longer than 10 seconds i'm sure). However, that is not alot of time lost in the long run, that is about how much I would lose with missed Whip hits. It doesn't, try it yourself - the first 10 minute, you run north on the little ledge about a dozen squares and back. The second time usuall takes west the same amount; occasionally you have to go up and down the ladder, which is closer to 14 seconds. Pots are drank while hitting.

No, there isn't. You have to run quite a bit more with one person; it's far better to go to the far side. But mabye I shouldn't listen to you, as you seem to be getting around 50% more crimsons then me with slayer helm vs. void, superhuman strength vs. piety. Oh, and both me and Inushkant have done a LOT of tests - I've done 20-30, Inushkant got 90 slayer on them, averaging 95 crimsons; I averaged 98, 105 with void. Vs. your 144-150 with superhuman strength. :|

If there is one other person, you don't have to run that much further. The 144 crimsons wasn't from me. If you recall back to when I posted the average Summoning experience per hour during all the Slayer tasks, I got the averages from Zarfot's guides. I said that I personally don't get that high. I also said that I get about 100 crimsons per hour while on Slayer for Waterfiends. Add in the other charms and the equivalent of maybe 110. Well, since your using Zarfot's rates for all your arguments, why would you come out and say you get 30% less then him? I get about that too, so I agree, but it's certainly working against you if you can't even get close to your chosen rates.

That's what I'm saying - If you would have hit a zzero but hit instead, your attack bonus helped. But that only happens 15% of the time you miss. Look at how often you were talking about hitting dust devils - extra attack would reduce your zeros by 15 (well, 7.5%), but for that other 92.5% of the time when you would have hit anyway, your attack bonus isn't doing anything.

That is wrong. A 15% bonus to Attack level isn't a 15% bonus to accuracy. I was hitting at that high a rate due to the use of a Slayer Helm. If I say turned on incredible reflexes (+15% Attack prayer), I would hit more often. That isn't 7.5% or whatever you think it is though. Put simply with Slayer and no attack prayer, I am hitting with the equivalent of 108 Attack on every Whip hit. Each hit is being calculated with that number. With an extra 15% from prayer, I would have 122 Attack. How much more often would I hit now? Not alot of room for change, I might hit overall 95% of the time though. Wrong, you would hit 7.5% less zeros - assuming you would hit 92.5% normally, meaning 7.5% zeros, you would hit around 6.95% zeros, making your overall hits 93 instead of 92.5%. A 15% bonus to hits means that you hit 0s 7.5% less, not that you hit 7.5% more.

What you don't understand is that your attack level is in effect all the time. You can't say for 92.5% I would have hit anyway and the rest is determind by the extra bonus. You only hit 92.5% of the time due to the increased Attack. A person with 122 attack would hit slightly more often on Dust Devils compared to someone with 108. Either way it doesn't matter, as the bonus is always in effect. See above post.

And I pointed our that your doing it the wrong way - your ignoring the range XP that it makes. But you also proved that cannon ISN'T worth using, because we're using 400k per hour instead of 421k. So using a cannon would make our numbers go down slightly.

How was I doing it the wrong way? Elaborate please. The only "wrong thing" you mentioned before was that I wasn't factoring in Range experience. I explained why it didn't matter for this. The point is, with a cannon, you would complete a task of Aberrant Spectres in 47.7% of the time it would take without. You would spend 209k to save that 32 minutes. However, you would have used up about 2 minutes on the task to load the cannon up all the time. You have still have 30 mins free time in which to make up that much. If as you say I factor in Range experience, that makes the cannon even better, not worse. If you say value your Range experience at 5gp per experience point, that means in Range experience you gained 137,875gp in Range experience. That means that on the task you spent the equivalent of 71,695gp in order to complete the task that much fastre as well as the Range experience. That means a cannon is worth it if you can make over 143,390gp/h. Now obviously not everyone values their Range experience at 5gp each, but since there will be a value regardless, the cannon only becomes better, not worse. Your doing it wrong. Don't pick it by task; look at the numbers for a cannon. I guess you've forced me to do them myself. Here goes.

Cannonball: Average hit of 12.5 (15 average hit; misses 1/6th the time)

Average slayer monster's HP is 120; given the average hit of 12.5, you will hit a KO hit 1/9.6 times, or 10.4% of the time - of that time, you will lose, on average, half of the max hit, meaning that 10.4% of the time you will only hit 6.25, reducing our average hit by .625, for a total of:

Average hit: 11.9 (rounded)

11.9 = 11.9 Slayer XP + 23.8 Range XP

Value of Range XP:

480k + 1 hr w\ Grey Chinchompas = 240k range XP

1 hr = 400k profit w\ Avansies

Total cost of 240k range XP = 880k, 3.67 GP\Range XP

Cost of 1 cannonball = 190 GP + .34 seconds (5 minutes for 1,000 cannonballs = .34 seconds per ball)

.34 seconds = 400,000 GP @ Avansies / 3600 seconds = 111.11 X .34 (seconds per ball) = 37.7 GP per .34 seconds

Cost of 1 cannonball = 190 + 37.7 = 227.7

If your using ONLY a cannon, without meleeing in a single combat zone, cost per cannonball 190 + 400 (1000 cannonballs vs. 1 hour of Avansies). This would be true at places like Black Demons; however, it is assumed you would also be using a bow, bringing in an additional 50k range XP. Range XP is worth 3.67 GP, so 50k range XP = 183.5k; subtracting that from the 400k at avansies leaves us with:

Cost of 1 cannonball, using a cannon + ranging in a single combat zone = 190 + (216500 / 1000) = 406.5 GP per cannonball.

Now, on to calculate the Range XP given.

In a multi zone, we get:

23.8 range XP for 227.7 GP, making for:

227.7/23.8 = 9.57 GP\Range XP, vs. 3.67 GP for Range XP with Avansies, loss of 5.9 GP per XP.

The 5.9 GP\XP cost is going towards slayer, earning us half the range XP, or 11.8 GP\slayer XP.

11.8 GP\XP X 13,034,000 XP = 153.8M GP\99 slayer - almost 1.5x our calculated cost of 99 slayer, in terms of time lost - proving cannon anything but worthwhile. And alll of that is HARD data, except for the 1/6th zero rate - which I believe is quite conservaitive, and really has very little effect on XP.

How about ranging with a cannon at single combat at a place like black demons, while using a shortbow for yourself in a safespot, like so many guides recommend?

Calcs for the cannonball cost are above.

In a singlezone, we get:

23.8 range XP for 406.5 GP, making for:

227.7/23.8 = 9.57 GP\Range XP, vs. 3.67 GP for Range XP with Avansies, loss of 5.9 GP per XP.

The 5.9 GP\XP cost is going towards slayer, earning us half the range XP, or 11.8 GP\slayer XP.

11.8 GP\XP X 13,034,000 XP = 153.8M GP\99 slayer - almost 1.5x our calculated cost of 99 slayer, in terms of time lost - proving cannon anything but worthwhile.

As for you saying that we have been using 400k per hour. That was your number. I personally value my time as over 1mil per hour (I love Runecrafting : ). No-one says we have to use 400k per hour. I was just stating that for a cannon to be worth it (if you value Range experience at 0), you would have to make over 421k. Spiritual Mages can make up to 450k per hour, and you also gain experience. So technically if you value melee experience than your value of time is over 450k. You do realize that if we add an alternate money maker with a higher rate, it will DRASTICALLY increase MY comparison numbers at zombies\avansies, making it FAR worse for slayer? I knew if I use GWD @ 1m an hour, it would result in many angry posters saying that not everyone could earn that, making my numbers invalid, so I used the much less 400k an hour from Avansies, a moneymaker that almost everyone uses. If you wanted to, I could run my calcs over again with 1m instead of 400k, but the numbers would look SIGNIFICANTLY worse for slayer.

Exactly. You seem to be terribly confused over the whole 'threshold' and 'efficiency calculations'. That means, if you have a method of making 800k per hour, the extra time you save using piety will take exactly hat long to make up the cost. If you make LESS then 800k, the extra time to earn the money will take MORE time then will be saved using piety. We make half that, so piety will make all of our numbers go down - bad news for slayer XP.

You've misunderstood how to calculate it. You simply quoted Zarfot's guide with no idea how he got that number. While I do agree with alot of things in his guides, I also think for myself. I understand that he got that number by assuming tasks go 20% faster with piety as compared to no prayer. There is also a factor of how fast your Prayer drains and what your level is (higher level = more restoration per dose of Prayer potion). With a +19 Prayer bonus with a level of say 75 Prayer (potions restore 27 prayer). In an hour it drains 1500 prayer points. That is 13.9, or 14 prayer potions per hour to compensate for that. Going 20% faster you save 8.33 minutes each hour. At a cost of 7,552 (current mid), you spend 105,728 to save 8.33 minutes, that is 761,241 per hour.

It depends on many factors, one of which is how much faster it lets you do tasks. If on Skeletal Wyverns you go more than 20% faster than with no prayer, then the value of 761k drops. If it speeds up by less than 20%, the value increases. Now i'm not entirely sure what the other person was using, but when I did a task of 77 of them, I mentioned I was killing faster than someone else there (also on slayer). I was killing up to 4 in the time he took for one, and he was about 120 combat. Even if I only killed on average 1.5 for his 1 (though it was really alot higher), that is about 50% faster. So yes, piety for certain tasks if definately worth it in my opinion. To make it worth 400k, your going to have to have it speed up your kills by 38% - not likely, considering that vs. superhuman strength, it increases your attack by 10% (20% / 2; equipment bonus vs. levels), and your actual hits by 11.5% (23 / 2; equipment bonus vs. levels), for a MAXIMUM speedup of 20%; nowhere close to that 40%, and that's for continuous combat! Plus, that's simply to make it break even, or be no better or worse then using no prayer at all! Your objective 'i killed monsters 4 times as fast as the level 120 near me' is slightly less then worthless.

Why? 325 XP on crimsons works quite nicely - you factored from 52 summoning and zero slayer to get 343; I'm saying it should be the opposite. For what its worth, I changed the 325.6 to343 as a test - it made my XP per hour from crimsons at greater demons (one of the best droppers, mind you), go up around 700 xp per hour. I think 325.6 is a nice number, thank you very much. Blues are quite good where they are.

When have I said 343? If you got all your charms from doing say 0-99 Slayer (Zarfot did 13.8m experience which is over 0-99, however that got him to 99 Summoning) or even from higher at 73/80-99, you would end up with Summoning in the 90s. If Zarfot did 13.8m Slayer xp and 13m Summoning, that means his average ratio was 1:0.94. Even dropping it to 1:0.9, to get to 96 Summoning from 52 requires you get 10.5m Slayer experience. 80-99 Slayer will get that much and a little more. So what does that mean? With 96 Summoning requiring 26k crimsons, it average to just over 356 per crimson. All that working out just showed that you don't have to start at 0 Slayer to get to 96 Summoning. You stated 96 summoning, which would make 'each crimson' worth 'roughly 343 XP'. And my point was that you would hit 99 slayer before 99 sumomning, presumably meaning that you would use another, more efficient training method for collecting charms - so you would never reach as high of a summoning level with slayer charms, and your XP per charm would be lower due to having to use fewer high level pouches. But if it makes you happy, I switched my 343 XP to 356 - resulting in a 500 XP\hour increase for Greater Demons, one of the most charm-heave tasks. Talk about your moot points. :roll:

Hopefully I can do some Gargoyle testing this evening - I've been having some connectivity issues, and I can't test with laggy internet :wall:

I should have time for at least 1 more task tonight, though.

Slayer Sucks

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Important Information