Slayer Sucks

Maulmachine · October 30, 2008

I disagree with some of your rates, during some slayer tasks I get around 65k xp an hour, also theres let say 25k slayer xp and that's 90k xp per hour, it may not be efficient but it provides variety.

wyverns can be ranged bruno...

brunokiller · October 30, 2008

I disagree with some of your rates, during some slayer tasks I get around 65k xp an hour, also theres let say 25k slayer xp and that's 90k xp per hour, it may not be efficient but it provides variety.

wyverns can be ranged bruno...

I know. But it's not effective.

They have high ranged defence.

compfreak847 · October 30, 2008

Or we could simply use DH on that task, if it truly is more efficient. If it isn't, the number would be even higher anyway; plus our +10% strength prayer.

It isn't a matter of Dharoks being more efficient. The calculations are there to show if a cannon is worth using. By comparing Dharoks (which doesn't matter if it is 2% faster or 100% faster) to a Whip with a cannon, you've changed the results and they cannot be compared. The difference has to be whether or not a cannon was used. I don't see why you find that so difficult to understand. It's very simple - his whip rates for the first results must be off. DH does not provide that much of an advantage; we should retest, as one or the other of his rates are very obviously off.

14.9k is from Qeltar's rates; 50-75k would be acceptable when +10% strength is factored in; my rates are with +10% strength, and a cannon has been proven inefficient for all but bloodvelds. A higher money maker DOES make it more efficient, but sticking to Avansies is only fair, and I won't argue that point.

Qeltar doesn't have rates for Slayer however. 14.9k Isn't what I would call accurate as it was based on killing them without the bonuses from a Slayer Helm, without the bonus of a stat enhancing prayer, and more often than not using low efficiency methods. There are too many factors that you are unable to change the result for to get an accurate average for what you would get on Slayer. You are guessing at how much the Slayer helm increases experience by, you guess how much prayer increases experience by. Combine that with him using less efficient methods and not using a cannon (which regardless of what you think, at 400k per hour it is worth using). You ignored what I said and you say that it is only efficient for Bloodvelds. You got that by comparing it inaccurately and got 350k per hour being required. Is needing less than 300k for the other tasks mean they are sufddenly inefficient? I think not. No, but needing more then 400k does require it. All of the above is accounted for with slayer XP; we really don't know about his methods, so I can't make an argument there.

You didn't understand what I was talking about with the higher money making method. Using an accurate average (which is over 20k Slayer experience per hour), also using a more accurate profit of up to 150k, using more efficient killing methods will boost the overall experience rate so high, that they will only get slightly less experience per hour. However comparing the profit into that makes Monkies far from being more efficient. That is why I said that there is currently no way to average a high enough money maker for Zombie Monkies to be worth it. Accurate average? Already done, 14.9. Accurate profit? Questionable; slayer monsters, due to rarer, more valuable drops then most monsters, have a wildly varying profit. However, I lost money at kalphites (2 hours; they don't have any rare drops), lost money at greater demons (2 hours; rune med helms rare), roughly broke even on dust devils (chain is extremely rare), made a ~80k per hour profit on gargoyles (3 tasks, 2 rare drops - black mystic top and granite maul), lost money on black demons (not sure what there rare drops are; didn't get anything great myself). I would consider a 75k average profit per hour at slayer very lucky.

Bloodvields is the only other task proven to benefit; and that benefit is truly tiny, at 5% - all in all, only affecting our slayer rates by a couple hundred XP per hour at the most.

Would you please stop that, seriously? Using the exact same way to work out if a cannon is more efficient was applied to more than Bloodvelds, and all were proven to be efficient. With Bloodvelds only requiring 80k per hour needing to be made, it is fair to say that a cannon provides more than a "truly tiny, at 5%" increase. Since you seem unwillinging to accept that, I'll ask you to do it. Using the same method, using the numbers Qeltar got, you show me how they were not efficient. Only then can you truly say what you have been repeating and to have others agree (that also requires you do not make up numbers again). Your numbers, again, are so far off that they don't even need to be argued against. I've proven bloodvelds 360k per hour; I'm not sure where your 80k per hour number is coming from.

I'm saying that the melee XP with a cannon would be less then the melee XP without; more of the damage is from the cannon, which has a lower damage to XP rate.

You were the one who said all extra kills came specifically from the cannon. Now you are saying otherwise. Unless it is single combat, which is only on one task (Fire Giants), you will still always be hitting with your Whip alongside the cannon. You will still hit just as often and just as high. There may be a slight decrease in overall melee experience, but nothing too significant. 5%, just as I mentioned.

'Scuse me, I was guestimating the 60%; you know the numbers as well as I do, no need to be precise when it's not for comparison purposes. +15% to attack and 15% to strength = 7.5% bonus to hit, 7.5% bonus to accuracy. If you hit 100% of the time, your strength comes into play 100% of the time, for a 7.5% boost to XP. If you hit 50% of the time, half of the time your strength bonus is doing nothing (due to a zero being hit) and half the time your attack bonus is doing nothing (as you would have hit anyway), averaging out to 7.5% overall bonus to XP, rounded up to 8.

I think you are forgetting something. Ignore hitting 100% of 50% of the time, as we don't know the average on each monster. It is impossible to hit 100% of the time anyway. Think about this from a different perspective. Say nothing changes, base stats and the same equipment. On average you hit 70% of the time. Now assume all that changes is the use the +10% Strength prayer. Does that mean it only comes into effect when you hit? Yes and no. While the bonus to Strength has no affect when you don't hit, it always has an affect when you do hit. Everytime you hit, it is in effect every hit. So it is technically in effect 100% of the time, regardless of how often you hit. What? When you hit a zero, all the strength bonus or levels in the world have no effect at all. Therefore, my reasoning is correct - yours is not. You can argue over the lingustics of it, but slayer helm's strength bonus isn't doing anything when you hit 0; and the attack bonus isn't doing anything when you would normally hit anyway. For your 70% hit average, the 30% of the time you hit 0 your strength bonus is doing nothing; the 70% of the time you hit anyway your attack bonus is doing nothing. Both of them are halved because they are stats, not accurace or damage boosts, for an overall of 8%.

With attack, we don't know how much effect it has. As we all know Attack level isn't equal to accuracy. You can't say how much effect it will have simply whether you hit or miss. Either way, you can't predict how much effect the bonuses of Slayer Helm will have overall, or the prayer. You need to actually test it, you can't derive it mathematically unless you know specifically the formula that is used when calculating how often you hit or your average hit. You don't need to know that - attack is equal to accuracy. The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50. Any variance would be fairly small and not have much effect on the end result. Tests are limited in situations such as this; natural variance in the game would mean that detecting XP rate fluctuations on such a small scale would require an impossibly large test set, with every variable perfectly standardized - something that would be virtually impossible in the RS environment. As such, based on known information, we can mathematically derive the advantages much precisely then results obtained by testing.

True, but not many people train slayer after 99; no one, to my knowledge, has trained from 1-99 slayer since summoning came out, so it still is an issue.

I am sure some people have gone from 1-99 Slayer since the release of Summoning. It has been out for almost a year after all, it would be foolish to think no-one has done so. 8 months or so; possible but very unlikely. Honestly, at 15k XP per hour, that's 900 hours of slayer - over 240 days, roughly 4 hours a day of constant slaying, ever since summoning came out - and the XP would be much slower at first. Not really worth arguing, though; I just wanted to mention that source of error.

What? Look at the suqah page, it states 106 XP. http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Suqah. I've found runewiki to be by far the most accurate of all things related to RS, with far more information then any other site to boot.

You could try testing it yourself to see the actual number. I could, but it's really not nessasary - we're arguing about 2 XP here, in a single task, affecting our overall XP rates by ~50 XP per hour.

We have established how to adjust Qeltar's rates so that, both mathmatically and in real world testing, they fit nicely to slayer. DH vs. Whip has been discussed above.

We actually have not. Not in the real world testing and especically not mathematically. Refer a bit above for my reasoning why. You can't mathematically predict what the change will be because you don't know how much of an effect it has. We dont' have any accurate tests for bloodvelds then; we do have significant proof that one or more of our numbers are off by a large amount. Attempting to calculate with this will only yield inaccurate results.

Notice how far appart the dust devils are in chaos tunnels? Notice that one generally loses at least one whip hit, especially when then dust devil your attacking doesn't die on the hit you thought it would? Notice how the dust devils are spread out enough that the drops are anywhere from 4-15 squares away?

They are very clsoe together in the Chaos Tunnels, so what are suggesting I notice? Look at my video again. It was never more then a few steps from one to another. Does it matter if it didn't die? If it didn't, it still tries to attack you does it not? That means it will still close and the hitting with a Whip cuases no slow down. I can surmise that you have clearly not been using the Chaos tunnels if you think the drops are up to 15 squares away. You really need to see that video again and you'll see that there is barely any time lost at all. If it doesn't die, you will run to the next one; frequently outside the 'aggressive range' of the dust devils. I've been in chaos tunnels also; there is more then 'one or two squares' between the drops. Anyway, now that we have numbers for armored zombies, we can use them; but I'm still wondering why piety and super setting twice as often is with better equipment and stats is still getting me 5% less XP per hour then you, despite being in even better conditions then dust devils - the monsters are within a step or two away from each other, and they come to you with no delay in the whip hits - so easy pile pickups with losing virtually no time.

Yup, it certainly is possible to do all of those - it just makes slayer much less efficient. I'm glad to see you haven't tried to do a 'cannon at black demons' comparison, it's not even worth mentioning. Hellhounds are another inefficient cannon, and don't even get me started on chins at Nechs.

Actually it makes Slayer more efficient. Using the Range/cannon for Black Demons is 75% faster Slayer experience. Getting up to 250 kills per hour. So a 'cannon at black demons comparison' would be very helpful to again show your error. However, as I have stated, Qeltar hasn't done so so I can't use his rates. I can't test myself as you'll either say I am lieing, I am inaccurate, it is impossible for others to do that or whatever other reason you may use. A cannon at Hellhounds does result in faster experience than no cannon. It is in effect a multi combat zone as you are not being attacked. As for chins on Nechryaels, are you not better of using chinchompas on them than training range with them elsewhere? It may not be quite as fast as other methods, but you will receive charms and drops to help cover the cost. You would be killing black demons outside of the chaos tunnels, for virtually no charms, being forced to range instead of melee at much lower XP rates. Black demons are a terrible range tasks with the introduction of chaos tunnels; the extra charms far outshine the boost in speed - at a large cost - of the cannon. On lunar magic, you can't telegrab the charms from the lower hellhounds - reducing your charm rates quite dramatically, and the killing speed doesn't make up for the cost. Chins are not worth using on nechs; you can't hit 9, like you can in zombie tunnels, they have higher defence then in zombie tunnels, and the respawns are much more inconvenient, making for much slower chinning rates. And even zombies aren't worth it vs. Avansies with our profit rates.

It's worth using on none of the tasks, except bloodveld\wyverns - where it boosts XP by ~200 on our entire slayer average.

With an earning rate of 400k per hour, how is Aberrant Spectres only requiring a rate of 258k inefficient? An earning rate of 307k for Dagannoths is less than 400k. Kalphites at 280k I think it was is less than 400k. See my calculations; not only did I prove yours wrong, I established correct ones - which you steadfastly ignore, refusing to either refute mine or redeem yours.

So far I haven't seen proof of anything like that, including your getting the 'higher rates'.

How about the people who just posted who said that? Do they just not exist because they only once again prove you were wrong? 3 people posted on this page saying directly or indirectly that my rates are closer to what they average than what you suggest. So far I've see one post, by someone who hadn't even read the first post completely, saying that he thought his rates were closer to yours then mine. Even you were saying that slayer got less then 65k melee XP when you were first posting; numbers of 60k are quite close.

compfreak847 · October 30, 2008

sorry to say this comp, but you only have a personal vendetta with slayer...don't drag us into this battle of you hating slayer...

slayer for me is fun, end of story

I have numbers and facts to back up what I'm saying; if you find it fun, so be it, but slayer can and has been proven inefficient for training combat. Nothing personally agains the skill; I enjoy it and like training it. (Hence my 77 slayer level against your 39\35; but I'll try not to make it personal). I'm just saying that it's inefficient for training combat, but a good way to relax\have fun while getting decent XP.

I disagree with some of your rates, during some slayer tasks I get around 65k xp an hour, also theres let say 25k slayer xp and that's 90k xp per hour, it may not be efficient but it provides variety.

Some tasks can get up to 65k per hour; the average is about 60k. I'm not sure how your getting 25k slayer XP from that; 65k melee XP = 16.25k slayer XP.

Many slayer monsters have no real ranged defence. Such as greater demons(ranging > meleeing here), bloodvelds, goraks, pretty much everything except dark beasts and wyverns can be ranged.

They can be, but it's a terrible idea. You can't get the XP of avansies (40k is good), your missing out on the much better melee XP with black mask, and your not making much of a profit, vs. 400k from avansies. Melee is much better for slayer, thanks in part to the black mask.

Damn, are you people still discussing about this? I mean, seriously..

Image

Liking a skill is a personal opinion. Get over it.

Sorry to drag this up again, but I just had to post this.

Now, for some comparisons to Armored Monkies.

Armored Monkeys = 27 crimson charms per hour, 175k profit, 100k melee XP, 33.3k HP XP, 0 Slayer XP per hour

Slayer = 41 crimson charms per hour, 75k profit, 59.7k melee XP, 19.9k HP XP, 14.9k Slayer XP per hour.

First of all, what my argument is about - pure combat XP and profit.

Armored monkies = 133.3k XP, 175k profit per hour

Slayer = 74.6k XP, 75k profit per hour

No argument here - over double the profit, and nearly twice the XP from monkies.

Now, we factor slayer and summoning XP in, using our numbers for crimson XP

Armored monkies = 133.3k XP, 175k profit, 8791 summoning XP

Slayer = 94.5k XP, 75k profit, 13,285 summoning XP (Taken from Qeltar's charm drop rates)

It's really not a competition; a cannon has been proven inefficient for all but 2 tasks, and does not significantly affect overall XP and profit rates.

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

ydrasil · October 31, 2008

This post is one of the wrost you have done. You make up more facts and also says I said things that show your side (when I said nothing of the sort).

It's very simple - his whip rates for the first results must be off. DH does not provide that much of an advantage; we should retest, as one or the other of his rates are very obviously off.

If you want to retest with just whip, you'll also need to retest the cannon. If you do test it though, how can we trust you weren't purposely being biased? You have made up so many numbers and tried over and over to say I have said things that prove your point (like later down in this post you mention the 65k melee experience per hour, and then alter it to suit you).

No, but needing more then 400k does require it. All of the above is accounted for with slayer XP; we really don't know about his methods, so I can't make an argument there.

Seeing as it was shown that they required less than 400k, that means they are more efficient.

Accurate average? Already done, 14.9. Accurate profit? Questionable; slayer monsters, due to rarer, more valuable drops then most monsters, have a wildly varying profit. However, I lost money at kalphites (2 hours; they don't have any rare drops), lost money at greater demons (2 hours; rune med helms rare), roughly broke even on dust devils (chain is extremely rare), made a ~80k per hour profit on gargoyles (3 tasks, 2 rare drops - black mystic top and granite maul), lost money on black demons (not sure what there rare drops are; didn't get anything great myself). I would consider a 75k average profit per hour at slayer very lucky.

Answer truthfully. Which one will have a more accurate average, someone who tested while not on Slayer using less efficient methods to which you then "adjusted" to be on Slayer OR someone who has done well over 1,000 hours of Slayer and has 32.4mil Slayer experience and has detailed his methods in which many other people are also able to achieve?

If you were to answer truthfully the answer has to be without a doubt the latter. As for you saying you lost money, you are only 77 Slayer, what did you expect? You start receiving better drops from 80 Slayer. Nechryaels drop on average at least 1 pair of Rune Boots a task and many Rune Full Helms over time. At 83 Slayer you get Dragon Boots which are sold for in excess of 300k and are reasonably common. All the drops such as Fire Runes, Mystic pieces, Herbs, Herb Seeds, many different Rune items and other such items all add up over time. I personally had about 1.5mil worth of Rune items all received from Slayer or some clues I did not that long ago. That was only from a few Slayer levels also.

Your numbers, again, are so far off that they don't even need to be argued against. I've proven bloodvelds 360k per hour; I'm not sure where your 80k per hour number is coming from.

The 80k came from comparing Whip to Whip+cannon. You didn't prove them to be 360k for a reason I have stated so many times which you seem unable to comprehend, so i'll not bothre posting it again. If you didn't understand why the first 4 times or so, I don't see what once more will do. I at least try to show where you are wrong, I don't make up number to prove my point. You simply say "Your numbers, again, are so far off that they don't even need to be argued against". That is such a pathetic excuse.

What? When you hit a zero, all the strength bonus or levels in the world have no effect at all. Therefore, my reasoning is correct - yours is not. You can argue over the lingustics of it, but slayer helm's strength bonus isn't doing anything when you hit 0; and the attack bonus isn't doing anything when you would normally hit anyway. For your 70% hit average, the 30% of the time you hit 0 your strength bonus is doing nothing; the 70% of the time you hit anyway your attack bonus is doing nothing. Both of them are halved because they are stats, not accurace or damage boosts, for an overall of 8%.

It is still true. Strength bonus and level can only have an effect when you hit is what you have said. If you have only level 1 Strength and 70 Attack (just an example), and you hit a 0, what is the difference between that 0 and another hit with a higher Strength level? Strength level/bonus only comes into effect when you hit regardless of the level or bonus at the time. What I am trying to show is that the Strength increase will always be in effect. I'm not saying that it will induce a 15% increase in experience just because of the Strength. I am simply trying to show that it is always in effect. There is no way for you to show that the results are simply halved because they don't always hit. Even if they were 7.5% from Strength and 7.5% from Attack is still a 15% increase.

You don't need to know that - attack is equal to accuracy. The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50. Any variance would be fairly small and not have much effect on the end result. Tests are limited in situations such as this; natural variance in the game would mean that detecting XP rate fluctuations on such a small scale would require an impossibly large test set, with every variable perfectly standardized - something that would be virtually impossible in the RS environment. As such, based on known information, we can mathematically derive the advantages much precisely then results obtained by testing.

Again you make up a number providing no evidence to it being true. You say the "The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50". Since when has that ever been determined? Where is there evidence of this? How do you even know how much effect the Attack bonus provides? The answers are; Never, non-existent, and you don't. You come back to you can get a more accurate result by deriving it mathematically compared to testing. I would agree, but that is only if you knew the formula that is sued to determine how you hit. Since we do not know how much effect it has it is just as inaccurate to attempt to do it mathematically by making up formula based on no evidence.

8 months or so; possible but very unlikely. Honestly, at 15k XP per hour, that's 900 hours of slayer - over 240 days, roughly 4 hours a day of constant slaying, ever since summoning came out - and the XP would be much slower at first. Not really worth arguing, though; I just wanted to mention that source of error.

That is only true because you seem unable to see when you are wrong. The average Slayer experience is not 15k per hour, this has been shown many times. Zarfot did start at maxed stats and 99 Slayer, but he did get 13.8mil Slayer experience in 530 hours. That is 500 hours for 13mil, due to averaging 26k Slayer experience per hour. A player need not have started at 1 Attack/Strength/Defence when they got 1-99 Slayer either. They may have been like you and believe that is was inefficient when it isn't and have 99 in every other stat but this one (obviously unlikely). The point is, it won't take 900 hours to get 99 Slayer. What is also funny to note is to see you skewing the results again - 13,034,431/15000 = 869 hours. So what was my apparent source of error?

We dont' have any accurate tests for bloodvelds then; we do have significant proof that one or more of our numbers are off by a large amount. Attempting to calculate with this will only yield inaccurate results.

So if you significant proof that the numbers are wrong, does that not also mean that the Dharoks numbers are wrong and it is 360k either? That means you have proven nothing either so you need stop saying that. Test it yourself then, or I can instead.

If it doesn't die, you will run to the next one; frequently outside the 'aggressive range' of the dust devils. I've been in chaos tunnels also; there is more then 'one or two squares' between the drops. Anyway, now that we have numbers for armored zombies, we can use them; but I'm still wondering why piety and super setting twice as often is with better equipment and stats is still getting me 5% less XP per hour then you, despite being in even better conditions then dust devils - the monsters are within a step or two away from each other, and they come to you with no delay in the whip hits - so easy pile pickups with losing virtually no time.

If it doesn't die I don't just ignore it, I kill it. Had you even watched the vid, which I am starting to doubt you ever did, you'll see that it is easy to compensate for. Simply because your equipment isn't better as you believe it to be, your stats have a very minimal advantage and Dust Devils are simply a better monster to train on. Is that so hard to understand? However yo are now being hypocritical, you say that you can pick up from at the Zombies with no loss in time. Have I not been saying all this time that the same can be easily done at Dust Devils?

You would be killing black demons outside of the chaos tunnels, for virtually no charms, being forced to range instead of melee at much lower XP rates. Black demons are a terrible range tasks with the introduction of chaos tunnels; the extra charms far outshine the boost in speed - at a large cost - of the cannon. On lunar magic, you can't telegrab the charms from the lower hellhounds - reducing your charm rates quite dramatically, and the killing speed doesn't make up for the cost. Chins are not worth using on nechs; you can't hit 9, like you can in zombie tunnels, they have higher defence then in zombie tunnels, and the respawns are much more inconvenient, making for much slower chinning rates. And even zombies aren't worth it vs. Avansies with our profit rates.

Yes the charm drop rate would be alot lower, but you do kill them significantly faster. Just because you can melee them somewhere else easier, doesn't make ranging terrible. The cannon won't add that large of a cost as you seem to think. Telegrabbing charms from Hellhounds was a bad idea anyway. The drop mostly gold so you are not losing out on much experience. If you honestly think the killing speed wouldn't make up for the cost, you are mistaken. What is faster, killing one at a time with no cannon, or attacking as many as you want as if it was multicombat using a cannon? With the Nechryaels, you have never been there. How do you know they are bad? You can hit 9 at a time regardless of what you think, they can summon Death Spawns, which you do also hit, and they have a low Defence. Unlike at Ape Atoll, these also provides you with many crimsons and other charms, as well as a multitude of drops. That cuts the cost down significantly.

See my calculations; not only did I prove yours wrong, I established correct ones - which you steadfastly ignore, refusing to either refute mine or redeem yours.

Now this is where you are wrong, i'll actually show why also rather than simply only saying you are wrong.

[hide=Aberrant Spectres]As you can see, without a cannon he gets 182 Kills per hour.

With a cannon he gets 390 kills per hour.

(Don't say but he is on Slayer, he isn't, why else would he use the Salve?)

Using a cannon takes up 2364 cannonballs per hour.

With a cannon, it takes 28 minutes to kill the same amount as without.

That means in that 28 minutes he used up about 1103.2 cannonballs. That costs about 209,608.

You now have 32 minutes to make back that money.

That means you need to make 393,014 per hour.

That means I made a mistake the first time, I know what the mistake was also. I added an extra 2 minutes to the usage of a cannon. I shouldn't have, because that time was already in with the time taken. So that means at 400k per hour, a cannon is owrth using on this task. I've no doubt you'll mention range experience, and that comes down to how you value it. At about 5gp per experience, that means you got 137,875 worth of experience. Even at 3gp each it means you got 82,725. That makes a cannon even more worth it and definitely should be used. Perhaps I find it odd, but why did your number of cannonballs suddenly drop from 1.5k to 1.1k? I realize that you made a mistake in your math, and you were over adjusting for the cannon, but why did the cannonball number suddenly drop, adn why is the damage per cannonball so much higher then our other tests\mathematically proven ones?[/hide]

This is when I showed the calculations for the Spectres. I hasn't even included the money saved on supplies or added in the Range experience. Please explain to me how your reply was proof of it being wrong? You mention it dropping from 1.5k to 1.1k but from what I see I never even mentioned anything close to 1.5k, so that only proves you were wrong. You mention damage per cannonball, it wasn't "so much higher as you seem to think. You said it would average 24 Range experience each and I had used 25. Keep in mind I had even added an extra 2 minutes to the time taken when I shouldn't have.

I next bring up the calculations here:

[hide=Aberrant Spectres]Aberrant Spectres was proven to be 393,014 gp per hour needing to be made for a cannon to be more efficient (so obviosuly that one is below 400k also). Take off the money saved no supplies brings it down to 364,251gp per hour. Say you value Range experience at 4gp each (just over 3.67). Then you also gain 105,888 worth of experience (at 4gp per experience and average 24 experience per cannonball which is 12 damage). That brings it down to 258,363 per hour that need to be made. Worth it? I think so. Unless the 1/2 hour we're calculating with cannon saves us 30k in supplies, I doubt it. Your equations are also quite inconsistent; notice that some of the equations include range XP (such as most of mine, at least the 'final result' ones) while others don't; I think we need to get our numbers straight first anyway, as you continue to insist on using incorrect values.[/hide]

You mention unless it really was 30k saved in supplies (which I then proved in my next post and you agreed with) that it was wrong. Since I proved you saved about 30k on supplies that must mean the Spectres are worth it after all. You say I insisted on using incorrect values. There was no incorrect values. They came directly from Qeltar's database, and oddly enough the first time I showed the calculations you never even said the numbers were incorrectly used.

So you proved that these were wrong? I might have gone blind because I see nothing in the way of proof here.

Level 90 Dagannoths now. I started off with making a mistake which you pointed out, this is it:

[hide=Dagannoths]177 kills per hour without a cannon.

280 kills per hour with a cannon.

You use up 1,244 cannonball per hour at a cost of 236,360 per hour.

177 Dagannoths will take only 33.2 minutes with a cannon.

In that time you will use up 688 cannonballs at a cost of 130,720.

You now have 26.8 minutes to gain back that 130,720gp.

You need to make 292,520gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it.

Sevral numbers are off. First of all, your kill rate per hour is 280 with a cannon, so 280/60 = 4.67 kills per minute, right? At that rate, 177 dagannoths divided by 4.67 kills per minute is 38 minutes, not 33. Also, you forgot to include in all of your figures that you were getting 2.67x the XP from melee, but that is (very roughly) made up by the Avansies XP. At 22 minutes to earn 130,720gp, that's 357k per hour - fast approaching our 400k per hour rate. Now take the fact that cannonballs are 192, not 190 each, and that adds another 3k to our total (Nitpicking, I know :lol: ) for 360.2k as the break-even cost of a cannon at daggys. On the good side, his cannonballs are more in line, at 11.6 XP per; slightly lower then my calculated numbers, due to daggys 97 hits vs. my 120 baseline, resulting in more KO hits. So, in conclusion, it would appear that a cannon is worth using for dagganoth tasks - albiet with 40k cheaper then our avansies, it will be saving a couple of minutes out of an hour, with a very small effect on the dagganoth XP, and a virtually unnoticeable effect on our slayer averages overall.[/hide]

I then fixed that mistake and got this:

[hide=Dagannoths]That is because I made a mistake, i'm not sure how I got 33.2 either :? . 177/280 = 0.632 or 63.2%, that means it is indeed 38 minutes. I'll redo it.

So it would take 37.9 minutes to kill 177 of them.

That means you use 786 cannonballs in that time at a cost of 149,340gp.

You have 22.1 minutes to make back that money.

That measn you have to make 405,972 per hour. At an earning rate of 400k per hour that is worth it. You must remember you save money due to less supplies which will bring it under 400k. Forgotten: Adjusting Qeltar's melee rates. 400k per hour is break even, where we neither gain nor lose time by using cannon.[/hide]

Yes that was at 405k. I then adjusted it to include money saved on supplies and Range experience getting this:

[hide=Dagannoths]Level 90 Dagannoths in Waterbirth Dungeon was proven to be 405,972. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it 382,379. Add on the experience value brings is down to 306,923. Also worth using a cannon on.See abive[/hide]

That is some great proof "See abive". You did nothing to prove that these were wrong. With the "see abive" you would have been referring to Skeletal Wyverns, I'll show these ones now.

[hide=Skeletal Wyverns]41 Wyverns without a cannon.

53 Wyverns with a cannon.

You use up 665 cannonballs per hour at a cost of 126,350.

41 Wyverns would take 46.4 minutes with a cannon.

In that time you will only use up 514 cannonballs at a cost of 97,660.

You now have 13.6 minutes to make back that money.

You need to make about 431,331 per hour for a cannon to be worth it.

I'd calculate in how much worth of Ranger experience you would get, but the Wyverns have higher defence. If you still got it at the same rate as previous examples that is 38,550 worth of Range experience, which brings the rate under 400k per hour. At 514 cannonballs to kill 12 200 hp monsters, for a total of 2,400 damage and 4,800 XP, with range XP being valued at 3gp each, that's 15k - enough that cannon doesn't even break EVEN in terms of XP. Good example, though.[/hide]

Over 400k yes. I later added in the money saved on supplies:

[hide=Skeletal Wyverns]Furthur proof showing how incompetent you are being. Where did 12,200 come from. 53*200 = 10,600. Where did you even get 2,400 damage from? I can't think of any way that you could have got that number. The task with a cannon increases speed by 30% than without. Due to the increased kill rate, you save on supplies. You save 8,887 on Super Restores, 1,824 on Sara Brews, 408 on Super Attacks, 1,940 on Super Strengths, and 5,924 on Pineapple Pizza. That is an overall saving of 19k simply because you kill faster. The only task it makes a difference on would be Bloodvields, where 9k really won't change anything significantly. 2,400 damage is from the extra hits by cannon.[/hide]

I admit I didn't understand when you mentioned 12 200. I had thought you meant 12,200 as just the one number. You actually meant 12 Skeletal Wyverns at 200 Hitpoints each. But as is shown, 19k was saved on supplies. Your "proof" of me being wrong was to say only Bloodvelds are worth it. So again, no prrof so far. I next included the Range experience:

[hide=Skeletal Wyverns]Skeletal Wyverns was proven to be 431,331. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it about 412k. Say you still average 12 damage a cannonball and value experience at 4gp each. That brings it down to 363k that needs to be made per hour. So yes that one is worth it also. Nope, as your numbers still don't include anything, such as us valueing range XP at 3k from Avansies, nor qeltar's boosted rates from melee, or the actual benefit from the supply reduction.[/hide]

You didn't make any sense here to be honest. You say I didn't even include the benefit of of supply reduction, well geez... maybe less supplies = less money spent. I proved it was about 19k saved and that was added in. I lated used your number to calculate the experience you got for Ranged instead:

[hide=Skeletal Wyverns]Even if the cannon only did get an extra 2,400 damage resulting in 19.2k worth of Range experience, it still makes Wyverns worth it. It was at 412k being needed with the money saved on supplies 392k or so now needs to be made per hour, making a cannon worth it. 392k means a savings of 1.2 minutes total, boosting our average slayer XP by.. around 100 XP per hour? Is that really worth the extra risk and hassle of a cannon? Does it have any meaningful effect on our calculations? And that doesn't count that you will be getting fewer melee kills, to the tune of 5% per hour, making for slightly less XP overall per kill, and mitigating the minuscule advantage of using a cannon.[/hide]

It is still more efficient than without, even though the bonus may be little. Extra risk? you have got to be kidding, if the cannon is set up there is no risk of losing it. You then say you get 5% less melee experience per hour, which would therefore negate you saying it was only 12*200 to Range experience, as you would get slightly more Range experience. Again, you simply state that with no proof. If its true it doesn't matter. You did nothing to prove the calculations were wrong.

There was also Kalphites:

[hide=Kalphites]162 kills/hour melee only.

320 kills/hour melee with a cannon.

You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each).

You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes.

It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes.

You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money.

147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour.

Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task.

Please explain how this is wrong... I see no mistakes. The cannon speeds up the rate of Slayer experience here by almost exactly 100%, that is twice as fast. Also you metaphor with the fruit is nonsensical. Comparing apples to half apples and half oranges.... err, making a fruit salad? Not the same amount of apples if there is even 1 orange. Say you have 10 apples. Compare that to 10 apples and 3 oranges... same amount of apples I see, except now you have more fruit in total. I do. You are spending 290,700k to save 29.7 minutes.. where did your 147,166 come from? That makes for a total of roughly 600k as the break even point. Oh, and my metaphor apparently was misunderstood, it was an attempt to help you understand - I guess it didn't. Not sure how I can explain it to you now, that's about as simple of terms as I could break it down to...[/hide]

This was the first part. Your reply alone means you have no idea. You thought it was spening 290.7k to save 29.7 minutes. 290.7k was for the cannonballs used per hour. I explained all this in my next section:

[hide=Kalphites]How didn't you understand this either? "Where did the 147,166 come from?" Umm idk.... might have been that is how you spent on the cannonballs. But no... you're right... that is too obvious and simple. I'll show you again how I got that number:

1,530 cannonballs used per hour which costs 290,700gp per hour.

Using a cannon, you complete the Kalphites at almost twice the speed. In other words you saved 29.625 minutes by using up 774 cannonballs which cost 147,167gp (30.375/60 * 290,700). You now have 29.625 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make the eqivalent of 298,059gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. If you value Range experience at 3gp each, you also gained 58,050 worth of Range experience also. Making a cannon even more worth it for someone who makes 400k per hour. 'scuse me? First the 1.5k cannonballs was for the half hour, given the 2.7k you claim are used per hour, now they have suddenly jumped to per hour, making 775 cannonballs? Now, for your 30 minute specters test, we have 3 numbers: 1.5k, the first number you used for # of c balls. 1.1k, the new number you used for # of c balls. And last and least, 775 cannonballs you used for calculating the cost of cannon. What?

For what its worth, your 775 cannonballs for 175 kills (slightly reduced melee kills due to cannon) @ 90 hp each = 20.3 damage per cannonball? Something's not right; I think we need a larger sample then 30 minuts of killing; both you and I agree that the damage is 12.1-12.5 per cannonball, far less then that. That's just highlighting the inaccuracy of a 30 minute test.[/hide]

You say I claimed to use 2.7k per hour. The closest number to that was 2,364 and that was for Aberrant Spectres. It was always 1.5k per hour for Kalphites, and hence 774 for the time to kill 162. After that you switch to Spectres and say I used 1.5k for them... well nope, that 1.5k was for Kalphites. You also say we need a larger sample than 30 minutes of killing.... which was among the most stupid things you have said. It wasn't based on 30 minutes of killing. Kalphites are very susceptible to the cannon from what I have seen also. This ended up being followed by this:

[hide=Kalphites]You really do not read do you? 1.5k.... 2.7k... I never mentioned either of those numbers. I claim? Did I not specifically express I got these rates from Qeltar's Database? Did I not prove I did also by posting a picture straight from it? 1.1k was the new number I used? It was the only number I used. Please actually read before you post. 775? Where did that one come from then? If I had calculated the cost with that number, it would have been 147,250gp for the cannonballs. Amazingly I never mentioned that number either. Excuse me, 774 cannonballs. My bad. See above for the 1.5k. I think I misunderstood the 2.3k; I now see what you mean by your numbers.[/hide]

Here you admit to being wrong, and you never tried to show anything wrong with this calculations again. So no proof was provided to them being wrong yet again and my calculations still stand.

Finally there is Bloodvelds. I'm not even going to bother showing these ones. You made the mistake of comparing it to Dharoks. Even still, you got them to be efficient. So this shows that Bloodvelds are efficient even when comparing to the wrong one, it is just a matter of how much more efficient it is.

So far I've see one post, by someone who hadn't even read the first post completely, saying that he thought his rates were closer to yours then mine. Even you were saying that slayer got less then 65k melee XP when you were first posting; numbers of 60k are quite close.

Then you are indeed being purposely ignorant. That was only one of them, see for yourself

Without getting into the minutiae of the argument/discussion, I find my figures a lot closer to Ydrasil's than Compfreak's.

I've done a bit of Slayer, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and I tend to use a cannon anytime I can.

regards

Teeg

I fail to see how from his post you surmised that he didn't even read the original post. All that was said was didn't want to get into the "minutiae of the argument/discussion". So again you lied to try and prove your point. Next is:

I average 70-75k melee exp an hour on slayer and can exceed 80k on quite a few tasks (velds, dusties etc)

Dunno what your talking about 50k tops? lol

oh well to each there own

While he never said mine were more correct, his numbers are closer to what I have been saying. Hence why I said in my post that there were people who "directly/indirectly" agreed with me. Other people that posted didn't say what they were getting, but they did also disagree with what you were saying.

Inuashakent · October 31, 2008

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make.

In Slayer's case, you can't.

compfreak847 · October 31, 2008

It's very simple - his whip rates for the first results must be off. DH does not provide that much of an advantage; we should retest, as one or the other of his rates are very obviously off.

If you want to retest with just whip, you'll also need to retest the cannon. If you do test it though, how can we trust you weren't purposely being biased? You have made up so many numbers and tried over and over to say I have said things that prove your point (like later down in this post you mention the 65k melee experience per hour, and then alter it to suit you). No, I provide screenshots, upon request, of every step of the task; the only way to alter them would be to intentionally stand around doing nothing. I have no problem with your tests if you do the same. That means including a clock of some sort in your screenshots with XP and time; unicorn's timer works nicely. That offers nearly irrefutable proof; neither of us have 'made up' numbers (At least I haven't, I hope you haven't either), although some numbers have changed as more information becomes available. I would be more then open to accepting your results, as long as they are well documented using the correct measurements and a significant sample size.

Accurate average? Already done, 14.9. Accurate profit? Questionable; slayer monsters, due to rarer, more valuable drops then most monsters, have a wildly varying profit. However, I lost money at kalphites (2 hours; they don't have any rare drops), lost money at greater demons (2 hours; rune med helms rare), roughly broke even on dust devils (chain is extremely rare), made a ~80k per hour profit on gargoyles (3 tasks, 2 rare drops - black mystic top and granite maul), lost money on black demons (not sure what there rare drops are; didn't get anything great myself). I would consider a 75k average profit per hour at slayer very lucky.

Answer truthfully. Which one will have a more accurate average, someone who tested while not on Slayer using less efficient methods to which you then "adjusted" to be on Slayer OR someone who has done well over 1,000 hours of Slayer and has 32.4mil Slayer experience and has detailed his methods in which many other people are also able to achieve? Could you point out where qeltar's 'methods' are less efficient? Obviously there are small things, such as picking up drops without losing much time etc, but any high level player should have mastered those - especailly Qeltar, whos rates I myself match almost perfectly at 100% concentration. The 'adjustments' have proven to work nicely, both mathmatically and in limited testing. All we really ahve from zarfot is vauge number ranges for melee XP, generally with varying equipment, and slayer XP that includes the use of cannon (not worth it with introduction of avansies, current cannonball prices, and our lower earning rates).

If you were to answer truthfully the answer has to be without a doubt the latter. As for you saying you lost money, you are only 77 Slayer, what did you expect? You start receiving better drops from 80 Slayer. Nechryaels drop on average at least 1 pair of Rune Boots a task and many Rune Full Helms over time. At 83 Slayer you get Dragon Boots which are sold for in excess of 300k and are reasonably common. All the drops such as Fire Runes, Mystic pieces, Herbs, Herb Seeds, many different Rune items and other such items all add up over time. I personally had about 1.5mil worth of Rune items all received from Slayer or some clues I did not that long ago. That was only from a few Slayer levels also. Without a time reference, profit rates cannot be determined - if it took you 20 hours to achive those 1.5m in drops, that really doesn't mean anything. Nechs are only furthering my point; a 1 hour task giving a 60k pair of rune boots plus other drops making up for prayer pots aren't going to get you 150k per hour. Spirit mages are a good example; they represent the fastest possible money earning rates with Slayer, even suppassing abyssal demons. All those drops do add up; but they do so fairly slowly, rendering my number of 75k fairly accurate. Generally speaking, I've averaged much less then that in my last 70 tasks, but I don't have hard numbers for each task.

What? When you hit a zero, all the strength bonus or levels in the world have no effect at all. Therefore, my reasoning is correct - yours is not. You can argue over the lingustics of it, but slayer helm's strength bonus isn't doing anything when you hit 0; and the attack bonus isn't doing anything when you would normally hit anyway. For your 70% hit average, the 30% of the time you hit 0 your strength bonus is doing nothing; the 70% of the time you hit anyway your attack bonus is doing nothing. Both of them are halved because they are stats, not accurace or damage boosts, for an overall of 8%.

It is still true. Strength bonus and level can only have an effect when you hit is what you have said. If you have only level 1 Strength and 70 Attack (just an example), and you hit a 0, what is the difference between that 0 and another hit with a higher Strength level? Strength level/bonus only comes into effect when you hit regardless of the level or bonus at the time. What I am trying to show is that the Strength increase will always be in effect. I'm not saying that it will induce a 15% increase in experience just because of the Strength. I am simply trying to show that it is always in effect. There is no way for you to show that the results are simply halved because they don't always hit. Even if they were 7.5% from Strength and 7.5% from Attack is still a 15% increase. I'm sorry, but your argument really isn't making sense. Assuming your attack and strength are equal, if you hit 0 your strength bonus isn't going to do anything. You can't argue that, right? If you hit, your attack bonus is going to be doing nothing. Right? The only overlap is the 7.5% of the time when you would have hit 0 but the attack bonus causes you to hit, bringing both attack and strength into play - but on the average 90% hit task, that only occurs 10/7.5 = 1.3% of the hits, being bosted by both 7.5% from strength and 7.5% from attack, bringing our average to around 7.7%, depending on the task.

You don't need to know that - attack is equal to accuracy. The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50. Any variance would be fairly small and not have much effect on the end result. Tests are limited in situations such as this; natural variance in the game would mean that detecting XP rate fluctuations on such a small scale would require an impossibly large test set, with every variable perfectly standardized - something that would be virtually impossible in the RS environment. As such, based on known information, we can mathematically derive the advantages much precisely then results obtained by testing.

Again you make up a number providing no evidence to it being true. You say the "The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50". Since when has that ever been determined? Where is there evidence of this? How do you even know how much effect the Attack bonus provides? The answers are; Never, non-existent, and you don't. You come back to you can get a more accurate result by deriving it mathematically compared to testing. I would agree, but that is only if you knew the formula that is sued to determine how you hit. Since we do not know how much effect it has it is just as inaccurate to attempt to do it mathematically by making up formula based on no evidence. The attack and strength bonus are both 15%, assumed to be to either levels or equipment bonus (source: KB); the formula does not need to be known - assuming the forumla for your max hit was X, X + .15*X = 1.15X; it does not matter what X is.

8 months or so; possible but very unlikely. Honestly, at 15k XP per hour, that's 900 hours of slayer - over 240 days, roughly 4 hours a day of constant slaying, ever since summoning came out - and the XP would be much slower at first. Not really worth arguing, though; I just wanted to mention that source of error.

That is only true because you seem unable to see when you are wrong. The average Slayer experience is not 15k per hour, this has been shown many times. Zarfot did start at maxed stats and 99 Slayer, but he did get 13.8mil Slayer experience in 530 hours. That is 500 hours for 13mil, due to averaging 26k Slayer experience per hour. A player need not have started at 1 Attack/Strength/Defence when they got 1-99 Slayer either. They may have been like you and believe that is was inefficient when it isn't and have 99 in every other stat but this one (obviously unlikely). The point is, it won't take 900 hours to get 99 Slayer. What is also funny to note is to see you skewing the results again - 13,034,431/15000 = 869 hours. So what was my apparent source of error? This has not been shown, and assuming your average of 26k, that's 104k melee XP per hour - impossible; his rates include a cannon on nearly half of his tasks, which #1 does not provide as much XP per hit, and #2 is inefficient given our methods.

We dont' have any accurate tests for bloodvelds then; we do have significant proof that one or more of our numbers are off by a large amount. Attempting to calculate with this will only yield inaccurate results.

So if you significant proof that the numbers are wrong, does that not also mean that the Dharoks numbers are wrong and it is 360k either? That means you have proven nothing either so you need stop saying that. Test it yourself then, or I can instead. You are welcome to test it; document it carefully, as I have detailed, and your results should be fairly reliable. I can run tests with DH myself, although I'd rather not try and get them as a slayer task. Remember, detail everything in a screenshot, and use at least 1 hour worth of testing for each method; more would be preferable.

If it doesn't die, you will run to the next one; frequently outside the 'aggressive range' of the dust devils. I've been in chaos tunnels also; there is more then 'one or two squares' between the drops. Anyway, now that we have numbers for armored zombies, we can use them; but I'm still wondering why piety and super setting twice as often is with better equipment and stats is still getting me 5% less XP per hour then you, despite being in even better conditions then dust devils - the monsters are within a step or two away from each other, and they come to you with no delay in the whip hits - so easy pile pickups with losing virtually no time.

If it doesn't die I don't just ignore it, I kill it. Had you even watched the vid, which I am starting to doubt you ever did, you'll see that it is easy to compensate for. Simply because your equipment isn't better as you believe it to be, your stats have a very minimal advantage and Dust Devils are simply a better monster to train on. Is that so hard to understand? However yo are now being hypocritical, you say that you can pick up from at the Zombies with no loss in time. Have I not been saying all this time that the same can be easily done at Dust Devils? Why would dust devils be a better monster then zombies? My hit rate is at least 95%, higher then yours; I am in combat as much or more as you, my hits are significantly higher, and I'm still getting 5% less XP.

You would be killing black demons outside of the chaos tunnels, for virtually no charms, being forced to range instead of melee at much lower XP rates. Black demons are a terrible range tasks with the introduction of chaos tunnels; the extra charms far outshine the boost in speed - at a large cost - of the cannon. On lunar magic, you can't telegrab the charms from the lower hellhounds - reducing your charm rates quite dramatically, and the killing speed doesn't make up for the cost. Chins are not worth using on nechs; you can't hit 9, like you can in zombie tunnels, they have higher defence then in zombie tunnels, and the respawns are much more inconvenient, making for much slower chinning rates. And even zombies aren't worth it vs. Avansies with our profit rates.

Yes the charm drop rate would be alot lower, but you do kill them significantly faster. Just because you can melee them somewhere else easier, doesn't make ranging terrible. The cannon won't add that large of a cost as you seem to think. Telegrabbing charms from Hellhounds was a bad idea anyway. The drop mostly gold so you are not losing out on much experience. If you honestly think the killing speed wouldn't make up for the cost, you are mistaken. What is faster, killing one at a time with no cannon, or attacking as many as you want as if it was multicombat using a cannon? With the Nechryaels, you have never been there. How do you know they are bad? You can hit 9 at a time regardless of what you think, they can summon Death Spawns, which you do also hit, and they have a low Defence. Unlike at Ape Atoll, these also provides you with many crimsons and other charms, as well as a multitude of drops. That cuts the cost down significantly. A cannon is a bad idea for black demons. You lose out on many crimsons per hour, and because you are not attacking, your kill rate isn't that much higher - melee will get you 61.5k XP per hour on demons in chaos tunnels. Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used), at 192 GP per cannonball that's a cost of 518k per hour. Now here's the kicker - at 12 damage on average per cannonball (24k XP per 1k), that's only 32.4k damage per hour, vs melee's 15.375,earning you 17.025k more XP per hour - increasing kill speed by 2.1x, or 28.5 minutes to get 1 hours worth of melee kills. That leaves you with 31.5 minutes to make up the 246k, requiring an earning rate of 468k per hour to break even, not including charms. I'll try again with hellhounds. 2.3k cannonballs, plus 58.4k melee XP per hour is 27.6 + 14.6 = 42.2k damage per hour, vs 14.6 from melee, at a cost of 441.6k per hour. You are spending 20.8 minutes vs. the 60 required for melee, at a cost of 153k per hour. This leaves us with 39.2 minutes to make up the 153k, at a rate of 234k per hour, lower then our estimated limits; however, that does not count the fact that cannon XP is less then standard melee XP. At our 400k per hour earning rate, we take 23 minutes to earn back the 153k, adding up with cannon for 43.8 minutes total and a savings of 27% of our time, increasing our slayer XP by 27%, from 14,616 to 18,562 slayer XP - a gain of 4k; so far so good. However, we are not looking at the behind-the-scenes XP. Because our cannon is killing 66% of the hellhounds to melee's 34%, the charm reduction is approxamatly 33%, reducing our Summoning XP from 10,447 to 6965, a loss of 3482 vs. the gain of 15.8k XP from earning back money at Avansies - roughly canceling each other out; 99 range is 48m and 59 hours, vs. summoning's 240m and 237 hours, the lost time being worth an additional 70m for a 1\6 ratio of Range XP to Summoning XP, making our lost summoning XP from unused charms actually worth more then our gained range XP from Avansies. This leaves us with our other arguments; because 66% of our 14,616 damage is going to the cannon, that's 19,293 combat XP from the cannon and 26,503 XP from melee, including HP, for a total of 45,796 XP - vs our original 77,951 combat XP for 1 hour. Including slayer XP creates totals of:

60,412 from the task in 43.8 minutes with cannon.

92,567 from the task in 60 minutes without cannon; all other factors, including money, standardized.

We are losing out on 35% of our total XP to save 27% of our time; all factors such as money and XP from avansies accounted for. No, cannon is not worth it. Phewph, that was a painful equation, but I made it as simple and easy to follow as possible. I don't have exact numbers for Nechs, but from guides and posts I've read, chins are nowhere close to being worth it for them. Obviously I can't show any exact numbers... *points to slayer level* :P

[hide=Aberrant Spectres]As you can see, without a cannon he gets 182 Kills per hour.

With a cannon he gets 390 kills per hour.

(Don't say but he is on Slayer, he isn't, why else would he use the Salve?)

Using a cannon takes up 2364 cannonballs per hour.

With a cannon, it takes 28 minutes to kill the same amount as without.

That means in that 28 minutes he used up about 1103.2 cannonballs. That costs about 209,608.

You now have 32 minutes to make back that money.

That means you need to make 393,014 per hour.

That means I made a mistake the first time, I know what the mistake was also. I added an extra 2 minutes to the usage of a cannon. I shouldn't have, because that time was already in with the time taken. So that means at 400k per hour, a cannon is owrth using on this task. I've no doubt you'll mention range experience, and that comes down to how you value it. At about 5gp per experience, that means you got 137,875 worth of experience. Even at 3gp each it means you got 82,725. That makes a cannon even more worth it and definitely should be used. Perhaps I find it odd, but why did your number of cannonballs suddenly drop from 1.5k to 1.1k? I realize that you made a mistake in your math, and you were over adjusting for the cannon, but why did the cannonball number suddenly drop, adn why is the damage per cannonball so much higher then our other tests\mathematically proven ones?/color][/hide]

This is when I showed the calculations for the Spectres. I hasn't even included the money saved on supplies or added in the Range experience. Please explain to me how your reply was proof of it being wrong? You mention it dropping from 1.5k to 1.1k but from what I see I never even mentioned anything close to 1.5k, so that only proves you were wrong. You mention damage per cannonball, it wasn't "so much higher as you seem to think. You said it would average 24 Range experience each and I had used 25. Keep in mind I had even added an extra 2 minutes to the time taken when I shouldn't have. I was trying to use your numbers; I guess I'll stick straight to Qeltar's from now on :). Given your very close # to 400k per hour, perhaps my above equation can show why a cannon has a huge drawback - your only getting 2 XP per cannonball damage, vs 5.333 XP per whip hit; making our slayer XP rise slightly due to faster kills, but our overall XP drops quite significantly. This one is so close that I see no need to redo everything - that takes a bit of time, ya kno. If you wish to verify it yourself, simply replace the numbers here with my numbers for hellhounds. The same can be done wyverns\dagganoths; both of their numbers are so close to 400k that the huge XP reduction from cannon, as shown in my equation, will easily push them far over 400k. I will do kalphites, which have a much lower threshold, to prove my point.

There was also Kalphites:

[hide=Kalphites]162 kills/hour melee only.

320 kills/hour melee with a cannon.

You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each).

You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes.

It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes.

You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money.

147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour.

Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task.

[...]

Here you admit to being wrong, and you never tried to show anything wrong with this calculations again. So no proof was provided to them being wrong yet again and my calculations still stand. First of all, your numbers are off - you are using Qeltar's raw numbers with neither slayer helm nor +10% strength factored in; once those are adjusted by 15%, making for 187 kills per hour, curiously not much higher then his rates with just black mask, we can do this more accurately.

320 kills/hour melee w\ cannon

1530 cannonballs lost

Task of 187 completed in 35 minutes & 893 cannonballs (171,456)

25 minutes to earn back 171,456

Requires 411k per hour to make it worth it.

I don't even need to point out that you will be getting 55% XP from melee\45% from cannon, out of the original 16,830 damage, for 49,367 XP from melee and 15,147 XP from cannon, for a total of 64,514 XP from the task, vs. 89.8k XP from melee alone - a loss of 30% of our XP, making our earning rate required for breakthrough shoot much higher. And yes, that is taking into account the XP from the cannon, which you've been talking about so much :wall:

Finally there is Bloodvelds. I'm not even going to bother showing these ones. You made the mistake of comparing it to Dharoks. Even still, you got them to be efficient. So this shows that Bloodvelds are efficient even when comparing to the wrong one, it is just a matter of how much more efficient it is. Run some tests on them; I'll try to too. Once we have good numbers we can calculate.

So far I've see one post, by someone who hadn't even read the first post completely, saying that he thought his rates were closer to yours then mine. Even you were saying that slayer got less then 65k melee XP when you were first posting; numbers of 60k are quite close.

Then you are indeed being purposely ignorant. That was only one of them, see for yourself

Without getting into the minutiae of the argument/discussion, I find my figures a lot closer to Ydrasil's than Compfreak's.

I've done a bit of Slayer, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and I tend to use a cannon anytime I can.

regards

Teeg

I fail to see how from his post you surmised that he didn't even read the original post. All that was said was didn't want to get into the "minutiae of the argument/discussion". So again you lied to try and prove your point. Next is: Easy, he didn't put my numbers (easily skipped, but given the lack of information in his post, I would tend to think he glossed over the first post, then scanned the last page and posted). I could just as easily say I get much lower numbers; Inushkant even admitted that '65k per hour from slayer seemed rather high' (almost exact words, I'm not wading back through 9 pages of replys to find it).

I average 70-75k melee exp an hour on slayer and can exceed 80k on quite a few tasks (velds, dusties etc)

Dunno what your talking about 50k tops? lol

oh well to each there ownMy numbers of 60k contradict his 70k; however, mine have been obtained by careful, documented testing, and Qeltar's rates. His vague description leaves much to doubt - such as that he might be getting 15% lower XP. Do you realize how little attention most RS players pay to XP and profit rates? I've head level 90s talk about how they average 400k per hour because of all the half keys they get. Admittedly, cardj is a high slayer level - almost the same as Qeltars, with slightly higher slayer\lower combat stats. Not that it matters.

Slayer = 75k profit, X XP\hr

Zombies = 175k profit, 133.3k XP\hr

100k per hour loss = 25% of the time spent slaying is diverted to match the earning rates of Zombies.

Counting solely melee XP, slayer would need to be 166.6k XP per hour, or 125k not including HP XP, to be better then Zombies for training combat.

Add summoning XP:

13,030 summoning from slayer, - 25% = 9,772 XP

Zombies = 8,799 XP - roughly 4 minutes at waterfiends, which give roughly 3/5ths the XP of zombies, for a total time\XP loss at zombies of 2%. Worth mentioning: Using a fire cape at Zombies would increase our strength bonus by ~3.8%, and our average hit by ~1.9% - using bandos would increase those numbers further; much more so then slayer, due to the vastly increased XP from Zombies.

There's really no way slayer can be argued to be better.

Obtaurian · October 31, 2008

Slayer is much faster than I keep seeing in this thread. If you concentrate, use piety and a combat familiar, you can get some pretty insane experience. Is it 100k melee experience an hour? No, but it's certainly not as low as you make it out to be.

Not saying that you're wrong about your other methods being faster, but don't underestimate Slayer.

compfreak847 · October 31, 2008

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make.

In Slayer's case, you can't.

A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation.

Inuashakent · October 31, 2008

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make.

In Slayer's case, you can't.

A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation.

Yes, you can isolate how much time you pay for the Slayer xp, but that isn't isolating how much Slayer xp is worth. You can't just say "You pay 32% efficiency and you make 1m/hour, so you are losing 320k per hour. If you value 20k slay xp over 320k do Slayer." because there is nothing that states exactly how much Slayer xp is worth.

There is no solution to the core of this debate. (Or rant... why isn't in the debate? It started as a rant, but now...)

compfreak847 · October 31, 2008

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make.

In Slayer's case, you can't.

A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation.

Yes, you can isolate how much time you pay for the Slayer xp, but that isn't isolating how much Slayer xp is worth. You can't just say "You pay 32% efficiency and you make 1m/hour, so you are losing 320k per hour. If you value 20k slay xp over 320k do Slayer." because there is nothing that states exactly how much Slayer xp is worth.

There is no solution to the core of this debate. (Or rant... why isn't in the debate? It started as a rant, but now...)

Why can't you? The value of the skill is basically nil, as the only use is in training it - so the most accurate way we have of determining value is by the difficulty of obtaining it. Other then that, there really is no method to determine it. This still counts as a rant, though - I'm ranting at people that think that slayer is a good way to train combat. Plus it gets much more exposure in the rants forum.

Inuashakent · October 31, 2008

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make.

In Slayer's case, you can't.

A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation.

Yes, you can isolate how much time you pay for the Slayer xp, but that isn't isolating how much Slayer xp is worth. You can't just say "You pay 32% efficiency and you make 1m/hour, so you are losing 320k per hour. If you value 20k slay xp over 320k do Slayer." because there is nothing that states exactly how much Slayer xp is worth.

There is no solution to the core of this debate. (Or rant... why isn't in the debate? It started as a rant, but now...)

Why can't you? The value of the skill is basically nil, as the only use is in training it - so the most accurate way we have of determining value is by the difficulty of obtaining it. Other then that, there really is no method to determine it. This still counts as a rant, though - I'm ranting at people that think that slayer is a good way to train combat. Plus it gets much more exposure in the rants forum.

You were kind of contradictory. You said you can, then you can't. I think you get the point that there is no gp worth of Slayer xp, though.

compfreak847 · October 31, 2008

Bottom line:

Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make.

In Slayer's case, you can't.

A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation.

Yes, you can isolate how much time you pay for the Slayer xp, but that isn't isolating how much Slayer xp is worth. You can't just say "You pay 32% efficiency and you make 1m/hour, so you are losing 320k per hour. If you value 20k slay xp over 320k do Slayer." because there is nothing that states exactly how much Slayer xp is worth.

There is no solution to the core of this debate. (Or rant... why isn't in the debate? It started as a rant, but now...)

Why can't you? The value of the skill is basically nil, as the only use is in training it - so the most accurate way we have of determining value is by the difficulty of obtaining it. Other then that, there really is no method to determine it. This still counts as a rant, though - I'm ranting at people that think that slayer is a good way to train combat. Plus it gets much more exposure in the rants forum.

You were kind of contradictory. You said you can, then you can't. I think you get the point that there is no gp worth of Slayer xp, though.

I'm not sure what you mean - I'm acknowledging that it is impossible to get the true 'value' of slayer XP to an individual, but I believe that a general approximation can be calculated. An item or service's value is usually determined using one of two methods - how much that service or item is worth, or how much you can benefit by using it (0, in slayer's case, above level 55), or how difficult it is to obtain the service or item (Which can be calculated, as shown above). That, however, doesn't take into account anything like slayer making people more willing to stick to a task, or the fun gained by training slayer vs. training at zombies.

Slayer is much faster than I keep seeing in this thread. If you concentrate, use piety and a combat familiar, you can get some pretty insane experience. Is it 100k melee experience an hour? No, but it's certainly not as low as you make it out to be.

Not saying that you're wrong about your other methods being faster, but don't underestimate Slayer.

Slayer is much faster than I keep seeing in this thread. If you concentrate, use piety and a combat familiar, you can get some pretty insane experience. Is it 100k melee experience an hour? No, but it's certainly not as low as you make it out to be.

Not saying that you're wrong about your other methods being faster, but don't underestimate Slayer.

We are using superhuman strength and no combat familiar, as this has been determined to be most efficient using our standardized money earning methods and training locations. I believe that 60-65k XP an hour, as tested by Qeltar, and me to some extent, is a reasonable rate for slayer. If you could offer solid evidence to the contrary, I would be happy to take a look and consider it.

Inuashakent · October 31, 2008

You can't estimate opinion; you can get the payoff of Slaying or not, but you can't determine if it's worth it or not.

Technically speaking, Slayer xp is invaluable for a player considering maxing.

ydrasil · October 31, 2008

No, I provide screenshots, upon request, of every step of the task; the only way to alter them would be to intentionally stand around doing nothing. I have no problem with your tests if you do the same. That means including a clock of some sort in your screenshots with XP and time; unicorn's timer works nicely. That offers nearly irrefutable proof; neither of us have 'made up' numbers (At least I haven't, I hope you haven't either), although some numbers have changed as more information becomes available. I would be more then open to accepting your results, as long as they are well documented using the correct measurements and a significant sample size.

I don't see how you can say you haven't made up numbers. The loss at Zombie Monkies was made up, you also argued that 8 crimsons per hour during Slayer was lucky. I might go do some tests anyway.

Could you point out where qeltar's 'methods' are less efficient? Obviously there are small things, such as picking up drops without losing much time etc, but any high level player should have mastered those - especailly Qeltar, whos rates I myself match almost perfectly at 100% concentration. The 'adjustments' have proven to work nicely, both mathmatically and in limited testing. All we really ahve from zarfot is vauge number ranges for melee XP, generally with varying equipment, and slayer XP that includes the use of cannon (not worth it with introduction of avansies, current cannonball prices, and our lower earning rates).

I have already pointed out out why several times. At Abberant Spectres when he uses the cannon, his main weapon is a SGS. That is slower than a Whip+Defender and would have increased the number of kills per hour (therefore also making a cannon even more worth using on them also). While it wouldn't add a significant bonus in the short term, better equipment would save time in the long term. On Gargoyles he doesn't use a Crush weapon, Saradomin Sword and a Godsword is faster than a Whip. At Mithril Dragons he wears Infinity boots while wearing Verac's armour. Since he would either be praying Melee, in which case he shouldn't even be wearing Verac's armour due to the Mage attack, or he could be praying Magic, in which case the additional Magic defence is irrelevant.

Also note he doesn't use a DFS, this falls under the equipment section. He also often wears a ROW, this has no bearing on kill rate, and a Berserker Ring is better. In some cases, he kills monsters in the Slayer Tower or another place when there is amuch better option to kill them elsewhere. Like with Nechryaels, in the Chaos Tunnels it is mutlicombat and the spawns are close together, same as with Dust Devils. For Spiritual Mages it is better to wear a Zamorak Robe Bottom, that way you lose no extra attack bonuses for only 1 less prayer bonus. At Suqahs he wears Karils and Verac Helm, taking damage from both the Mage and Melee at higher rates. Best way is to wear melee Defence and use protect from magic prayer. At Warped Terrorbirds using range protect is very helpful. At Waterfiends you mention that you average about 100 crimsons per hour, that is over 100 kills, about 125 or so. Qeltar doesn;t even get 100 kills per hour, so that must mean he isn't being as efficient as he could be. There is many more, but those are some good examples of why he isn't going as good as he could be.

Without a time reference, profit rates cannot be determined - if it took you 20 hours to achive those 1.5m in drops, that really doesn't mean anything. Nechs are only furthering my point; a 1 hour task giving a 60k pair of rune boots plus other drops making up for prayer pots aren't going to get you 150k per hour. Spirit mages are a good example; they represent the fastest possible money earning rates with Slayer, even suppassing abyssal demons. All those drops do add up; but they do so fairly slowly, rendering my number of 75k fairly accurate. Generally speaking, I've averaged much less then that in my last 70 tasks, but I don't have hard numbers for each task.

So you say the average is 75k from tasks due to drops and such. In that case it is actually at least 57k higher than that. You must also remember that you receive on average 24 points for finishing every task. Those 24 points are worth just over 57k. Since nearly every task takes under an hour to complete, you will get at the very least an extra 60k. That is 135k. Zarfot has a log of the amount of different tasks he received for 5.4m experince after getting to 26.8mil. Assuming he continued to average 26k experience (which is more than likely, as with his methods involving a Steel Titan he has gotten even faster), it would have taken about 207.7 hours. He completed 297 tasks in the time. That is one task every 42 minutes. That means on average due to buying those packs of runes he got an additional 81.6k per hour on top of whatever drops he may have received. This is why your rate of 50k profit per hour was always perceived as too low. I mentioned this during my first few posts on this thread I believe also.

I'm sorry, but your argument really isn't making sense. Assuming your attack and strength are equal, if you hit 0 your strength bonus isn't going to do anything. You can't argue that, right? If you hit, your attack bonus is going to be doing nothing. Right? The only overlap is the 7.5% of the time when you would have hit 0 but the attack bonus causes you to hit, bringing both attack and strength into play - but on the average 90% hit task, that only occurs 10/7.5 = 1.3% of the hits, being bosted by both 7.5% from strength and 7.5% from attack, bringing our average to around 7.7%, depending on the task.

Without testing no average can be achieved. You can't mathematically show how much of an effect it will have because we don't know how much of an effect everything else has in the first place. The purpose of what I was saying was to show it from a different perspective. Your Strength only ever comes into play when you hit, therefore the extra bonus is always coming into play when you hit. I'm just to leave this now because I know it cannot be gotten mathematically with what we know and it will have to be tested.

The attack and strength bonus are both 15%, assumed to be to either levels or equipment bonus (source: KB); the formula does not need to be known - assuming the forumla for your max hit was X, X + .15*X = 1.15X; it does not matter what X is.

That isn't true. It isn't a 15% increase in damage so therefore what you have shown is incorrect. It would be correct if it was a 15% increase in damage however. A 15% Strength increase will result in less than a 15% damage increase meaning it won't be 1.15X

This has not been shown, and assuming your average of 26k, that's 104k melee XP per hour - impossible; his rates include a cannon on nearly half of his tasks, which #1 does not provide as much XP per hit, and #2 is inefficient given our methods.

I have enver stated it was 26k Slayer experience which is then 104k melee experience. It is 26k Slayer experience though. You keep bringing up it doesn't provide as much experience per hit, while that is true, you are doing alot more hits per hour with a cannon. I'll respond to the inefficient part furthur on.

You are welcome to test it; document it carefully, as I have detailed, and your results should be fairly reliable. I can run tests with DH myself, although I'd rather not try and get them as a slayer task. Remember, detail everything in a screenshot, and use at least 1 hour worth of testing for each method; more would be preferable.

They don't need to be on a Slayer task. As I said which you then argued the same point is that if on Slayer or not has no bearing on the cannon.

Why would dust devils be a better monster then zombies? My hit rate is at least 95%, higher then yours; I am in combat as much or more as you, my hits are significantly higher, and I'm still getting 5% less XP.

You really need to stop pushing this. All the tiny things you keep mentioning simply do not provide enough of a benefit for them to be better. There is little room for error at Monkies and you cannot increase it any more. However, at Dust Devils there is room for errors which I do make and yet I get slightly more experience. So i'm not even getting the most amount of experience possible as it is. Also your hits aren't "significantly" higher than mine, your extra Strength levels with piety and the equipment you described hits one higher than me. Though at the same Strength level with the equipment you described the max hit is the same.

The next couple of sections are just full of errors and assumptions.

A cannon is a bad idea for black demons. You lose out on many crimsons per hour, and because you are not attacking, your kill rate isn't that much higher - melee will get you 61.5k XP per hour on demons in chaos tunnels. Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used), at 192 GP per cannonball that's a cost of 518k per hour. Now here's the kicker - at 12 damage on average per cannonball (24k XP per 1k), that's only 32.4k damage per hour, vs melee's 15.375,earning you 17.025k more XP per hour - increasing kill speed by 2.1x, or 28.5 minutes to get 1 hours worth of melee kills. That leaves you with 31.5 minutes to make up the 246k, requiring an earning rate of 468k per hour to break even, not including charms. I'll try again with hellhounds. 2.3k cannonballs, plus 58.4k melee XP per hour is 27.6 + 14.6 = 42.2k damage per hour, vs 14.6 from melee, at a cost of 441.6k per hour. You are spending 20.8 minutes vs. the 60 required for melee, at a cost of 153k per hour. This leaves us with 39.2 minutes to make up the 153k, at a rate of 234k per hour, lower then our estimated limits; however, that does not count the fact that cannon XP is less then standard melee XP. At our 400k per hour earning rate, we take 23 minutes to earn back the 153k, adding up with cannon for 43.8 minutes total and a savings of 27% of our time, increasing our slayer XP by 27%, from 14,616 to 18,562 slayer XP - a gain of 4k; so far so good.

The thing is, you are comparing range+cannon the melee. If it was just a comparison of range to range+cannon at Taverly you find the cannon makes it more efficient. "Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used)" When did I ever say that? I've never given an amount of cannonballs used per hour for Black Demons, that is another made up number based on no testing or anything. Just so you know, meleeing in the Chaos Tunnels is over 80k on Slayer, and Ranging in taverly is about 35k Slayer experience per hour, it results in over 100k Range experience per hour when done correctly.

With Hellhounds, where did you get 2.3k cannonballs per hour from? Also note that for a cannon to be as effective as possible at Hellhounds you also need to be ranging. This way the cannon can hit as many targets as possible and increasing experience by as much as possible.

However, we are not looking at the behind-the-scenes XP. Because our cannon is killing 66% of the hellhounds to melee's 34%, the charm reduction is approxamatly 33%, reducing our Summoning XP from 10,447 to 6965, a loss of 3482 vs. the gain of 15.8k XP from earning back money at Avansies - roughly canceling each other out; 99 range is 48m and 59 hours, vs. summoning's 240m and 237 hours, the lost time being worth an additional 70m for a 1\6 ratio of Range XP to Summoning XP, making our lost summoning XP from unused charms actually worth more then our gained range XP from Avansies. This leaves us with our other arguments; because 66% of our 14,616 damage is going to the cannon, that's 19,293 combat XP from the cannon and 26,503 XP from melee, including HP, for a total of 45,796 XP - vs our original 77,951 combat XP for 1 hour. Including slayer XP creates totals of:

60,412 from the task in 43.8 minutes with cannon.

92,567 from the task in 60 minutes without cannon; all other factors, including money, standardized.

If you cannon did kill 66% of the Hellhounds and melee did 34% of the kills (which makes no sense at all as using melee means cannon can only hit one target), how does that change into a 33% reduction in charms. Increased number of kills results in more charms, not less. It is like saying at Fire Giants because I used a cannon it increased the number of kills by 50% but I got 50% less charms than normal. Summoning also does not cost 240m, it only costs 80m. That is a common misconception. The skill itself uses up very little time to train also, approximately 13 hours to get from 1-99 Summoning using only crimsons (2800 per hour with a Kyatt). It is also possible to say that if you train Slayer, getting the charms for Summoning takes up no time. You are there to get Slayer experience, the charms are a bonus at no additional time. A major flaw in your calculations here is you have assumed that you get the same kills per hour with cannon as without.

We are losing out on 35% of our total XP to save 27% of our time; all factors such as money and XP from avansies accounted for. No, cannon is not worth it. Phewph, that was a painful equation, but I made it as simple and easy to follow as possible. I don't have exact numbers for Nechs, but from guides and posts I've read, chins are nowhere close to being worth it for them. Obviously I can't show any exact numbers... *points to slayer level* :P

There was too many assumptions, made up numbers and errors here to even begin to think this shows proof one way or the other. Next try you try to do this, make it easier to read. Don't have it in practically one giant paragraph, it is extremely hard to follow in that set out.

I was trying to use your numbers; I guess I'll stick straight to Qeltar's from now on :). Given your very close # to 400k per hour, perhaps my above equation can show why a cannon has a huge drawback - your only getting 2 XP per cannonball damage, vs 5.333 XP per whip hit; making our slayer XP rise slightly due to faster kills, but our overall XP drops quite significantly. This one is so close that I see no need to redo everything - that takes a bit of time, ya kno. If you wish to verify it yourself, simply replace the numbers here with my numbers for hellhounds. The same can be done wyverns\dagganoths; both of their numbers are so close to 400k that the huge XP reduction from cannon, as shown in my equation, will easily push them far over 400k. I will do kalphites, which have a much lower threshold, to prove my point.

You keep saying it is 2 experience per damage from a cannonball and 5.3 experience per damage from a Whip. You then try to argue that it will reduce your overall experience. Truthfully, yes and no. For a set amount of kills, the overall experience will be lower. As for per hour, the experience will be higher. It doesn't make your Slayer experience "rise slightly due to faster kills", it increases it by alot in this case. It gets an extra 18.72k Slayer experience per hour, a 114% increase in kills. I'd hardly call that a slight rise because you believe it isn't even possible to get that much experience per hour on average anyway, the use of a cannon adds that much to per hour, more then doubling the rate. Your Hellhound calculations was based on so many assumptions that it shows no proof to either side and to be honest, you wasted your time doing those ones like that.

While it may be less overall experience per task, you cannot deny that this task is done in less than half the time. In the same amount of time as without a cannon you would get more overall experience so that factor doesn't matter here. You can't even do the calculations of how much damage is done by cannon and how much by melee without testing either. I can even use the calculations you did on Kalphites to show you are wrong.

First of all, your numbers are off - you are using Qeltar's raw numbers with neither slayer helm nor +10% strength factored in; once those are adjusted by 15%, making for 187 kills per hour, curiously not much higher then his rates with just black mask, we can do this more accurately.

320 kills/hour melee w\ cannon

1530 cannonballs lost

Task of 187 completed in 35 minutes & 893 cannonballs (171,456)

25 minutes to earn back 171,456

Requires 411k per hour to make it worth it.

For a start this is wrong. These two methods cannot be compared, and put simply you are an idiot if you think they can be. Doing it like this you are comparing a Slayer Helm and the use of Prayer to having neither of thoses bonuses and a cannon. It does not show whether or not a cannon is worth using. The only way you could do that is for the kills with cannon, you also increased with the use of a Slayer Helm and Prayer. That makes the only difference in speed the cannon, and you can determine how much faster the task becomes due to the cannon. You didn't factor in the money saved on supplies either. It is about 8,126 saved on supplies if it takes 35 minutes with a cannon.

I don't even need to point out that you will be getting 55% XP from melee\45% from cannon, out of the original 16,830 damage, for 49,367 XP from melee and 15,147 XP from cannon, for a total of 64,514 XP from the task, vs. 89.8k XP from melee alone - a loss of 30% of our XP, making our earning rate required for breakthrough shoot much higher. And yes, that is taking into account the XP from the cannon, which you've been talking about so much :wall:

So you say because you used a cannon, you will now only get 64.5k experience instead of 89.8k correct? That 64.5k experience was gained in only 35 minutes compared to 60 though. Thst means in an hour you get 110.6k experience at that rate. So it is a loss of 23% of the experience due to no cannon. So that drops the earning rate required. I mentioned this before, yes it is less overall experience for a set amount of kills. For a set time however, the amount of experience is higher. So the extra time saved allows you to increase the experience earned by an even greater deal of time. The point is, for the same amount of time spent on Slayer, your experience rate is alot higher with a cannon.

Easy, he didn't put my numbers (easily skipped, but given the lack of information in his post, I would tend to think he glossed over the first post, then scanned the last page and posted). I could just as easily say I get much lower numbers; Inushkant even admitted that '65k per hour from slayer seemed rather high' (almost exact words, I'm not wading back through 9 pages of replys to find it).

So because he didn't numbers in his post means he didn't read yours? I believe the rate is actually higher than 65k, I only brought it down to 65k to appease you.

My numbers of 60k contradict his 70k; however, mine have been obtained by careful, documented testing, and Qeltar's rates. His vague description leaves much to doubt - such as that he might be getting 15% lower XP. Do you realize how little attention most RS players pay to XP and profit rates? I've head level 90s talk about how they average 400k per hour because of all the half keys they get. Admittedly, cardj is a high slayer level - almost the same as Qeltars, with slightly higher slayer\lower combat stats. Not that it matters.

That is the point though. Your numbers don't necessarily contradict. That is simply what he gets, you get less. As I have poitned out many times, Qeltars rates were not on Slayer or using prayer and his many disadvantages. You "adjusted" rates might be correct for you, but that is the point, that is for you. Other players are able to get higher. Just because you cannot doesn't mean that nobody can. Also, just because "most RS players" don't pay attnetion according to you, that doesn't mean all do. Who's to say he doesn't record every bit of experience he gains? Who's to say he doesn't pay any attention at all? We can't make those assumptions.

You can't estimate opinion; you can get the payoff of Slaying or not, but you can't determine if it's worth it or not.

Technically speaking, Slayer xp is invaluable for a player considering maxing.

Glad to see that someone understands what I was talking about earlier with the value of experience.

highlanders · October 31, 2008

Instead of arguing over slayer exp...

Explain what's the point of having slayer exp to begin with?

D Jay99 · October 31, 2008

Instead of arguing over slayer exp...

Explain what's the point of having slayer exp to begin with?

Same as why you would train wc/mining/hunter/fishing/herblore/smithing/fm/cooking/etc. Yes.

compfreak847 · October 31, 2008

Could you point out where qeltar's 'methods' are less efficient? Obviously there are small things, such as picking up drops without losing much time etc, but any high level player should have mastered those - especailly Qeltar, whos rates I myself match almost perfectly at 100% concentration. The 'adjustments' have proven to work nicely, both mathmatically and in limited testing. All we really ahve from zarfot is vauge number ranges for melee XP, generally with varying equipment, and slayer XP that includes the use of cannon (not worth it with introduction of avansies, current cannonball prices, and our lower earning rates).

I have already pointed out out why several times. At Abberant Spectres when he uses the cannon, his main weapon is a SGS. That is slower than a Whip+Defender and would have increased the number of kills per hour (therefore also making a cannon even more worth using on them also). While it wouldn't add a significant bonus in the short term, better equipment would save time in the long term. On Gargoyles he doesn't use a Crush weapon, Saradomin Sword and a Godsword is faster than a Whip. At Mithril Dragons he wears Infinity boots while wearing Verac's armour. Since he would either be praying Melee, in which case he shouldn't even be wearing Verac's armour due to the Mage attack, or he could be praying Magic, in which case the additional Magic defence is irrelevant.

Also note he doesn't use a DFS, this falls under the equipment section. He also often wears a ROW, this has no bearing on kill rate, and a Berserker Ring is better. In some cases, he kills monsters in the Slayer Tower or another place when there is amuch better option to kill them elsewhere. Like with Nechryaels, in the Chaos Tunnels it is mutlicombat and the spawns are close together, same as with Dust Devils. For Spiritual Mages it is better to wear a Zamorak Robe Bottom, that way you lose no extra attack bonuses for only 1 less prayer bonus. At Suqahs he wears Karils and Verac Helm, taking damage from both the Mage and Melee at higher rates. Best way is to wear melee Defence and use protect from magic prayer. At Warped Terrorbirds using range protect is very helpful. At Waterfiends you mention that you average about 100 crimsons per hour, that is over 100 kills, about 125 or so. Qeltar doesn;t even get 100 kills per hour, so that must mean he isn't being as efficient as he could be. There is many more, but those are some good examples of why he isn't going as good as he could be. I use a ROW, unless I'm testing anyway. Defender is better then dfs for virtually any melee. Dust devils and nechs would have small effect on slayer XP. Spirit mages are virtually unchanged. Not sure about warped terrorbirds, but since we're using XP rates and not food\pot consumption, it really shouldn't change much. His numbers for waterfiends are without piety or void, explaining why he gets 95 kills per hour to my 110.

Without a time reference, profit rates cannot be determined - if it took you 20 hours to achive those 1.5m in drops, that really doesn't mean anything. Nechs are only furthering my point; a 1 hour task giving a 60k pair of rune boots plus other drops making up for prayer pots aren't going to get you 150k per hour. Spirit mages are a good example; they represent the fastest possible money earning rates with Slayer, even suppassing abyssal demons. All those drops do add up; but they do so fairly slowly, rendering my number of 75k fairly accurate. Generally speaking, I've averaged much less then that in my last 70 tasks, but I don't have hard numbers for each task.

So you say the average is 75k from tasks due to drops and such. In that case it is actually at least 57k higher than that. You must also remember that you receive on average 24 points for finishing every task. Those 24 points are worth just over 57k. Since nearly every task takes under an hour to complete, you will get at the very least an extra 60k. That is 135k. Zarfot has a log of the amount of different tasks he received for 5.4m experince after getting to 26.8mil. Assuming he continued to average 26k experience (which is more than likely, as with his methods involving a Steel Titan he has gotten even faster), it would have taken about 207.7 hours. He completed 297 tasks in the time. That is one task every 42 minutes. That means on average due to buying those packs of runes he got an additional 81.6k per hour on top of whatever drops he may have received. This is why your rate of 50k profit per hour was always perceived as too low. I mentioned this during my first few posts on this thread I believe also. The points do help for another 60k, a very good point. I've already talked about Zarfot's rates.

I'm sorry, but your argument really isn't making sense. Assuming your attack and strength are equal, if you hit 0 your strength bonus isn't going to do anything. You can't argue that, right? If you hit, your attack bonus is going to be doing nothing. Right? The only overlap is the 7.5% of the time when you would have hit 0 but the attack bonus causes you to hit, bringing both attack and strength into play - but on the average 90% hit task, that only occurs 10/7.5 = 1.3% of the hits, being bosted by both 7.5% from strength and 7.5% from attack, bringing our average to around 7.7%, depending on the task.

Without testing no average can be achieved. You can't mathematically show how much of an effect it will have because we don't know how much of an effect everything else has in the first place. The purpose of what I was saying was to show it from a different perspective. Your Strength only ever comes into play when you hit, therefore the extra bonus is always coming into play when you hit. I'm just to leave this now because I know it cannot be gotten mathematically with what we know and it will have to be tested. You can, quite easily. You apparently aren't realizing this. If you hit 0, your strength is doing nothing. Simple enough? If you hit a red number, your attack is doing nothing. It's quite simple, really - it's not any sort of complex mathematics; it's common sense.

You are welcome to test it; document it carefully, as I have detailed, and your results should be fairly reliable. I can run tests with DH myself, although I'd rather not try and get them as a slayer task. Remember, detail everything in a screenshot, and use at least 1 hour worth of testing for each method; more would be preferable.

They don't need to be on a Slayer task. As I said which you then argued the same point is that if on Slayer or not has no bearing on the cannon. On a cannon, true, but not on our melee numbers, which we will be testing along with cannon.

Why would dust devils be a better monster then zombies? My hit rate is at least 95%, higher then yours; I am in combat as much or more as you, my hits are significantly higher, and I'm still getting 5% less XP.

You really need to stop pushing this. All the tiny things you keep mentioning simply do not provide enough of a benefit for them to be better. There is little room for error at Monkies and you cannot increase it any more. However, at Dust Devils there is room for errors which I do make and yet I get slightly more experience. So i'm not even getting the most amount of experience possible as it is. Also your hits aren't "significantly" higher than mine, your extra Strength levels with piety and the equipment you described hits one higher than me. Though at the same Strength level with the equipment you described the max hit is the same. Bad example. You are being less efficient; therefore you are not hitting as much, and on a mosnter with a lower hit rate and a lower max. Not that max hit is accurate; without knowing the rounding behind the scenes, it doesn't tell us much.

The next couple of sections are just full of errors and assumptions.

A cannon is a bad idea for black demons. You lose out on many crimsons per hour, and because you are not attacking, your kill rate isn't that much higher - melee will get you 61.5k XP per hour on demons in chaos tunnels. Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used), at 192 GP per cannonball that's a cost of 518k per hour. Now here's the kicker - at 12 damage on average per cannonball (24k XP per 1k), that's only 32.4k damage per hour, vs melee's 15.375,earning you 17.025k more XP per hour - increasing kill speed by 2.1x, or 28.5 minutes to get 1 hours worth of melee kills. That leaves you with 31.5 minutes to make up the 246k, requiring an earning rate of 468k per hour to break even, not including charms. I'll try again with hellhounds. 2.3k cannonballs, plus 58.4k melee XP per hour is 27.6 + 14.6 = 42.2k damage per hour, vs 14.6 from melee, at a cost of 441.6k per hour. You are spending 20.8 minutes vs. the 60 required for melee, at a cost of 153k per hour. This leaves us with 39.2 minutes to make up the 153k, at a rate of 234k per hour, lower then our estimated limits; however, that does not count the fact that cannon XP is less then standard melee XP. At our 400k per hour earning rate, we take 23 minutes to earn back the 153k, adding up with cannon for 43.8 minutes total and a savings of 27% of our time, increasing our slayer XP by 27%, from 14,616 to 18,562 slayer XP - a gain of 4k; so far so good.

The thing is, you are comparing range+cannon the melee. If it was just a comparison of range to range+cannon at Taverly you find the cannon makes it more efficient. "Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used)" When did I ever say that? I've never given an amount of cannonballs used per hour for Black Demons, that is another made up number based on no testing or anything. Just so you know, meleeing in the Chaos Tunnels is over 80k on Slayer, and Ranging in taverly is about 35k Slayer experience per hour, it results in over 100k Range experience per hour when done correctly. Would you mind explaining what your 'correct' cannnonball number per hour is? That way I can get accurate results, as opposed to your assumed ones (which could be accurate; but without evidence, it cannot be determined).

However, we are not looking at the behind-the-scenes XP. Because our cannon is killing 66% of the hellhounds to melee's 34%, the charm reduction is approxamatly 33%, reducing our Summoning XP from 10,447 to 6965, a loss of 3482 vs. the gain of 15.8k XP from earning back money at Avansies - roughly canceling each other out; 99 range is 48m and 59 hours, vs. summoning's 240m and 237 hours, the lost time being worth an additional 70m for a 1\6 ratio of Range XP to Summoning XP, making our lost summoning XP from unused charms actually worth more then our gained range XP from Avansies. This leaves us with our other arguments; because 66% of our 14,616 damage is going to the cannon, that's 19,293 combat XP from the cannon and 26,503 XP from melee, including HP, for a total of 45,796 XP - vs our original 77,951 combat XP for 1 hour. Including slayer XP creates totals of:

60,412 from the task in 43.8 minutes with cannon.

92,567 from the task in 60 minutes without cannon; all other factors, including money, standardized.

If you cannon did kill 66% of the Hellhounds and melee did 34% of the kills (which makes no sense at all as using melee means cannon can only hit one target), how does that change into a 33% reduction in charms. Increased number of kills results in more charms, not less. It is like saying at Fire Giants because I used a cannon it increased the number of kills by 50% but I got 50% less charms than normal. Summoning also does not cost 240m, it only costs 80m. That is a common misconception. The skill itself uses up very little time to train also, approximately 13 hours to get from 1-99 Summoning using only crimsons (2800 per hour with a Kyatt). It is also possible to say that if you train Slayer, getting the charms for Summoning takes up no time. You are there to get Slayer experience, the charms are a bonus at no additional time. A major flaw in your calculations here is you have assumed that you get the same kills per hour with cannon as without. SDummoning would take 240m at the most efficient training method; if I tried to calculate it using any method besides waterfiends or dust devils, the cost would be much higher. 33% reduction is because your missing 1/2 the charms from the monsters the cannon kills - the charms on the other level.

We are losing out on 35% of our total XP to save 27% of our time; all factors such as money and XP from avansies accounted for. No, cannon is not worth it. Phewph, that was a painful equation, but I made it as simple and easy to follow as possible. I don't have exact numbers for Nechs, but from guides and posts I've read, chins are nowhere close to being worth it for them. Obviously I can't show any exact numbers... *points to slayer level* :P

There was too many assumptions, made up numbers and errors here to even begin to think this shows proof one way or the other. Next try you try to do this, make it easier to read. Don't have it in practically one giant paragraph, it is extremely hard to follow in that set out. Hard to follow? Possibly. Made up numbers and errors? No. Feel free to try and point out your 'correct' version of numbers.

I was trying to use your numbers; I guess I'll stick straight to Qeltar's from now on :). Given your very close # to 400k per hour, perhaps my above equation can show why a cannon has a huge drawback - your only getting 2 XP per cannonball damage, vs 5.333 XP per whip hit; making our slayer XP rise slightly due to faster kills, but our overall XP drops quite significantly. This one is so close that I see no need to redo everything - that takes a bit of time, ya kno. If you wish to verify it yourself, simply replace the numbers here with my numbers for hellhounds. The same can be done wyverns\dagganoths; both of their numbers are so close to 400k that the huge XP reduction from cannon, as shown in my equation, will easily push them far over 400k. I will do kalphites, which have a much lower threshold, to prove my point.

You keep saying it is 2 experience per damage from a cannonball and 5.3 experience per damage from a Whip. You then try to argue that it will reduce your overall experience. Truthfully, yes and no. For a set amount of kills, the overall experience will be lower. As for per hour, the experience will be higher. It doesn't make your Slayer experience "rise slightly due to faster kills", it increases it by alot in this case. It gets an extra 18.72k Slayer experience per hour, a 114% increase in kills. I'd hardly call that a slight rise because you believe it isn't even possible to get that much experience per hour on average anyway, the use of a cannon adds that much to per hour, more then doubling the rate. Your Hellhound calculations was based on so many assumptions that it shows no proof to either side and to be honest, you wasted your time doing those ones like that. I haven't seen any numbers of yours plugged into real calculations.

First of all, your numbers are off - you are using Qeltar's raw numbers with neither slayer helm nor +10% strength factored in; once those are adjusted by 15%, making for 187 kills per hour, curiously not much higher then his rates with just black mask, we can do this more accurately.

320 kills/hour melee w\ cannon

1530 cannonballs lost

Task of 187 completed in 35 minutes & 893 cannonballs (171,456)

25 minutes to earn back 171,456

Requires 411k per hour to make it worth it.

For a start this is wrong. These two methods cannot be compared, and put simply you are an idiot if you think they can be. Doing it like this you are comparing a Slayer Helm and the use of Prayer to having neither of thoses bonuses and a cannon. It does not show whether or not a cannon is worth using. The only way you could do that is for the kills with cannon, you also increased with the use of a Slayer Helm and Prayer. That makes the only difference in speed the cannon, and you can determine how much faster the task becomes due to the cannon. You didn't factor in the money saved on supplies either. It is about 8,126 saved on supplies if it takes 35 minutes with a cannon. They can be compared. The melee XP is 50% of the total, so they would have half the effect on speed, and a cannon slows '2.5 minutes per 60 minutes', roughly 5%. The 8,126 makes for 403k per hour break even point.

I don't even need to point out that you will be getting 55% XP from melee\45% from cannon, out of the original 16,830 damage, for 49,367 XP from melee and 15,147 XP from cannon, for a total of 64,514 XP from the task, vs. 89.8k XP from melee alone - a loss of 30% of our XP, making our earning rate required for breakthrough shoot much higher. And yes, that is taking into account the XP from the cannon, which you've been talking about so much :wall:

So you say because you used a cannon, you will now only get 64.5k experience instead of 89.8k correct? That 64.5k experience was gained in only 35 minutes compared to 60 though. Thst means in an hour you get 110.6k experience at that rate. So it is a loss of 23% of the experience due to no cannon. So that drops the earning rate required. I mentioned this before, yes it is less overall experience for a set amount of kills. For a set time however, the amount of experience is higher. So the extra time saved allows you to increase the experience earned by an even greater deal of time. The point is, for the same amount of time spent on Slayer, your experience rate is alot higher with a cannon. Your pointing out the factors I included in my calculations, then drawing incorrect numbers from them. Take a look at my calcs, showing the correct ones, please.

Easy, he didn't put my numbers (easily skipped, but given the lack of information in his post, I would tend to think he glossed over the first post, then scanned the last page and posted). I could just as easily say I get much lower numbers; Inushkant even admitted that '65k per hour from slayer seemed rather high' (almost exact words, I'm not wading back through 9 pages of replys to find it).

So because he didn't numbers in his post means he didn't read yours? I believe the rate is actually higher than 65k, I only brought it down to 65k to appease you. Yes, it does; I specificaly requested that people put them in to prove they read the post. And the chances that he read through all of the replys are rather slim. And 60-65k is only for 100% attention; at my levels, it's 59.7k.

My numbers of 60k contradict his 70k; however, mine have been obtained by careful, documented testing, and Qeltar's rates. His vague description leaves much to doubt - such as that he might be getting 15% lower XP. Do you realize how little attention most RS players pay to XP and profit rates? I've head level 90s talk about how they average 400k per hour because of all the half keys they get. Admittedly, cardj is a high slayer level - almost the same as Qeltars, with slightly higher slayer\lower combat stats. Not that it matters.

That is the point though. Your numbers don't necessarily contradict. That is simply what he gets, you get less. As I have poitned out many times, Qeltars rates were not on Slayer or using prayer and his many disadvantages. You "adjusted" rates might be correct for you, but that is the point, that is for you. Other players are able to get higher. Just because you cannot doesn't mean that nobody can. Also, just because "most RS players" don't pay attnetion according to you, that doesn't mean all do. Who's to say he doesn't record every bit of experience he gains? Who's to say he doesn't pay any attention at all? We can't make those assumptions. We can't, but common sense prevails in this situation.

You can't estimate opinion; you can get the payoff of Slaying or not, but you can't determine if it's worth it or not.

Technically speaking, Slayer xp is invaluable for a player considering maxing.

Glad to see that someone understands what I was talking about earlier with the value of experience. How many people are planning on maxing out, honestly? Given that out of well over a million members a total of 83 members have maxed out, that doesn't really apply to the majority of is - I know I will never come close to maxing out; I don't have that kind of commitment to Rune. In terms of total levels, slayer would probably be the last skill to max out in terms of fastest levels.

highlanders wrote:

Instead of arguing over slayer exp...

Explain what's the point of having slayer exp to begin with?

Same as why you would train wc/mining/hunter/fishing/herblore/smithing/fm/cooking/etc. Yes.

Total levels, which no one besides you looks at. Or fun. That's about it. But is it worth the sacrifice to train it? If you enjoy the skill and have maxed out almost every other skill, then it might be.

ydrasil · October 31, 2008

I use a ROW, unless I'm testing anyway. Defender is better then dfs for virtually any melee. Dust devils and nechs would have small effect on slayer XP. Spirit mages are virtually unchanged. Not sure about warped terrorbirds, but since we're using XP rates and not food\pot consumption, it really shouldn't change much. His numbers for waterfiends are without piety or void, explaining why he gets 95 kills per hour to my 110.

I brought up the ROW as with the Berserker Ring, or even the Warrior, you would get a slightly higher rate per hour. A ROW doesn't affect that but it does have an effect on the profit per hour. I brought up the DFS for tasks where you have to kill Dragons. Baby Black Dragons, while they do not have a firebreath attack, the Green Dragon in the vicinity does. For Mithril Dragons, the extra +7 Strength bonus helps and the Defence bonuses are invaluable. Whether you decide to use protect from melee or magic, this shield will provied better Defences in either aspect. Also at Skeletal Wyverns, not only is the Strength bonus helpful but also the Defence bonuses. I do not use any protect prayers at Wyverns even though both Qeltar and Zarfot do. Piety here combined with the Defences also me to comlpete the task in one trip depending on its size.

The multicombat at Nechryaels and Dust Devils provides more of a bonus than you think. You do not need to wait until the one you are attacking is dead for you to move on the next. Like you mentioned before, if you think it is dead and run off to the next. In the Slayer Tower you would lose time, in the Chaos Tunnels you do not. Same principle as with Dust Devils. At Dust Devils when on Slayer I do not use piety or void and I get 100 crimsons per hour, which is about 110 with gold, green and blue calculated in. So unless the Slayer helm and +10% Strength prayer increases the kill rate by 33% (125 compared to 94, 94 was for the same weapon), which could be the case, but if it isn't, then he simply isn't going as well as he could be. This applies to every other task really where he isn't going as well as can be done.

On a cannon, true, but not on our melee numbers, which we will be testing along with cannon.

Yes you will also note how much melee experience you get. The point is you do not need to have it on a Slayer task. Wear the same equipment in both cases, but on one test use a cannon. That is all that is required.

Would you mind explaining what your 'correct' cannnonball number per hour is? That way I can get accurate results, as opposed to your assumed ones (which could be accurate; but without evidence, it cannot be determined).

Huh? Did I not mention I haven't tested how many cannonballs are used per hour? Also, what were my "assume ones"? When I said 80k in Chaos Tunnels and 100k with Range? Those were not made up. I get just a bit over 80k melee experience on average in the Chaos Tunnels while on Slayer. I got the the rate via Range in Taverly Dungeon from Zarfot's guide.

SDummoning would take 240m at the most efficient training method; if I tried to calculate it using any method besides waterfiends or dust devils, the cost would be much higher. 33% reduction is because your missing 1/2 the charms from the monsters the cannon kills - the charms on the other level.

No it does not. Did I not just actually mention this before? The supplies used to actually train Summoning costs about 80mil from 1-99. The time it takes to train the kill that much is less than 13 hours. Any extra cost you are adding is due to how you are collecting charms. If you are training Slayer, then you are training Slayer, the charms are bonus drops that add no time to you training Slayer. Therefore you are essentially getting them using up no time yourself in this case. The amount of 33% was an assumption.

Hard to follow? Possibly. Made up numbers and errors? No. Feel free to try and point out your 'correct' version of numbers.

Made up numbers and errors? Yes. Why do you now persist in lying about it too? Using 2.7k cannonballs per hour at Black Demons, and where did that number come from? You said I mentioned it, even looking through what I said, I see no mention of anything relating to the amount used per hour. The same with 2.3k at Hellhounds. The amount of damage dealt by cannon and by yourself? You made those up too. So now we even have furthur evidence of you making up numbers. I cannot do the calculations at the moment as I have not tested them. I've not been on Runescape in ages as a matter of fact, i've been to busy with school lately to use up too much time playing Runescape.

I haven't seen any numbers of yours plugged into real calculations.

Real calculations? Like the made up ones with Black Demons and Hellhounds you just did? I'd hardly call those "real". I have through and shown the cannon is worth it so many times, it is not my fault that you are unable to comprehend that. The method of showing it was very clear and easily set out for you to follow.

They can be compared. The melee XP is 50% of the total, so they would have half the effect on speed, and a cannon slows '2.5 minutes per 60 minutes', roughly 5%. The 8,126 makes for 403k per hour break even point.

The fact that you think the can be compared means you have no idea how to do this. Who says the melee experience is 50% of the total? Have you actually tested this? Do you actually know this? Or did you make this number up too? They cannot be compared. You are purposely skewing the results to without a cannon, so how is that a fair test? You give it alot of additional bonuses, but only to the test without a cannon. It is like getting two level 138's to fight (or any levels for that matter), but one of them can't use any armour or weapons. How is that a fair fight?

If you want to use the Slayer Helm and prayer, you also have to use it on the test with a cannon. Otherwise, simply do not use it for either. Amazingly, I have already done the calculations without using the Slayer Helm or prayer on either and shown Kalphites to be more efficient with a cannon.

Yes, it does; I specificaly requested that people put them in to prove they read the post. And the chances that he read through all of the replys are rather slim. And 60-65k is only for 100% attention; at my levels, it's 59.7k.

Maybe they forgot? There has been one person that has asked what 287 meant and then remember it was to show if you had read that section. Why would he need to read every single reply? If he had read every single one and then posted exactly the same thing, would you believe him then? You may get at your levels 59.7k, I cannot argue that. At my levels I get over 65k. I also average over 20k Slayer experience per hour, you can only get 14.9k. Just because you cannot, that does not mean that nobody can. I do not even pay 100% attention either, there is no such thing as 100% attention.

How many people are planning on maxing out, honestly? Given that out of well over a million members a total of 83 members have maxed out, that doesn't really apply to the majority of is - I know I will never come close to maxing out; I don't have that kind of commitment to Rune. In terms of total levels, slayer would probably be the last skill to max out in terms of fastest levels.

It isn't simply a matter of maxing out. Total levels and experience are used at evey level, not just at 2376 total. As for saying only 83 Players have maxed out, you have to remember that it takes a long time to do that. Everyone puts a different amount of effort into reaching those goals.

Total levels, which no one besides you looks at. Or fun. That's about it. But is it worth the sacrifice to train it? If you enjoy the skill and have maxed out almost every other skill, then it might be.

Total levels are shown in highscores, so yes other people can look at it. There is no sacrifice to train it, unless they are training at your rate. I personally feel that if you can only get that much experience from Slayer at that level, everythin else you are getting is also very questionable.

Tell me, what is the point in training Woodcutting or Firemaking? Woodcutting can't be for money, there are better ways to make money elsewhere. Firemaking can't be for money either. There is no point in getting money via Aviansies or Godwars either. You can merchant for money and that requires no levels. Total levels and experience possibly? You've inferred that you believe them to be useless. So it comes down to fun. Every single skill in this game has no purpose what so ever except fun. You should not argue about a person's choice to train a skill.

compfreak847 · October 31, 2008

I use a ROW, unless I'm testing anyway. Defender is better then dfs for virtually any melee. Dust devils and nechs would have small effect on slayer XP. Spirit mages are virtually unchanged. Not sure about warped terrorbirds, but since we're using XP rates and not food\pot consumption, it really shouldn't change much. His numbers for waterfiends are without piety or void, explaining why he gets 95 kills per hour to my 110.

I brought up the ROW as with the Berserker Ring, or even the Warrior, you would get a slightly higher rate per hour. A ROW doesn't affect that but it does have an effect on the profit per hour. I brought up the DFS for tasks where you have to kill Dragons. Baby Black Dragons, while they do not have a firebreath attack, the Green Dragon in the vicinity does. For Mithril Dragons, the extra +7 Strength bonus helps and the Defence bonuses are invaluable. Whether you decide to use protect from melee or magic, this shield will provied better Defences in either aspect. Also at Skeletal Wyverns, not only is the Strength bonus helpful but also the Defence bonuses. I do not use any protect prayers at Wyverns even though both Qeltar and Zarfot do. Piety here combined with the Defences also me to comlpete the task in one trip depending on its size. It helps slightly (~3%) on baby blacks and somewhat at wyverns; however, I usually range mith drags - where it is semi-helpful but not any huge gain; even the +7 strength is at most a ~1% XP bonus, due to the 1/3 or lower hitting rates.

The multicombat at Nechryaels and Dust Devils provides more of a bonus than you think. You do not need to wait until the one you are attacking is dead for you to move on the next. Like you mentioned before, if you think it is dead and run off to the next. In the Slayer Tower you would lose time, in the Chaos Tunnels you do not. Same principle as with Dust Devils. At Dust Devils when on Slayer I do not use piety or void and I get 100 crimsons per hour, which is about 110 with gold, green and blue calculated in. So unless the Slayer helm and +10% Strength prayer increases the kill rate by 33% (125 compared to 94, 94 was for the same weapon), which could be the case, but if it isn't, then he simply isn't going as well as he could be. This applies to every other task really where he isn't going as well as can be done. Hold on. Last time you talked about waterfiends on slayer, you said you got 140 crimsons worth per hour - and piety has a much larger effect then slayer helm; yet I get 10% less crimsons per hour then you. And I've spent almost 50 hours at waterfiends - I'm very efficient there. And my 100 crimson rate with void\piety is perfectly comparable to his 94 rate at straight 99 melees.

On a cannon, true, but not on our melee numbers, which we will be testing along with cannon.

Yes you will also note how much melee experience you get. The point is you do not need to have it on a Slayer task. Wear the same equipment in both cases, but on one test use a cannon. That is all that is required. No, because you are getting over twice your melee XP from pure melee vs. cannon with melee, meaning that anything that boosts melee XP will affect your non cannon results much more.

Would you mind explaining what your 'correct' cannnonball number per hour is? That way I can get accurate results, as opposed to your assumed ones (which could be accurate; but without evidence, it cannot be determined).

Huh? Did I not mention I haven't tested how many cannonballs are used per hour? Also, what were my "assume ones"? When I said 80k in Chaos Tunnels and 100k with Range? Those were not made up. I get just a bit over 80k melee experience on average in the Chaos Tunnels while on Slayer. I got the the rate via Range in Taverly Dungeon from Zarfot's guide. No, but you did mention that Qeltar only used 1.2k c balls per hour (dagganoths), 2.4k c balls per hour (aberrant specters), 1.7k c balls per hour (bloodvields), and 1.5k per hour (kalphites), letting me use 2.7k as an above average number to avoid argument, as a lower number would only make cannon worse.

SDummoning would take 240m at the most efficient training method; if I tried to calculate it using any method besides waterfiends or dust devils, the cost would be much higher. 33% reduction is because your missing 1/2 the charms from the monsters the cannon kills - the charms on the other level.

No it does not. Did I not just actually mention this before? The supplies used to actually train Summoning costs about 80mil from 1-99. The time it takes to train the kill that much is less than 13 hours. Any extra cost you are adding is due to how you are collecting charms. If you are training Slayer, then you are training Slayer, the charms are bonus drops that add no time to you training Slayer. Therefore you are essentially getting them using up no time yourself in this case. The amount of 33% was an assumption. But you are comparing slayer charms to other, more efficient methods - the only fair comparison is to the most efficient methods of obtaining charms.

They can be compared. The melee XP is 50% of the total, so they would have half the effect on speed, and a cannon slows '2.5 minutes per 60 minutes', roughly 5%. The 8,126 makes for 403k per hour break even point.

The fact that you think the can be compared means you have no idea how to do this. Who says the melee experience is 50% of the total? Have you actually tested this? Do you actually know this? Or did you make this number up too? They cannot be compared. You are purposely skewing the results to without a cannon, so how is that a fair test? You give it alot of additional bonuses, but only to the test without a cannon. It is like getting two level 138's to fight (or any levels for that matter), but one of them can't use any armour or weapons. How is that a fair fight? They can be compared quite easily. We use qeltar's results for melee without cannon vs. his with cannon. You don't understand that this is quite easy to do. His melee rate isn't instantly going to jump when he uses cannon; if anything it will drop more then the time wasted. Therefore, it is very simple to deduce % melee and % cannon XP accurately.

Yes, it does; I specificaly requested that people put them in to prove they read the post. And the chances that he read through all of the replys are rather slim. And 60-65k is only for 100% attention; at my levels, it's 59.7k.

Maybe they forgot? There has been one person that has asked what 287 meant and then remember it was to show if you had read that section. Why would he need to read every single reply? If he had read every single one and then posted exactly the same thing, would you believe him then? You may get at your levels 59.7k, I cannot argue that. At my levels I get over 65k. I also average over 20k Slayer experience per hour, you can only get 14.9k. Just because you cannot, that does not mean that nobody can. I do not even pay 100% attention either, there is no such thing as 100% attention. Because he wouldn't know what our numbers were unless he had actually read; he might have glanced over our posts, found some spot where you or I was quoting a number for a specific task, not realizing that it wasn't a generalization. You use a cannon; proven to be inefficient. I work at better then 98% conentration, going very efficiently and wasting very little time. Therefore, your numbers simply cannot be that much higher - one of us is either mistaken or lying, and I've got screenshots to prove anything you want. Also note that Qeltar is the only one for whom we have detailed information for rates, instead of trying to extrapolate Zarfot's slayer rates without knowing the effects of cannons or prayers.

How many people are planning on maxing out, honestly? Given that out of well over a million members a total of 83 members have maxed out, that doesn't really apply to the majority of is - I know I will never come close to maxing out; I don't have that kind of commitment to Rune. In terms of total levels, slayer would probably be the last skill to max out in terms of fastest levels.

It isn't simply a matter of maxing out. Total levels and experience are used at evey level, not just at 2376 total. As for saying only 83 Players have maxed out, you have to remember that it takes a long time to do that. Everyone puts a different amount of effort into reaching those goals. If your going for total levels, there are far more skills that can be maxed out much more efficiently then training slayer at level 80 or 85; a point covered in my original post.

Total levels, which no one besides you looks at. Or fun. That's about it. But is it worth the sacrifice to train it? If you enjoy the skill and have maxed out almost every other skill, then it might be.

Total levels are shown in highscores, so yes other people can look at it. There is no sacrifice to train it, unless they are training at your rate. I personally feel that if you can only get that much experience from Slayer at that level, everythin else you are getting is also very questionable. How many people's total level do you look up and think 'wow, that person really is a high level! That extra 100 hours they spent getting their total level up 20 levels with slayer really makes me admire and like them'. For most players, there are much faster ways to level total then training slayer.

Tell me, what is the point in training Woodcutting or Firemaking? Woodcutting can't be for money, there are better ways to make money elsewhere. Firemaking can't be for money either. There is no point in getting money via Aviansies or Godwars either. You can merchant for money and that requires no levels. Total levels and experience possibly? You've inferred that you believe them to be useless. So it comes down to fun. Every single skill in this game has no purpose what so ever except fun. You should not argue about a person's choice to train a skill. Fun, total levels, XP, and faster money. And do you realzie how true your (assuming) sarcastic 2nd to last sentence is? I'll repeat it for emphasis, it's one of the truer quotes I've ever seen. Every single skill in this game has no purpose what so ever except fun.

sup3rpur · November 2, 2008

I know you already have implied you disagree with this but...slayer is more than 50k melee xp an hour averaged out. This is ESPECIALLY true when you hit 90 slayer, as around 10% of your tasks will be dark beasts, which are more xp an hour than zombie monkeys when done correctly. A good slayer with super sets and 10% str boost can average 17-20k melee xp an hour (more on the lower end of that if you get small tasks or tasks far away from a teleport).

I trained slayer for two months straight on basically a tight schedule, and those are the figures i came up with.

/agree on slayer being bad for money though...any true slayer who pietys makes very little money

compfreak847 · November 3, 2008

I know you already have implied you disagree with this but...slayer is more than 50k melee xp an hour averaged out. This is ESPECIALLY true when you hit 90 slayer, as around 10% of your tasks will be dark beasts, which are more xp an hour than zombie monkeys when done correctly. A good slayer with super sets and 10% str boost can average 17-20k melee xp an hour (more on the lower end of that if you get small tasks or tasks far away from a teleport).

I trained slayer for two months straight on basically a tight schedule, and those are the figures i came up with.

/agree on slayer being bad for money though...any true slayer who pietys makes very little money

See, piety is less efficient at the earning methods we're using, so we are limited to +10% strength, giving us an average of 60k melee XP at 100% attention.

Deathmath · November 3, 2008

I've yet to read this (entire 18 page thread) but the argument is well thought out, best htought out rant I've seen.

This is why I like to slay:

Free exp considering I don't have the self control to be efficient, can't stand the efficient methods that DO exist as mentioned.

It's sort of fun switching tasks

His argument still wins though, I agree entirely

compfreak847 · November 3, 2008

I've yet to read this (entire 18 page thread) but the argument is well thought out, best htought out rant I've seen.

This is why I like to slay:

Free exp considering I don't have the self control to be efficient, can't stand the efficient methods that DO exist as mentioned.

It's sort of fun switching tasks

His argument still wins though, I agree entirely

Good luck reading it. A lot of it is me and ydrasil going back and forth (I'm assuming he's either given up, away from a computer, or busy testing Bloodvields), and those posts were 4+ pages each - I copied one page from it into word and got 107 pages of text, most of it 'your numbers are wrong! no yours are!'. I'm not sure anyone could read through all of it in one sitting and maintain their sanity.

I've got the opposite problem with slayer; I don't have the self control to devote my attention to rune. I find myself checking email, switching to AIM, reading up on the latest election news, and eventually standing there until I log out. Zombies let me pay attention for ~10 seconds every couple of minutes, while getting far better XP and money then slayer will ever get me, plus nearly as many charms - many of them blue, very handy for geyser titans. 490k XP worth of charms more, and 92 summoning it is - wolpertinger, here we come!

Deathmath · November 3, 2008

Well, it's the whole making money thing. I need to get enough money for a nest egg of sorts and I can't afk, so I'm mindlessly wandering around wondering what to do to make money and sort of getting sidetracked with ranged...

I ought to just do zombie monkeys or dt skeles at some point and just get my melee goals, and then make cash and then buy iron knives for yaks. Then I'm in the clear and can truly claim that 'slayer sucks'

Right now I still am trying to have fun with slayer, but repetitive tasks (ex 6 ice warrior tasks and 5 earth warrior tasks) in a row.

So scratch the fun part, just variety.

Slayer Sucks

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