Help put an end to junk trading

[acenator]

@mako. just because its not sold doesnt mean the price wont change. jagex can and has in the past changed prices manually to get things moving on certain items. claws move because of jagex helping it, and also a small number of cs'd claws. they arent completley blinded to the problems

 

 

 

That's true. But adjusting prices is only half the battle. Consider if the items that are considered "junk" could be converted to gold, and the player sought to buy a rare on the GE. That trade becomes possible, and the item starts to move.

 

 

 

The way I see it, adjusting prices is honestly like fighting fire with a cup of coffee. Not so bad for a small hotspot; horrible if you've got a forest fire.

 

Of course just adjusting the prices once to get everything going now with no intention of keeping them updated wouldn't work, but if you get them in the right spot now (meaning that people will start using the GE again) and then follow it up with the end to junk (with the easiest way being the removal of the price floors and dependencies that keep them from dropping to where other players will buy them) and a continuous stream of price updates when they are needed, then you got the whole thing fixed.

 

 

 

It's true that adjusting prices is only half the battle, but the battle has to start somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

As for Mazgar's incessant belief that junk trading brings no net gain, I have one thing to say (or do, really): #-o

 

 

 

How is the selling of something (for more than it's really worth, to boot) that you aren't going to use yourself and you got for free from a monster drop/whatever not profiting? Especially when said item cannot be sold to other players and is worth practically nothing when sold to a shop. You define profit as "an increase of net worth." This is false. http://www.dictionary.com defines profit as, among other things*, an "advantage; gain; benefit." Now, I don't know about you, but I consider selling something I got for free at inflated price people aren't willing to pay an advantage (I sold something not otherwise sellable), a gain (I got something for nothing, overall), and a benefit (I can now use the cash to buy things I actually want.

 

 

 

*Some other definitions of profit:

 

"1. Often, profits.

 

a. [monetary] gain resulting from the employment of capital in any transaction. Compare gross profit, net profit.

 

b. the ratio of such [monetary] gain to the amount of capital invested.

 

c. returns, proceeds, or revenue, as from property or investments.

 

 

 

2. the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc."

 

 

 

Notice the use of the word monetary (it's actually "pecuniary" on dictionary.com, but they mean the same thing and monetary's much more likely to be understood) in these definitions and the lack of the phrase "net worth."

[walka92]

@mako. just because its not sold doesnt mean the price wont change. jagex can and has in the past changed prices manually to get things moving on certain items. claws move because of jagex helping it, and also a small number of cs'd claws. they arent completley blinded to the problems

 

 

 

That's true. But adjusting prices is only half the battle. Consider if the items that are considered "junk" could be converted to gold, and the player sought to buy a rare on the GE. That trade becomes possible, and the item starts to move.

 

 

 

The way I see it, adjusting prices is honestly like fighting fire with a cup of coffee. Not so bad for a small hotspot; horrible if you've got a forest fire.

 

Of course just adjusting the prices once to get everything going now with no intention of keeping them updated wouldn't work, but if you get them in the right spot now (meaning that people will start using the GE again) and then follow it up with the end to junk (with the easiest way being the removal of the price floors and dependencies that keep them from dropping to where other players will buy them) and a continuous stream of price updates when they are needed, then you got the whole thing fixed.

 

 

 

It's true that adjusting prices is only half the battle, but the battle has to start somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

As for Mazgar's incessant belief that junk trading brings no net gain, I have one thing to say (or do, really): #-o

 

 

 

How is the selling of something (for more than it's really worth, to boot) that you aren't going to use yourself and you got for free from a monster drop/whatever not profiting? Especially when said item cannot be sold to other players and is worth practically nothing when sold to a shop. You define profit as "an increase of net worth." This is false. http://www.dictionary.com defines profit as, among other things*, an "advantage; gain; benefit." Now, I don't know about you, but I consider selling something I got for free at inflated price people aren't willing to pay an advantage (I sold something not otherwise sellable), a gain (I got something for nothing, overall), and a benefit (I can now use the cash to buy things I actually want.

 

 

 

*Some other definitions of profit:

 

"1. Often, profits.

 

a. [monetary] gain resulting from the employment of capital in any transaction. Compare gross profit, net profit.

 

b. the ratio of such [monetary] gain to the amount of capital invested.

 

c. returns, proceeds, or revenue, as from property or investments.

 

 

 

2. the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc."

 

 

 

Notice the use of the word monetary (it's actually "pecuniary" on dictionary.com, but they mean the same thing and monetary's much more likely to be understood) in these definitions and the lack of the phrase "net worth."

 

you pretty much summed up my arguments more eloquently than i could myself :P so i thank you, acenator.

[magzar]

walka no offense

 

but you haven't got a damn clue what you're talking about

 

 

 

the junk has a monetary value

 

you could go sell it to general stores for coins

 

the fact it has no real world value or application DOES NOT MATTER ECONOMICALLY

 

 

 

when determining profit you use an item's monetary value not its real world value

 

 

 

if you have 50m worth of junk, you can trade it for 50m worth of coins (if someone is willing)

 

therefore that junk is worth 50m in monetary value

 

and so selling 50m worth of junk and a 10m rare gets you 60m when either of the sole parts could be traded for their respective MONETARY value

 

 

 

so you are NOT making 50m profit

 

you are not making ANY profit(outside that magical 60k)

 

 

 

but when you put that rare in the ge for more than it's median value you are profiting every coin above that median

 

and if junk trading didn't exist and everyone used the G.E. then this would be easily accomplished because the market would be on the g.e. allowing you to buy and sell much more quickly without all the time spent gathering junk

 

 

 

if you do gather junk, then you profit from every piece you pick up, but you have to, from there, sell it for above it's median price to make any more profit from it

 

which CAN NOT BE DONE in player to player trading

 

 

 

how many times do i have to tell you trading useless items for their monetary equivalent may be smart in terms of having something you can use rather than junk

 

but it does not in any way shape or fashion constitute a profit

 

 

 

and acenator you defeated your own argument by the repeated use of the word monetary

 

you are equating profit to this Monetary value - real world value = profit

 

 

 

which isn't the case

 

by picking up the items you gain their net worth in monetary value

 

and to profit monetarily (if you didn't understand that monetary profit is what we were talking about here)

 

the equation is Selling price - Monetary value = profit

 

 

 

real world value has no place in economics

 

 

 

beanie babies have no real world value or use

 

yet people spent thousands of dollars on them

 

thereby proving that monetary value is not equal to real world value

 

or in runescape terms

 

party hats have no real world value their only use is as a status symbol

 

yet people pay hundreds of millions for them

 

 

 

 

 

you have to produce a monetary gain to earn a monetary profit

 

 

 

yes you are profiting in the sense that you now have something useful as opposed to junk

 

no you are not making extra money for your junk

[Infi]

What Magzar fails to understand here is that junk is called for what it is in essence, junk.

 

With no practical use, no desirability of the item and with 0 demand, the item is rendered useless. Junk cannot be inputted into the equation as 0 gain or loss of monetary value, as it is merely a ghost value used to fill in the gap between trades. Because these items are not used and are not going to be sold in any way, you do not lose any money but use it as a way to sell item(s) that will not be sold under normal conditions. Perhaps I have missed some few points raised while skimming through the 8 pages of this discussion, but if you're buying junk to sell an item then I might agree with you that you're going nowhere. However, if the items are a byproduct of a skill and are considered useless, defunct or unsellable, then I don't see the problem here.

[magzar]

by the way i do understand your standpoints

 

they're completely sound if you're measuring your profit in real world value

 

50m coins is much more useful than 50m worth of maple longs

 

 

 

however your arguments don't stand up economically

 

and since it's about making money the economics are what matter

 

 

 

anyway here's the end to your argument

 

 

 

 

 

 

sales is the price at which you sell your goods

 

cost of goods sold is the actual monetary value of those goods

 

 

 

so profit = sale price - monetary value

 

 

 

then you divide it by sale price if you want to get the percentage of profit

 

 

 

 

 

that's the profit formula

 

you can argue with me all you want

 

you can't argue with a mathematical formula

 

 

 

i'm sorry but you have lost this debate

 

 

 

infamous that's its real world value

 

you have to go by it's market or monetary value

 

even though it has no demand or use it still has a monetary value

 

and that monetary value is what you use to determine profit

[Infi]

the junk has a monetary value

 

you could go sell it to general stores for coins

 

the fact it has no real world value or application DOES NOT MATTER ECONOMICALLY

 

The fact that is has no use or application of the item does matter. If you're reduced to selling the item to a general store for a drastically lowered fraction of it's GE value then you're playing the victim here. Why sell an item to the general store for 3 gp each when you can use it to fill in trades for 150+ gp each?

 

 

 

when determining profit you use an item's monetary value not its real world value

 

By that logic whips should be 72k, not it's GE value of 1.5M.

 

 

 

if you have 50m worth of junk, you can trade it for 50m worth of coins (if someone is willing)

 

therefore that junk is worth 50m in monetary value

 

Referring to my post above, junk is called junk because you guessed it, it's JUNK! No one is going to be "willing" the buy you're item if it has no use whatsoever, and it's price is inflated because of constant junk trading. You can't assume that someone is going to buy it just because it has a GE value of 50M, the fact stands that NO ONE is going to buy 50M worth of Addy Javelins at market price.

 

 

 

and so selling 50m worth of junk and a 10m rare gets you 60m when either of the sole parts could be traded for their respective MONETARY value

 

That's the point of junk. When items are restricted by it's GE price you use obsolete items that no one uses in order to fill in the gap. Perhaps your thinking is distorted to what is/what isn't junk, because there are only a few items out there which I truly consider true junk.

 

 

 

 

but when you put that rare in the ge for more than it's median value you are profiting every coin above that median

 

You're losing money that way, by not using your junk to reach a desired price.

 

 

 

and if junk trading didn't exist and everyone used the G.E. then this would be easily accomplished because the market would be on the g.e. allowing you to buy and sell much more quickly without all the time spent gathering junk

 

 

I'm pretty sure the majority of people don't go and junk hunt. I for myself find junk as a byproduct of certain skills, when items are deemed unsellable by the GE.

 

 

 

if you do gather junk, then you profit from every piece you pick up, but you have to, from there, sell it for above it's median price to make any more profit from it

 

which CAN NOT BE DONE in player to player trading

 

No one is going to buy junk off the GE for median price, let alone minimum price.

 

And it is done in player to player trading, why do you think that junk trading is so prevalent in the rare community?

 

 

 

how many times do i have to tell you trading useless items for their monetary equivalent may be smart in terms of having something you can use rather than junk

 

but it does not in any way shape or fashion constitute a profit

 

It does constitute a profit because the GE value that is assigned to the junk is merely fictitious; it's a representation of the flawed system that Jagex puts on some items. Players like I use this flaw not to go through illicit trades, but to receive value for my items which I feel deserve more.

 

 

 

beanie babies have no real world value or use

 

yet people spent thousands of dollars on them

 

thereby proving that monetary value is not equal to real world value

 

or in runescape terms

 

party hats have no real world value their only use is as a status symbol

 

yet people pay hundreds of millions for them

 

You cannot compare real life economics to the economics of Runescape. It is a bad move on your part, and probably the worst analogy you have chosen. If you would like me to point out the flaws of this paragraph I'd be happy to do so, but it pretty much speaks for itself.

[DreamReaper]

If I found 30kg of pure gold in my front yard it would be worthless. I, myself, couldn't do anything with the gold, so by finding the gold - I DON't profit. I need to find somebody who would be willing to give me a common currency with which I can buy necessities with. I can't buy groceries with gold, can I?

 

 

 

The act of finding something does not bring profit; it brings more net worth, and net worth is not money.

[Infi]

by the way i do understand your standpoints

 

they're completely sound if you're measuring your profit in real world value

 

50m coins is much more useful than 50m worth of maple longs

 

 

 

however your arguments don't stand up economically

 

and since it's about making money the economics are what matter

 

 

 

anyway here's the end to your argument

 

 

 

 

 

 

sales is the price at which you sell your goods

 

cost of goods sold is the actual monetary value of those goods

 

 

 

so profit = sale price - monetary value

 

 

 

then you divide it by sale price if you want to get the percentage of profit

 

 

 

 

 

that's the profit formula

 

you can argue with me all you want

 

you can't argue with a mathematical formula

 

 

 

i'm sorry but you have lost this debate

 

 

 

infamous that's its real world value

 

you have to go by it's market or monetary value

 

even though it has no demand or use it still has a monetary value

 

and that monetary value is what you use to determine profit

 

Quite a fallacious argument. Your whole post is irrelevant to what I've just outlined.

 

Gross profit is dictated by the amount of sales subtracted by the cost of everything in total, which would give you the amount in which you have profited.

 

Calculated as sales minus all costs directly related to those sales. These costs can include manufacturing expenses, raw materials, labor, selling, marketing and other expenses.

 

Source: http://www.investorwords.com/2249/gross_profit.html

 

 

 

I fail to see how the cost of sale goods = actual monetary value of the goods. Did I miss something here?

 

Bringing unsupported pictures with irrelevant formulas does not help your case. Bringing it all together you ignorantly announce your victory of a debate in which, you constantly seem to spew out fallacious arguments which in reality stand no ground.

 

 

 

Bringing a formula into your argument would surely help, but not when you don't even know when to apply it.

 

 

 

Oh and by the way,

 

infamous that's its real world value

 

you have to go by it's market or monetary value

 

even though it has no demand or use it still has a monetary value

 

and that monetary value is what you use to determine profit

 

This is where your whole argument falls apart. You cannot go by the items monetary value because like the GE, the item is flawed. Jagex has not fixed the price of the item yet, so you cannot even come close to thinking that the price that Jagex assigns to that item is an accurate reflection of it. Until Jagex fixes items such as 3rd age and some specific rares, then junk trading will exist whether you like it or not.

[walka92]

how about this. instead of arguing. i will say this

 

 

 

junk is a mixed blessing. if a person is say, going for 99 summoning and needs to make money to do it, and are 50m off and are impatient, they will want the 50m quickly.

 

during the course of previous fighting and charm collecting, they comehow come up with 40m of junk they cant use, noone wanted and they dont wish to drop.

 

thewy go to tormented demons and get their prize; claws. they then realize just how much junk they have. just enough to sell it on the street price with junk; and therefore have enough money to buy bursts, shards and second ingredients for 99 summoning

 

 

 

OP, put yourself in this persons shoes. the junk took you no time to collect; as you spent all the time not hunting junk. if you believe picking up the junk is the profit then look at it this way:

 

 

 

the junk has no use.

 

noeone will buy junk

 

but i need the money

 

but people are willing to pay that much for my new drop

 

ill just use it to boost the trade value so i can now get the level i wanted with the extra cash

 

 

 

i thought about it. and yes, as you said, all it really is is exchanging something you dont need for something you do.

 

 

 

i guess thats what you were saying anyway, but whatever

 

 

 

noone in their rightmind would sell claws for ge price and just leave the junk doing nothing in their bank, or drop it. the junk has no real vlue if you cant do anything with it, its useless. you'd have to be stupid not to use the junk to sell claws for mroe, in such a situation.

 

 

 

 

 

OP. in this situation, what would you do?

 

sell claws+junk for 50m

 

or sell claws for ge price and do nothing with the junk

 

 

 

if it is the latter, you are an idiot and pointless to argue with.

 

if you dont agree with junkers, just ignore them and hope to god you never have to deal with them, or man up and pay the street price and not the "monetary value"

 

 

 

after this; i cant be bothered posting with this topic anymore. sofar its been comparable arguing with a brick wall.im sick of this.

[magzar]

the junk has a monetary value

 

you could go sell it to general stores for coins

 

the fact it has no real world value or application DOES NOT MATTER ECONOMICALLY

 

The fact that is has no use or application of the item does matter. If you're reduced to selling the item to a general store for a drastically lowered fraction of it's GE value then you're playing the victim here. Why sell an item to the general store for 3 gp each when you can use it to fill in trades for 150+ gp each?

 

 

 

selling it to general stores because players won't buy it does lose you money unfortunately but since players won't buy it there's not much choice

 

 

 

when determining profit you use an item's monetary value not its real world value

 

By that logic whips should be 72k, not it's GE value of 1.5M.

 

 

 

um no.....

 

monetary value = market value = g.e. value

 

therefore a whip's monetary value is 1.5m......

 

i'm really not sure where you came up with this

 

 

 

if you have 50m worth of junk, you can trade it for 50m worth of coins (if someone is willing)

 

therefore that junk is worth 50m in monetary value

 

Referring to my post above, junk is called junk because you guessed it, it's JUNK! No one is going to be "willing" the buy you're item if it has no use whatsoever, and it's price is inflated because of constant junk trading. You can't assume that someone is going to buy it just because it has a GE value of 50M, the fact stands that NO ONE is going to buy 50M worth of Addy Javelins at market price.

 

 

 

hypothetical situation, if you could find someone to buy it it would still be worth 50m

 

you can't find anyone to buy it

 

but it's still worth 50m if you try to trade it by itself without a rare you have to pay how much? oh yeh 50m

 

if it had no monetary value you could trade it for free

 

 

 

and so selling 50m worth of junk and a 10m rare gets you 60m when either of the sole parts could be traded for their respective MONETARY value

 

That's the point of junk. When items are restricted by it's GE price you use obsolete items that no one uses in order to fill in the gap. Perhaps your thinking is distorted to what is/what isn't junk, because there are only a few items out there which I truly consider true junk.

 

 

 

what is and isn't junk doesn't matter you're still trading your rare at market price, but you're also trading the junk at it's market price

 

 

 

so going from my formula earlier

 

sales(60m) - cost of goods sold(60m) = profit (0)

 

 

 

 

but when you put that rare in the ge for more than it's median value you are profiting every coin above that median

 

You're losing money that way, by not using your junk to reach a desired price.

 

again look at the formula

 

selling an item for above its market price provides profit

 

whether it's a bucket or a partyhat

 

the same rules apply

 

 

 

and if junk trading didn't exist and everyone used the G.E. then this would be easily accomplished because the market would be on the g.e. allowing you to buy and sell much more quickly without all the time spent gathering junk

 

 

I'm pretty sure the majority of people don't go and junk hunt. I for myself find junk as a byproduct of certain skills, when items are deemed unsellable by the GE.

 

 

 

if you do gather junk, then you profit from every piece you pick up, but you have to, from there, sell it for above it's median price to make any more profit from it

 

which CAN NOT BE DONE in player to player trading

 

No one is going to buy junk off the GE for median price, let alone minimum price.

 

And it is done in player to player trading, why do you think that junk trading is so prevalent in the rare community?

 

 

 

it's prevalent because the majority of the player base doesn't have the maturity and education to understand economics

 

i'm sorry but young teens trying to come up with complicated work-arounds for the g.e. is doomed to failure

 

players noticed they could add things in and get the amount of coins they wanted

 

what they didn't realize is that the weren't actually profiting on the rare

 

they were just selling a rare at g.e. prices and all their junk

 

 

 

how many times do i have to tell you trading useless items for their monetary equivalent may be smart in terms of having something you can use rather than junk

 

but it does not in any way shape or fashion constitute a profit

 

It does constitute a profit because the GE value that is assigned to the junk is merely fictitious; it's a representation of the flawed system that Jagex puts on some items. Players like I use this flaw not to go through illicit trades, but to receive value for my items which I feel deserve more.

 

 

 

you have it backwards

 

g.e. value is a concrete measurable value set for an item

 

it is a tangible amount

 

real world value is a common agreement on what people believe an item should be worth

 

real world value is fictitious

 

and again profit formula proves that you are not receiving more

 

 

 

beanie babies have no real world value or use

 

yet people spent thousands of dollars on them

 

thereby proving that monetary value is not equal to real world value

 

or in runescape terms

 

party hats have no real world value their only use is as a status symbol

 

yet people pay hundreds of millions for them

 

You cannot compare real life economics to the economics of Runescape. It is a bad move on your part, and probably the worst analogy you have chosen. If you would like me to point out the flaws of this paragraph I'd be happy to do so, but it pretty much speaks for itself.

 

 

 

yes you can infamous

 

the mathematics behind economics can not be changed

 

economics are economics regardless of the settings

 

unless runescape comes up with new mathematical formula's to determine the economics of runescape then they are equivalent

 

 

 

 

 

dream reaper the 30kg of pure gold has a monetary value

 

most countries use gold bouillion

 

paper money and coins have no actual value

 

they are a representation of a percentage of the country's total holding in gold or other precious commodities

 

hence why the value of currency can change

 

 

 

when you pick up the gold you have made the profit of what it's worth

 

that's why people invest in gold stock

 

the price of gold is constant

 

they keep the gold and their net worth represents its monetary value

 

and when they need the money they sell the gold stock and use the money that is representative of it

[magzar]

by the way i do understand your standpoints

 

they're completely sound if you're measuring your profit in real world value

 

50m coins is much more useful than 50m worth of maple longs

 

 

 

however your arguments don't stand up economically

 

and since it's about making money the economics are what matter

 

 

 

anyway here's the end to your argument

 

 

 

 

 

 

sales is the price at which you sell your goods

 

cost of goods sold is the actual monetary value of those goods

 

 

 

so profit = sale price - monetary value

 

 

 

then you divide it by sale price if you want to get the percentage of profit

 

 

 

 

 

that's the profit formula

 

you can argue with me all you want

 

you can't argue with a mathematical formula

 

 

 

i'm sorry but you have lost this debate

 

 

 

infamous that's its real world value

 

you have to go by it's market or monetary value

 

even though it has no demand or use it still has a monetary value

 

and that monetary value is what you use to determine profit

 

Quite a fallacious argument. Your whole post is irrelevant to what I've just outlined.

 

Gross profit is dictated by the amount of sales subtracted by the cost of everything in total, which would give you the amount in which you have profited.

 

Calculated as sales minus all costs directly related to those sales. These costs can include manufacturing expenses, raw materials, labor, selling, marketing and other expenses.

 

Source: http://www.investorwords.com/2249/gross_profit.html

 

 

 

I fail to see how the cost of sale goods = actual monetary value of the goods. Did I miss something here?

 

Bringing unsupported pictures with irrelevant formulas does not help your case. Bringing it all together you ignorantly announce your victory of a debate in which, you constantly seem to spew out fallacious arguments which in reality stand no ground.

 

 

 

Bringing a formula into your argument would surely help, but not when you don't even know when to apply it.

 

 

 

Oh and by the way,

 

infamous that's its real world value

 

you have to go by it's market or monetary value

 

even though it has no demand or use it still has a monetary value

 

and that monetary value is what you use to determine profit

 

This is where your whole argument falls apart. You cannot go by the items monetary value because like the GE, the item is flawed. Jagex has not fixed the price of the item yet, so you cannot even come close to thinking that the price that Jagex assigns to that item is an accurate reflection of it. Until Jagex fixes items such as 3rd age and some specific rares, then junk trading will exist whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

oh my god are you [bleep]ing [cabbage]ting me

 

 

 

economics = money = monetary value real world value has NO PLACE IN ECONOMICS

 

 

 

and you hurt your argument by bringing up cost of manufacture and such things as these are factors which subtract from profit

 

 

 

so ok let's go with it

 

 

 

sales - cost of goods sold - (amount of items(manufacture cost x time to manufacture one itemx cost of raw materials to manufacture one item) = real profit

 

that is so much better than my simplified gross profit formula

 

which if you understood what gross meant you would see you just made yourself look like an imbecile

 

 

 

you can not use the players ideas of what an item should cost in a trade in which the costs are fixed

 

you must use its set market value to determine it's cost

 

you're a flat out idiot for saying when you're trying to determine how much money you're making you don't use the monetary value

 

that's not only ridiculous it's completely contradictory and i'm now pretty sure you have the IQ of a cabbage

 

 

 

i wish i could have you talk to my grandpa who has been an accountant for the past i dunno 40 years

 

he could also tell you you're an idiot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

walka the reason for using the g.e. to sell rares is because you can sell them above market price by more than 60k

 

 

 

like you said with junk you're just exchanging an item for it's exact value so you're not making an actual profit

 

you're just transferring between having that 60m in goods and 60m in coins

 

 

 

coins are more useful but they have the same value overall

 

so you do what you choose

 

i'll sell my rares in the g.e. for profit and encourage people with a sound understanding of economics to do the same

[Infi]

selling it to general stores because players won't buy it does lose you money unfortunately but since players won't buy it there's not much choice

 

Well there you have it. This just proves that you've missed the whole concept of junk trading. Players will buy it when put under certain circumstances, where they are forced to buy it because of the undervalued price of an item, say a 3rd age amulet. Perhaps you should do some research on junk trading before criticizing it so much the way you do.

 

 

 

um no.....

 

monetary value = market value = g.e. value

 

therefore a whip's monetary value is 1.5m......

 

i'm really not sure where you came up with this

 

Well here's another flaw. I'm not sure where you come up with all this monetary/real life value nonsense, but your perception of terms is misconstrued. When determining profit, you go by the street value of the item. Why? Because at one point when the price of Dragon Claws where a mere 150k, the only way you could obtain it was through junk trading. There was no way you could obtain Dragon Claws otherwise unless it was CS'd through the GE. The whole concept of junk trading and items traded with for and with junk is what this topic is about, not for general items such as coal and other gathered resources. You're not going to junk trade for a rune plate, or an amulet of glory.

 

 

 

hypothetical situation, if you could find someone to buy it it would still be worth 50m

 

you can't find anyone to buy it

 

but it's still worth 50m if you try to trade it by itself without a rare you have to pay how much? oh yeh 50m

 

if it had no monetary value you could trade it for free

 

I'm not going to repeat myself again. No one is going to buy it and the value of that 50M does not accurately reflect the actual price of the item. No one is going to buy it on its own.

 

 

 

what is and isn't junk doesn't matter you're still trading your rare at market price, but you're also trading the junk at it's market price

 

 

 

so going from my formula earlier

 

sales(60m) - cost of goods sold(60m) = profit (0)

 

 

Refer to my posts above, and the two other arguments I've submitted which you've so far not even bothered responding to.

 

 

 

again look at the formula

 

selling an item for above its market price provides profit

 

whether it's a bucket or a partyhat

 

the same rules apply

 

 

Your formula is irrelevant and does not apply to the fractured state of the RS economy.

 

 

 

it's prevalent because the majority of the player base doesn't have the maturity and education to understand economics

 

i'm sorry but young teens trying to come up with complicated work-arounds for the g.e. is doomed to failure

 

players noticed they could add things in and get the amount of coins they wanted

 

what they didn't realize is that the weren't actually profiting on the rare

 

they were just selling a rare at g.e. prices and all their junk

 

You're rambling, comrade. What does maturity and education have to do with an online game. Unlike real life, each item is assigned a specific value. You don't go up to a dirty piece of cloth in your house and say: "Hey! That's worth $1.00!" Is anyone going to buy it? No. Does it mean anything that just because you've assigned it an inaccurate reflection of its value that it still has that value? No.

 

 

 

you have it backwards

 

g.e. value is a concrete measurable value set for an item

 

it is a tangible amount

 

real world value is a common agreement on what people believe an item should be worth

 

real world value is fictitious

 

and again profit formula proves that you are not receiving more

 

Then real world value is as fictitious as the values that the GE provides, which are set by Jagex. As you can tell, you're not going to be very successful buying 3rd age off the GE, and it shows. The GE is as broken for some items as you can imagine, and the only alternate methods are what we are today.

[Infi]

 

oh my god are you [bleep] [cabbage] me

 

 

 

you would see you just made yourself look like an imbecile

 

 

 

and i'm now pretty sure you have the IQ of a cabbage

 

 

 

i wish i could have you talk to my grandpa who has been an accountant for the past i dunno 40 years

 

he could also tell you you're an idiot

 

 

 

i'm sorry but you have lost this debate

 

 

 

walka no offense

 

but you haven't got a damn clue what you're talking about

 

Oh the list goes on...

 

And your ignorance astounds me. Every time we present a logical argument you resort to mudslinging and fail to comprehend any of the logic that we're trying to tell you. You bring back the same, irrelevant points in which you relate RS economics with real life economy.

 

 

 

RS Economy =/= Real World Economy

 

 

 

The price of items are dictated by Jagex. I'll leave you to infer what that means and to squabble ignorantly with the rest of the people who try to impose an understanding upon you.

[Obtaurian]

I lol every time Magzar posts.

[magzar]

 

oh my god are you [bleep] [cabbage] me

 

 

 

you would see you just made yourself look like an imbecile

 

 

 

and i'm now pretty sure you have the IQ of a cabbage

 

 

 

i wish i could have you talk to my grandpa who has been an accountant for the past i dunno 40 years

 

he could also tell you you're an idiot

 

 

 

i'm sorry but you have lost this debate

 

 

 

walka no offense

 

but you haven't got a damn clue what you're talking about

 

Oh the list goes on...

 

And your ignorance astounds me. Every time we present a logical argument you resort to mudslinging and fail to comprehend any of the logic that we're trying to tell you. You bring back the same, irrelevant points in which you relate RS economics with real life economy.

 

 

 

RS Economy =/= Real World Economy

 

 

 

The price of items are dictated by Jagex. I'll leave you to infer what that means and to squabble ignorantly with the rest of the people who try to impose an understanding upon you.

 

 

 

 

 

economy is economy you nitwit

 

it's based on mathematical laws

 

it doesn't matter if it's real life or a game

 

runescape doesn't have a some new obscure form of math that makes things different than the real world

 

i have repeatedly posted mathematical figures, and even a god damn scientifically proven profit formula to back up my argument

 

yours is "that the real world value is what matters not the monetary value"

 

well [cabbage] sherlock

 

thanks you've deduced that you use a highly unstable verbally agreed upon price rather than the price set in the g.e. which represents the only value you can trade that item it, junk or no junk

 

it's always going to be x price for the item + y price for the junk

 

so thanks for that

 

remind me to tell the IRS that my car's real world value is $14 because i think that's what it should be worth and it's the car company who has it wrong

 

i can't wait to hear their response

 

 

 

or another of your brilliant assertions

 

junk is worth nothing

 

this doesn't even make sense

 

how can it be worth nothing and millions at the same time

 

and why do i have to exchange millions in coins for it exactly?

 

of course this cycles back to the above where you assert in economics it's the real world value that matters and not the monetary value funny considering economics deals predominantly in money and the exchange thereof, and that monetary literally means in relation to money

 

 

 

by the way real world value is a stupid [bleep]ing term

 

the real world value is the g.e. price

 

which is there for everyone to see, plain as day

 

posted on the RS website who own all rights to runescape and can set prices as they damn well please

 

funny how they're wrong about their own intellectual property and a bunch of whiny kids are right

 

 

 

i mean come on your arguments are not based in any form of scientific or mathematical fact

 

at least the guy who suggested the relation to fiat money took the time to do reasearch and learn a few things

 

 

 

i love how you leave off with the prices are dictated by jagex

 

which would mean you agree that they have the right to choose the prices of items

 

in which case i think you may be confused about which side you're on

 

 

 

anyway

 

show me some math that proves your point

 

the way i have repeatedly done for you

 

and we'll be good to go

 

i know it's tough on a 7th grade level to understand all these numbers and figures and equations and analogies and HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS i can't stress that part enough hypothetical, you'd think it was an alien concept considering the fact that any hypothetical statement i made was met with "Nuh uh noob no1 iz guna do taht" or the equivalent thereof

 

 

 

anyway let me make this absolutely, undeniably, and indisputably clear.

 

ok ready?

 

 

 

Economy, whether it be in a game, in the real world, or otherwise, must always follow certain mathematical laws

 

the laws of profit, interest, inflation, supply and demand, etc.

 

these function in any setting and can not be circumvented by any means

 

this is due to the fact that you can not circumvent math

 

which is what you're basically telling me

 

you're not telling me i'm wrong

 

you're telling me math is wrong

 

and sorry sirs

 

but math is never wrong

[acenator]

 

 

 

 

 

profit = sale price - monetary value

 

First off, I like the fact that those are two completely different equations. The one in the picture says profit is the "(sales - cost of goods sold)/sales" while the other is "profit = sale price - monetary value."

 

 

 

Notice the use of the phrase "cost of goods sold." This is referring to the monetary cost that was paid for those goods in the first place. NOT their GE/monetary/whatever the crap value you want to give them. This means that, if I sold my d claws (which I got from a monster drop) with 40 mill worth of junk that I picked up while slaying (and therefore cost me nothing), I would get 51 mill profit because sales (~51 mill for the claws and junk) - the monetary loss taken to get said items (a pittance if you count the money spent on supplies to kill tormented demons) = a gross profit of ~51 mill.

[Lep]

Tell me this...why do you junk traders waste time cutting thousands of Maple Logs to Fletch them into Unstrung Bows when you could cut thousands of Yew Logs and either sell them for actual money or make them into Bows and Alch them? That is not logical.

 

 

 

However, with the recent update of apparently cutting an extra Maple after the Diary, it seems Jagex actual lean TOWARDS junk trading and support it. :? :shock:

[killotroll]

Tell me this...why do you junk traders waste time cutting thousands of Maple Logs to Fletch them into Unstrung Bows when you could cut thousands of Yew Logs and either sell them for actual money or make them into Bows and Alch them? That is not logical.

 

 

 

 

MTK

[razzzzzza]

Whats junk trading? Im unfamiliar with the term

[Silver_Corner]

magzar...

 

 

 

I am against junk trading like yourself, but reading your more recent posts, your grasping at straws.

 

 

 

Regardless if your for or against junk trading, you CANNOT apply real world economics to the RS economy. Any time anyone tries to do it, they fail, because the RS economy is very different than how one works in the real world.

 

 

 

There are other factors such as gaining xp, that would never be a factor in real world economics, which make a BIG influence in junk and prices in RS. So don't apply real world tactics to a game.

 

 

 

Alot of the junk is produced because people want cheap xp (cutting maple longs) and actually DO make more money junk trading them than selling them to the general store. You need to produce an idea around this, not just ignore that it exists.

 

 

 

Example:

 

You get 1k maple logs from MTK. You want some fletch xp, so you make maple longs. You can either

 

A) Sell them to the general store for like 20 gp each.

 

B) Tack them onto a trade for 160gp each to get more than you normally would liquidating them.

 

 

 

While you did not actually make "more" by junk trading them, in reality you did make "more" because you sold them for more than they would normally sell for. Because they WONT sell for the G.E. Value.

 

 

 

Example 2:

 

You get 100 addy javs from Black Dragons. You can either:

 

A) Sell in the store for 10gp

 

B) Tack onto a trade for something someone wants to get more than you normally would liquidating them.

 

 

 

The ONLY difference of this whole argument is that junk is JUNK. If junk was useful tradeable stuff, nobody would have an issue. The solution is to make junk useable/useful. End of thead. Thats the solution, not making people use the G.E. or take a loss. Make junk useable, solves everyone's problems, and fixes the G.E. while hurting nobody in the process.

 

 

 

magzar I understand you are against junk trading like me, but you cant ask players to cut 8m off their own "profits" for the good of the game. And by that I mean selling claws for 150k rather than 10m. It just wont happen.

 

 

 

I agree with you that junk needs to be removed, but you need to be realistic with your ideas on how to solve the problem.

[bedman]

 

*facepalm* erk with the exception of items that alch for more than their ge value it is impossible to make a "NET GAIN" of more than 60k in a player to player trade

 

 

 

trading junk for it's equivalent value in gold = "0 NET GAIN"!!!!! or in layman's terms 0 profit

 

you only profit if the money you get is higher than the net value of what you sell thereby increasing your net worth

 

 

 

here

 

 

 

you have a pile of broken shovels

 

they're worth $5 in scrap metal each and you have 100 of them

 

you also have a lump of pure silver worth $50 on the market but you believe it should be worth $100

 

you sell them together for $550

 

profit = $0

 

 

 

you have a lump of silver worth $50

 

you sell it at 5% inflation ($2.50)

 

which comes out to $52.50

 

profit = $2.50

 

 

 

no matter how far off the G.E. is you still make more profit using it than ever would be possible by junking

 

seriously go to an economics teacher and talk to them about this

 

they'll tell you exactly what i am

 

 

 

While I do agree with you that junk isnt worthless, there IS difference between your example and RS.

 

 

 

The scrap metal price that you are listing, is a RIGHT price. The point of junk is that it is overpriced. Scrap metal dealers dont buy overpriced shovels.

 

 

 

To continue your with your example: A scrap metal dealer wont pay more for your shovel than you have paid for it when it was brand new.

 

 

 

In runescape on the other hand, you can get maples from your kingdom, USE them for xp and they and they will become worth MORE (according to the GE).

 

 

 

However, just like a crap metal dealer doesnt buy for more than what you have paid for the new shovels, nobody is going to buy your maple bows (u). BUT, due to the trade restrictions, any player buying the bows (u) from you, is FORCED to pay that high price.

 

 

 

So a scrap metal dealer is better compared with the general store IMO.

 

 

 

Like people has said, you cant compare RS economy with RL economy. First of all cause xp is valued, and that differs from person to person. But secondly, and more IMPORTANTLY, there are trade restrictions and JAGEX DECIDES THE PRICES. (which or often wrong). (Can you imagine the government forcing that scrap metal dealer to buy your shovels for more than what you've bought em for :o).

 

 

 

 

 

This being said, I do agree that junk isnt worthless at all. If you got 40M junk (dont ask me why) and you sell your claws with it, you didnt make 50M profit. 10M at most.

 

Lending out has made junk even more valuable.

 

 

 

That's why overpriced items crash much much earlier before reaching their street price.

[Gravy]

I sense a derail.

[Soma2035]

The rules of the real economy can certainly be applied to the RS economy as well. Just because goods in Runescape are not defined in the same way as goods in the real world does not mean the laws do not still apply.

 

 

 

For example, in the real world, cooked food tends to cost more than raw food, while in Runescape, it does not behave the same way. This isn't because Runescape doesn't follow the fundamental laws of economics. This is because in Runescape, the desired benefits are not taste and nutrition. The desired benefits are the experience points and healing.

 

 

 

Raw food supplies both. Cooked food supplies only one. Processing has its cost (burning, time), and its benefit (experience). Because the experience is valued more than the cost, raw food is more valuable than cooked food.

 

 

 

As to the problem at hand, Junk Trading exists only because the Grand Exchange prices are wrong. Before you contradict me, let me ask you this: Who on earth is going to buy millions of maple longbow (u) at the Grand Exchange prices? The Grand Exchange values these items at 144 coins each. No one even uses COMPLETE Maple Longbows. The experience from stringing a Maple Longbow is minimal, and more expensive than simply buying and cutting more logs.

 

 

 

Maple Log

 

- Can be burned for FM xp

 

- Can be fletched for Fletching xp

 

 

 

Maple Longbow (U)

 

- Can be completed for Fletching xp

 

 

 

Maple Longbow

 

- Can be used

 

 

 

This is the problem. Maple longbow has no use. Bowstrings are too valuable to make completing a maple longbow viable. Maple logs are very easily collected, and typically a byproduct of the MTK mini-game, or woodcutting training. Maple Longbow (U) isn't completely worthless. You could sell it to the store for money. However, the ridiculously high, LOCKED, price tag makes this into a junk item. That is, you have an item worth perhaps 15 gp, being priced at 10 times it's value.

 

 

 

On the flip side, you have items that are underpriced. For example, Dragon Claws come from a monster that can only be fought after completing almost every quest in the game. The monsters themselves cost a good sum of money to kill, for prayer potions and food. It's time consuming to battle tormented demons; each kill may take several minutes. It is dangerous, as they do a lot of damage and prayer will not protect you fully. Jagex is set on removing all easy methods to fight them (Just today, they removed the bow-darklight switching trick, meaning that to break its shield, you have to actually hit its higher defense with darklight.) The drop rates have been reduced since the original first day values. You can easily go hundreds of kills without seeing any dragon claws. Also, their other drops are mediocre at best. Or fairly rare, as in the case of dragon plate pieces. All in all, fighting these is NOT pleasant.

 

 

 

Now look at the item itself. Dragon claws are easily one of the best dragon weapons in the game. They have max attack speed for a melee weapon (barring SC), they deal a respectable amount of damage (barely less than a Dragon Scimitar), their attack bonuses are passable, and they have an ungodly special.

 

 

 

Keeping all this in mind... do you really think the GE price of 300k was anywhere near the real value of this item? I'm sorry, but at 1:200 drop rates... I'm NOT spending 10 hours killing these demons, spending over half a million on supplies and other repairs, risking death, all for a 300k item. After I get one for myself, I'm certainly not going back... unless it's for a friend, or to store up more in my bank in hopes the price will fix itself.

 

 

 

In junk trading, you do not gain or lose any Grand Exchange value. However, you undoubtedly gain or lose REAL value, that is, what the item is really worth.

 

 

 

The only way to truly fix junk trading is to either eliminate the set prices of the Grand Exchange (obvious, for several reasons), ensure that the item can be both purchased and sold at the Grand Exchange prices (this could be interesting, if not disastrous. You would essentially be putting every tradeable item into a store), or renovate the Grand Exchange so that its prices reflect the market for that item.

 

 

 

Right now, the Grand Exchange follows the prices well on certain items.

 

 

 

Here is the problem. Let's say at a price of 500K, supply is 5,000 units, demand is 6,000 units. In this case, demand exceeds supply by 1,000 units.

 

 

 

The Grand Exchange ignores this fact. Instead, it looks at the 5,000 completed transactions, and uses that to judge its price change. This works most of the time, because when demand exceeds supply, they are likely to offer higher prices. If demand is less than supply, then the suppliers will offer minimum prices. Therefore, the price will adjust itself eventually, albeit slowly.

 

 

 

However, imagine this situation. At a price of 120M, supply is 0 units, demand is 500 units. No one wants to sell the item at that price... NO ONE. If someone HAS to sell the item, they would much rather sell it to a friend. No transactions are completed, and thus what does the GE think? Supply matches demand. The average transaction is 0, so it assumes the median price and thinks the status quo is acceptable.

 

 

 

Here's the other major problem. At a price of 144 GP, supply is 5,000,000 units. Demand is 500 units. 500 transactions are completed... obviously at the minimum price. However, Jagex has put a minimum price of 144 GP on this item. Therefore the price does not fall.

 

 

 

This is the source of all our economical issues right now. The Grand Exchange needs to be fixed.

[bedman]

Thanks for pointing this out yet again, Soma.

 

 

 

Anybody who doesnt agree with you seriously misses some brain cells, OR is just too young to understand.

[TheDayRsDied]

So the Ge and the set of rules that came with it created the problem of Junk Trading, and now you are proposing a new set of rules, which will probably do nothing except create a new set of problems.

 

 

 

If i got the first ever set of dragon claws from the tormented demons, I would not be interested in selling it for the Jagex-set price of 150k. I would sell it for a higher price, through any means I could possibly sell it. Becasue the price was set so low, it takes the G.E time to catch up to the actual value. Sellers are not just going to get ripped off just to prop up the failed ge system.

 

 

 

If all trading outside the GE was banned, which is the only solution to Junk Tading, then people would just hoard items untill the price went up. And becasue no one with half a brain is going to sell at the GE price, that would take months untill enough morons sold at the max for the price to be reasonable.

 

 

 

You can't force people to conduct business in the way you want to, There will always be unexpected effects and loopholes that you could not have accounted for.