Help put an end to junk trading

[Carl]

You fail to realize the problem here. It isn't that junk traders are charging too much, it is that the ge charges too little. The real way to fix this problem is for Jagex to adjust the ge prices to what these rare items are actually worth.

 

 

 

What I've been saying but no-one's listening.

 

 

 

Simple way for Jagex to fix this is to adjust the prices.

 

 

 

Magzar,

 

 

 

The good old days are long since gone. They won't be returning so don't expect people to do things as they once used to be done. Junk trading, yes it doesn't wield and great profit if you don't make the item yourself, but it keeps said items out of the hands of people that can't afford the buffed up prices.

[magzar]

[hide=Quotation]

 

So you want everyone to be able to own full dragon and a part hat for 5gp? :wall: You obviously know nothing about scarcity-based economics.

 

 

 

And you obviously know nothing of the subject that's being talked about.

 

For the record, this entire thread involves scarcity-based economics inside Runescape.

 

But I was replying to this:

 

The way I see it, on the release of the G.E. Jagex set prices to what they saw as reasonable.This was their attempt to help those players who were not merchants be able to afford some of the better items in the game.

 

From this post and other posts on this thread I have inferred that Magzar believes that the better items in Runescape should belong to all players. Due to these items being inherently more desirable and with a limited supply, their prices rise. Magzar wants these prices to be low. I was pointing out the idiocy in this belief.

 

 

 

 

 

lrn2read

 

 

 

i never said i wanted the prices to be low

 

i want them to be less ridiculously priced

 

but the thread is really about junk trading

 

because no matter how much junk you throw in you're still trading that rare for the exact same damn price as if you didn't add the junk

 

you're just making people buy your useless [cabbage]

[/hide]

 

1. They're ridiculously priced by the laws of supply and demand.

 

2.Junk trading falls occurs inside Runescape which essentially a scarcity-based economy.

 

3.Then hasn't junk become a second currency?

 

 

 

 

 

your number 2 isn't a real sentence, the first half doesn't mean anything

 

as for number 3 no because it's unusable outside of junk trading

 

once you have it you can't do anything with it unless you have a rare to sell

 

and the junk is clogging the market

 

more and more junk is flooding in every day, and no one is getting rid of it because it's used in junk trading

 

let it keep up and everyone is going to end up with more junk than money, and absolutely nothing to do with it

 

 

 

and carl there's nothing good about trying to keep items out of peoples' hands

 

if we used the g.e. to start with and the prices rose then the items would be expensive, but available without the complication of gathering or otherwise acquiring junk

[Shuri]

[hide=Quotation]

 

So you want everyone to be able to own full dragon and a part hat for 5gp? :wall: You obviously know nothing about scarcity-based economics.

 

 

 

And you obviously know nothing of the subject that's being talked about.

 

For the record, this entire thread involves scarcity-based economics inside Runescape.

 

But I was replying to this:

 

The way I see it, on the release of the G.E. Jagex set prices to what they saw as reasonable.This was their attempt to help those players who were not merchants be able to afford some of the better items in the game.

 

From this post and other posts on this thread I have inferred that Magzar believes that the better items in Runescape should belong to all players. Due to these items being inherently more desirable and with a limited supply, their prices rise. Magzar wants these prices to be low. I was pointing out the idiocy in this belief.

 

 

 

 

 

lrn2read

 

 

 

i never said i wanted the prices to be low

 

i want them to be less ridiculously priced

 

but the thread is really about junk trading

 

because no matter how much junk you throw in you're still trading that rare for the exact same damn price as if you didn't add the junk

 

you're just making people buy your useless [cabbage]

[/hide]

 

1. They're ridiculously priced by the laws of supply and demand.

 

2.Junk trading occurs inside Runescape which essentially a scarcity-based economy. Therefore this thread is also about scarcity.

 

3.Then hasn't junk become a second currency?

 

 

 

 

 

your number 2 isn't a real sentence, the first half doesn't mean anything

 

as for number 3 no because it's unusable outside of junk trading

 

once you have it you can't do anything with it unless you have a rare to sell

 

and the junk is clogging the market

 

more and more junk is flooding in every day, and no one is getting rid of it because it's used in junk trading

 

let it keep up and everyone is going to end up with more junk than money, and absolutely nothing to do with it

 

 

 

and carl there's nothing good about trying to keep items out of peoples' hands

 

if we used the g.e. to start with and the prices rose then the items would be expensive, but available without the complication of gathering or otherwise acquiring junk

 

2. Thanks, I've fixed it now

 

3. This is called a fiat currency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Simple way for Jagex to fix this is to adjust the prices.

 

It's not that simple. Setting the prices artificially for items that have absolutely no use is more work than creating some sort of void to toss them into. This way, the items don't inflate to values that don't come close to reflecting its worth.

[magzar]

[hide=Quotation]

 

So you want everyone to be able to own full dragon and a part hat for 5gp? :wall: You obviously know nothing about scarcity-based economics.

 

 

 

And you obviously know nothing of the subject that's being talked about.

 

For the record, this entire thread involves scarcity-based economics inside Runescape.

 

But I was replying to this:

 

The way I see it, on the release of the G.E. Jagex set prices to what they saw as reasonable.This was their attempt to help those players who were not merchants be able to afford some of the better items in the game.

 

From this post and other posts on this thread I have inferred that Magzar believes that the better items in Runescape should belong to all players. Due to these items being inherently more desirable and with a limited supply, their prices rise. Magzar wants these prices to be low. I was pointing out the idiocy in this belief.

 

 

 

 

 

lrn2read

 

 

 

i never said i wanted the prices to be low

 

i want them to be less ridiculously priced

 

but the thread is really about junk trading

 

because no matter how much junk you throw in you're still trading that rare for the exact same damn price as if you didn't add the junk

 

you're just making people buy your useless [cabbage]

[/hide]

 

1. They're ridiculously priced by the laws of supply and demand.

 

2.Junk trading occurs inside Runescape which essentially a scarcity-based economy. Therefore this thread is also about scarcity.

 

3.Then hasn't junk become a second currency?

 

 

 

 

 

your number 2 isn't a real sentence, the first half doesn't mean anything

 

as for number 3 no because it's unusable outside of junk trading

 

once you have it you can't do anything with it unless you have a rare to sell

 

and the junk is clogging the market

 

more and more junk is flooding in every day, and no one is getting rid of it because it's used in junk trading

 

let it keep up and everyone is going to end up with more junk than money, and absolutely nothing to do with it

 

 

 

and carl there's nothing good about trying to keep items out of peoples' hands

 

if we used the g.e. to start with and the prices rose then the items would be expensive, but available without the complication of gathering or otherwise acquiring junk

 

2. Thanks, I've fixed it now

 

3. This is called a fiat currency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

 

 

 

read the article

 

fiat currency is a representative given a government guarantee of it's value in paying taxes

 

 

 

unless you're considering the increased price to be taxes and the players to be the government then junk is not fiat currency

[Shuri]

 

2. Thanks, I've fixed it now

 

3. This is called a fiat currency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

 

 

 

read the article

 

fiat currency is a representative given a government guarantee of it's value in paying taxes

 

 

 

unless you're considering the increased price to be taxes and the players to be the government then junk is not fiat currency

 

The G.E. serves as the guarantee here.

[acenator]

What never ceases to amaze me is this; YOU ARE STILL SELLING YOUR ITEMS FOR THE SAME PRICE!!!

 

You obviously don't understand how junk traders think. Junk is massivley overpriced on the GE due to these things called price floors and what I like to call dependencies (where one item's price is dependent on the price of another item (take a look at the price graphs of supper-poisoned addy arrows and super-poison. Notice anything?)). Because these restrictions keep the prices of items at levels where there is no demand for the item (and they are therefore unsellable), they have no value to junk traders. Until these floors/dependencies are removed (assuming Jagex will never remove player-to-player-trade), junk trading will always be possible.

 

 

 

Next, let's consider why people junk trade. If you had gotten d claws the first day they came out, would you have sold them on the GE for 150k when it is obvious that you could ask almost whatever price you wanted and get it? This is called supply and demand. The supply of d claws is extremely limited, but the demand is extremely high and they are therefore worth a lot.

 

 

 

The same principles apply to items that undergo rapid price changes. The GE price doesn't represent the supply and/or demand so people find a way to get what the supply and demand says they should get.

 

 

 

The way to fix this is to find the difference between the current street prices and the GE price and start closing the gap. Because junk trading has made many people start hoarding the item(s) in question due to their inability to junk trade, the supply and demand price (equilibrium) is really somewhere between the two prices. Because of this, the solution isn't just to change the GE rpice to the street price, but to move it closer and closer over a few days. Close the gap by 25% (meaning take the difernce between the prices, multiply it by .25 and add that on to the curent GE price) the first day. If the GE remains unused after a day or two, knock off another 10-15% and repeat this until the GE starts getting used again.

 

 

 

Also, to help prevent future problems, the GE should, when completed trades on the GE fail to update a price, the uncompleted ones should be used instead. Because of the fact that merchants are but a minor portion of the RS population, they would be unable to force prices to move against the will of all the other players with offers in the GE.

 

 

 

Also, I suggest you try to find and read some of the older junk trading threads on these forums. This topic has been discussed many times before and I'm not sure I want to start repeating myself any more than I already have (here are a few I went and found just now: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=776644&hilit=junk+trading, http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=768841&start=0&hilit=junk+trading, http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=745489&start=0&hilit=junk+trading (this one's the longest and most in-depth, I believe), http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=757333&start=0&hilit=junk+trading, http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=750242&start=0&hilit=junk+trading).

[Carl]

Simple way for Jagex to fix this is to adjust the prices.

 

It's not that simple. Setting the prices artificially for items that have absolutely no use is more work than creating some sort of void to toss them into. This way, the items don't inflate to values that don't come close to reflecting its worth.

 

 

 

I mean change the prices of items like Dragon claws so they meet there street price in the GE. If they do that, no more junk trading except when it comes to lending.

[bedman]

Simple way for Jagex to fix this is to adjust the prices.

 

It's not that simple. Setting the prices artificially for items that have absolutely no use is more work than creating some sort of void to toss them into. This way, the items don't inflate to values that don't come close to reflecting its worth.

 

 

 

I mean change the prices of items like Dragon claws so they meet there street price in the GE. If they do that, no more junk trading except when it comes to lending.

 

 

 

Nope...

 

 

 

The GE is just too slow to adjust, so as long as the mechanics of the GE arent fixed, junk trading will keep existing.

 

I would love them to fix some prices though. I'm just saying that that woldnt be a long term solution. Look at phats, afters months and months, they were traded for a few days, then a few days later, they were considered junk again. Look at masks. They meet their real value en poof, they plummet.

[la la la]

and like i said, rich players can take the hit without too much damage to their coin piles

 

No, just no. I hate it when people think that just because I have/had a partyhat, I can take an economic hit. It's money to me too, and I use it for exactly the same things you do.

[leoben]

I agree on your point that when you junk trade you still sell the actual items for the same price. However this logic is negated by one of thing : PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

 

 

 

They don't care that they are still selling the item for the same price. They want the ilusion that they are getting more money for what they are selling, even if it's just an ilusion. They think as junk as being items that aren't worth any money, so they see a trade as they giving away their rare (worth x) and junk (really worth y but to them being worth 0) for y+x. To them they traded the rare for x+y and the junk for nothing, since it is worth nothing (in their minds).

 

 

 

And to people takeing advantage of others, this is a game, morals have no value here. The goal of people here is to be better than the rest, otherwise, why grind for hours on skills?. Why merchant to get enormous amounts of money you will never use? Why buy expensive equipment when there's other things you can use that are both cheaper and more useful.

 

 

 

Also, because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are't intelligent. This may seem contradictory with my previous opinion that people are stupid, but there I was talking about humanity as a general, here I am talking about the people that made good points. If someone makes an intellingent argument then they are not stupid, but if someone makes a stupid argument over an over, it most likely means that they are stupid(I'm not calling you stupid here, you make some good points, I'm just explaining myself), wich is the case of most of humanity unfortanely.

[mister_moocky]

The value of any item is the highest ammount a player is willing to pay for it, regardless of what Jagex has to say, and players have every right to sell an item for what it's worth

[70kyews]

this isnt going to go too well

[Great_one]

junk trading is not scamming, it is freedom

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

junk trading is not scamming, it is freedom

 

Junk trading isn't freedom, either. You may think that you're escaping the barriers of trade, but all you're doing is running into the trap of yet another problem - mounds and mounds of junk replacing cash in everyday trade.

 

 

 

If you think it's freedom now, wait a few months down the road when your bank is full of useless crap.

[asianboy7o7]

junk trading is not scamming, it is freedom

 

Junk trading isn't freedom, either. You may think that you're escaping the barriers of trade, but all you're doing is running into the trap of yet another problem - mounds and mounds of junk replacing cash in everyday trade.

 

 

 

If you think it's freedom now, wait a few months down the road when your bank is full of useless crap.

 

 

 

then you lend your gs/dclaws and your junk less!

[magzar]

junk trading is not scamming, it is freedom

 

Junk trading isn't freedom, either. You may think that you're escaping the barriers of trade, but all you're doing is running into the trap of yet another problem - mounds and mounds of junk replacing cash in everyday trade.

 

 

 

If you think it's freedom now, wait a few months down the road when your bank is full of useless crap.

 

 

 

then you lend your gs/dclaws and your junk less!

 

 

 

 

 

how does that help precisely?

[Great_one]

junk trading is not scamming, it is freedom

 

Junk trading isn't freedom, either. You may think that you're escaping the barriers of trade, but all you're doing is running into the trap of yet another problem - mounds and mounds of junk replacing cash in everyday trade.

 

 

 

If you think it's freedom now, wait a few months down the road when your bank is full of useless crap.

 

 

 

then you lend your gs/dclaws and your junk less!

 

 

 

 

 

how does that help precisely?

 

less junk, more money, and time to train skills

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

junk trading is not scamming, it is freedom

 

Junk trading isn't freedom, either. You may think that you're escaping the barriers of trade, but all you're doing is running into the trap of yet another problem - mounds and mounds of junk replacing cash in everyday trade.

 

 

 

If you think it's freedom now, wait a few months down the road when your bank is full of useless crap.

 

 

 

then you lend your gs/dclaws and your junk less!

 

I don't lend things out for cash. I usually do it while I'm sleeping anyway, so 8-10 hours isn't a big deal.

[das1330]

Junk trading is the market's response to a fundamentally broken system. Much like the things people did to circumvent price controls in communist countries in past years, as long as the problem exists (a economic system that does not respond to market forces) people will continue to circumvent the system. While your idea is good in theory, it will never work practically.

[magzar]

Junk trading is the market's response to a fundamentally broken system. Much like the things people did to circumvent price controls in communist countries in past years, as long as the problem exists (a economic system that does not respond to market forces) people will continue to circumvent the system. While your idea is good in theory, it will never work practically.

 

 

 

 

 

The system is not broken. It is stalled because no one uses it, thereby making it appear to be broken. Price can not fluctuate by incomplete offers. It doesn't do that in the real world, and it would make it extremely easy to manipulate prices in Runescape.(welcome back yew bots putting in offers that won't be completed to shift the prices)

 

The only solution to the problem is a joint effort to get people to stop using junk and to start using the G.E.

 

 

 

My biggest reasoning behind this is still the fact that, though junk is being used as a halfass secondary form of currency, the fact that it has no value outside of junk trading lends to the fact that it is indeed worthless. Due to this you are still selling your rare items for the exact same prices you would on the G.E.

 

 

 

It's a shoddy economic practice and in reality you do not lose money by using the G.E. you simply factor out the junk aspect. Keep your useless junk and sell it to general stores, or even the specialty stores around runescape which give you a better price for these items than general stores themselves do.

 

 

 

With junk gone players would be forced to realize that though through junk trading they are granting themselves the illusion of gaining higher prices for the items they sell, they are not increasing their net worth. A rare worth 15m sold with 85m worth of junk is not getting you 100m for the rare, you're simply selling the rare for its 15m market price and also swapping out your 85m in junk for coins, quite possibly the coins you already spent to get that 85m in junk in the first place.

 

 

 

I can not possibly be clearer than this: JUNK TRADING DOES NOT MAKE A RARE ITEM SELL FOR MORE!!!

 

The best thing to do it to liquidate your junk for as much as you can and begin trading rares at their market price which is already being done anyway. The only difference whatsoever is the removal of all that junk. (what did players do with their junk before the trade limits/G.E.? They liquidated it to the best of their abilities) Even though Jagex may not have set prices to the liking of players junk trading isn't getting around anything, it's just annoying.

 

 

 

On top of this removing junk would allow everyone to use fairly uniform price statistics if they choose to merchant, the exact way they do with less expensive items. You watch the fluctuations of prices and buy or sell when you think you have the highest potential for profit.

 

 

 

EDIT: before anyone says something about players setting their own prices and that a 5% change either way isn't enough, take an item worth 100m g.e. value, 5% of 100m is still 5m. If you manage to buy for minimum, and sell for maximum that's a 10m profit. 10% profit isn't bad in any light. In addition to this buy buying and selling through the g.e. prices would fluctuate enough so that the potential for actual gain becomes much much higher than it could ever be for trading higher amounts of junk.

 

 

 

Removing junk trading is really a win win situation for everyone involved when looked at from a logical and economically sound standpoint.

[Madmanpur3]

I'm not gonna lie...this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever seen and you guys are way overthinking this.

 

 

 

The solution is very, very simple...make the GE update prices based on OFFERS. Only offers to buy above market price and offers to sell below market price affect it - that way there is no easy manipulation with offering to sell above and buy below. On top of this, they should put in place an auto sell option on the ge that's 10-15% below the market price...

 

 

 

Edit - Discontinued items (possibly some of the extremely rare non-discontinued items too) are an exception when it comes to adjusting the price based on buying offers above market price.

[magzar]

I'm not gonna lie...this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever seen and you guys are way overthinking this.

 

 

 

The solution is very, very simple...make the GE update prices based on OFFERS. Only offers to buy above market price and offers to sell below market price affect it - that way there is no easy manipulation with offering to sell above and buy below. On top of this, they should put in place an auto sell option on the ge that's 10-15% below the market price...

 

 

 

Edit - Discontinued items (possibly some of the extremely rare non-discontinued items too) are an exception when it comes to adjusting the price based on buying offers above market price.

 

 

 

 

 

that wouldn't work

 

if merchers make 100000 bots put in max price offers at the same time and this updates the G.E. then prices would skyrocket to the obscene, we would be seeing rare items cost billions

 

 

 

I do like the auto sell, but that's basically just how selling to general stores work, if general stores bought items at a flat rate(which IMO they should)

[Madmanpur3]

I'm not gonna lie...this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever seen and you guys are way overthinking this.

 

 

 

The solution is very, very simple...make the GE update prices based on OFFERS. Only offers to buy above market price and offers to sell below market price affect it - that way there is no easy manipulation with offering to sell above and buy below. On top of this, they should put in place an auto sell option on the ge that's 10-15% below the market price...

 

 

 

Edit - Discontinued items (possibly some of the extremely rare non-discontinued items too) are an exception when it comes to adjusting the price based on buying offers above market price.

 

 

 

 

 

that wouldn't work

 

if merchers make 100000 bots put in max price offers at the same time and this updates the G.E. then prices would skyrocket to the obscene, we would be seeing rare items cost billions

 

 

 

I do like the auto sell, but that's basically just how selling to general stores work, if general stores bought items at a flat rate(which IMO they should)

 

What?...prices wouldn't adjust like that...they would adjust at like 20% max a day.

[psvstef]

@Madmanpur3 : that's still way too much,all manipulation is too much :|