Help put an end to junk trading

[magzar]

yes, if you did sell a rare item with junk and continued to use only the ge as much as possible, that would be fair enough.

 

my point was, that using junk to sell an item for more when possible, saves you from a potential huge loss use useable assets, by selling an item cheap and keeping the junk.

 

 

 

and also, generally people dont use junk trading as their main income; they simply passivly colelct it on the off chance that it may come in handy

 

 

 

im sure you can also understand that, right?

 

 

 

not going into your argument against dusty as much, but you said you always had a 90m bank value, street and ge, but the street value is all in the single rare item; noone buys junk by itself and it has no street value

 

 

 

 

 

lulz walka we've been agreeing this whole damn time what the hell

 

we both agree that the value in junk trading is in getting something useful from something useless and not in making profit off the rare

 

wow how confusing this has been when we both have the same stance #-o

 

i mean you agree that if we could liquidate our junk in another way without loss it would just be better to use the g.e. right?

 

first off, this is mainly coz i pursue conflict, its part of my personality and i cant help it XD

 

 

 

our main problem has been how we define our profits in junking, really. my stance has *slightly* changed in this overtime though, haha

 

 

 

 

 

i agree with your definition of profit being that you have something usable

 

i think that was our problem

 

i was talking about purely having more than you started with moneywise

 

whereas you were talking about having something you could use as opposed to junk

 

 

 

and sorry makoto

 

i'm still against junk trading as it is the cause of frozen g.e. prices

 

but i do see its benefit when it comes to liquidating junk if you already have it

 

i can't see why anyone would ever let 100m worth of junk build up anyway

 

but if it's there you need some way to get what it's worth

 

personally i would sell it as i got it, as selling small amounts of junk to general or specialty stores is a pretty good stop-loss

 

the only reasonable use for junk trading is the liquidation of your frozen assets

 

which, if the buying player really has no choice but to buy it for junk or not buy it at all, constitutes you scamming them into buying your crap

 

 

 

i do believe that bringing junk trading to an end would easily improve the rs economy tenfold

 

the first step i think is a new way for players to liquidate their frozen assets

 

so the "black hole" sounds like a good idea to me

 

i also think jagex should, with the introduction of said black hole, release a statement to players explaining the concept and flaws involved in junk trading, as obviously many players don't really understand what it really does

 

and honestly i don't see any potential for RWT abuse i see no way that it could be used for trading between players

 

 

 

my idea is more like a scrapyard

 

you go and sell your junk at 75-80% of its g.e. value which would allow players to reasonably liquidate their junk without a huge loss

 

and items that aren't junk would still be traded on the g.e.

 

 

 

does everyone basically agree to this concept?

[walka92]

hehe, sounds good :P

[Artemis1330]

The problem here is we have two people(magzar and maketo) who seem to think "whatever Jagex says is right, no matter what".

 

 

 

You dont seem to understand the reall purpose of junk..... Because the ge says a longbow(u) is wirth 144 gps does not mean you can ever get 144gps for it. You seem to think that longbow(u) = 144 gps. False, it's worth close to 0 gps.

 

 

not until players can see that offering cash to "balance" the trade, even if they're receiving cash in return, is no more fundamentally different than offering 92,000 unstrung maple longbows.

 

 

And when will you see that 92k unstrung maple longbows is really worth 0 gps. The ge says in trade they are worth 13,248,000, and therefore can be added to a trade of, for example, dragn claws, to boost the trade 13,248,000. However, you seem to believe that 92k unstrung maple long bows = pure cash anyway. Which is wrong. In reality 92k unstrung maple longbows = 0 gps.

 

 

 

 

you guys are still stuck on the argument that the g.e. is wrong

 

which is irrelevant

 

you can't pay more or less than the g.e. says is right

 

it's impossible

 

you can disagree with the prices all you like

 

you still have to pay them

 

 

 

No, it is you that is stuck on the incorrect thought process. The purpose of junk trades is to pay more or less then ge price. You are stuck on the thought that junk = pure cash, simply because it has a place in the ge saying its worth X amount. Why can't you see that THIS is whats wrong? The ge says a maple long (u) is worth 144 gps. you buy a maple log for 44 gps (or get thousands from your kingdom) and cut it, now suddenly ge says it's worth 144gps. But players will pay maybe 5 gps for it max. It is junk, no one wants it, it's worth nothing. BECAUSE THE GE SAYS ITS WORTH 144 GPS DOES NOT MEAN THATS IT'S REAL VALUE.

[Greedy]

On F2P we have general stores to dump junk, i feel pity for you members.

[lordkafei]

On F2P we have general stores to dump junk, i feel pity for you members.

 

 

 

Har. We have them too, just that no one wants to sit and sell thousands of items to a shop. They'd rather dump them in bulk for their GE value onto someone else who is buying a big-ticket item.

 

 

 

You want my polka-dotted phat? You gotta buy my 10,000 left-handed warhammers too. And you'll pay for them at GE price, not that sliding scale the general stores use.

 

 

 

Why would I sell junk to a general store and take less for each piece I sell when I can sell the junk for an inflated value to someone else? And do it in bulk - which the wonderful general stores won't do.

 

 

 

The ultimate Happy Meal bundle. Except no one is happy.

 

 

 

It all boils down to whose price values you want to believe - Jagex or the Merchants.

 

 

 

Personally, I think World 2 is dead and gone and people really just need to stop living in the past. The longer you fight it, the bigger the bubble gets and the harder the crash when the correction comes.

[bedman]

And you really cant tell us to use the GE more for underpriced items, when you are admitting you wouldnt use it yourself...

 

and i didn't say i wouldn't use the g.e. for them

 

but i'm smart enough to watch price trends and see that they're on the rise

 

 

 

So you expect others to take the massive hit in value while you sit back, watching your cash grow?

 

 

 

Yes, I did read where you said the price was only moving because of coinshare and stupidity. That doesn't matter though, because the whole purpose of this topic is telling people to screw themselves out of money in order to fix the GE. The last page you have really made it clear that you personally are not willing to help this cause, and would wait for other people to fix the price while you sit back and reap the profit. There's simply no way around the fact that people want the GE fixed, but care about individual accounts more.

 

 

 

Way to ignore replys like this, mazgar, you [bleep]ing idiot.

 

 

 

And please buy madmanpures junk, will you? You believe in GE values you say, so they are worth what the GE says, right?

 

 

 

I *dont* get how somebody can be this stubborn. You've been proven wrong at least 20 times in this thread.

 

I'd say your read the reply's of Artemis, Soma, Madman and several other again. And again. And again, till you finally understand it.

[Kimberly]

I still can't agree with your bank value argument. You value your bank by the total GP worth of all your items, right? That's lovely. You're in the minority.

 

 

 

Most people determine bank value by items that can be easily sold or bought with pure cash. Because of this, junk trading has thrived. You think it's a stupid process, I get that. But until certain common junk items finally has a DEMAND for them, the price of those junk items won't go down. And since they won't go down, there's no point even putting them in the GE and wasting a valuable selling slot.

 

 

 

So again, this whole argument hinges off a moot point: the value and demand for junk items.

[acenator]

Mazgar...do you mind explaining your stance clearly (then sticking to it)? Because what I've seen from you in these last few posts was wishy-washy. If what you said isn't all off the wall, then you've managed to take your own thread miles off topic, or as best as I can see it. You started with a clear advocation against junk trading. I support that. Where is it going now? Where are you taking it?

 

 

 

To everyone else - I don't think that the whole issue of junk trading will ever come to an end, not until players can see that offering cash to "balance" the trade, even if they're receiving cash in return, is no more fundamentally different than offering 92,000 unstrung maple longbows. Both items have value on the GE (ironically, GP is 1:1), and both can be used to fluff up a trade. Now suppose that there was a way to ensure that you could get at least 75% of that junk's worth. [Warning]Math[/b] on test -- Maple unstrung longbows: 144gp. 92,000 x 144 = 13,248,000. 75% of 13,248,000 = 9,936,000.] That's the kind of system that I would like to see implemented in exchange for eradicating junk as trade fodder.

 

 

 

If it's junk, it's worthless to players, but worth something to the GE. That's the whole concept of junk trades. I'm not naive, I know that there are some items that are kind of off with the GE, but the chances are if we had more actual cash to work with instead of junk, we'd be more inclined to use the GE for most trades anyway, and the prices would start to adjust themselves.

 

 

 

Repeating myself, I'd like to see some sort of black-hole system implemented in which stores, which sold the good to begin with, would buy the item at 25% below market value (using the static example, this means that maple unstrungs are guaranteed to sell at 108 a piece). Blocks would have to be in place to restrict the system from abuse, and the system would only sell to a general store provided that absolutely no player-offers were made within 24 hours.

 

 

 

Again, it's no magic bullet, but understanding the problem a little deeper could lead to a better solution than adjusting items, or sitting around, wasting time arguing over econobabble. Sheesh. :wall:

 

How about, instead of using the "black hole" system and causing massive inflation (although, I will admit that inflation doesn't hurt the RS economy much, overall), we just remove the price floors and dependencies holding junk at these inflated values so that it can fall to the pittance it's really worth?

 

 

 

With that, two things will happen: 1) the amount of junk needed to completed a trade will be multiplied several times over and 2) the prices will be able to fall to where people who are willing to sit in a general store selling things will buy the junk in order to make money.

 

 

 

The only downfall is that my (and everyone else's) junk will go from being worth 5 mill to maybe 1 mill, but it's not like we expected to get anything from it in the first place, right?

 

 

 

Also, although I will agree that the removal of junk will help the economy overall, I also believe that it is Jagex's duty to keep prices up-to-date with the player economy. This means that they need to start manually updating prices and bringing them closer and closer to the street values until people start using the GE for them again, and then continue to watch them and make sure they stay up-to-date. That is why they made their infamous "GE team" to begin with, isn't it?

[bedman]

Acenator, if I'm not mistaken, the general store bases it's price on the GE price. So if the GE allowed junk to fall lower, you wouldnt be able to sell your maples for 100+ gp anymore to the store.

[acenator]

Acenator, if I'm not mistaken, the general store bases it's price on the GE price. So if the GE allowed junk to fall lower, you wouldnt be able to sell your maples for 100+ gp anymore to the store.

 

The general stores sell things for either the GE price or the old general store prices depending on which is highest. However, they still buy things for the same prices as they did before the GE.

[Kimberly]

That's not quite feasible either. Neither the GE nor the "street price" can be taken as proper "supply vs demand" prices because of how many variables have to be taken into account. Inflation, as you mentioned; junk trading, as is the crux of this topic; trading limits, which have been also mentioned by you and others; merchanting clans, who are helping drive the final nail into the GE coffin; countless other things that we could take WEEKS into nitpicking over.

 

 

 

Basically, the moment Jagex actually HAS to go in and manually change prices to match the demand for that item and the item in question's scarcity, there is already a gross problem. And because they've already done this, the evidence of this problem is growing and growing.

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to let strict logic dictate market trends because a flat, "This increase/decreases +-5% if it is bought or sold x-amount of times." because it only looks at one aspect of the transaction. It does not take into account the supply, or the scarcity of that item. It does not take into account demand. If it did, prices would be even more easily manipulated than they are now.

 

 

 

The simplest answer would be either to remove all limits altogether, or remove the GE restrictions on certain items--I think Acenator referred o them as "price floors?" Anyway...This cannot happen. Why? Item manipulation, GE manipulation, RWTing! Oh noes!@!

 

 

 

This is why Junk Trading has gone on for so long. Contrary to common belief, Runescape developers are not dumb. Why do you think they haven't really actively done anything to stop it? I propose that they know of this "junk trading dilemma", much like they know of BH-transferring between friends, and they simply allow it to exist. This keeps legitimate players happy, and the bulk of ILLEGAL RWT'ers (those who use stolen credit cards) out of business.

 

 

 

tl;dr: Jagex has essentially two options to fix the GE. One might work, infeasible as it might be, the other is impossible. Since they're choosing not to do the the possible option, they're making the conscious decision to allow Junk Trading to continue; therefore, they don't care about junk trading.

 

 

 

So really, what's all the hub-bub, bud?

[bedman]

so start selling and buying rares on the g.e. help adjust prices to a level where everyone can be satisfied!!!!

 

 

 

i for one certainly will, and will even post pictures to prove it

 

and i encourage others to do so as well

 

 

 

 

No you dont. One page ago, you admitted you would wait it out and let others take the hit. You hypocrite.

 

 

 

Here is the quote:

 

 

 

 

and soma yeh i would probably hold the item for a bit while the price rose

 

[Soma2035]

That's not quite feasible either. Neither the GE nor the "street price" can be taken as proper "supply vs demand" prices because of how many variables have to be taken into account. Inflation, as you mentioned; junk trading, as is the crux of this topic; trading limits, which have been also mentioned by you and others; merchanting clans, who are helping drive the final nail into the GE coffin; countless other things that we could take WEEKS into nitpicking over.

 

 

 

Basically, the moment Jagex actually HAS to go in and manually change prices to match the demand for that item and the item in question's scarcity, there is already a gross problem. And because they've already done this, the evidence of this problem is growing and growing.

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to let strict logic dictate market trends because a flat, "This increase/decreases +-5% if it is bought or sold x-amount of times." because it only looks at one aspect of the transaction. It does not take into account the supply, or the scarcity of that item. It does not take into account demand. If it did, prices would be even more easily manipulated than they are now.

 

 

 

The simplest answer would be either to remove all limits altogether, or remove the GE restrictions on certain items--I think Acenator referred o them as "price floors?" Anyway...This cannot happen. Why? Item manipulation, GE manipulation, RWTing! Oh noes!@!

 

 

 

This is why Junk Trading has gone on for so long. Contrary to common belief, Runescape developers are not dumb. Why do you think they haven't really actively done anything to stop it? I propose that they know of this "junk trading dilemma", much like they know of BH-transferring between friends, and they simply allow it to exist. This keeps legitimate players happy, and the bulk of ILLEGAL RWT'ers (those who use stolen credit cards) out of business.

 

 

 

tl;dr: Jagex has essentially two options to fix the GE. One might work, infeasible as it might be, the other is impossible. Since they're choosing not to do the the possible option, they're making the conscious decision to allow Junk Trading to continue; therefore, they don't care about junk trading.

 

 

 

So really, what's all the hub-bub, bud?

 

 

 

First, inflation is irrelevant. Inflation is the change in the value of money, and therefore a rescaling in all prices. If the system followed true supply and demand, inflation is not a problem at all.

 

 

 

Junk trading also has nothing to do with the true market value. "Street Value" is NOT the true market value, to be completely honest. Street value is distorted by the value of junk and the effort that goes into a junk / bounty hunter trade. However, if the GE price were fixed, then junk trades become impossible, BH trades impractical. Therefore, neither will distort the price.

 

 

 

Third, "merchanting" (Is this even a word?) clans are also irrelevant. If 10,000 merchants each want 1,000 widgets tomorrow, then the demand for widgets has risen. It doesn't matter if they're going to turn around and sell them immediately, because for now, widgets are in high demand. When they drop these widgets back into the market, widgets will be in low demand, and there will be more than enough available. Price manipulation is simply factored into the supply and demand.

 

 

 

The real problem is the GE centralization. Even far before the Grand Exchange existed, clans could manipulate prices by buying out a good and selling it the next day. The difference is that now, you simply go to the Grand Exchange and buy however much you want by typing the number in. Since almost all trades are conducted on the grand exchange, this means that they'll have a much easier time gathering the amounts they desire. However, there is a solution to this too...

 

 

 

I still stand by my original suggestion I made when the Grand Exchange was released.

 

 

 

- Prices should update based on both transactions and offers, not merely transactions. If 1,000 people sell widgets and 10,000 people want to buy widgets, it should look not only at the 1,000 people who bought their widgets, but also the 9,000 who seek to buy widgets but can not.

 

 

 

- Prices should update at least once per hour, if not more often than that. The value of an item can change many times a day, and the Grand Exchange does not reflect that right now. Also, this will allow prices to correct themselves much faster. Take Dragon Claws, for instance. If it takes 48 days for Dragon Claw prices to be corrected with the current GE, the new GE would correct it in two.

 

 

 

- Certain items should have tight restrictions on purchases and sales. For example, you can only buy 2 of each barrows item every 4 hours, and only sell 4 of each barrows item every 4 hours. This applies to the GE only. This means that for typical players, the GE is sufficient. You can go to the GE and sell your loot from the Barrows, or buy yourself a set of Veracs for a Kalphite Queen trip. If you need, say, 4 sets of karils for a Bounty Hunter trip with a clan, then you can either buy 2 sets 4 hours in advance, or you can purchase 2 sets on the GE, 2 sets from other people. However, if you want to buy 30 Guthan Spears because your clan is buying them up, you can do it... but be prepared to spend a few hours in world 2. And be prepared for the price to rise every hour. And be prepared to do this again when you want to dump the goods, because you can only sell 4 when you guys decide to dump them.

 

 

 

- Discontinued items need to be changed. The risk of monopolization is too great for discontinued items. The easiest solution would be to prohibit a player from buying a rare item if you already own 4 or more of them.

 

 

 

- Get rid of price floors, ceilings, and ties. 5 Adamant Arrow p++ should not cost the same as a Weapon poison p++ and 5 adamant arrows. Maple Longbow (u) should be allowed to fall lower than 144.

 

 

 

There are other changes necessary of course, but these changes would solve most of the immediate problems.

[bedman]

Soma for president!

[Kimberly]

 

First, inflation is irrelevant. Inflation is the change in the value of money, and therefore a rescaling in all prices. If the system followed true supply and demand, inflation is not a problem at all.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, even though I disagree since Junk Trading is causing inflation to be worse.

 

 

 

 

Junk trading also has nothing to do with the true market value. "Street Value" is NOT the true market value, to be completely honest. Street value is distorted by the value of junk and the effort that goes into a junk / bounty hunter trade.

 

 

 

Forgive me, but that's exactly what I was saying. Or at least, what I meant to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I don't believe that the Street Value is the true market value anymore, I agree with you.

 

 

 

 

However, if the GE price were fixed, then junk trades become impossible, BH trades impractical. Therefore, neither will distort the price.

 

 

 

 

But since the GE is not fixed, these can and do distort the prices. Which is why "street values" are so horribly wrong.

 

 

 

 

Third, "merchanting" (Is this even a word?) clans are also irrelevant. If 10,000 merchants each want 1,000 widgets tomorrow, then the demand for widgets has risen. It doesn't matter if they're going to turn around and sell them immediately, because for now, widgets are in high demand. When they drop these widgets back into the market, widgets will be in low demand, and there will be more than enough available. Price manipulation is simply factored into the supply and demand.

 

 

 

 

No, it's not a word you'd find in the dictionary :roll: It's slang. Regardless, I completely disagree with you. The reason why merching clans weren't a threat BEFORE the GE is because the market was not dictated by computer logic. The demand created is founded on the basis of a scam. While it is still legitimate "demand", once people start dumping their items, the prices crash to an even lower value than they were before with relatively the same amount of supply. It's just money changing hands, not demand or supply changing, that causes the prices to fall or rise at that point.

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is that now, you simply go to the Grand Exchange and buy however much you want by typing the number in. Since almost all trades are conducted on the grand exchange, this means that they'll have a much easier time gathering the amounts they desire.

 

 

 

I agree, but that's not really what I was arguing against. I'm aware that as goods become easier to obtain, whether through actual production or through trading, that prices will go down to compensate.

 

 

 

 

...However, there is a solution to this too...

 

 

 

I still stand by my original suggestion I made when the Grand Exchange was released.

 

 

 

[hide=Soma's Suggestions]- Prices should update based on both transactions and offers, not merely transactions. If 1,000 people sell widgets and 10,000 people want to buy widgets, it should look not only at the 1,000 people who bought their widgets, but also the 9,000 who seek to buy widgets but can not.

 

 

 

 

 

- Prices should update at least once per hour, if not more often than that. The value of an item can change many times a day, and the Grand Exchange does not reflect that right now. Also, this will allow prices to correct themselves much faster. Take Dragon Claws, for instance. If it takes 48 days for Dragon Claw prices to be corrected with the current GE, the new GE would correct it in two.

 

 

 

- Certain items should have tight restrictions on purchases and sales. For example, you can only buy 2 of each barrows item every 4 hours, and only sell 4 of each barrows item every 4 hours. This applies to the GE only. This means that for typical players, the GE is sufficient. You can go to the GE and sell your loot from the Barrows, or buy yourself a set of Veracs for a Kalphite Queen trip. If you need, say, 4 sets of karils for a Bounty Hunter trip with a clan, then you can either buy 2 sets 4 hours in advance, or you can purchase 2 sets on the GE, 2 sets from other people. However, if you want to buy 30 Guthan Spears because your clan is buying them up, you can do it... but be prepared to spend a few hours in world 2. And be prepared for the price to rise every hour. And be prepared to do this again when you want to dump the goods, because you can only sell 4 when you guys decide to dump them.

 

 

 

- Discontinued items need to be changed. The risk of monopolization is too great for discontinued items. The easiest solution would be to prohibit a player from buying a rare item if you already own 4 or more of them.

 

 

 

- Get rid of price floors, ceilings, and ties. 5 Adamant Arrow p++ should not cost the same as a Weapon poison p++ and 5 adamant arrows. Maple Longbow (u) should be allowed to fall lower than 144.[/hide]

 

 

 

There are other changes necessary of course, but these changes would solve most of the immediate problems.

 

 

 

And I agree, that would be a rather good idea to do. It would probably solve a lot of the GE's fundamental problems. However, while I agree that these would fix the broken GE, they would also re-open the opportunity for RWTing/Item Manipulation/...which is why these changes will not happen most likely. Which is something I've already addressed in my previous post.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

The problem here is we have two people(magzar and maketo) who seem to think "whatever Jagex says is right, no matter what".

 

 

 

You dont seem to understand the reall purpose of junk..... Because the ge says a longbow(u) is wirth 144 gps does not mean you can ever get 144gps for it. You seem to think that longbow(u) = 144 gps. False, it's worth close to 0 gps.

 

 

not until players can see that offering cash to "balance" the trade, even if they're receiving cash in return, is no more fundamentally different than offering 92,000 unstrung maple longbows.

 

 

And when will you see that 92k unstrung maple longbows is really worth 0 gps. The ge says in trade they are worth 13,248,000, and therefore can be added to a trade of, for example, dragn claws, to boost the trade 13,248,000. However, you seem to believe that 92k unstrung maple long bows = pure cash anyway. Which is wrong. In reality 92k unstrung maple longbows = 0 gps.

 

I know exactly what those longbows are worth, had you finished reading my post. I simply know that the GE is wrong on prices that fall outside the bell curve, and I do know that the purpose of junk is an attempt to circumvent the trade limit.

 

 

 

The idea that I was shooting for was a way to liquidate a junk item, by selling it to the GE (and having stores buy a limited amount of it every day), and getting raw cash in return. What's wrong with getting some cash from the junk, as to not punish junk traders entirely?

 

 

 

How about, instead of using the "black hole" system and causing massive inflation (although, I will admit that inflation doesn't hurt the RS economy much, overall), we just remove the price floors and dependencies holding junk at these inflated values so that it can fall to the pittance it's really worth?

 

 

 

Here's why.

 

 

 

There is no 'set value' that prices are based on, with the exception that a price will never rise above a shop's main stock price, or fall below the price a shop will pay for it. Note that shops will adjust their prices according to the Grand Exchange, so it is extraordinarily difficult to make a quick profit by buying from the shops and selling on the Grand Exchange and vice versa.

 

 

 

In short, this prevents the quick turnaround of selling a good that you found for cheap (infamous Maple longbows(u)) for a substantial gain. If that item were really to fall to its real value, players that sold it could make a turnaround of 9 times greater (assuming that the price falls to 15gp per). This also prevents a player from overcharging on an item that can be found cheaper in stores.

 

 

 

I also don't see how it could cause inflation, either. If you're trading the item, then the GE dictates what it's worth. If the GE says that Maple longbows are 144gp each, that's how much they are in a trade. If you're able to get maybe 70-75% of that in cash, then that would be better than getting next to nothing from it in a Gen store.

[Soma2035]

Lady Ninane, having a working economy will automatically invite a certain amount of price manipulation. Commodity traders of the real economy do what price manipulators in Runescape do on a daily basis, and make their living off of it. I don't like it, but I'd rather have that than a broken economy.

 

 

 

As far as RWT goes... let's just say that it won't make RWT any easier. Have you visited cheating sites before? As I have already mentioned, I have been searching for a Divine or Elysian Spirit Shield for a long time now. I have gone through RSOF, the forums of famous clans, and even to a few well known forums dedicated to, for want of a better word, "cheaters".

 

 

 

The truth is, as much as any of us would like to believe RWT has been stopped... it hasn't. While I never did find my spirit shield, what I did find was that RWT is thriving. Many trades are conducted through bounty hunter. Many more are conducted with overpriced / underpriced items (buy my party hat and I'll send you some money). They even have what they call "official middlemen" to conduct the trades safely. Also, Jagex slips up occasionally and creates HUGE opportunities for money transfer. Like the Morrigan's Javelins case. A corrupted Morrigan's Javelin was 5k. A corrupted Morrigan's Javelin with normal weapon poison on it was 30K. A 500 GP bottle of weapon poison, which is easy to purchase because it's a common drop, allows you to transfer 125K. They talk about many other methods, but since RWT wasn't my interest in the site, I didn't care to learn them all.

 

 

 

Point is, RWT should not be considered a factor in fixing the Grand Exchange. Jagex's "war on RWT" as it is called is more aptly called "war on macros." Truth be told, RWT itself does not harm the game. It is large-scale RWT operations founded on gold farming and macroing that was causing them problems. RWT itself is not, and should not be, a concern. Even if the risk were to increase (which it really shouldn't, in fact, better prices will likely result in LESS RWT), it would be a small price to pay for eliminating junk trading, pricing items correctly, and making the market flow more smoothly.

 

 

 

No, it's not a word you'd find in the dictionary :roll: It's slang. Regardless, I completely disagree with you. The reason why merching clans weren't a threat BEFORE the GE is because the market was not dictated by computer logic. The demand created is founded on the basis of a scam. While it is still legitimate "demand", once people start dumping their items, the prices crash to an even lower value than they were before with relatively the same amount of supply. It's just money changing hands, not demand or supply changing, that causes the prices to fall or rise at that point.

 

 

 

Demand and supply do change. You really ought to take a microeconomics course. Demand is the amount of the good that the market is willing to pay for at a price. Even if it's for the sake of reselling the next day or hour, it is still an increase in demand, and the price should increase as such. However, the terms don't particularly matter. I have already acknowledged that this is a potential problem, and the solution accounts for it. Price manipulation is not a major threat if the prices react quickly enough, and the would be manipulators had to manually purchase the goods. Limit the Grand Exchange to a normal player's needs and no more, and price manipulation will not be a problem.

 

 

 

In short, this prevents the quick turnaround of selling a good that you found for cheap (infamous Maple longbows(u)) for a substantial gain. If that item were really to fall to its real value, players that sold it could make a turnaround of 9 times greater (assuming that the price falls to 15gp per). This also prevents a player from overcharging on an item that can be found cheaper in stores.

 

 

 

I also don't see how it could cause inflation, either. If you're trading the item, then the GE dictates what it's worth. If the GE says that Maple longbows are 144gp each, that's how much they are in a trade. If you're able to get maybe 70-75% of that in cash, then that would be better than getting next to nothing from it in a Gen store.

 

 

 

I fail to see how this is a problem.

 

 

 

Let's say a general store pays 100 for each item at minimum, and you can sell 5,000 per hour.

 

 

 

The amount of money you make is 500,000 - 5,000(Price of a Bow).

 

 

 

Now, if bows were 100 each... you would make 0 per hour, and no one would buy and sell them.

 

If bows were 80 each, you would make 100,000 per hour.

 

If bows were 50 each, you would make 250,000 per hour.

 

If bows were 20 each, you would make 400,000 per hour.

 

 

 

The profit margin rises the lower the price falls. The higher the profit margin rises, the more likely people will take this "job", and buy up the maple longbows. The more people buying maple longbows, the higher the price will become. Therefore, eventually it will find a point of balance where some people can make money by disposing junk items for other players, but the profit margin is low enough to keep it in balance.

[craggyp]

this is making me angry, so this will be my last post.

 

 

 

let me start by saying that I have read more demonstrably false statements about the runescape economy in this thread than ever before, and almost all of them were from people who want to get rid of junk trades.

 

 

 

first off, magzar, you seem to be saying that there is no profit in junk. this is true if you buy junk. but no one does that, because there is no profit in it!!!

 

 

 

junk is created as a byproduct from skilling, which almost everyone does, despite the fact that they know most of what they make is not sellable. they do it for the levels.

 

 

 

now they have millions of gp worth of junk in their bank. they hold onto it because they hope against hope that someday they'll get a fair value for it. they know that those items will never sell on the ge. but they didn't pay for that junk, and it only cost them time they were willing to spend even if they never got any money for their work. so it cost them nothing. I know this is true because I have 16k maple longs (u) in my bank which I made myself and which I would throw away if I wasn't thinking maybe someday they'd be useful.

 

 

 

now all of a sudden, hurray! a rare drop! I'm gonna be rich!

 

 

 

I wander over to the ge and, lo and behold, there's my item! but wait, it's only listed as 10m, maximum! what a drag because I know of someone who wants my item badly enough to pay 20m for it, but they cant because of the limits of the ge.

 

 

 

now, this is the key point, so pay attention: I'm not forcing this man to pay for both my items and my junk. I don't have a gun to his head saying "pay me more than the ge maximum." he is willing to do that. he approaches me and says "I'm willing to give you 20m for that item, but because of the ge and trade limits, I can only give you 10.06m. so I am willing to buy a bunch of useless junk that I know you have and don't want and can't use."

 

 

 

now this is not happening in an economic vacuum. there is a reason he is willing to pay more then the ge value. because he thinks the item is worth it. it is useful, and there is a huge demand for the item, so much so that others are also willing to pay more than the ge thinks the item should cost.

 

 

 

so I sell him the item and my useless junk. junk I was willing to work for, that I have, that is worth something, but that I did not pay for. and I get an amount of money larger than what I would have gotten on the ge. this is pure profit to me, since the junk was not doing anything useful, so it had no monetary value and I don't miss it. but I did get money for it because an outside source claimed that the items I thought were useless and valueless are worth something. PROFIT!

 

 

 

what you are suggesting is that I make less money by forcing me to sell my item for 10m. just so that people in the future might be able to get more than I'll get for the item. but by then it will be less rare, so even if I just held onto the item for a few weeks and then sold it, it would still be worth less money. but as an entrepreneur, I want maximum value for what I have. this is called capitalism.

 

 

 

I would also like to add that, in the case of dragon claws, coinshare causes a lot of claws to hit the market at med value, but since there are always so many offers in for max value, the cost of dragon claws is continually going up. by large amounts daily.

 

 

 

in review:

 

~junk does not cost anything. people are willing to do what it takes to make it with no expectation of making any money. so it is free.

 

~junk has a monetary value, but it will never be realized because no one will buy it by itself. there is no point in paying for it because, as you have correctly said, if you buy 10m junk, then sell dclaws for 20m, you're only gaining 10m, which you could have gotten from the ge.

 

~no one is "scamming" anyone into junk trades. they are between 2 willing parties who both understand the economics of what they are doing. one person is getting rid of useless but valuable but unsellable junk so that he can make more money from selling a rare item he has. the other is obtaining a rare that he wants badly enough to overpay for it, and he understands he will receive a lot of useless but valuable but unsellable junk with it, just so he can get that rare. and maybe in the future, if he gets a rare item, he can use that junk to gain greater profits. or he can just dump it, since all he really wanted was the rare, and would have been willing to pay 20m for it even if he didn't get the junk with it.

 

 

 

this is what junk trades are. if the ge worked better, we might not need them. but no one gets hurt, and no one is forced to spend more than they're willing.

 

 

 

what I hear a lot of in this thread is whining. whining about supply and demand. you want the same profit as others get, but aren't willing to do the work they did to get the junk. you want communism, but you're in competition with capitalism. the items cost as much as they do because of economics.

 

 

 

in my opinion, the system has some flaws, but it works. I wouldn't be opposed to some of the changes suggested, but junk trading has existed for a while and all we've gotten from jagex is a few minor tweaks to pricing, and it helps people earn the money that supply and demand dictate they should receive.

 

 

 

so take your own advice and sell your rares in the ge, help drive the price up. but others who have the means to junk trade will continue to do so. it's just how it is.

 

 

 

I'm done...

[magzar]

it seems to me that, at this point, most everyone is agreeing that junk trading is a flawed system and that

 

the liquidation of said junk would prevent players from using it in the trading of rares

 

which would then move to the g.e.

 

 

 

so what i'm not understanding, is why people continue to insist that junk trading should continue if everyone knows that it doesn't work properly why do they still want to do it?

 

 

 

bedman, as for you calling me a hypocrite, you completely misunderstood what i said

 

for a rare item that had a stable price and was showing no significant increase trend, i would sell, with no qualms whatsoever

 

however if i looked at g.e. prices for a rare and saw that they were continually on the rise, i would wait until they peaked before selling

 

that isn't hypocrisy, it's good business, if prices are already rising i hurt nothing by waiting until they hit a higher level before i sell

 

 

 

edit: craggy there are some fundamental flaws in your argument, but i'm tired of arguing the point, and other people(such as soma and makoto) are doing a pretty good job of that so i've decided to leave it

 

also people are agreeing that it's a flawed system so there isn't much point in arguing it

 

it should end and be replaced with a system that allows you to liquidate your junk with minimal monetary loss while the rare market should be moved to the g.e. in order to promote a healthy economy and maximize profit potential

[daniels911]

this is making me angry, so this will be my last post.

 

 

 

let me start by saying that I have read more demonstrably false statements about the runescape economy in this thread than ever before, and almost all of them were from people who want to get rid of junk trades.

 

 

 

first off, magzar, you seem to be saying that there is no profit in junk. this is true if you buy junk. but no one does that, because there is no profit in it!!!

 

 

 

junk is created as a byproduct from skilling, which almost everyone does, despite the fact that they know most of what they make is not sellable. they do it for the levels.

 

 

 

now they have millions of gp worth of junk in their bank. they hold onto it because they hope against hope that someday they'll get a fair value for it. they know that those items will never sell on the ge. but they didn't pay for that junk, and it only cost them time they were willing to spend even if they never got any money for their work. so it cost them nothing. I know this is true because I have 16k maple longs (u) in my bank which I made myself and which I would throw away if I wasn't thinking maybe someday they'd be useful.

 

 

 

now all of a sudden, hurray! a rare drop! I'm gonna be rich!

 

 

 

I wander over to the ge and, lo and behold, there's my item! but wait, it's only listed as 10m, maximum! what a drag because I know of someone who wants my item badly enough to pay 20m for it, but they cant because of the limits of the ge.

 

 

 

now, this is the key point, so pay attention: I'm not forcing this man to pay for both my items and my junk. I don't have a gun to his head saying "pay me more than the ge maximum." he is willing to do that. he approaches me and says "I'm willing to give you 20m for that item, but because of the ge and trade limits, I can only give you 10.06m. so I am willing to buy a bunch of useless junk that I know you have and don't want and can't use."

 

 

 

now this is not happening in an economic vacuum. there is a reason he is willing to pay more then the ge value. because he thinks the item is worth it. it is useful, and there is a huge demand for the item, so much so that others are also willing to pay more than the ge thinks the item should cost.

 

 

 

so I sell him the item and my useless junk. junk I was willing to work for, that I have, that is worth something, but that I did not pay for. and I get an amount of money larger than what I would have gotten on the ge. this is pure profit to me, since the junk was not doing anything useful, so it had no monetary value and I don't miss it. but I did get money for it because an outside source claimed that the items I thought were useless and valueless are worth something. PROFIT!

 

 

 

what you are suggesting is that I make less money by forcing me to sell my item for 10m. just so that people in the future might be able to get more than I'll get for the item. but by then it will be less rare, so even if I just held onto the item for a few weeks and then sold it, it would still be worth less money. but as an entrepreneur, I want maximum value for what I have. this is called capitalism.

 

 

 

I would also like to add that, in the case of dragon claws, coinshare causes a lot of claws to hit the market at med value, but since there are always so many offers in for max value, the cost of dragon claws is continually going up. by large amounts daily.

 

 

 

in review:

 

~junk does not cost anything. people are willing to do what it takes to make it with no expectation of making any money. so it is free.

 

~junk has a monetary value, but it will never be realized because no one will buy it by itself. there is no point in paying for it because, as you have correctly said, if you buy 10m junk, then sell dclaws for 20m, you're only gaining 10m, which you could have gotten from the ge.

 

~no one is "scamming" anyone into junk trades. they are between 2 willing parties who both understand the economics of what they are doing. one person is getting rid of useless but valuable but unsellable junk so that he can make more money from selling a rare item he has. the other is obtaining a rare that he wants badly enough to overpay for it, and he understands he will receive a lot of useless but valuable but unsellable junk with it, just so he can get that rare. and maybe in the future, if he gets a rare item, he can use that junk to gain greater profits. or he can just dump it, since all he really wanted was the rare, and would have been willing to pay 20m for it even if he didn't get the junk with it.

 

 

 

this is what junk trades are. if the ge worked better, we might not need them. but no one gets hurt, and no one is forced to spend more than they're willing.

 

 

 

what I hear a lot of in this thread is whining. whining about supply and demand. you want the same profit as others get, but aren't willing to do the work they did to get the junk. you want communism, but you're in competition with capitalism. the items cost as much as they do because of economics.

 

 

 

in my opinion, the system has some flaws, but it works. I wouldn't be opposed to some of the changes suggested, but junk trading has existed for a while and all we've gotten from jagex is a few minor tweaks to pricing, and it helps people earn the money that supply and demand dictate they should receive.

 

 

 

so take your own advice and sell your rares in the ge, help drive the price up. but others who have the means to junk trade will continue to do so. it's just how it is.

 

 

 

I'm done...

 

=D> =D> =D>

[bedman]

it seems to me that, at this point, most everyone is agreeing that junk trading is a flawed system and that

 

the liquidation of said junk would prevent players from using it in the trading of rares

 

which would then move to the g.e.

 

 

 

so what i'm not understanding, is why people continue to insist that junk trading should continue if everyone knows that it doesn't work properly why do they still want to do it?

 

 

 

bedman, as for you calling me a hypocrite, you completely misunderstood what i said

 

for a rare item that had a stable price and was showing no significant increase trend, i would sell, with no qualms whatsoever

 

however if i looked at g.e. prices for a rare and saw that they were continually on the rise, i would wait until they peaked before selling

 

that isn't hypocrisy, it's good business, if prices are already rising i hurt nothing by waiting until they hit a higher level before i sell

 

 

 

edit: craggy there are some fundamental flaws in your argument, but i'm tired of arguing the point, and other people(such as soma and makoto) are doing a pretty good job of that so i've decided to leave it

 

also people are agreeing that it's a flawed system so there isn't much point in arguing it

 

it should end and be replaced with a system that allows you to liquidate your junk with minimal monetary loss while the rare market should be moved to the g.e. in order to promote a healthy economy and maximize profit potential

 

 

 

How noble of you. :wall:

 

 

 

Anybody would sell his stable item in the GE. Thats what happening with BGS, AGS, ... all the time.

 

This topic is about items that are NOT stable. Items that are under or overvalued.

 

I cant believe I have to explain this to you.

[Lep]

Wouldn't junk trading be eliminated if General Stores simply bought items for their GE price?

[bedman]

Wouldn't junk trading be eliminated if General Stores simply bought items for their GE price?

 

Yes, but I dont find this a good solution since it doesnt fix the undervalued items. Junk trading will be eliminated, but people still wont sell their divine spirit shields in the GE...

 

 

 

I'd love to see Soma's ideas implemented. Those would at least be a long term and overall solution.

[J35u5_M4]

Hmm, *goes buy 3rd age from ge, no one sells* yeah...Can't use GE all the time can we?.

 

 

 

And, I'm not selling stuff that can I get way more money for. Let's say I sell something for 10m at ge and people buy/sell for 20m, now, if I want it back, I'm sure ge won't sell, so I just lost my money? Junk trades exists there is no way to remove them, unless they bring back free trade

 

 

 

And I bet no one will stop doing it while they know thousands of people still do

[magzar]

Hmm, *goes buy 3rd age from ge, no one sells* yeah...Can't use GE all the time can we?.

 

 

 

And, I'm not selling stuff that can I get way more money for. Let's say I sell something for 10m at ge and people buy/sell for 20m, now, if I want it back, I'm sure ge won't sell, so I just lost my money? Junk trades exists there is no way to remove them, unless they bring back free trade

 

 

 

And I bet no one will stop doing it while they know thousands of people still do

 

 

 

like pretty much everyone has already said

 

the extra money is for the junk, not the rare

 

to actual "make" more money you should sell on the g.e.

 

like has been stated over and over

 

liquidation and profit are two different things

 

if there was a good way to liquidate junk no one would junk trade because they would realize that it is more profitable to trade in their junk for coins and then sell them on the g.e. for the 5% margin

 

even though junk has no practical value to players, it does still have a value in coins, which is what you're exchanging it for in junk trades

 

it's an equal trade

 

neither player is gaining or losing through junk trades