Slayer Sucks

[compfreak847]

Sorry this is a bit off topic but somewhere in this thread someone mentioned about how it's proven that if you're income is greater than 200k per hour it's best to go to rock lobs in order to train summoning. Did someone post the calculations, and where can I find it?

 

192k, actually. Me and Inushkant did the calcs; it's buried in a thread I'd rather not remember. Consider them forgotten in the sands of time, but Inushkant can verify - they are accurate.

 

 

 

DreamReaper wrote:

 

Unless you're counting hp experience as well, it takes a far stretch of the imagination to see someone getting 65k p/h at iron dragons. I don't agree with all but one task being over 65k p/h, but it's true that most of them are.

 

 

 

That was just Attack/Strength/Defence experience. I say melee instead as you can train Attack, Defence or Controlled (Abyssal Whip). As In my previous post, in the hide tag, that shows experience rates with piety and maxed stats. Iron Dragons give 17k Slayer xp per hour or up to 19k with Dragon Slayer gloves. Since that is single combat, no combat familiar is being used, resulting in 68-76k melee xp/h.

 

 

 

 

 

compfreak847 wrote:

 

^ They aren't impossible to understand, Zarfot's cannon figures come from cannonable tasks, I already explained that slayer XP should not be included in efficiency experiments, and I wasn't including HP XP in any of mine - the results would be the same if we both did or didn't use them, and I chose not to. Therefore neither can you for a fair comparison. But like I said, I believe my XP rates, you believe yours.

 

 

 

I agree you did say Slayer and Hitpoints should be taken out.... but you never said why. All you said was something about Slayer not being melee therefore shouldn't be included. It doesn't matter if it isn't melee, it is still experience you are gaining along with the Hitpoints. If you took Hitpoints out, Slayer would average faster overall experience completely, and could even lose slightly more money than Zombie Monkies and still be more efficient. You can't say the reults would be the same either way. In either case, you are gaining different amount of Slayer xp/h, it isn't a constant, so it can't be removed. Same with Hitpoints, you were getting 33.3k per hour and Slayer was about 21.7k per hour, not a constant, and hence can't be taken out.

 

 

 

You are wrong about a fair comparions also. The only reason it is unfair, is when you take out sections of the experience gained. Then it becomes an invalid test. Now it is my turn to laugh. So many times I have asked now, and not once have you responded. Where did you get your rates for Slayer from then? (Bolded, in Italics and Underlined, just so you can't miss it)

 

 

 

I also asked if you could show your calculations in a way others can understand. You didn't nor did you even at least respond. I can only surmise that you keep ignoring that because it may be wrong and if you have fancy numbers others might believe you.

 

 

 

 

 

One final thing I want to add to what I addressed in my previous post. About the "real test" you said needs to be done to prove the experience rate. Say for example, that I did manage to get times for 10 tasks of Dust Devils, and they added out to about 1710 Dust Devils in total. Also the total time spent killing them was 7 hours, equaling approximately 103k melee xp/h. If I did that, timed every task, calculated profit every task... would you even believe it? I believe you wouldn't and simply say I faked. I got to that conclusion due to your responses to every post on this thread and unwilling to accept anything other than your made up rates.

 

 

 

This argument boils down very simply. You believe the the AVERAGE melee XP from slayer is over 90k per hour, making slayer better; I do not, making slayer worse. That is the bottom line. I've already proven, with summoning factored in, and with AVANSIES, a decent moneymaker (If I had used GWD, as would have been available to a 'maxed' player, it would have been much higher). Range XP from a cannon is minimal; I also did not include the cost of that in my calculations, as I believe that cannon is rarely used and very inefficient. Using a cannon on cannonball tasks makes the 'profit' from them drop far into the negatives; as a cannon is roughly 1/2 as efficient as chinchompas, I think I can safely say that the impact would not be significant if cost were factored in. As I've explained before, we are arguing about the efficiency of slayer XP, so the actual XP from slayer is not factored in. My series of calculations, all very basic and easy to understand, proved that slayer is less efficient if you are receiving less then 90k melee experience per hour. It's as simple as that. You can try and skirt around it with comments about dust devils, but the simple fact is: if your getting less then 90k melee XP per hour training slayer, your waisting your time. And I believe me '45k' numbers - I have not done specific testing, due to the sheer impossibility of completing a task that enourmous accurately, I have taken my own observations and extrapolated them, coming out with a broad '45k melee XP per hour, for the average high level player training slayer'. At that rate, 99 slayer will 'cost' you 266.2 million GP in time lost; if we use your figure of an average of '65k', which you do not seem to be sticking by, we get a cost of 133.1 million in time lost.

 

Unless your getting more then 90k melee XP per hour with slayer, it is INEFFICIENT.

[BloodArgon]

90,000 xp/hr seems pretty nuts for slayer.

 

 

 

Time taken for banking, buying new gear for the next task, and just getting there, not knowing if you will need to re-stock, or take extra food/familiar, its all very time consuming.

[Inuashakent]

Sorry this is a bit off topic but somewhere in this thread someone mentioned about how it's proven that if you're income is greater than 200k per hour it's best to go to rock lobs in order to train summoning. Did someone post the calculations, and where can I find it?

 

You'd have to search ten's of pages in the General discussion, as me and Comp did the math ages ago. However, the 200k/hour is made up, it is actually 750k/hour or so. We just balanced out the combat/magic xp out. (Which is why the 200k/hour isn't a fact.)

 

 

 

Honestly, this discussion is already answered. If you want Slayer xp, go for it.SLAYER IS NOT BETTER THAN TRAINING! If anybody can't figure that out with this much discussion, they shouldn't be debating.

[compfreak847]

You'd have to search ten's of pages in the General discussion, as me and Comp did the math ages ago. However, the 200k/hour is made up, it is actually 750k/hour or so. We just balanced out the combat/magic xp out. (Which is why the 200k/hour isn't a fact.)

 

Actually, it's 435k or better without XP counted:

 

 

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

 

 

Unless he's 99 mage, though, the XP is important - 99 mage is a HUGE asset, I love it at Castle Wars but never could have trained it with alching; simply too monotonous and click-heavy, even though I didn't mind the time and cost.

 

 

 

As for the rest of it, yes - but apparently some of the RS population isn't so bright. Ah well, I like arguing... I've typed over 70 pages worth of replys, totaling dozens of thousands of words - I really enjoy it. And my whatpulse is through the roof, too bad I lost 4 months and 6 million keystrokes worth of data. -.-

 

Oh, and I have a bone to pick with you about the 99 summoning from 99 slayer 'fact' - do you realize that's 40 crimson an hour, from SLAYER? :o

[beethoven31]

Slayer is actually one of the hardest skills to level up on since you only get exp from doing the assignments. Not to mention, they only give exp equivalent to the hp of that monster. :(

[compfreak847]

Slayer is actually one of the hardest skills to level up on since you only get exp from doing the assignments. Not to mention, they only give exp equivalent to the hp of that monster. :(

 

[hide=]Thank you, thank you! I now see the light, I shall revise my thread upon receiving this profound insight into slayer![/hide]

 

 

 

Sorry, I had to do it. Welcome to Tip.it, and enjoy your stay! Please read my thread first, though - I believe I have covered your point :thumbsup:

[Inuashakent]

Henc said 96-99, which would be more like 30... very doable.

 

 

 

I think.

[ydrasil]

This argument boils down very simply. You believe the the AVERAGE melee XP from slayer is over 90k per hour, making slayer better; I do not, making slayer worse. That is the bottom line. I've already proven, with summoning factored in, and with AVANSIES, a decent moneymaker (If I had used GWD, as would have been available to a 'maxed' player, it would have been much higher).

 

I can't believe you still keep saying that. When have I ever said I believed the average melee xp/h while doing Slayer was 90k? You keep saying that I believe that, when I have never said that. I have said, I believe to be true, and I have given a multitude of evidence that places it around 70k per hour. However, I dropped it down to 65k, as that is more than possible. How can you say you've proven something when you haven't either.

 

 

 

You originally tried to prove with just melee xp/h, and got it to be 96k would be needed with Slayer. However, you had excluded Summoning. You then proceeded to say if you average 8 crimsons per hour, when in fact he rate is the equivalent of 48 per hour, that is 6x higher. Seince at your rate of 8, it dropped by 6k/h, therefore at 48, would it not drop 36k? That brings the rate down to 60k per hour. Now also factoring that the cannon provides you with ample Range experience of the course of training that it gets to 99. So it becomes 60k minus whatever you get from cannon.

 

 

 

 

 

Range XP from a cannon is minimal; I also did not include the cost of that in my calculations, as I believe that cannon is rarely used and very inefficient. Using a cannon on cannonball tasks makes the 'profit' from them drop far into the negatives; as a cannon is roughly 1/2 as efficient as chinchompas, I think I can safely say that the impact would not be significant if cost were factored in.

 

The experience isn't minimal. Yes it would be inefficient however, that would only be so if you did Slayer only with a cannon. The cannon doesn't steal alot of the experiences. Sure it may take some, but in that case you are killing alot more per hour with than without. 1000 cannonballs will on average get about 25k experience from what I have seen. That same amount spent on chinchompas will result in 284.2 of them, at about 35.5k experience whilst taking up about 9 minutes to use. Not entirely sure on the experience per chinchompa either.

 

 

 

Now ideally chinchompas do seem to get more experience for the same amount of money. However, using the cannon takes very little time. All you do is set it up and occasionally fill it every so often. In nearly all cases you never have to move far away from the cannon, and takes up no time in most cases to fill it up. So per task, the extra time taken will be maybe up to 2 minutes. There is also the matter of how many cannonballs you will use in that time, which depends on the task. In any case because no matter how many you use, the additional time taken by using the cannon always remains small at around 2 minutes out of the hour. Even still, it is hard to say, as the time taken to use cannon is almsot non-existant, you are still limited to the amount it can fire per hour. While it may be less efficient purely on Range experience when compared to chinchompas it is extremely efficient when used on Slayer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I've explained before, we are arguing about the efficiency of slayer XP, so the actual XP from slayer is not factored in. My series of calculations, all very basic and easy to understand, proved that slayer is less efficient if you are receiving less then 90k melee experience per hour. It's as simple as that.

 

You aren't arguing about the efficiency of Slayer experience. You have only been complaining at how it is less melee xp/h. If you are referring to the calculations where you someone got to 266.2mil, they were far from easy to read.

 

 

 

 

 

You can try and skirt around it with comments about dust devils, but the simple fact is: if your getting less then 90k melee XP per hour training slayer, your waisting your time.

 

 

 

I wasn't "skirting" around anything as much as you'd like to blame it on that. I was merely trying to show that since you believed the absolute max experience you could get per hour was 80k and that was if lucky. My plan was to show that if you could be wrong here (which you were), that is it not also possible that you are wrong about your magic average maximum of 45k melee xp/h during Slayer?

 

 

 

 

 

And I believe me '45k' numbers - I have not done specific testing, due to the sheer impossibility of completing a task that enourmous accurately, I have taken my own observations and extrapolated them, coming out with a broad '45k melee XP per hour, for the average high level player training slayer'. At that rate, 99 slayer will 'cost' you 266.2 million GP in time lost; if we use your figure of an average of '65k', which you do not seem to be sticking by, we get a cost of 133.1 million in time lost.

 

Unless your getting more then 90k melee XP per hour with slayer, it is INEFFICIENT.

 

Done no specific testing, yet you would contradict someone who has? Please elaborate, what were your observations, keep in mind according to you, you aren't allowed to extrapolate. When I extrapolated with Dust Devils you said it wasn't an accurate test. The average high level player, isn't going to be averaging 45k melee xp/h whilst doing Slayer. That would require you averaged 12.5k Slayer xp/h (since according to you cannon is bad, when it is far from it), and since the averaged high level Slayer will also bloack Iron/Steel Dragons and sometimes Skeletal Wyverns. The next slowest task (please note I am excluding Mithril Dragons due to their rarity and small numbers) would be Greater Demons. Maxed stats and piety will get you 21k per hour, drop back to superhuman strength and it is 19k. Drop the stats down more and if the player is really going bad, maybe 15k Slayer xp/h. That is 60k as a bare minimum.

 

 

 

You say I do not seem to be sticking to 65k per hour... how ignorant are you? I have based every single calculation I have done on 65k being the average. Not to mention that your supposed loss has yet to be proven as I am pretty sure no-one can understand it.

 

 

 

Henc said 96-99, which would be more like 30... very doable.

 

 

 

I think.

 

I said this above but i'll show it here.

 

 

 

96 Summoning is about 9,600,000 experience.

 

Take off 52 and you are at about 9,450,000.

 

Gaining 22.5k Slayer xp/h (easily possible).

 

That means if you started at 80 Slayer, you get 488.9 hours.

 

That means you average 19,329 Summoning xp/h.

 

From 52-96 that requires 26.9k of just crimsons (which is what compfreak847 bases his calculations on)

 

This results in 55 Crimsons per hour on average.

 

This also means for each crimson you average 351.4 experience.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, this discussion is already answered. If you want Slayer xp, go for it.SLAYER IS NOT BETTER THAN TRAINING! If anybody can't figure that out with this much discussion, they shouldn't be debating.

 

I'll put this simply. I have shown that overall, for all experience, that Slayer is more efficient. That experience ranges over Attack/Strength/Defence/Range/Hitpoints/Slayer/Summoning. Just because it isn't the one skill, doesn't make it less efficient.

[compfreak847]

55 crimsons per hour? That sounds rather high to me for slayer, I don't think I even get that at dust devils :?

 

 

 

 

I'll put this simply. I have shown that overall, for all experience, that Slayer is more efficient. That experience ranges over Attack/Strength/Defence/Range/Hitpoints/Slayer/Summoning. Just because it isn't the one skill, doesn't make it less efficient.

 

No, you haven't. I already SHOWED you that if you included range XP in ALL of my calculations, it would turn out worse for slayer due to a cannon's inefficiency. Hitpoints does not possibly count; I don't include them in mine. If I did, it would be more of an advantage for me then you.

 

 

 

We are arguing about which is most efficient for training combat; only summoning and melee XP can be counted.

[Solidus_77]

You'd have to search ten's of pages in the General discussion, as me and Comp did the math ages ago. However, the 200k/hour is made up, it is actually 750k/hour or so. We just balanced out the combat/magic xp out. (Which is why the 200k/hour isn't a fact.)

 

Actually, it's 435k or better without XP counted:

 

 

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

 

 

Unless he's 99 mage, though, the XP is important - 99 mage is a HUGE asset, I love it at Castle Wars but never could have trained it with alching; simply too monotonous and click-heavy, even though I didn't mind the time and cost.

 

 

 

As for the rest of it, yes - but apparently some of the RS population isn't so bright. Ah well, I like arguing... I've typed over 70 pages worth of replys, totaling dozens of thousands of words - I really enjoy it. And my whatpulse is through the roof, too bad I lost 4 months and 6 million keystrokes worth of data. -.-

 

Oh, and I have a bone to pick with you about the 99 summoning from 99 slayer 'fact' - do you realize that's 40 crimson an hour, from SLAYER? :o

 

 

 

That's very interesting. I never would have thought that bursting at rock lobs would have been so effective. 435.5k per hour is an income that quite a few can make (and probably more now that pking has made things profitable again).

 

 

 

Anyways sorry for asking an off-topic question but I really wanted to know.

[D Jay99]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

[Solidus_77]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

[D Jay99]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

 

You have to spend 1.8947 hours at waterfiends (as calculated by compfreak) to gather the same amount of crims you would have gathered at rock lobsters in 1 hour. That's 0.8947 hours more.

 

 

 

I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims.

[cat666]

287

 

 

 

Sorry but slayer does not suck.

 

 

 

I agree it isn't the best way to get XP in combat.

 

I agree it doesn't make you that much money and you are better off doing something else.

 

 

 

However that doesn't make it a bad skill. You learn different fighting methods. You get to train 3 skills at the same time and you will break even and profit given time. Yes the money isn't life changing but it's enough.

 

 

 

Plus slayer is about kudos. So what you maxed out melee you just AFK'd that at Zombie Monkeys/Bandits etc. Or you played a lot of Pest Control. Maxed melee with 99 slayer is respectable. It shows you are experienced and have the balls to stick with something.

 

 

 

Don't write a skill off just cos you don't have the patience to train it. Stick to your Zombie Monkeys and let us stick to slayer.

[compfreak847]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

 

I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims.

Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP.

[compfreak847]

287

 

 

 

Sorry but slayer does not suck.

 

 

 

I agree it isn't the best way to get XP in combat.

 

I agree it doesn't make you that much money and you are better off doing something else.

 

 

 

However that doesn't make it a bad skill. You learn different fighting methods. You get to train 3 skills at the same time and you will break even and profit given time. Yes the money isn't life changing but it's enough.

 

 

 

Plus slayer is about kudos. So what you maxed out melee you just AFK'd that at Zombie Monkeys/Bandits etc. Or you played a lot of Pest Control. Maxed melee with 99 slayer is respectable. It shows you are experienced and have the balls to stick with something.

 

 

 

Don't write a skill off just cos you don't have the patience to train it. Stick to your Zombie Monkeys and let us stick to slayer.

 

Yes, that does make it a bad sklil. You learn different fighting methods? What? I guess if you mean you learn how to slaughter different level 80 monsters... You get to train 3 skills at a time? So what, you train them far slower then if you trained them one at a time. Break even and profit given time? Yes, but you could make so much more if you did it another way - 99 slayer will waste 266.2 million GP.

 

 

 

About kudos? All it shows is that I'm stupid enough to waste 266 million training a skill with absolutely no use besides a very ugly cape at the end of it. Back to the shrimp analogy - if I cooked shrimps from 1-99 cooking and wasted hundreds of millions worth of GP and hundreds of hours worth of time, would that make my 99 worth any more then yours? Does it prove that 'i have the balls to stick with something'? Possibly, but that's besides the point when I'm stupid enough to do it. It would be even worse if I ran around saying that shrimps were the best way to 99 cooking because they proved you were experienced with cooking (true, you would have cooked more then almost anyone with a 99), or that you can stick to things (also true)? No, it only proves that you were dumb enough to do it without thinking about it beforehand. If you enjoy seeing the 'shrimp' message more then the 'shark' message, go right ahead and do it for fun - that's what this game is about. But that doesn't mean it's the best way.

[ydrasil]

55 crimsons per hour? That sounds rather high to me for slayer, I don't think I even get that at dust devils :?

 

55 crimsons isn't just for crimsons. That is with gold/green/blue factored in, which then averages at 55. However that was getting to 9.6mil Summoning experience, my earlier one was based on 8.8mil.

 

 

 

 

 

No, you haven't. I already SHOWED you that if you included range XP in ALL of my calculations, it would turn out worse for slayer due to a cannon's inefficiency. Hitpoints does not possibly count; I don't include them in mine. If I did, it would be more of an advantage for me then you.

 

 

 

We are arguing about which is most efficient for training combat; only summoning and melee XP can be counted.

 

Actually I have, and you showed what? Nat least 4 times now I have asked you too explain the calculations. Seeing as you refuse to do that, nor even mention them, it leads me to believe they are indeed wrong. In my last post I tried to show a cannon is far from being inefficient, which you seem to ignore again. You don't attempt to give any information about other than saying it is inefficient, and expecting people to believe you. As for Hitpoints, you'll find you are wrong there. Per hour at Zombie Monkies you gain 33.3k and while doing Slayer you get about 21.7k per hour. Take that out of my calculations and the overall experience per hour for Zombie Monkies is at 110k at -40kgp. With Slayer, that leaves it at 118k per hour at (what you say) +50k per hour. Now look at that, more expereince per hour and do not lose money.

 

 

 

We are only arguing about combat experience... that is what you said.... correct if i'm wrong (but i'm not), are Range and Hitpoints not also combat skills? You can't them out simply because you want to, it makes the calculations wrong.

 

 

 

Also, instead of even mentioning the calculation at the top of my post, you ignored it. Calculating Summoning in at 48 crimsons per hour compared to your 8 made it more efficient. However, seeing as that showed you were wrong, I guess it is only fair you ignore it. As that seems to be the only thing you really do from what i've seen.

 

 

 

 

 

Also about the Rock Lobsters, you don't get 180 crimsons per hour when bursting. You do get 180 crimsons per hour when barraging though. Each barrage costs 1,964 at mid price (waters bought from store though), and you use 540 per hour. Factor in the other charms gets you to the equivalanet of about 228 'crimsons'. It costs 1,060,560gp/h to do this. Therefore you need to make more than 757,543gp/h without the experience of Hitpoints and Magic factored in. That is also using the 9 Lobster spot.

 

 

 

With bursting, in the 6 Lobster area, you use 750 casts per hour for 150 crimsons per hour. Factoring in the other charms gets to the equivalent of 189 'crimsons' per hour. At 1,068 per burst you use up 801k/h. Meaning you need to make 809,521gp/h for it to be more efficient. However, if you bursted in the 9 Lobster area, it would work out cheaper, but you'd get less charms per hour. I'm not sure of the rate for bursting there. So from that, Barraging is more efficient than bursting :

[Solidus_77]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

 

I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims.

Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP.

 

 

 

But mage exp aside, waterfiends are best then, right?

[compfreak847]

55 crimsons per hour? That sounds rather high to me for slayer, I don't think I even get that at dust devils :?

 

55 crimsons isn't just for crimsons. That is with gold/green/blue factored in, which then averages at 55. However that was getting to 9.6mil Summoning experience, my earlier one was based on 8.8mil.

 

 

 

 

 

No, you haven't. I already SHOWED you that if you included range XP in ALL of my calculations, it would turn out worse for slayer due to a cannon's inefficiency. Hitpoints does not possibly count; I don't include them in mine. If I did, it would be more of an advantage for me then you.

 

 

 

We are arguing about which is most efficient for training combat; only summoning and melee XP can be counted.

 

Actually I have, and you showed what? Nat least 4 times now I have asked you too explain the calculations. Seeing as you refuse to do that, nor even mention them, it leads me to believe they are indeed wrong. In my last post I tried to show a cannon is far from being inefficient, which you seem to ignore again. You don't attempt to give any information about other than saying it is inefficient, and expecting people to believe you. As for Hitpoints, you'll find you are wrong there. Per hour at Zombie Monkies you gain 33.3k and while doing Slayer you get about 21.7k per hour. Take that out of my calculations and the overall experience per hour for Zombie Monkies is at 110k at -40kgp. With Slayer, that leaves it at 118k per hour at (what you say) +50k per hour. Now look at that, more expereince per hour and do not lose money.

 

 

 

We are only arguing about combat experience... that is what you said.... correct if i'm wrong (but i'm not), are Range and Hitpoints not also combat skills? You can't them out simply because you want to, it makes the calculations wrong.

 

 

 

Also, instead of even mentioning the calculation at the top of my post, you ignored it. Calculating Summoning in at 48 crimsons per hour compared to your 8 made it more efficient. However, seeing as that showed you were wrong, I guess it is only fair you ignore it. As that seems to be the only thing you really do from what i've seen.

 

 

 

 

 

Also about the Rock Lobsters, you don't get 180 crimsons per hour when bursting. You do get 180 crimsons per hour when barraging though. Each barrage costs 1,964 at mid price (waters bought from store though), and you use 540 per hour. Factor in the other charms gets you to the equivalanet of about 228 'crimsons'. It costs 1,060,560gp/h to do this. Therefore you need to make more than 757,543gp/h without the experience of Hitpoints and Magic factored in. That is also using the 9 Lobster spot.

 

 

 

With bursting, in the 6 Lobster area, you use 750 casts per hour for 150 crimsons per hour. Factoring in the other charms gets to the equivalent of 189 'crimsons' per hour. At 1,068 per burst you use up 801k/h. Meaning you need to make 809,521gp/h for it to be more efficient. However, if you bursted in the 9 Lobster area, it would work out cheaper, but you'd get less charms per hour. I'm not sure of the rate for bursting there. So from that, Barraging is more efficient than bursting :

 

I'm not arguing with you on numbers. My equations were quite simple; I explained them reasonable in the posts themselves; it is not my fault if you cannot understand them. If we use your numbers, your results are more accurate. If we use my numbers, mine are. You will never convince me you can get 68k melee XP on an iron dragon task, 105k XP on a dust devil task, and 55 crimson charms per hour training slayer. Therefore, I see no point in arguing with you. You have posted your response; according to your numbers, it is correct. I cannot argue with that. And because there is no way to conclusively prove your numbers wrong, I can't settle this argument for once and for all. I will leave it at 'I believe your numbers are wrong, making your argument invalid. There is, however, no way of proving this one way or another'.

[compfreak847]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

 

I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims.

Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP.

 

 

 

But mage exp aside, waterfiends are best then, right?

 

Yes, unless you can do GWD.

[ydrasil]

I'm not arguing with you on numbers. My equations were quite simple; I explained them reasonable in the posts themselves; it is not my fault if you cannot understand them. If we use your numbers, your results are more accurate. If we use my numbers, mine are. You will never convince me you can get 68k melee XP on an iron dragon task, 105k XP on a dust devil task, and 55 crimson charms per hour training slayer. Therefore, I see no point in arguing with you. You have posted your response; according to your numbers, it is correct. I cannot argue with that. And because there is no way to conclusively prove your numbers wrong, I can't settle this argument for once and for all. I will leave it at 'I believe your numbers are wrong, making your argument invalid. There is, however, no way of proving this one way or another'.

 

 

 

The equations I was talking about was when you somehow arrived at 266mil lose from Slayer. It isn't my fault either, you said yourself it was confusing, and I agree that is the case. Since I can never prove them apparently (even though that vid I posted did prove the Dust Devils one), how about you actually do them as a task. See what you get. As was shown in my vid that is what I averaged. I even had another task of them after that (my 100th task in a row : ), there was 198. I summoned a Unicorn at the start and I finished with 3:30 on it. However I also had an evil bob random when the timer was at 8:00, I got out of it at 6:30, meaning it took 49 minutes approximately to get 83,160 melee xp. That extrapolates to about 102k per hour.

 

 

 

The 55 crimsons per hour comes from simple math. Are you denying the calculations were wrong?

 

 

 

Seriously though, I have shown that other people can get those rates, that I myself average it with relative ease, explained the rates and shown mathematically it is more efficient overall. There is always a way to prove something, just those who choose to ignore it because they don't wish to be wrong. You keep saying you don't believe my rates, but why not? My stats are only just over 90 so it should be accurate for the 'average high level player'. You don't believe them because you think they are impossible to achieve? I've already proved otherwise.

 

 

 

Also it doesn't matter about the rate at Steel/Iron drags, as I explained earlier. Nearly all players block them, making the next slowest tasks Skeletal Wyverns and Greater Demons. Do a task of either (and if possible vid part of it), and see what you get. Skeletal Wyverns, while they may be slow experience, the rate at which they drop crimson charms is very high (over 100% of them, they drop in piles of 2).

[compfreak847]

I'm not arguing with you on numbers. My equations were quite simple; I explained them reasonable in the posts themselves; it is not my fault if you cannot understand them. If we use your numbers, your results are more accurate. If we use my numbers, mine are. You will never convince me you can get 68k melee XP on an iron dragon task, 105k XP on a dust devil task, and 55 crimson charms per hour training slayer. Therefore, I see no point in arguing with you. You have posted your response; according to your numbers, it is correct. I cannot argue with that. And because there is no way to conclusively prove your numbers wrong, I can't settle this argument for once and for all. I will leave it at 'I believe your numbers are wrong, making your argument invalid. There is, however, no way of proving this one way or another'.

 

 

 

The equations I was talking about was when you somehow arrived at 266mil lose from Slayer. It isn't my fault either, you said yourself it was confusing, and I agree that is the case. Since I can never prove them apparently (even though that vid I posted did prove the Dust Devils one), how about you actually do them as a task. See what you get. As was shown in my vid that is what I averaged. I even had another task of them after that (my 100th task in a row : ), there was 198. I summoned a Unicorn at the start and I finished with 3:30 on it. However I also had an evil bob random when the timer was at 8:00, I got out of it at 6:30, meaning it took 49 minutes approximately to get 83,160 melee xp. That extrapolates to about 102k per hour.

 

 

 

The 55 crimsons per hour comes from simple math. Are you denying the calculations were wrong?

 

 

 

Seriously though, I have shown that other people can get those rates, that I myself average it with relative ease, explained the rates and shown mathematically it is more efficient overall. There is always a way to prove something, just those who choose to ignore it because they don't wish to be wrong. You keep saying you don't believe my rates, but why not? My stats are only just over 90 so it should be accurate for the 'average high level player'. You don't believe them because you think they are impossible to achieve? I've already proved otherwise.

 

 

 

Also it doesn't matter about the rate at Steel/Iron drags, as I explained earlier. Nearly all players block them, making the next slowest tasks Skeletal Wyverns and Greater Demons. Do a task of either (and if possible vid part of it), and see what you get. Skeletal Wyverns, while they may be slow experience, the rate at which they drop crimson charms is very high (over 100% of them, they drop in piles of 2).

 

The only proof I've seen so far of your numbers is your killing of 18 dust devils in 4 minutes and however many seconds. Your numbers are far above what almost everyone else has posted, whereas mine, although I didn't post a video of me killing a certain slayer monster 18 times, are in line with the generally accepted 'averages', which I have tested and found to be quite accurate. The 55 crimson per hour for slayer simply reinforces my point; there is NO possible way you are getting that. I usually get around ~6 crimson per hour training slayer; mostly due to the many cruddy tasks I get (Baliskis, anyone?). I consider your '55 crimson an hour' statistic slightly hilarious and wildly impossible. My equations were somewhat confusing, not impossibly. I simply established that the slayer XP was roughly twice as difficult to obtain as melee XP; compared it to the current 'best' ways of training melee\earning money, and came up with a final number detailing how much time you were wasting training slayer. To convert this into simple terms, I used that spare time in earning money with avansies - which also gives significant XP, which is factored in using the difficulty of training range with chinchompas, the most efficient manner. Slightly difficult to follow, not impossible.

[Inuashakent]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

 

I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims.

Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP.

 

 

 

But mage exp aside, waterfiends are best then, right?

 

If there was no such thing as GWD.

[compfreak847]

 

180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS

 

95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k

 

 

 

= 180/95 = 1.8947

 

825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k

 

I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k.

 

825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off.

 

 

 

Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct.

 

I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims.

Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP.

 

 

 

But mage exp aside, waterfiends are best then, right?

 

If there was no such thing as GWD.

 

Not if your maxed magic but not-maxed melee stats - *cough*

[ydrasil]

The only proof I've seen so far of your numbers is your killing of 18 dust devils in 4 minutes and however many seconds. Your numbers are far above what almost everyone else has posted, whereas mine, although I didn't post a video of me killing a certain slayer monster 18 times, are in line with the generally accepted 'averages', which I have tested and found to be quite accurate.

 

That is still proof. Keep that rate is that much experience per hour. Don't tell me I did anything special to get that many kills either, all I did was make sure I was always attacking a Dust Devil. My numbers are not far above what everyone else has posted either. One person even said that it averages at 65k melee xp/h as I said. What generally accepted averages anyway? The fact that I and a few others have disagreed of your extremeley pathetic rate must mean it isn't generally accepted. Also, "certain slayer monsters"? Which monsters? How did you kill them? Did you use super/pure sets? Did you use prayer (superhuman strength)? You can't simply say I did a task and it is within an accepted average. No conclusion can be made from that.

 

 

 

 

 

The 55 crimson per hour for slayer simply reinforces my point; there is NO possible way you are getting that. I usually get around ~6 crimson per hour training slayer; mostly due to the many cruddy tasks I get (Baliskis, anyone?). I consider your '55 crimson an hour' statistic slightly hilarious and wildly impossible.

 

Getting 55 per hour reinforces your point? Pray tell how it did that? Keep in mind that number was from Inuashakent saying it gets you to 96 Summoning (which I agree with). However, I only use 8.8Mil experience instead and the rate 48 crimsons per hour. Keep in mind that isn't just crimsons, that is gold/green/blue factored in on top of the crimson you receive to being 48. I explained that in my post also. But hell, I seem to have found your problem. You're using Sumona. You'll average alot better experience and charms when using Duradel.

 

 

 

I attained the number of 55 by working out how long it would take to get from 80-99 Slayer (11mil experience) at the rate of 22.5k Slayer xp/h (higher can easily be averaged). From that same amount of time you also receive enough charms for 96 Summoning. That means 19,330 summoning experience per hour. Next I worked out the average experience per crimson from 52-96 Summoning was, it was approximately 350 each. 19,330/350 = 55 crimsons per hour.

 

 

 

 

 

My equations were somewhat confusing, not impossibly. I simply established that the slayer XP was roughly twice as difficult to obtain as melee XP; compared it to the current 'best' ways of training melee\earning money, and came up with a final number detailing how much time you were wasting training slayer. To convert this into simple terms, I used that spare time in earning money with avansies - which also gives significant XP, which is factored in using the difficulty of training range with chinchompas, the most efficient manner. Slightly difficult to follow, not impossible.

 

Maybe not impossibly, but since you can't or won't redo them in a clearer way so that others may understand them, it doesn't really show anything. There were certain sections where I understood what you were doing, but most of it was far from being comprehensible.