Slayer Sucks

compfreak847 · October 29, 2008

Hence why I'm using 1/6th miss rate; most cannonable monsters are very low defence. The ragne XP is somewhat important; it improves the efficiency of a cannon by ~25%. And I proved that it wasn't worth using.. except bloodvields, where the rates made basically no difference.

Funny then how every single test I showed with the cannon I didn't include the Range experience. Add in the Range experience and it becomes more efficient, that is what you have said. Good thing my calcs include range XP, aint it?

Aberrant Spectres was proven to be 393,014 gp per hour needing to be made for a cannon to be more efficient (so obviosuly that one is below 400k also). Take off the money saved no supplies brings it down to 364,251gp per hour. Say you value Range experience at 4gp each (just over 3.67). Then you also gain 105,888 worth of experience (at 4gp per experience and average 24 experience per cannonball which is 12 damage). That brings it down to 258,363 per hour that need to be made. Worth it? I think so. Unless the 1/2 hour we're calculating with cannon saves us 30k in supplies, I doubt it. Your equations are also quite inconsistent; notice that some of the equations include range XP (such as most of mine, at least the 'final result' ones) while others don't; I think we need to get our numbers straight first anyway, as you continue to insist on using incorrect values.

Skeletal Wyverns was proven to be 431,331. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it about 412k. Say you still average 12 damage a cannonball and value experience at 4gp each. That brings it down to 363k that needs to be made per hour. So yes that one is worth it also. Nope, as your numbers still don't include anything, such as us valueing range XP at 3k from Avansies, nor qeltar's boosted rates from melee, or the actual benefit from the supply reduction.

Level 90 Dagannoths in Waterbirth Dungeon was proven to be 405,972. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it 382,379. Add on the experience value brings is down to 306,923. Also worth using a cannon on.See abive

Bloodvelds was proven to be 168,875 (not your 350k or so, as I mentioned you compared it to the wrong one). Take off money saved on supplies brings it down to 136,945. Add on experience value brings it down to 80,341. Definately worth using I believe.... I proved that 168,875 wrong, why are you ignoring that and continuing to use that value? Also, see above.

So umm, on what task wasn't the cannon worth it again?

Mistake? Probably, now that I look at it. But it WAS there, and mislead me at first. Now I understand your use of Qeltar's numbers; hence why I use them in my tasks now. The range XP is accounted for in my equations

You changed my quote and made it say "referring to kalphites". I wasn't referring to Kalphites at all, so it was definately your mistake and not mine. I did talk about them, but that was about 4 posts back or so. 'Scuse me? Must I include the entire quote? Notice how I didn't change any of it, please.
How about I show you another task then, Kalphites:

162 kills/hour melee only.

320 kills/hour melee with a cannon.

You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each).

You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes.

It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes.

You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money.

147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour.

Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task.

Honestly, let this drop. Arguing over stupid things like this will get nowhere.

See above, but what about the pot rate? Aren't you supposed to be meleeing Specters while cannoning?

Of course you will be meleeing. I have been the one saying all this time you attack alongside the cannon, why would I suddenly change that? Pot rate that Qeltar seems to use is also once every 10 minutes.So why are the pots suddenly dropping so much? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm assuming I'm missing something. I'm in a good mood, no person attacks \

Oddly enough, the rest of his numbers appear to be much more in line, and the difference of 60% over your and my rates is rather unusual.

What 60%? What numbers were supposedly wrong and right?Our 11.9\12.3\12.5 vs. his 20.9 average damage per cannonball.

Avansies is our standard moneymaker; changing it makes a difference in the rest of our calcs. No need to, we can simply use Chins, assuming a money rate in the 600ks that would make it worth it.

But the money rate isn't in the 600ks it is 400k, so Chinchompas aren't worth it. Changing one 400k per hour method to any other method of obtaining 400k per hour makes how much difference again? All that changes is the experience, but then again some methods of getting money get you no-little experience at all. You were suggesting we change money makers, but since you agree to keep Avansies, we can use them, where the range value is closer to 3 gp per hour (but again, impossible to calculate due to aforementioned problems)

The only task it makes a difference on would be Bloodvields, where 9k really won't change anything significantly. 2,400 damage is from the extra hits by cannon.

You read my post, and still think you compared Bloodvelds correctly... maybe there isn't any hope for you after all. You can't compare Dharoks with no cannon to Whip with a cannon, if you are trying to find out if a cannon is worth using. As shown above, you only need to make about 80k or so per hour for a cannon to be worth using at Bloodvelds. After factoring in experience and money saved on supplies, Bloodvelds are 80% more efficient with a cannon than without. Still no idea where the 2,400 comes from. Extra damage from the cannon, what extra damage? 514 cannonballs = approximately 6,168 damage for 12,336 Range experience.Honestly, we need some better numbers on bloodvields; unless DH truely is 30% better XP then rune defender\whip, in which case we should be using that instead, PLUS our +10% strength pray for 5% more XP. 12 extra wyvern kills @ 200 HP each = 2,400 damage.

Actually, we do.. You tested, on blodvields, I calculated\tested. The 2.67x melee XP is quite simple... 2x range XP per damage from cannon, melee = 4x damage +1.3x HP - a total of 5.33, divided by 2 for 2.67x the XP for the same damage dealt from melee vs. cannon.

Well that was based on no results what so ever. Do you know what a ratio is? You have assumed that cannon will do half the damage and melee the other half, and you know this how? Oh right, from Qeltars numbers.... which give absolutely no indication of the ratio. He never recorded the melee and Range experience gain, without which a ratio cannot be determined. Yes, I know what a ratio is; a number that describes the realtionship between two other numbers, at least in our usage. And how is that based on no results whatsoever? That's simple math.. We're taking the extra kills the cannon gets us, and I'm merely using it to point out that XP from the cannon doesn't count nearly as much as XP from melee, including the fact that a cannon slows down melee slightly.

What? +10% strength and slayer helm do nothing to cannon.. #-o

You would be meleeing also while using a cannon, would you not? Will that not mean it will have the exact same affect on your melee experience? Of course not... because that is like too obvious! It mustn't be right if it is that easy! Mh himm. Except that they wouldn't be doing anything to the kills your cannon was getting; so using a cannon on or off slayer tasks shouldn't make a difference.

Try 460k.

Pray tell, where did this number come from this time? I proved it was 169k, furthur calculated to be 80k. You compared it to Dharoks (which was wrong), and got it to be 354k. So umm, where did this number come from now? Actually, it was calculated for kalphites, which you seem to have switched with bloodvields, which should be significantly more then 354k, as pointed out above.

Range XP was calculated in, money saved on supplys is around 8k, we have no numbers for whip + black mask + 10% strength, and his DH numbers are oddly much higher then his meele, unlike his other examples, leading us to believe that one or more of his tests was off for one reason or another. His DH XP is generally close to my adjusted slayer numbers, so for the sake of brevity I'm using them instead of waiting to get bloodvields as a task and doing them myself, making the breakeven rate a nice 360k.

When did I calculate Range experience in with the results 2 posts of mine back? I hadn't put them in. So no, Range experience hadn't even been put in yet. Money saved depends on what you wold have used in the first place. For the results I showed earlier in this post, it was about 20-25k for a few. He wasn't using a Black Mask or +10% strength in either the test with a cannon or without, so that is fine. Dharoks numbers are higher because you kill them faster with Dharoks, kind of obvious I thought, but then, that is when thinking logically. Dharoks is more accurate and hits alot higher than the Whip in this case, but yes it is slowet to attack with. Clearly the accuracy and damage increase more than makes up for that though. Good thing you didn't, they would only have skewed your results even more. Guess we have to go with DH then, that and +10% strength seem to be teaching our whip + defender combo a few lessons.

Sorry, didn't read page 79, and you apparently didn't read my post about summoning vs. slayer levels.

I checked myself, it is actually page 80. I read what you said about it, you said that from Qeltar's numbers you got the ratio to be 0.89:1. Good, also read what I said about high slayer\low summoning throwing off the results if you don't continue to train slayer after 99.

What? I was unaware that they give more slayer XP then their HP, but... why are we arguing over this, we already have the averages.

Many Slayer monsters give more Slayer experience or something even less than their Hitpoints. So you apparently already have the averages... but with the wrong numbers, hence making the averages not so accurate? 'Suse me again, if you truel wish I can change it. Suquahs are 106 slayer XP, not 108, hence their slayer XP per hour will go up 105. This will make our average slayer XP go up 4.5 XP per hour, a difference of 4,050 XP from 1-99 slayer. Good thing you caught that, it was really skewing my results ;) (sarcasm)

Nope, some sort of machine doesn't count as an insult - he may be able to attain those rates; more power too him. I'm not quite sure how he manages, though, so far I haven't seen anyone else that gets them. @ chatting with friends: Yes, it is. When using AIM\ICQ\gmail\yahoo mail\posting on forums at the same time as Rune, I generally tend to finish whatever sentence I'm writing before clicking on the next monster to attack; in the greator demons case, I frequently 3 hit monsters - barely leaving me time to switch windows, start typing, notice the monster died, switch windows again, click on the next monster, and work picking up drops into the hits. I do a pretty good job juggling them, but it slows me down quite a bit, especially when I'm not devoting 100% attention. Unofficial tests though, no way of proving anything and varies from person to person. Just pointing out that Zombies don't have that flaw.

Still ignoring that I see. I have mentioned several times that while not getting his rates I do get close. In the case of Aberrant Spectres I even got more experience than what his guide said. So yes, those rates are easily obtainable. Last I checked, Zombies aren't real, so they still have a flaw. Zombies aren't real... what? Oh, and I guess that we should have 4different sections. 'Zarfot and Ydasil's XP" and "Everyone else's 100% attention XP", at roughly 50% lower, then "Everyone else's XP when doing normal slaying" at 30% lower still. I guess I should have made 3 threads... (Sarcasm again, ignore it at will : ))

Actually, you aren't going to make anywhere near that much. 160k profit with piety and a cannon? No. Oh, and your continued arguments about a cannon doesn't really matter... We have proved that for everything but Bloodvields, where a cannon barely makes a difference, it's useless at our earning rates.

Actually it is 150k. He said it took him 530 hours. What I find hilarious is that you with only 76 Slayer (not trying to insult) is trying to specifically say what can be made from drops during Slayer. I'm sure someone who has access top all the drops, and got 80m from Slayer over the course of 13.8mil experience will be a much more accurate average than what you believe is or isn't possible... but you know... i'm just thinking logically again. Look above, every single task is worth using a cannon on at only a 400k earning rate.Sticking to incorrect numbers and refusing to change or ague about them, instead simply stating and restating them, really doesn't warrant a 'look at my numbers! I proved it!' post. I will be ignoring any further posts after this that say 'see above', as well as my own :P

Himm, interesting how we took 1-2k XP an hour off our 60k or so XP per hour rates at mages for banking - doesn't that mean that it takes 1-2 minutes to bank? Not really sure what your talking about with wyverns - I don't really know how long those would take to bank on; I'd guess in the 4-5 minute range.

Do you even know why I mentioned 1-2k? It had nothing to do with swapping tasks or going to Spiritual Mages. That was where I was referring to piety at Skeletal Wyverns. You guess 4-5 minutes range. How many Skeletal Wyverns would you think you could kill in that time using piety? At least 5? Up to 10? 5-10 kills in 5 minutes is 1-2k. Since you lose that much time banking, you lose out on that much experience. So that is what I was talking about with Wyverns.Odd,

He got 99 slayer's XP worth of charms, hence his numbers don't include high slayer\low summoning, assuming you stop at 99.

99 Slayer isn't high? 1 Summoning isn't low? What game have you been playing? If you stopped at 99 Slayer, having started at 80, you would get 96 Summoning from level. Is that so difficult to understand? It helps if you understand what I'm saying; you seem to have a nasty habbit of switching from 1-99 slayer getting 96 summon to 80-99 slayer getting 96, back and forth, and so on and so on.

I wasn't talking about those numbers; obviously those are correct. I'm referring to your 'calculated' numbers, which were incorrect.

Which calculated numbers are supposedly incorrect? They can't all be wrong, since I calculated the 110k loss at Monkies and you agreed that is correct. My numbers for the cannon were correct. So please actually explain where. Again, I'm saying that your calculated numbers from bloodvields

I must have missed the spot where you said 13% higher hits is equal to the tiny equipment difference - that was settled several posts ago with a salve ammy (e) and my higher stats nicely balancing out against your equipment; which was never 26 higher strength bonus in the first place.

I don't think I said 26 difference in strength bonus. I said around 20 or so. See for yourself:

A difference of 20 strength bonus. The extra +5% for Salve and +13% from piety is an extra 16 levels. If as you say they are about a 50:50 split in determining how high you hit, I have a better chance of hitting higher in what I use. Last time I used the 'ole calculater, 5 + 13 was 18. Anyway, those are percentages, not numbers, so boosting our 105 strength bonus from Zombies would make them, combined, +5.25 from Salve and +15 from Piety, for an overall of slightly higher then yours. Also consider that I am potting twice as often as you, with an average of 5 strength level bonus, or roughly 6 equipment bonus, assuming a 50:50 split. Oh, and since my attack is slightly higher then yours, my rate will be closer to even with yours. And the frequency of attack is not to be discredited.[/color]

See above, and it is quite significant. You can't tell me you can pick up crimson charms + drops, run to the next monster, eat, and pot, all without missing a single whip stroke - yet I can make that claim for Zombie monkies.

I can pick up crimsons + drops and lose no time. I can attack the enxt monster without losing time. Potting as you hit results in no time lost. Eating as you hit results in little time lost, but I used a Unicorn to heal, so no time lost. I might rarely miss a Whip hit, but nothing to what you would call "significant".Why did we suddenly switch from BOB to unicorn? Won't that limit our inventory space for drops, since before we were relying on it to with all our pots? Oh, and you encounter a delay nearly every monster with picking up drops and running to the next.

Slightly off topic: Just totaled up page 15 of this thread, even including the short posts, it's 105 pages, 41,715 words. One page. Craziness, soon I'll have the longest thread in Rants, and by far the most text :)

Also note: I have 107 posts on this thread, probably totaling around 400 pages, similar to some of the longer novels :wall:

Inuashakent · October 29, 2008

Sorry, there is a point where tl;dr becomes normal. Why are you using salve? Or is that for non slayer? And never use Zammy book for melee. Why would you use a Unicorn? Or am I missing something...? Because normally, a combat familiar/Bunyip is used. And you can pick up charms without losing a turn, but you have to be extremely close to the loot. Most of the time, you lose some time picking up loot.

compfreak847 · October 29, 2008

Sorry, there is a point where tl;dr becomes normal. Why are you using salve? Or is that for non slayer? And never use Zammy book for melee. Why would you use a Unicorn? Or am I missing something...? Because normally, a combat familiar/Bunyip is used. And you can pick up charms without losing a turn, but you have to be extremely close to the loot. Most of the time, you lose some time picking up loot.

I tried dust devils yesterday, after getting them as a task, with a geyser titan. With pots and (not enough) room for drops, I only had enough froom for 7 monkfish.. and those things hit quite a bit on my dharoks. I think they would do a number on bandos... A healing familiar is a necessity, but when I went with unicorn and ancients (no alch), I didn't have enough room for the alchable drops like red d hide vambs.

Inuashakent · October 29, 2008

Sorry, there is a point where tl;dr becomes normal. Why are you using salve? Or is that for non slayer? And never use Zammy book for melee. Why would you use a Unicorn? Or am I missing something...? Because normally, a combat familiar/Bunyip is used. And you can pick up charms without losing a turn, but you have to be extremely close to the loot. Most of the time, you lose some time picking up loot.

I tried dust devils yesterday, after getting them as a task, with a geyser titan. With pots and (not enough) room for drops, I only had enough froom for 7 monkfish.. and those things hit quite a bit on my dharoks. I think they would do a number on bandos... A healing familiar is a necessity, but when I went with unicorn and ancients (no alch), I didn't have enough room for the alchable drops like red d hide vambs.

I can manage through a whole task with only pineapple pizzas. This was before I got an SGS. Now, it's a simple task.

ydrasil · October 29, 2008

Unless the 1/2 hour we're calculating with cannon saves us 30k in supplies, I doubt it. Your equations are also quite inconsistent; notice that some of the equations include range XP (such as most of mine, at least the 'final result' ones) while others don't; I think we need to get our numbers straight first anyway, as you continue to insist on using incorrect values.

Did you want me to walk you through every step just so you are capable of understanding, or should I assume you have some kind of intelligence at least? I'll go through every step, you let me know when it becomes too difficult for you ok?

182 kills per hour without a cannon.

390 kills per hour with a cannon.

(390-182)/390 = 0.53333

(If I just did 182/390 that shows the percent of how long the task will take with a cannon. Done this way is the time saved, understand?)

According to Qeltar, you would normally use:

3 Zamorak Brews (2), which is 1.5 (4)

3 Super Strength (2), which is 1.5 (4)

6 Prayer Potion (4), his numbers said 3 (2), which is wrong. Prayer drains at the same rate. Not too hard so far right?

0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Zamorak Brews

0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Super Strengths

0.533*6 = 3.2 Prayer Potions

0.8*801 = 640.8

0.8*4,072 = 3,257.6

3.2*7,770 = 24,864

640.8 + 3,257.6 + 24,864 = 28,762.4 saved on supplies.

Was that so difficult to understand?

Was that so incredibly impossible as you stated?

Nope, as your numbers still don't include anything, such as us valueing range XP at 3k from Avansies, nor qeltar's boosted rates from melee, or the actual benefit from the supply reduction.

What? They don't include anything? I valued Range experience at 4gp each, I stated that did I not? I then used your average of 12 damage per cannonball. "Qeltar's boost rates from melee" are what you did. I'll be honest, from the amount of mistakes you have done, and purposely changing the results to suit you, I don't trust that what you have done is correct. "Zombie Monkies are only a 40k loss per hour" Woops sorry I meant for it to be 2.75x higher than that, what a silly error. I'd rather not have to walk you through the above calculations as I showed above for this one and next ones. I am hoping you are capable of testing them yourself. It really isn't that difficult.

... I proved that 168,875 wrong, why are you ignoring that and continuing to use that value? Also, see above.

You did what now? I recall you swapping it to Dharoks for no logical reason, I don't recall any proof however. I specifically stated that to compare if a cannon is worth using or not, they have to be tested the same way, the only difference being whether a cannon was used or not. So no, I didn't ignore that number, but you clearly ignored what I said. I know that for a fact to, as if you didn't ignore it, you would see it can't be compared to Dharoks. It could be compared to Dharoks if the test with a cannon had also been using Dharoks.

'Scuse me? Must I include the entire quote? Notice how I didn't change any of it, please.

Oh I get it now, you mixed up the numbers. That was why it made no sense. You were talking about Kalphites where I said you use 1,530 per hour, but then you said 2.7k per hour. Your numbers were all over the place, how could anyone of been expected to understand what you were trying to show. I'll show you what you said.

'scuse me? First the 1.5k cannonballs was for the half hour, given the 2.7k you claim are used per hour, now they have suddenly jumped to per hour, making 775 cannonballs? Now, for your 30 minute specters test, we have 3 numbers: 1.5k, the first number you used for # of c balls. 1.1k, the new number you used for # of c balls. And last and least, 775 cannonballs you used for calculating the cost of cannon. What?

You say that I said 1.5k was for a half hour. I never said that, I said 1.5k was for the hour, you misinterpretted. I've never mentioned a number close 2.7k. The closest number is 2,364, and that was from Aberrant Spectres. The 774 was what you used to complete the same amount of kalphites as without a cannon taking half the time. Now you say for Aberrant Spectres that I said 1.5k. Umm.... no, that 1.5k was for Kalhpites. I always used the 1.1k as the amount used in same time as without a cannon. So please excuse me for not understanding what you were trying to say because of your inability to understand what I said in the first place.

[So why are the pots suddenly dropping so much? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm assuming I'm missing something. I'm in a good mood, no person attacks \

Since when were the pots dropping so much? Task is completed quicker, so of course you don't need to use the same amount, you use less. Look above at the example with Aberrant Spectres.

You were suggesting we change money makers, but since you agree to keep Avansies, we can use them, where the range value is closer to 3 gp per hour (but again, impossible to calculate due to aforementioned problems)

I did neither. I never "agreed" to use Aviansies as the money maker. I used the 400k though as what they make per hour regardless of how it is acquired. That was my point, there is so many ways to make 400k per hour, it is foolish to think everyone or even the average way is Aviansies.

Honestly, we need some better numbers on bloodvields; unless DH truely is 30% better XP then rune defender\whip, in which case we should be using that instead, PLUS our +10% strength pray for 5% more XP. 12 extra wyvern kills @ 200 HP each = 2,400 damage.

I don't see how we need "better" numbers, they are fine as they are. Dharoks is better experience on Bloodvelds, Qeltar's tests show that. Keep in mind he melee'd with a Neitiznot helm So he wasn't actually doing Slayer at the time.

Even if the cannon only did get an extra 2,400 damage resulting in 19.2k worth of Range experience, it still makes Wyverns worth it. It was at 412k being needed with the money saved on supplies 392k or so now needs to be made per hour, making a cannon worth it.

Yes, I know what a ratio is; a number that describes the realtionship between two other numbers, at least in our usage. And how is that based on no results whatsoever? That's simple math.. We're taking the extra kills the cannon gets us, and I'm merely using it to point out that XP from the cannon doesn't count nearly as much as XP from melee, including the fact that a cannon slows down melee slightly.

Simple math then is it? Lets look at this simple math:

Aberrant Spectres with a cannon gets you an extra 208 kills per hour.

208/390*100 =53.3%

So 53.3% of the possible experience goes to the cannon.

In short you get the exact same amount of melee and Hitpoints experience per hour, but you get bonus Range and Slayer experience.

65,520 melee experience.

21,840 Hitpoints experience.

37,440 Range experience.

That means the overall result is:

1.86x damage done is to melee.

0.62x damage done is to Hitpoints.

1.07x damage done is to Range.

For everyone 1 experience of melee, you get 0.575 experience of Range.

Mh himm. Except that they wouldn't be doing anything to the kills your cannon was getting; so using a cannon on or off slayer tasks shouldn't make a difference.

The point is, say without a Slayer Helm and prayer you get 10k Slayer experience per hour, and with you get 20k. You are always going to get the same amount of Range experience anyway.

So you are saying whether on Slayer on Slayer or not, the bonuses of prayer and Slayer helm have no effect. Ok.... was I not just doing that off a Slayer task?

Actually, it was calculated for kalphites, which you seem to have switched with bloodvields, which should be significantly more then 354k, as pointed out above.

Err... what? Calculated for Kalphites you say, hmm. Then pray tell why you said it was 460k for Bloodvelds? I have already proven it was 169k for Bloodvelds, a far cry from 460k. Even more so once you calculate Range experience in. When did I supposedly switch a number with Kalphies. I never worked out a number to being 460k being needed I believe. Considering I proved Kalphites was 298k without Range being added in to it, where did I get the 460k from Kalhpites from then?

Good thing you didn't, they would only have skewed your results even more. Guess we have to go with DH then, that and +10% strength seem to be teaching our whip + defender combo a few lessons.

Good thing I didn't what? If you are referring to Range experience, you have been the one going on and on about me not having put it in. But apparently, according to what you say, If I do it will skew the results. I already explained why you can't use numbers for Dharoks as a comparison to the cannon at Bloodvelds, a fact which you seem unable or unwilling to grasp.

Good, also read what I said about high slayer\low summoning throwing off the results if you don't continue to train slayer after 99.

How about you repost what you said, i'd rather not look through 105 pages of text to find one little bit of information. What has training Slayer beyond 99 have to do with altering the average experience per charm?

'Suse me again, if you truel wish I can change it. Suquahs are 106 slayer XP, not 108, hence their slayer XP per hour will go up 105. This will make our average slayer XP go up 4.5 XP per hour, a difference of 4,050 XP from 1-99 slayer. Good thing you caught that, it was really skewing my results ;) (sarcasm)

Oh right... For someone who didn't even know that they gave a higher amount of Slayer experience, of course you must be right with how much they give. How silly of me to think otherwise....

They give about 107.5 on average actually, but I rounded it off to 108. It was also 134 kills per hour. An extra 335 Slayer experience per hour with melee only. Using a cannon here however gets you up to 50k Slayer experience per hour though.

Zombies aren't real... what? Oh, and I guess that we should have 4different sections. 'Zarfot and Ydasil's XP" and "Everyone else's 100% attention XP", at roughly 50% lower, then "Everyone else's XP when doing normal slaying" at 30% lower still. I guess I should have made 3 threads... (Sarcasm again, ignore it at will : ))

You'll find I am not the only one who gets those rates. Also note that is only 3 different things you stated (bad at maths I see). You really are a fool aren't you? "But zarfot is a machine or a zombie or whatever, other people aren't so it is impossible" Seriously I think you just can't cope that you are using worse methods or whatever else and that other people can get alot higher experience than you. The only reason for you that "Slayer Sucks" is because you suck at Slaying. Your responses are mostly illogical and are more often than not, made up.

Sticking to incorrect numbers and refusing to change or ague about them, instead simply stating and restating them, really doesn't warrant a 'look at my numbers! I proved it!' post. I will be ignoring any further posts after this that say 'see above', as well as my own :P

And this is coming from you? I am willing to debate over the numbre provided you debate over them rather than trying to make up numbers to try and discredit what I have posted. I have gone through step by step to show how the calculations work, I asked you to see if there were mistakes. You never pointed out the mistakes so I can only assume there weren't any.

It helps if you understand what I'm saying; you seem to have a nasty habbit of switching from 1-99 slayer getting 96 summon to 80-99 slayer getting 96, back and forth, and so on and so on.

You seem to be getting less and less intelligent with each post. I've not once switched between those two different rates. I have stuck with 80-99 getting you 96 Summoning. You have been saying it has to be 1-99 or whatever else. So no, I do not have a "nasty habit" of switching between numbers. 13.8mil Slayer to 13mil Summoning experience is equivalent of 80-99 Slayer getting 1-96 Summoning. How is that hard to understand. The time I mentioned 1-99 is when I said that would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher.

Again, I'm saying that your calculated numbers from bloodvields

Please finish what you are saying before posting. That is the second time you have done this during this post.

Why did we suddenly switch from BOB to unicorn? Won't that limit our inventory space for drops, since before we were relying on it to with all our pots? Oh, and you encounter a delay nearly every monster with picking up drops and running to the next.

We went through this pages ago. I said I never used a BOB, so therefore there was no switch. I said that if you want, others are able to using one if they want. I said that I presonally do not. You have more than enough room in your inventory even with a BOB, amazingly I mentioned this pages ago also. The delay you say I encounter is non-exsistant. I don't kill a monster, wait for the drop to show, pick it up, and then run to the next. That is a waste of time. While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies. So I am always in combat. So no, there is no time lost fot that.

Teeg · October 29, 2008

Without getting into the minutiae of the argument/discussion, I find my figures a lot closer to Ydrasil's than Compfreak's.

I've done a bit of Slayer, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and I tend to use a cannon anytime I can.

regards

Teeg

ilovecardj · October 29, 2008

I average 70-75k melee exp an hour on slayer and can exceed 80k on quite a few tasks (velds, dusties etc)

Dunno what your talking about 50k tops? lol

oh well to each there own

ToxicDuck · October 29, 2008

I average 70-75k melee exp an hour on slayer and can exceed 80k on quite a few tasks (velds, dusties etc)

Dunno what your talking about 50k tops? lol

oh well to each there own

Exactly, I can't believe the amount of people that say slayer is bad experience. It's not, unless you can only stand grinding your way through bandit after bandit (or whatever choice of dull enemy) gaining 80k+ an hour.

Zammy brew + super strength + slayer helm is always more fun than grinding or powering your way to a level.

Not to mention the charms you miss out on..

And also in response to the original post, saying that slayer is dangerous is a frankly lame excuse. Dangerous? Of course it's dangerous, you're fighting monsters often higher than you. But there are always ways around that. But since some people can't bear the thought they might have to use a bank on occasion, slayer sucks, right? :roll:

And slayer is bad for training range? Maybe it's not great, no, but if you want to blow 30m on chins so you can claim you're a range master (because you have a spare 30m), fine, but what does that have to do with slayer? How is it slayer's fault you can't blitz your way through range levels with some explosive red squirrels?

I still love slayer and always will, and I'll continue recommending it over any other form of combat training.

Inuashakent · October 29, 2008

I average 70-75k melee exp an hour on slayer and can exceed 80k on quite a few tasks (velds, dusties etc)

Dunno what your talking about 50k tops? lol

oh well to each there own

Exactly, I can't believe the amount of people that say slayer is bad experience. It's not, unless you can only stand grinding your way through bandit after bandit (or whatever choice of dull enemy) gaining 80k+ an hour.

Zammy brew + super strength + slayer helm is always more fun than grinding or powering your way to a level.

Not to mention the charms you miss out on..

And also in response to the original post, saying that slayer is dangerous is a frankly lame excuse. Dangerous? Of course it's dangerous, you're fighting monsters often higher than you. But there are always ways around that. But since some people can't bear the thought they might have to use a bank on occasion, slayer sucks, right? :roll:

And slayer is bad for training range? Maybe it's not great, no, but if you want to blow 30m on chins so you can claim you're a range master (because you have a spare 30m), fine, but what does that have to do with slayer? How is it slayer's fault you can't blitz your way through range levels with some explosive red squirrels?

I still love slayer and always will, and I'll continue recommending it over any other form of combat training.

You are definetely being completely biased for Slayer. You're using horrible examples for non-slayer.

You can get 100k+ cash + 100k+ xp/hour, much more than Slayer, and it comes with good charms. (armoured zombies)

Ditch the chins, and make that Aviansies. You can make 400k+ cash/hour, along with very good xp.

You don't miss out on Charms, as you can make up charms with the time saved. There is no doubt you gain faster xp, charms, and money from non-slayer.

compfreak847 · October 29, 2008

Unless the 1/2 hour we're calculating with cannon saves us 30k in supplies, I doubt it. Your equations are also quite inconsistent; notice that some of the equations include range XP (such as most of mine, at least the 'final result' ones) while others don't; I think we need to get our numbers straight first anyway, as you continue to insist on using incorrect values.

Did you want me to walk you through every step just so you are capable of understanding, or should I assume you have some kind of intelligence at least? I'll go through every step, you let me know when it becomes too difficult for you ok?

182 kills per hour without a cannon.

390 kills per hour with a cannon.

(390-182)/390 = 0.53333

(If I just did 182/390 that shows the percent of how long the task will take with a cannon. Done this way is the time saved, understand?)

According to Qeltar, you would normally use:

3 Zamorak Brews (2), which is 1.5 (4)

3 Super Strength (2), which is 1.5 (4)

6 Prayer Potion (4), his numbers said 3 (2), which is wrong. Prayer drains at the same rate. Not too hard so far right?

0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Zamorak Brews

0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Super Strengths

0.533*6 = 3.2 Prayer Potions

0.8*801 = 640.8

0.8*4,072 = 3,257.6

3.2*7,770 = 24,864

640.8 + 3,257.6 + 24,864 = 28,762.4 saved on supplies.

Was that so difficult to understand?

Was that so incredibly impossible as you stated? If his prayer potion numbers truly are wrong, you are correct.

Nope, as your numbers still don't include anything, such as us valueing range XP at 3k from Avansies, nor qeltar's boosted rates from melee, or the actual benefit from the supply reduction.

What? They don't include anything? I valued Range experience at 4gp each, I stated that did I not? I then used your average of 12 damage per cannonball. "Qeltar's boost rates from melee" are what you did. I'll be honest, from the amount of mistakes you have done, and purposely changing the results to suit you, I don't trust that what you have done is correct. "Zombie Monkies are only a 40k loss per hour" Woops sorry I meant for it to be 2.75x higher than that, what a silly error. I'd rather not have to walk you through the above calculations as I showed above for this one and next ones. I am hoping you are capable of testing them yourself. It really isn't that difficult. Feel free to post the calculations, but you haven't shown anything so far.

... I proved that 168,875 wrong, why are you ignoring that and continuing to use that value? Also, see above.

You did what now? I recall you swapping it to Dharoks for no logical reason, I don't recall any proof however. I specifically stated that to compare if a cannon is worth using or not, they have to be tested the same way, the only difference being whether a cannon was used or not. So no, I didn't ignore that number, but you clearly ignored what I said. I know that for a fact to, as if you didn't ignore it, you would see it can't be compared to Dharoks. It could be compared to Dharoks if the test with a cannon had also been using Dharoks. I'm saying that somewhere, somehow, the test numbers for melee\vs DH must be off - 107 kills with whip\defender vs. 162 with DH means somethings is amiss; all his other numbers have those two much closer together, and this is for monsters with only 120 hp.

'Scuse me? Must I include the entire quote? Notice how I didn't change any of it, please.

Oh I get it now, you mixed up the numbers. That was why it made no sense. You were talking about Kalphites where I said you use 1,530 per hour, but then you said 2.7k per hour. Your numbers were all over the place, how could anyone of been expected to understand what you were trying to show. I'll show you what you said.

'scuse me? First the 1.5k cannonballs was for the half hour, given the 2.7k you claim are used per hour, now they have suddenly jumped to per hour, making 775 cannonballs? Now, for your 30 minute specters test, we have 3 numbers: 1.5k, the first number you used for # of c balls. 1.1k, the new number you used for # of c balls. And last and least, 775 cannonballs you used for calculating the cost of cannon. What?

You say that I said 1.5k was for a half hour. I never said that, I said 1.5k was for the hour, you misinterpretted. I've never mentioned a number close 2.7k. The closest number is 2,364, and that was from Aberrant Spectres. The 774 was what you used to complete the same amount of kalphites as without a cannon taking half the time. Now you say for Aberrant Spectres that I said 1.5k. Umm.... no, that 1.5k was for Kalhpites. I always used the 1.1k as the amount used in same time as without a cannon. So please excuse me for not understanding what you were trying to say because of your inability to understand what I said in the first place. I'll accept that explanation, as I said before, saying that I must have misunderstood the way you were using those numbers.

[So why are the pots suddenly dropping so much? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm assuming I'm missing something. I'm in a good mood, no person attacks \

Since when were the pots dropping so much? Task is completed quicker, so of course you don't need to use the same amount, you use less. Look above at the example with Aberrant Spectres.Looked at; these ones were dropping much more rapidly, when fewer prayer potions should have been used - he wasn't using any pots with defender+whip, but using several with DH (understandable). Pick one or another method, but we could use some results for Bloodvield testing.

You were suggesting we change money makers, but since you agree to keep Avansies, we can use them, where the range value is closer to 3 gp per hour (but again, impossible to calculate due to aforementioned problems)

I did neither. I never "agreed" to use Aviansies as the money maker. I used the 400k though as what they make per hour regardless of how it is acquired. That was my point, there is so many ways to make 400k per hour, it is foolish to think everyone or even the average way is Aviansies. I'm saying that Avansies is a low common denominator, that most people can use; the majority of us higher level players can do GWD and whatnot, making slayer less efficient, but then the argument would have been about my moneymaking methods - so I'm using avansies.

Honestly, we need some better numbers on bloodvields; unless DH truely is 30% better XP then rune defender\whip, in which case we should be using that instead, PLUS our +10% strength pray for 5% more XP. 12 extra wyvern kills @ 200 HP each = 2,400 damage.

I don't see how we need "better" numbers, they are fine as they are. Dharoks is better experience on Bloodvelds, Qeltar's tests show that. Keep in mind he melee'd with a Neitiznot helm So he wasn't actually doing Slayer at the time. Not that much better; all his other tests show DH as much closer to whip+defender, and easily surpassed with a slayer mask.

Even if the cannon only did get an extra 2,400 damage resulting in 19.2k worth of Range experience, it still makes Wyverns worth it. It was at 412k being needed with the money saved on supplies 392k or so now needs to be made per hour, making a cannon worth it. 392k means a savings of 1.2 minutes total, boosting our average slayer XP by.. around 100 XP per hour? Is that really worth the extra risk and hassle of a cannon? Does it have any meaningful effect on our calculations? And that doesn't count that you will be getting fewer melee kills, to the tune of 5% per hour, making for slightly less XP overall per kill, and mitigating the minuscule advantage of using a cannon.

Yes, I know what a ratio is; a number that describes the realtionship between two other numbers, at least in our usage. And how is that based on no results whatsoever? That's simple math.. We're taking the extra kills the cannon gets us, and I'm merely using it to point out that XP from the cannon doesn't count nearly as much as XP from melee, including the fact that a cannon slows down melee slightly.

Simple math then is it? Lets look at this simple math:

Aberrant Spectres with a cannon gets you an extra 208 kills per hour.

208/390*100 =53.3%

So 53.3% of the possible experience goes to the cannon.

In short you get the exact same amount of melee and Hitpoints experience per hour, but you get bonus Range and Slayer experience.

65,520 melee experience.

21,840 Hitpoints experience.

37,440 Range experience.

That means the overall result is:

1.86x damage done is to melee.

0.62x damage done is to Hitpoints.

1.07x damage done is to Range.

For everyone 1 experience of melee, you get 0.575 experience of Range. You apparently don't realize that cannon slows down your melee XP, due to time to setting up\reloading, and 53.3% doesn't go to the cannon - my numbers are quite simple. When a cannon deals 1 damage, you get 2 range XP. When a whip deals 1 damage, you get 4 melee XP and 1.33 HP XP - 5.33 XP vs. 2 XP.

Mh himm. Except that they wouldn't be doing anything to the kills your cannon was getting; so using a cannon on or off slayer tasks shouldn't make a difference.

The point is, say without a Slayer Helm and prayer you get 10k Slayer experience per hour, and with you get 20k. You are always going to get the same amount of Range experience anyway. That wasn't what my argument was about, we'll let this one die.

So you are saying whether on Slayer on Slayer or not, the bonuses of prayer and Slayer helm have no effect. Ok.... was I not just doing that off a Slayer task? Correct, glad you understand me. Regardless of if your on a slayer task, prayer and slayer helm will do nothing for a cannon.

Actually, it was calculated for kalphites, which you seem to have switched with bloodvields, which should be significantly more then 354k, as pointed out above.

Err... what? Calculated for Kalphites you say, hmm. Then pray tell why you said it was 460k for Bloodvelds? I have already proven it was 169k for Bloodvelds, a far cry from 460k. Even more so once you calculate Range experience in. When did I supposedly switch a number with Kalphies. I never worked out a number to being 460k being needed I believe. Considering I proved Kalphites was 298k without Range being added in to it, where did I get the 460k from Kalhpites from then? You haven't proved anything, besides your calculations being wrong - and you haven't said anything about mine, or even why I said yours were incorrect.

Good thing you didn't, they would only have skewed your results even more. Guess we have to go with DH then, that and +10% strength seem to be teaching our whip + defender combo a few lessons.

Good thing I didn't what? If you are referring to Range experience, you have been the one going on and on about me not having put it in. But apparently, according to what you say, If I do it will skew the results. I already explained why you can't use numbers for Dharoks as a comparison to the cannon at Bloodvelds, a fact which you seem unable or unwilling to grasp. And I'm saying you cant use whip's numbers either - you are using DH's prayer pots, and either DH is truly 60% faster then whip, in which case we should ditch the 8% bonus from a slayer helm and pray 10% strength on DH, or the whip\defender numbers are off.

Good, also read what I said about high slayer\low summoning throwing off the results if you don't continue to train slayer after 99.

How about you repost what you said, i'd rather not look through 105 pages of text to find one little bit of information. What has training Slayer beyond 99 have to do with altering the average experience per charm? Very simple. Say summoning and slayer charms are introduced while you are at level 90 slayer. You train to 99 slayer, banking the charms. But from 90-99 slayer, you only get enough charms to level summoning from 16 to level 90, instead of 96. This means you won't get to use high level pouches from slayer for 90-96, and your average XP per charm from slayer will go down. If your already at 99 slayer, and get the equivalent charms of 99 slayer AGAIN, it would be the same as training 1-99 slayer; your getting the full XP.

'Suse me again, if you truel wish I can change it. Suquahs are 106 slayer XP, not 108, hence their slayer XP per hour will go up 105. This will make our average slayer XP go up 4.5 XP per hour, a difference of 4,050 XP from 1-99 slayer. Good thing you caught that, it was really skewing my results ;) (sarcasm)

Oh right... For someone who didn't even know that they gave a higher amount of Slayer experience, of course you must be right with how much they give. How silly of me to think otherwise.... Good point, it's fortunate I looked it up on rune wiki, which, say what you want, holds more credibility with me then you.

Zombies aren't real... what? Oh, and I guess that we should have 4different sections. 'Zarfot and Ydasil's XP" and "Everyone else's 100% attention XP", at roughly 50% lower, then "Everyone else's XP when doing normal slaying" at 30% lower still. I guess I should have made 3 threads... (Sarcasm again, ignore it at will : ))

You'll find I am not the only one who gets those rates. Also note that is only 3 different things you stated (bad at maths I see). You really are a fool aren't you? "But zarfot is a machine or a zombie or whatever, other people aren't so it is impossible" Seriously I think you just can't cope that you are using worse methods or whatever else and that other people can get alot higher experience than you. The only reason for you that "Slayer Sucks" is because you suck at Slaying. Your responses are mostly illogical and are more often than not, made up. Oddly enough, you can't seem to find any problems with my methods or qeltars.

Sticking to incorrect numbers and refusing to change or ague about them, instead simply stating and restating them, really doesn't warrant a 'look at my numbers! I proved it!' post. I will be ignoring any further posts after this that say 'see above', as well as my own :P

And this is coming from you? I am willing to debate over the numbre provided you debate over them rather than trying to make up numbers to try and discredit what I have posted. I have gone through step by step to show how the calculations work, I asked you to see if there were mistakes. You never pointed out the mistakes so I can only assume there weren't any. I pointed them out in quite a few places, starting with the origionals, which you ignored and continued to build on your incorrect numbers.

It helps if you understand what I'm saying; you seem to have a nasty habbit of switching from 1-99 slayer getting 96 summon to 80-99 slayer getting 96, back and forth, and so on and so on.

You seem to be getting less and less intelligent with each post. I've not once switched between those two different rates. I have stuck with 80-99 getting you 96 Summoning. You have been saying it has to be 1-99 or whatever else. So no, I do not have a "nasty habit" of switching between numbers. 13.8mil Slayer to 13mil Summoning experience is equivalent of 80-99 Slayer getting 1-96 Summoning. How is that hard to understand. The time I mentioned 1-99 is when I said that would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. Yes, because that's a really specific number. 'would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. '. Good to know your confident.

Why did we suddenly switch from BOB to unicorn? Won't that limit our inventory space for drops, since before we were relying on it to with all our pots? Oh, and you encounter a delay nearly every monster with picking up drops and running to the next.

We went through this pages ago. I said I never used a BOB, so therefore there was no switch. I said that if you want, others are able to using one if they want. I said that I presonally do not. You have more than enough room in your inventory even with a BOB, amazingly I mentioned this pages ago also. The delay you say I encounter is non-exsistant. I don't kill a monster, wait for the drop to show, pick it up, and then run to the next. That is a waste of time. While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies. So I am always in combat. So no, there is no time lost fot that. You stated that you had plenty of invo space without alching, thanks to your BOB (presumably war tortise). You don't have to wait for a drop, and given the few whip hits it takes to kill a dust devil, I find it unlikely that you run to the next one then slowly inch back to the drop site while attacking it so that you can pick up your drops; you would most likely kill it long before that, as the dust devils are often as much as a dozen squares apart, missing whip hits on both the running and the picking up of drops. Obviously this is more efficient then waiting for them to die, but you still miss quite a few hits. I'm experimenting with using bronze knives to lure several monsters over almost instantly, then killing them so that I lose very little time picking up drops, but I don't have any hard numbers from that. Plus it's kind of a pain to do. I'd rather just slay more relaxed and be able to talk to friends etc., which puts me off from testing :P

compfreak847 · October 29, 2008

I average 70-75k melee exp an hour on slayer and can exceed 80k on quite a few tasks (velds, dusties etc)

Dunno what your talking about 50k tops? lol

oh well to each there own

59.6k, actually, and although some tasks are quite good, others are very slow (mith dragons, anyone?), and banking times further reduce them.

You are definetely being completely biased for Slayer. You're using horrible examples for non-slayer.

You can get 100k+ cash + 100k+ xp/hour, much more than Slayer, and it comes with good charms. (armoured zombies)

Ditch the chins, and make that Aviansies. You can make 400k+ cash/hour, along with very good xp.

You don't miss out on Charms, as you can make up charms with the time saved. There is no doubt you gain faster xp, charms, and money from non-slayer.

Very true, I'm wondering if my monkie zombie numbers are messed up. These are far more efficient then mine.

100k cash + 100k XP vs

-120k cash + 110k XP

spending 220k to save 10% of the time.

Requires 2.2m earning rates to make up for it, and how good are armored zombie's charms? I need to get around to doing defender of varrock so I can try this out. :shock:

brunokiller · October 29, 2008

There are really a lot of garbage slayer tasks, though. I won't go into details, but I hate many of the slayer monsters - black demons, kalphites, dagganoths - the ones that are considered 'good', I can hardly stand.

You argue that slayer is bad xp and you hate those three tasks? Try doing them. it's pretty much the same as zombie monkeys, just stand there and watch Family Guy. Dark beasts are even better, combining both good afk xp, drops, and not having to go to a new monster every 40 minutes.

I also see you've never even TRIED ranging slayer tasks. I ranged 95-99 range on slayer tasks( and a bit of Godwars bosses).

Try:

Cannoning in general, especially mutated bloodvelds, dagannoths, and scarabites.

Ranging greater demons(not necessarily in the Ogres enclave), black demons, and much more.

ilovecardj · October 29, 2008

MIthril dragons is the only task thats slow but its fun. I get over 60k an hour at gargs/wyverns/etc usually close to 70k

I have been watching this carefully. Banking takes 2 minutes from 1 task to the next. (5k exp roughly, though some tasks are farther away)

I pray 5%-10% pray I use super sets. I use combat familars and cannons when available. I leave all invaluable loot on the ground, and I dont miss to many turns in combat when I pick it up.

When i play for 5 hours I can usually get 350k melee exp. thats about 70k an hour

awesome400 · October 29, 2008

287 i totally agree i made it to 42 slayer (after they made the 55slayer req for broads) before i got fed up with getting ogre and lesser tasks (ogre x2 lesserx2 xinfinity)

btw i like the last sentence

Seriously, read it. I know at least 90% of the posters won't, though.

Necrobrawler · October 29, 2008

My opinion is that slayer is definitely overrated. There are ways of earning cash and gaining experience points that are significantly better than what slayer has to offer. Slayer is not reliable as you cannot really select your assignments, and you have to train it to a high level in order to have the cash rolling in.

The reason why it's overrated is because it's almost become a default answer to questions like "How do I make money on members?" and has remained so for quite some time.

It doesn't suck however, it's just overrated and not a skill I would train more on. It probably does benefit you psychologically, since you get an assignment and you're more focused on training.

compfreak847 · October 29, 2008

MIthril dragons is the only task thats slow but its fun. I get over 60k an hour at gargs/wyverns/etc usually close to 70k

I have been watching this carefully. Banking takes 2 minutes from 1 task to the next. (5k exp roughly, though some tasks are farther away)

I pray 5%-10% pray I use super sets. I use combat familars and cannons when available. I leave all invaluable loot on the ground, and I dont miss to many turns in combat when I pick it up.

When i play for 5 hours I can usually get 350k melee exp. thats about 70k an hour

That's true, but a cannon can help boost that above our average of 60k, but will result in much less profit.

I also see you've never even TRIED ranging slayer tasks. I ranged 95-99 range on slayer tasks( and a bit of Godwars bosses).

Try:

Cannoning in general, especially mutated bloodvelds, dagannoths, and scarabites.

Ranging greater demons(not necessarily in the Ogres enclave), black demons, and much more.

Ranging tasks, without a doubt, is a very bad idea. There is no argument or questoin about that. Avansies is 40k XP and 400k profit per hour; far better then you will EVER get from slayer. I have tried, and with our low earning rates, bloodvields is the only task a cannon is worth using on - and the difference in XP is a virtual deadlock compared to melee alone.

287 i totally agree i made it to 42 slayer (after they made the 55slayer req for broads) before i got fed up with getting ogre and lesser tasks (ogre x2 lesserx2 xinfinity)

btw i like the last sentence

Seriously, read it. I know at least 90% of the posters won't, though.

Most posters seem to at least have an idea, although I doubt they've read through the hundreds of pages of replys, where all of their issues so far have been discussed. :?

My opinion is that slayer is definitely overrated. There are ways of earning cash and gaining experience points that are significantly better than what slayer has to offer. Slayer is not reliable as you cannot really select your assignments, and you have to train it to a high level in order to have the cash rolling in.

The reason why it's overrated is because it's almost become a default answer to questions like "How do I make money on members?" and has remained so for quite some time.

It doesn't suck however, it's just overrated and not a skill I would train more on. It probably does benefit you psychologically, since you get an assignment and you're more focused on training.

True, it doesn't completely suck; it's kind of fun and offers a break from regular training. I hadn't considered the psychological benefits, but for me I tend to want to take a break for something fun after each assignment :lol: It just isn't as good of XP as other methods of training, so it can't be considered the 'best'.

ydrasil · October 29, 2008

If his prayer potion numbers truly are wrong, you are correct.

Well he used 6 (4) in the hour without a cannon, so it will have been the same amount as with a cannon.

Feel free to post the calculations, but you haven't shown anything so far.

So I have to walk you through every single calculation that i've done? I don't see how you can say I haven't shown anything either. I've shown you purposely made the rate for Monkies 2.75x lower than what it should have been. I've shown that a cannon is worth using. I've shown that without using a cannon, Slayer is more efficient than Monkies. You keep saying it is my "original numbers". To what numbers are you referring?

I'm saying that somewhere, somehow, the test numbers for melee\vs DH must be off - 107 kills with whip\defender vs. 162 with DH means somethings is amiss; all his other numbers have those two much closer together, and this is for monsters with only 120 hp.

It may be tht it isn't correct. However you can't simply say that because one number is alot lower it must be wrong. It may simply be that he really did only get that many kills. You'll have to do a test yourself.

Looked at; these ones were dropping much more rapidly, when fewer prayer potions should have been used - he wasn't using any pots with defender+whip, but using several with DH (understandable). Pick one or another method, but we could use some results for Bloodvield testing.

You really need to be clearer in what you are saying, "theese ones were dropping much more rapidly". To which ones are you referring. If it was Bloodvelds, he used pots with both Dharoks and Whip. He also didn't use prayer with the Whip, I stated that earlier, and that could be a reason why it slowed down. Even still, you don't get hit that much and eating doesn't slow you down by alot. "Pick on or another method" again, to what one are you referring?

I'm saying that Avansies is a low common denominator, that most people can use; the majority of us higher level players can do GWD and whatnot, making slayer less efficient, but then the argument would have been about my moneymaking methods - so I'm using avansies.

A higher money maker doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. If you recall I have stated many times that the average profit is higher than 50k, and up to 150k. I was using your rate of 14.9k, even though you yourself averages 15.7k on the slowest task the average Slayer will do. Also note, that using the +10% prayer and cannon, and better methods for each task, it is easily possible to average over 20k per hour. All that combined means that you will need an even higher method of making money than what is presently available.

392k means a savings of 1.2 minutes total, boosting our average slayer XP by.. around 100 XP per hour? Is that really worth the extra risk and hassle of a cannon? Does it have any meaningful effect on our calculations? And that doesn't count that you will be getting fewer melee kills, to the tune of 5% per hour, making for slightly less XP overall per kill, and mitigating the minuscule advantage of using a cannon.

It is still better is it not? Keep in mind this is just the one task. If you average it out for every task, it will be even furthur under 400k. With Aberrant Spectres it is 258k being needed, 392k for Skeletal Wyverns, 307k for level 90 Dagannoths and 80k for Bloodvelds. That is an average of 259k being needed. According to what you said earlier, you would get the same amount of melee kills per hour and all the extra were done by cannon. So it does nothing but give bonus experience.

You apparently don't realize that cannon slows down your melee XP, due to time to setting up\reloading, and 53.3% doesn't go to the cannon - my numbers are quite simple. When a cannon deals 1 damage, you get 2 range XP. When a whip deals 1 damage, you get 4 melee XP and 1.33 HP XP - 5.33 XP vs. 2 XP.

Oddly enough I know it takes time to set up and reload cannon. I was the one who brought that up afterall. Want to know why that doesn't have to be added in? It is already in. Unless you are suggesting that Qeltar Stopped timing every time he went to reload his cannon, the extra time taken to do that is already included. I already know that about the damage, but what effect does that have on the ratio? We don't know how much Range and melee experience you will get on each task. So we can't predict how much overall experience you are getting.

Correct, glad you understand me. Regardless of if your on a slayer task, prayer and slayer helm will do nothing for a cannon.

Now it is this type of thing that really is starting to annoy me. I've never once stated that the bonus from a Slayer helm or any prayer will have an effect on the cannon. So what are you doing here. You state something, which I have already said since I first brought this up, and infering that I didn't already know. Then you are going to say that I finally understand? That is complete and utter nonsense.

You haven't proved anything, besides your calculations being wrong - and you haven't said anything about mine, or even why I said yours were incorrect.

All my calculations showed was that Slayer was more efficient which would have made you wrong. Since it made you wrong, that must mean my calculations were wrong then? I have said many reasons why yours were wrong but you choose to neglect seeing them. An example of this is when I stated that just because you can X amount of Range experience using Chinchompas, how does that make a cannon less efficient for Slayer? The answer is it doesn't ahve any effect, a point which you seemed unable to comprehend.

And I'm saying you cant use whip's numbers either - you are using DH's prayer pots, and either DH is truly 60% faster then whip, in which case we should ditch the 8% bonus from a slayer helm and pray 10% strength on DH, or the whip\defender numbers are off.

Ok... that makes no sense. Can't use the numbers of the Whip because we are using Dharoks prayer pots? Dharoks wasn't 60% faster either, it was 51%. 8% bonus from Slayer helm? Could have sworn it was 15% to Attack and 15% to Strength.

Very simple. Say summoning and slayer charms are introduced while you are at level 90 slayer. You train to 99 slayer, banking the charms. But from 90-99 slayer, you only get enough charms to level summoning from 16 to level 90, instead of 96. This means you won't get to use high level pouches from slayer for 90-96, and your average XP per charm from slayer will go down. If your already at 99 slayer, and get the equivalent charms of 99 slayer AGAIN, it would be the same as training 1-99 slayer; your getting the full XP.

That would only of really had an effect when Summoning was released. It has been out for months now so that isn't an issue anymore. The only time it will be an issue is if someone who hasn't played in however long logs in after all this time with 90 Slayer and decides to get Summoning up via Slayer. Saying that those people are even the minority would be an overstatement. You could also say that experience past 99 is still worth it to those people. Just because there is no more level increases or extra bonuses, doesn't make it useless.

Good point, it's fortunate I looked it up on rune wiki, which, say what you want, holds more credibility with me then you.

I looked at the site, it never even mentioned anything about Suqahs. Nor did it even mention that on some tasks the monster give more Slayer experience than their Hitpoints. But you go ahead and belive that if you want.

Oddly enough, you can't seem to find any problems with my methods or qeltars.

I have mentioned several problems with your methods and calculations for both Qeltar and you. Qeltar wasn't on Slayer was one method I brought up that is very important, that is a problem. Qeltar doesn't use stat enhancing prayers, also a problem. I have poited out several mistakes in your calculations which you seem unable to comprehend as being wrong. For example where you compared a cannon+Whip to Dharoks at Bloodvelds.

I pointed them out in quite a few places, starting with the origionals, which you ignored and continued to build on your incorrect numbers.

I mentioned this earlier in this post.

Yes, because that's a really specific number. 'would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. '. Good to know your confident.

I didn't check to see at what level you get to 98 so I am unsure if it gets you to 98. It would get you to approximately 12.2mil Summoning experience from 1-99 Slayer from 1 Summoning. So that is indeed level 98. Yes I am confident about that also. Please refrain from trying to insult me again also.

You stated that you had plenty of invo space without alching, thanks to your BOB (presumably war tortise). You don't have to wait for a drop, and given the few whip hits it takes to kill a dust devil, I find it unlikely that you run to the next one then slowly inch back to the drop site while attacking it so that you can pick up your drops; you would most likely kill it long before that, as the dust devils are often as much as a dozen squares apart, missing whip hits on both the running and the picking up of drops. Obviously this is more efficient then waiting for them to die, but you still miss quite a few hits. I'm experimenting with using bronze knives to lure several monsters over almost instantly, then killing them so that I lose very little time picking up drops, but I don't have any hard numbers from that. Plus it's kind of a pain to do. I'd rather just slay more relaxed and be able to talk to friends etc., which puts me off from testing :P

I stated this pages ago. You only look more foolish the more you press this matter. I never said that. I said that if you want a BOB can be taken if you want more room for drops. I never said that I use one. The only familiars I use are Unicorns and Geyser Titan's, neither of which are BOBs. That means I don't use BOBs. Refer to the Dust Devil vid I posted. See how little time I lost from picking up drops? See how you purposely exaggerated the distance between them? If you had read what I said, you'll also see that I never once inferred that I get to another one, and then inch my way back to the drop. I said "While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies." Read through that logically and what does it tell you? It says that I am already attacking another one before the first one dies. The drop is only 1 square away. WOW!!!!!! That is so hard to move 1 square!!!!

So no, I don't "miss quite a few hits" for things you are incapable of doing/understanding. Bronze knifes are a waste of time and will slow down your experience. Amazingly when I do Slayer, I ahev plenty of time to talk to my friends without getting what you have said to be a 50% reduction in speed.

Ranging tasks, without a doubt, is a very bad idea. There is no argument or questoin about that. Avansies is 40k XP and 400k profit per hour; far better then you will EVER get from slayer. I have tried, and with our low earning rates, bloodvields is the only task a cannon is worth using on - and the difference in XP is a virtual deadlock compared to melee alone.

It isn't always a bad idea. Ranging on some tasks is faster or only just slow than meleeing. Range+cannon on Black Demons is the fastest way to complete a Black Demon task. Range+cannon is the fastest way to do Hellhounds. Range+Cannon is only slightly slower than melee+cannon in the waterfall area. It is even possible to use chinchompas on Nechryaels.

At 400k an hour, a cannon is worth using on every single task I showed. You seem unable to accept that. 302k needing to be made for Dagannoths, sounds worth it to me. Bloodvelds 80, definately worth it. Skeletal Wyverns 392k, still worth it. 258k on Aberrant Spectres, sounds worth it to me. 280k I think it was for Kalphites (and that was without adding in Range experience and money saved on supplies), so yep, those are worth using a cannon on also. So yes a cannon is worth using and it is far from a deadlock as you would call it

P.S. For the impossibly higher rates that I apparently get, it seems that is is possible for others to achieve them after all. You weren't wrong again were you? That would be unfortunate.

Bauke · October 29, 2008

Damn, are you people still discussing about this? I mean, seriously..

Liking a skill is a personal opinion. Get over it.

compfreak847 · October 30, 2008

Feel free to post the calculations, but you haven't shown anything so far.

So I have to walk you through every single calculation that i've done? I don't see how you can say I haven't shown anything either. I've shown you purposely made the rate for Monkies 2.75x lower than what it should have been. I've shown that a cannon is worth using. I've shown that without using a cannon, Slayer is more efficient than Monkies. You keep saying it is my "original numbers". To what numbers are you referring? The numbers calculated from Qeltar's rates.

I'm saying that somewhere, somehow, the test numbers for melee\vs DH must be off - 107 kills with whip\defender vs. 162 with DH means somethings is amiss; all his other numbers have those two much closer together, and this is for monsters with only 120 hp.

It may be tht it isn't correct. However you can't simply say that because one number is alot lower it must be wrong. It may simply be that he really did only get that many kills. You'll have to do a test yourself. Or we could simply use DH on that task, if it truly is more efficient. If it isn't, the number would be even higher anyway; plus our +10% strength prayer.

Looked at; these ones were dropping much more rapidly, when fewer prayer potions should have been used - he wasn't using any pots with defender+whip, but using several with DH (understandable). Pick one or another method, but we could use some results for Bloodvield testing.

You really need to be clearer in what you are saying, "theese ones were dropping much more rapidly". To which ones are you referring. If it was Bloodvelds, he used pots with both Dharoks and Whip. He also didn't use prayer with the Whip, I stated that earlier, and that could be a reason why it slowed down. Even still, you don't get hit that much and eating doesn't slow you down by alot. "Pick on or another method" again, to what one are you referring?I'm talking about bloodvields; he did not pray any sort of stat boosts with DH, as far as I know. See above for the rest.

I'm saying that Avansies is a low common denominator, that most people can use; the majority of us higher level players can do GWD and whatnot, making slayer less efficient, but then the argument would have been about my moneymaking methods - so I'm using avansies.

A higher money maker doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. If you recall I have stated many times that the average profit is higher than 50k, and up to 150k. I was using your rate of 14.9k, even though you yourself averages 15.7k on the slowest task the average Slayer will do. Also note, that using the +10% prayer and cannon, and better methods for each task, it is easily possible to average over 20k per hour. All that combined means that you will need an even higher method of making money than what is presently available.14.9k is from Qeltar's rates; 50-75k would be acceptable when +10% strength is factored in; my rates are with +10% strength, and a cannon has been proven inefficient for all but bloodvelds. A higher money maker DOES make it more efficient, but sticking to Avansies is only fair, and I won't argue that point.

392k means a savings of 1.2 minutes total, boosting our average slayer XP by.. around 100 XP per hour? Is that really worth the extra risk and hassle of a cannon? Does it have any meaningful effect on our calculations? And that doesn't count that you will be getting fewer melee kills, to the tune of 5% per hour, making for slightly less XP overall per kill, and mitigating the minuscule advantage of using a cannon.

It is still better is it not? Keep in mind this is just the one task. If you average it out for every task, it will be even furthur under 400k. With Aberrant Spectres it is 258k being needed, 392k for Skeletal Wyverns, 307k for level 90 Dagannoths and 80k for Bloodvelds. That is an average of 259k being needed. According to what you said earlier, you would get the same amount of melee kills per hour and all the extra were done by cannon. So it does nothing but give bonus experience. Bloodvields is the only other task proven to benefit; and that benefit is truly tiny, at 5% - all in all, only affecting our slayer rates by a couple hundred XP per hour at the most.

You apparently don't realize that cannon slows down your melee XP, due to time to setting up\reloading, and 53.3% doesn't go to the cannon - my numbers are quite simple. When a cannon deals 1 damage, you get 2 range XP. When a whip deals 1 damage, you get 4 melee XP and 1.33 HP XP - 5.33 XP vs. 2 XP.

Oddly enough I know it takes time to set up and reload cannon. I was the one who brought that up afterall. Want to know why that doesn't have to be added in? It is already in. Unless you are suggesting that Qeltar Stopped timing every time he went to reload his cannon, the extra time taken to do that is already included. I already know that about the damage, but what effect does that have on the ratio? We don't know how much Range and melee experience you will get on each task. So we can't predict how much overall experience you are getting. I'm saying that the melee XP with a cannon would be less then the melee XP without; more of the damage is from the cannon, which has a lower damage to XP rate.

You haven't proved anything, besides your calculations being wrong - and you haven't said anything about mine, or even why I said yours were incorrect.

All my calculations showed was that Slayer was more efficient which would have made you wrong. Since it made you wrong, that must mean my calculations were wrong then? I have said many reasons why yours were wrong but you choose to neglect seeing them. An example of this is when I stated that just because you can X amount of Range experience using Chinchompas, how does that make a cannon less efficient for Slayer? The answer is it doesn't ahve any effect, a point which you seemed unable to comprehend.

And I'm saying you cant use whip's numbers either - you are using DH's prayer pots, and either DH is truly 60% faster then whip, in which case we should ditch the 8% bonus from a slayer helm and pray 10% strength on DH, or the whip\defender numbers are off.

Ok... that makes no sense. Can't use the numbers of the Whip because we are using Dharoks prayer pots? Dharoks wasn't 60% faster either, it was 51%. 8% bonus from Slayer helm? Could have sworn it was 15% to Attack and 15% to Strength. 'Scuse me, I was guestimating the 60%; you know the numbers as well as I do, no need to be precise when it's not for comparison purposes. +15% to attack and 15% to strength = 7.5% bonus to hit, 7.5% bonus to accuracy. If you hit 100% of the time, your strength comes into play 100% of the time, for a 7.5% boost to XP. If you hit 50% of the time, half of the time your strength bonus is doing nothing (due to a zero being hit) and half the time your attack bonus is doing nothing (as you would have hit anyway), averaging out to 7.5% overall bonus to XP, rounded up to 8.

Very simple. Say summoning and slayer charms are introduced while you are at level 90 slayer. You train to 99 slayer, banking the charms. But from 90-99 slayer, you only get enough charms to level summoning from 16 to level 90, instead of 96. This means you won't get to use high level pouches from slayer for 90-96, and your average XP per charm from slayer will go down. If your already at 99 slayer, and get the equivalent charms of 99 slayer AGAIN, it would be the same as training 1-99 slayer; your getting the full XP.

That would only of really had an effect when Summoning was released. It has been out for months now so that isn't an issue anymore. The only time it will be an issue is if someone who hasn't played in however long logs in after all this time with 90 Slayer and decides to get Summoning up via Slayer. Saying that those people are even the minority would be an overstatement. You could also say that experience past 99 is still worth it to those people. Just because there is no more level increases or extra bonuses, doesn't make it useless. True, but not many people train slayer after 99; no one, to my knowledge, has trained from 1-99 slayer since summoning came out, so it still is an issue.

Good point, it's fortunate I looked it up on rune wiki, which, say what you want, holds more credibility with me then you.

I looked at the site, it never even mentioned anything about Suqahs. Nor did it even mention that on some tasks the monster give more Slayer experience than their Hitpoints. But you go ahead and belive that if you want. What? Look at the suqah page, it states 106 XP. http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Suqah. I've found runewiki to be by far the most accurate of all things related to RS, with far more information then any other site to boot.

Oddly enough, you can't seem to find any problems with my methods or qeltars.

I have mentioned several problems with your methods and calculations for both Qeltar and you. Qeltar wasn't on Slayer was one method I brought up that is very important, that is a problem. Qeltar doesn't use stat enhancing prayers, also a problem. I have poited out several mistakes in your calculations which you seem unable to comprehend as being wrong. For example where you compared a cannon+Whip to Dharoks at Bloodvelds. We have established how to adjust Qeltar's rates so that, both mathmatically and in real world testing, they fit nicely to slayer. DH vs. Whip has been discussed above.

Yes, because that's a really specific number. 'would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. '. Good to know your confident.

I didn't check to see at what level you get to 98 so I am unsure if it gets you to 98. It would get you to approximately 12.2mil Summoning experience from 1-99 Slayer from 1 Summoning. So that is indeed level 98. Yes I am confident about that also. Please refrain from trying to insult me again also. What?

(I'll try to restrain the insults, you could work on that yourself also ;) )

You stated that you had plenty of invo space without alching, thanks to your BOB (presumably war tortise). You don't have to wait for a drop, and given the few whip hits it takes to kill a dust devil, I find it unlikely that you run to the next one then slowly inch back to the drop site while attacking it so that you can pick up your drops; you would most likely kill it long before that, as the dust devils are often as much as a dozen squares apart, missing whip hits on both the running and the picking up of drops. Obviously this is more efficient then waiting for them to die, but you still miss quite a few hits. I'm experimenting with using bronze knives to lure several monsters over almost instantly, then killing them so that I lose very little time picking up drops, but I don't have any hard numbers from that. Plus it's kind of a pain to do. I'd rather just slay more relaxed and be able to talk to friends etc., which puts me off from testing :P

I stated this pages ago. You only look more foolish the more you press this matter. I never said that. I said that if you want a BOB can be taken if you want more room for drops. I never said that I use one. The only familiars I use are Unicorns and Geyser Titan's, neither of which are BOBs. That means I don't use BOBs. Refer to the Dust Devil vid I posted. See how little time I lost from picking up drops? See how you purposely exaggerated the distance between them? If you had read what I said, you'll also see that I never once inferred that I get to another one, and then inch my way back to the drop. I said "While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies." Read through that logically and what does it tell you? It says that I am already attacking another one before the first one dies. The drop is only 1 square away. WOW!!!!!! That is so hard to move 1 square!!!! Notice how far appart the dust devils are in chaos tunnels? Notice that one generally loses at least one whip hit, especially when then dust devil your attacking doesn't die on the hit you thought it would? Notice how the dust devils are spread out enough that the drops are anywhere from 4-15 squares away?

So no, I don't "miss quite a few hits" for things you are incapable of doing/understanding. Bronze knifes are a waste of time and will slow down your experience. Amazingly when I do Slayer, I ahev plenty of time to talk to my friends without getting what you have said to be a 50% reduction in speed. Try 25%, 59k to 45k.

Ranging tasks, without a doubt, is a very bad idea. There is no argument or questoin about that. Avansies is 40k XP and 400k profit per hour; far better then you will EVER get from slayer. I have tried, and with our low earning rates, bloodvields is the only task a cannon is worth using on - and the difference in XP is a virtual deadlock compared to melee alone.

It isn't always a bad idea. Ranging on some tasks is faster or only just slow than meleeing. Range+cannon on Black Demons is the fastest way to complete a Black Demon task. Range+cannon is the fastest way to do Hellhounds. Range+Cannon is only slightly slower than melee+cannon in the waterfall area. It is even possible to use chinchompas on Nechryaels. Yup, it certainly is possible to do all of those - it just makes slayer much less efficient. I'm glad to see you haven't tried to do a 'cannon at black demons' comparison, it's not even worth mentioning. Hellhounds are another inefficient cannon, and don't even get me started on chins at Nechs.

At 400k an hour, a cannon is worth using on every single task I showed. You seem unable to accept that. 302k needing to be made for Dagannoths, sounds worth it to me. Bloodvelds 80, definately worth it. Skeletal Wyverns 392k, still worth it. 258k on Aberrant Spectres, sounds worth it to me. 280k I think it was for Kalphites (and that was without adding in Range experience and money saved on supplies), so yep, those are worth using a cannon on also. So yes a cannon is worth using and it is far from a deadlock as you would call it It's worth using on none of the tasks, except bloodveld\wyverns - where it boosts XP by ~200 on our entire slayer average.

P.S. For the impossibly higher rates that I apparently get, it seems that is is possible for others to achieve them after all. You weren't wrong again were you? That would be unfortunate. So far I haven't seen proof of anything like that, including your getting the 'higher rates'.

compfreak847 · October 30, 2008

[hide=]

Damn, are you people still discussing about this? I mean, seriously..

Liking a skill is a personal opinion. Get over it.

Please don't troll. I've found this discussion both entertaining and informative. I can keep it going if I so desire. Liking a skill is a personal opinion; determine which way to train a skill is the fastest is not.[/hide]

I just did the DoV quest, and spent some time testing out Zombies. They were tested in 10 minute chunks; from aggressive to unaggressive, 10 minutes to the second according to a time test. All XP rates, drops, and charms were screenshotted before being entered into a spreadsheet so average could be calculated. Equipment was as follows:

Nezinot helm

Salve ammy (e)

Hitpoints cape

Proslyte Top

Verac's Skirt

Abyssal Whip

Rune Defender

Barrows Gloves

Dragon Boots

Berserker Ring

Bunyip provides enough healing that no eating or prayer is required. Piety was used, with prayer being recharged from the altar across from the ladder. A pure set was drank every 5 minutes. Monsters were made aggressive by running down the hall and back every ten minutes, at a time loss of less then 7 seconds. Location takes 29 seconds to run to from clan wars arena. Numbers include costs of pots\prayer potions.

Results:

XP rates: 100k per hour Melee XP

Drops: 175k per hour

Charms: 20.4 gold, 9.6 green, 8.4 blue, 1.2 crimson per hour.

Total in crimson, using numbers standard for all slayer charm conversions: 27 (26.99)

This is going to make for some interesting changes to my 'best XP' rates.

ydrasil · October 30, 2008

The numbers calculated from Qeltar's rates.

I've used alot of his numbers. Please be specific.

Or we could simply use DH on that task, if it truly is more efficient. If it isn't, the number would be even higher anyway; plus our +10% strength prayer.

It isn't a matter of Dharoks being more efficient. The calculations are there to show if a cannon is worth using. By comparing Dharoks (which doesn't matter if it is 2% faster or 100% faster) to a Whip with a cannon, you've changed the results and they cannot be compared. The difference has to be whether or not a cannon was used. I don't see why you find that so difficult to understand.

I'm talking about bloodvields; he did not pray any sort of stat boosts with DH, as far as I know. See above for the rest.

I already know that he used no state enhancing prayer. Over the course of all the posts that I have made I have never said otherwise. The reason he used prayer with Dharoks was to keep his Hitpoints lower safely. The Bloodvelds would hit too often otherwise.

14.9k is from Qeltar's rates; 50-75k would be acceptable when +10% strength is factored in; my rates are with +10% strength, and a cannon has been proven inefficient for all but bloodvelds. A higher money maker DOES make it more efficient, but sticking to Avansies is only fair, and I won't argue that point.

Qeltar doesn't have rates for Slayer however. 14.9k Isn't what I would call accurate as it was based on killing them without the bonuses from a Slayer Helm, without the bonus of a stat enhancing prayer, and more often than not using low efficiency methods. There are too many factors that you are unable to change the result for to get an accurate average for what you would get on Slayer. You are guessing at how much the Slayer helm increases experience by, you guess how much prayer increases experience by. Combine that with him using less efficient methods and not using a cannon (which regardless of what you think, at 400k per hour it is worth using). You ignored what I said and you say that it is only efficient for Bloodvelds. You got that by comparing it inaccurately and got 350k per hour being required. Is needing less than 300k for the other tasks mean they are sufddenly inefficient? I think not.

You didn't understand what I was talking about with the higher money making method. Using an accurate average (which is over 20k Slayer experience per hour), also using a more accurate profit of up to 150k, using more efficient killing methods will boost the overall experience rate so high, that they will only get slightly less experience per hour. However comparing the profit into that makes Monkies far from being more efficient. That is why I said that there is currently no way to average a high enough money maker for Zombie Monkies to be worth it.

Bloodvields is the only other task proven to benefit; and that benefit is truly tiny, at 5% - all in all, only affecting our slayer rates by a couple hundred XP per hour at the most.

Would you please stop that, seriously? Using the exact same way to work out if a cannon is more efficient was applied to more than Bloodvelds, and all were proven to be efficient. With Bloodvelds only requiring 80k per hour needing to be made, it is fair to say that a cannon provides more than a "truly tiny, at 5%" increase. Since you seem unwillinging to accept that, I'll ask you to do it. Using the same method, using the numbers Qeltar got, you show me how they were not efficient. Only then can you truly say what you have been repeating and to have others agree (that also requires you do not make up numbers again).

I'm saying that the melee XP with a cannon would be less then the melee XP without; more of the damage is from the cannon, which has a lower damage to XP rate.

You were the one who said all extra kills came specifically from the cannon. Now you are saying otherwise. Unless it is single combat, which is only on one task (Fire Giants), you will still always be hitting with your Whip alongside the cannon. You will still hit just as often and just as high. There may be a slight decrease in overall melee experience, but nothing too significant.

'Scuse me, I was guestimating the 60%; you know the numbers as well as I do, no need to be precise when it's not for comparison purposes. +15% to attack and 15% to strength = 7.5% bonus to hit, 7.5% bonus to accuracy. If you hit 100% of the time, your strength comes into play 100% of the time, for a 7.5% boost to XP. If you hit 50% of the time, half of the time your strength bonus is doing nothing (due to a zero being hit) and half the time your attack bonus is doing nothing (as you would have hit anyway), averaging out to 7.5% overall bonus to XP, rounded up to 8.

I think you are forgetting something. Ignore hitting 100% of 50% of the time, as we don't know the average on each monster. It is impossible to hit 100% of the time anyway. Think about this from a different perspective. Say nothing changes, base stats and the same equipment. On average you hit 70% of the time. Now assume all that changes is the use the +10% Strength prayer. Does that mean it only comes into effect when you hit? Yes and no. While the bonus to Strength has no affect when you don't hit, it always has an affect when you do hit. Everytime you hit, it is in effect every hit. So it is technically in effect 100% of the time, regardless of how often you hit.

With attack, we don't know how much effect it has. As we all know Attack level isn't equal to accuracy. You can't say how much effect it will have simply whether you hit or miss. Either way, you can't predict how much effect the bonuses of Slayer Helm will have overall, or the prayer. You need to actually test it, you can't derive it mathematically unless you know specifically the formula that is used when calculating how often you hit or your average hit.

True, but not many people train slayer after 99; no one, to my knowledge, has trained from 1-99 slayer since summoning came out, so it still is an issue.

I am sure some people have gone from 1-99 Slayer since the release of Summoning. It has been out for almost a year after all, it would be foolish to think no-one has done so.

What? Look at the suqah page, it states 106 XP. http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Suqah. I've found runewiki to be by far the most accurate of all things related to RS, with far more information then any other site to boot.

You could try testing it yourself to see the actual number.

We have established how to adjust Qeltar's rates so that, both mathmatically and in real world testing, they fit nicely to slayer. DH vs. Whip has been discussed above.

We actually have not. Not in the real world testing and especically not mathematically. Refer a bit above for my reasoning why. You can't mathematically predict what the change will be because you don't know how much of an effect it has.

Notice how far appart the dust devils are in chaos tunnels? Notice that one generally loses at least one whip hit, especially when then dust devil your attacking doesn't die on the hit you thought it would? Notice how the dust devils are spread out enough that the drops are anywhere from 4-15 squares away?

They are very clsoe together in the Chaos Tunnels, so what are suggesting I notice? Look at my video again. It was never more then a few steps from one to another. Does it matter if it didn't die? If it didn't, it still tries to attack you does it not? That means it will still close and the hitting with a Whip cuases no slow down. I can surmise that you have clearly not been using the Chaos tunnels if you think the drops are up to 15 squares away. You really need to see that video again and you'll see that there is barely any time lost at all.

Yup, it certainly is possible to do all of those - it just makes slayer much less efficient. I'm glad to see you haven't tried to do a 'cannon at black demons' comparison, it's not even worth mentioning. Hellhounds are another inefficient cannon, and don't even get me started on chins at Nechs.

Actually it makes Slayer more efficient. Using the Range/cannon for Black Demons is 75% faster Slayer experience. Getting up to 250 kills per hour. So a 'cannon at black demons comparison' would be very helpful to again show your error. However, as I have stated, Qeltar hasn't done so so I can't use his rates. I can't test myself as you'll either say I am lieing, I am inaccurate, it is impossible for others to do that or whatever other reason you may use. A cannon at Hellhounds does result in faster experience than no cannon. It is in effect a multi combat zone as you are not being attacked. As for chins on Nechryaels, are you not better of using chinchompas on them than training range with them elsewhere? It may not be quite as fast as other methods, but you will receive charms and drops to help cover the cost.

It's worth using on none of the tasks, except bloodveld\wyverns - where it boosts XP by ~200 on our entire slayer average.

With an earning rate of 400k per hour, how is Aberrant Spectres only requiring a rate of 258k inefficient? An earning rate of 307k for Dagannoths is less than 400k. Kalphites at 280k I think it was is less than 400k.

So far I haven't seen proof of anything like that, including your getting the 'higher rates'.

How about the people who just posted who said that? Do they just not exist because they only once again prove you were wrong? 3 people posted on this page saying directly or indirectly that my rates are closer to what they average than what you suggest.

Inuashakent · October 30, 2008

Actually it makes Slayer more efficient. Using the Range/cannon for Black Demons is 75% faster Slayer experience. Getting up to 250 kills per hour. So a 'cannon at black demons comparison' would be very helpful to again show your error.

Charms.

ToxicDuck · October 30, 2008

You are definetely being completely biased for Slayer. You're using horrible examples for non-slayer.

You can get 100k+ cash + 100k+ xp/hour, much more than Slayer, and it comes with good charms. (armoured zombies)

Ditch the chins, and make that Aviansies. You can make 400k+ cash/hour, along with very good xp.

You don't miss out on Charms, as you can make up charms with the time saved. There is no doubt you gain faster xp, charms, and money from non-slayer.

Ok fair points there Kent :lol:

Heat of the moment and all. I should simplify it. Slayer is more fun. For ME. This is the crux of my point. This is why I argue with friends about it, and why they shouldn't do something bad like bandits. I realise now that bandits are indeed a very bad example, forgive me on being slightly behind the times here #-o

And to play devil's advocate here kent, why don't you recommend more beneficial forms of training for exp? No agenda here, just wondering.

ikeforever · October 30, 2008

sorry to say this comp, but you only have a personal vendetta with slayer...don't drag us into this battle of you hating slayer...

slayer for me is fun, end of story

brunokiller · October 30, 2008

Ranging tasks, without a doubt, is a very bad idea. There is no argument or questoin about that. Avansies is 40k XP and 400k profit per hour

Many slayer monsters have no real ranged defence. Such as greater demons(ranging > meleeing here), bloodvelds, goraks, pretty much everything except dark beasts and wyverns can be ranged.

Slayer Sucks

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