Help put an end to junk trading

[jettrider]

And you really cant tell us to use the GE more for underpriced items, when you are admitting you wouldnt use it yourself...

 

and i didn't say i wouldn't use the g.e. for them

 

but i'm smart enough to watch price trends and see that they're on the rise

 

 

 

So you expect others to take the massive hit in value while you sit back, watching your cash grow?

 

 

 

Yes, I did read where you said the price was only moving because of coinshare and stupidity. That doesn't matter though, because the whole purpose of this topic is telling people to screw themselves out of money in order to fix the GE. The last page you have really made it clear that you personally are not willing to help this cause, and would wait for other people to fix the price while you sit back and reap the profit. There's simply no way around the fact that people want the GE fixed, but care about individual accounts more.

[walka92]

mag, you are impossible to argue with,. not because your arguments are any good, they are quite the opposite, but because you are simply so STUPID you can not answer a simple question with any inteligence. the point wasnt whether you would ubild up the junk but that you already have it and need to sell the "rare" item, using junk

 

 

 

you said you would never have junk because you wouldnt bother to accumulate it; which is quite stupid. often when slaying, skilling, anything really you will come across the junk items, and it wastes no time collecting them, so why not? they can be used for junking later. you have repeatedly proven your self to be an idiot as you simply do not understand properly how junking works so stop your redundant arguments and give up

 

 

 

NOONE in their right mind would sell an item worth 10m on the ge, and 50m street, for 10m when they have 40m junk. it is simply stupid. they are not scamming, as the people buying are willing to pay the 50m. dont pretend you wouldnt do it, because you WOULD sell the item for 50m. saying you would sell it for 10m is a blatant lie

 

 

 

 

 

either way, regardless of what you would do, this thread was originally made to stop junking, correct? you havent convinced anyone. you never will. and there will always be other people like you who wish to stop it. you arent original, and you have no infulence. there will always be junk trading as long as the ge prices are wrong.

 

 

 

get over it

[Artemis1330]

Magzar, I am not saying that i like junk trading myself, as I dont. I doubt anyonre actually likes junk trading except 3rd age merchants. It is simply annoying to deal with. However, it is currently the best way to get around incorrect ge prices, to sell an item for what players are willing to pay. That is the bottem line here. A majority of palyers want and are willing to pay X price, but Jagex limits them far below(or above with partyhats) that.

 

 

 

Don't try to eliminate junk trading. Instead, develop a way to trade that allows players to get "true" value for these high end items, without allowing RWT. Obviously, not easy. But at the moment, that method is Junk trading.

[Nero]

one think you can ALWAYS count on in life is the stupidity of others

 

 

 

Oh sweet irony, how I love thee.

[acenator]

acenator

 

that "idiotic" profit definition is the mathematical formula for profit

 

you can't debunk a formula

 

 

 

and no selling at g.e. price isn't profit

 

but selling it below is a slight loss

 

which you would understand is exactly what i said if you had the reading comprehension of a 4th grader

 

a slight loss from selling junk to stores doesn't cancel out large profits from g.e. trading though especially since using the g.e. to sell rares would raise their market values allowing for even larger profit margins

 

Actually, formulas are debunked all the time. The way it works is that someone comes up with a formula that they think works, and it usually does for most cases, but then someone else comes along and shows that it's wrong in one or more cases and it's discarded for a new formula or modified so that it does work. Now, I'll agree that the formula in the picture is correct, but your interpretation of it is far from true (not to mention that your written definition, the one I was talking about, is completely wrong as easily seen by opening a dictionary).

 

 

 

As for the second part, excuse me for not noticing that what you wrote was actually two paragraphs seperated by neither punctuation, the capitalization of the first letter of either paragraph, nor an empty line. Maybe if you had the writing skills of a fourth grader, I wouldn't have made that mistake.

[canu44]

Look at the Ge prices today as i predicted yesterday that Jagex will for the second time will lower ALL pvp Items, and make dragon claws up 15% has been true.

 

 

 

jagex is trying to kill Junk trading by changing major pvp junk's prices. The Highest a 100 Gp+ item can gain is 5% in ge but both Opulent tables and dragon claws= major goods in junk trading has been gone up 15%. THis is the first of its case and you cant say People are doing Coinshare at Tormented demons or more people are sellign opulent tables in ge, as everyone knows that almost no one does CS In Tormented demons. jagex themselves are killing junk trading. no one buys pvp items, and jagex themselves are fixing a price. the GE is governed by jagex not players.

[magzar]

acenator

 

that "idiotic" profit definition is the mathematical formula for profit

 

you can't debunk a formula

 

 

 

and no selling at g.e. price isn't profit

 

but selling it below is a slight loss

 

which you would understand is exactly what i said if you had the reading comprehension of a 4th grader

 

a slight loss from selling junk to stores doesn't cancel out large profits from g.e. trading though especially since using the g.e. to sell rares would raise their market values allowing for even larger profit margins

 

Actually, formulas are debunked all the time. The way it works is that someone comes up with a formula that they think works, and it usually does for most cases, but then someone else comes along and shows that it's wrong in one or more cases and it's discarded for a new formula or modified so that it does work. Now, I'll agree that the formula in the picture is correct, but your interpretation of it is far from true (not to mention that your written definition, the one I was talking about, is completely wrong as easily seen by opening a dictionary).

 

 

 

As for the second part, excuse me for not noticing that what you wrote was actually two paragraphs seperated by neither punctuation, the capitalization of the first letter of either paragraph, nor an empty line. Maybe if you had the writing skills of a fourth grader, I wouldn't have made that mistake.

 

 

 

 

 

i got that definition from dictionary. com genius

 

anyway you show me one formula that was ever proven wrong

 

go ahead

 

i'm all ears

 

scientific theories are disproven alllll the time

 

mathematical formulas are concrete

 

most mathematical formulas are at the very least hundreds of years old

 

dating back to people such as pythagoras, or descartes

 

 

 

 

 

anyway, walka you just kinda proved my point in a way

 

you admitted that the only reason you use junk trading is to get rid of your junk

 

 

 

and look

 

in determining profit, you can not use the player set value

 

you MUST use the market value as that is the overall monetary standard

 

i fully and completely realize they're not worth the prices the g.e. has them set at to players

 

but nonetheless that is their concrete and unchangable worth

 

 

 

it's like this, i don't thing a bottle of medicine for chemo which costs a few dollars overall to make is worth thousands of dollars

 

yet is is because that is its set price

 

 

 

you guys are still stuck on the argument that the g.e. is wrong

 

which is irrelevant

 

you can't pay more or less than the g.e. says is right

 

it's impossible

 

you can disagree with the prices all you like

 

you still have to pay them

 

(sidenote to the person who said jagex has been raising the price of claws: that's speculation it hasn't been stated by by any mods anywhere to my knowledge. it may in fact be that they have reworked the mechanics of the g.e. for that one item as a test for all i know, in which case terrific it seems to be working pretty well.)

 

 

 

and to the person who said i would be unwilling to take part, that's not true either, if i look at an item's price and see it steadily rising without my input i would hold it. if the item is stagnant, such as third age or others i would off it

 

 

 

as far as corrupted vesta's or whatever, i would pick it up for novelty and then let it rot, because no one wants those for any reason as far as i can tell

 

 

 

anyway seriously the only benefit of junk trading is ridding yourself of junk

 

even though it has no practical value among players

 

its value on the g.e. is still it's monetary value

 

if you don't increase the monetary value of your bank by selling something YOU DON'T MAKE A MONETARY PROFIT

 

 

 

seriously i don't know what's so hard to understand about the fact that where money is concerned you must use an item's monetary value

 

 

 

the extra money you're getting in junk trades is the monetary value of the junk

 

monetary value of junk =/= 0 even though its practical value is

 

 

 

btw what grade are you guys in, and how are your standardized test scores?

 

let's see you put up that information before you call someone who has consistently tested in the top 10% of the nation(pics for proof can be supplied at anytime) stupid.

 

you obviously don't understand the concept that the concete pricee of an item as set by the market must be used when determining profit so i just don't get it

[magzar]

oops meant to edit not quote

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

To get to the bottom of it, you can start at the most fundamental question.

 

 

 

Is a junk trade any different than adding raw cash to a trade? I mean, if you were to add cash to an item to make its value appear higher, would that be in the same tones as a junk trade?

 

 

 

If the answer's yes, then keep on readin'. Yeah, I'm talking to you, mazgar.

 

 

 

The fundamental reason that I'm against junk trading is because it uses plain ol' junk, something which is of absolutely no gain to a person. The value on the GE is simply sleight-of-hand, as most anyone can tell you that no one is going to happily buy your barb-tipped bolts for the market price. Replace junk with cash, and you'll probably have less of a problem. Not to mention, if people have cash, they're more likely to use the GE to conduct higher end trades, rather than let cash fly.

 

 

 

No formulas, no advanced explanations, no quote-trees, no Economics class required to understand this [damn that class; electives are supposed to be fun]. It's a very basic issue, and while fixing it might not be so basic, understanding the fundamentals sure is.

[mmmcannibalism]

Formula that was wrong

 

 

 

I was working on developing a formula to add any sequence of integers starting with anything look up Gauss on wiki or whatever to see the general idea I was trying to expand on

 

 

 

my first 3 or so formulas only worked in limited circumstances so they were wrong.

[Kimberly]

you guys are still stuck on the argument that the g.e. is wrong

 

which is irrelevant

 

you can't pay more or less than the g.e. says is right

 

it's impossible

 

 

 

 

The point is the GE ISN'T right. If the GE was "correct" ie properly reflected demand and supply, there would be no need for junk. How is this irrelevant?

 

 

 

you can disagree with the prices all you like

 

you still have to pay them

 

 

 

If you mean that by complaining alone won't "fix" the prices, much like your complaints about junk trading, then you'd have to be correct. That kind of renders this topic useless though, doesn't it...

 

 

 

if you don't increase the monetary value of your bank by selling something YOU DON'T MAKE A MONETARY PROFIT

 

 

 

Total monetary value of a bank may not all be liquid assets. By adding junk to the offer, you're turning what was once frozen assets into liquid assets, thus increasing the spendable monetary value in your bank. Which is more important than just overall monetary value in my mind.

 

 

 

Personally you do nothing to add to your argument by demeaning those you're arguing against. If anything, resorting to petty insults in debates only confirms your slipping grasp in an argument. Do yourself a favor and stop rising to the flamebaits. If you have a solid argument, present it. If you don't, expect people to come up with counter-arguments.

[walka92]

acenator

 

that "idiotic" profit definition is the mathematical formula for profit

 

you can't debunk a formula

 

 

 

and no selling at g.e. price isn't profit

 

but selling it below is a slight loss

 

which you would understand is exactly what i said if you had the reading comprehension of a 4th grader

 

a slight loss from selling junk to stores doesn't cancel out large profits from g.e. trading though especially since using the g.e. to sell rares would raise their market values allowing for even larger profit margins

 

Actually, formulas are debunked all the time. The way it works is that someone comes up with a formula that they think works, and it usually does for most cases, but then someone else comes along and shows that it's wrong in one or more cases and it's discarded for a new formula or modified so that it does work. Now, I'll agree that the formula in the picture is correct, but your interpretation of it is far from true (not to mention that your written definition, the one I was talking about, is completely wrong as easily seen by opening a dictionary).

 

 

 

As for the second part, excuse me for not noticing that what you wrote was actually two paragraphs seperated by neither punctuation, the capitalization of the first letter of either paragraph, nor an empty line. Maybe if you had the writing skills of a fourth grader, I wouldn't have made that mistake.

 

 

 

 

 

i got that definition from dictionary. com genius

 

anyway you show me one formula that was ever proven wrong

 

go ahead

 

i'm all ears

 

scientific theories are disproven alllll the time

 

mathematical formulas are concrete

 

most mathematical formulas are at the very least hundreds of years old

 

dating back to people such as pythagoras, or descartes

 

 

 

 

 

anyway, walka you just kinda proved my point in a way

 

you admitted that the only reason you use junk trading is to get rid of your junk

 

 

 

and look

 

in determining profit, you can not use the player set value

 

you MUST use the market value as that is the overall monetary standard

 

i fully and completely realize they're not worth the prices the g.e. has them set at to players

 

but nonetheless that is their concrete and unchangable worth

 

 

 

it's like this, i don't thing a bottle of medicine for chemo which costs a few dollars overall to make is worth thousands of dollars

 

yet is is because that is its set price

 

 

 

you guys are still stuck on the argument that the g.e. is wrong

 

which is irrelevant

 

you can't pay more or less than the g.e. says is right

 

it's impossible

 

you can disagree with the prices all you like

 

you still have to pay them

 

(sidenote to the person who said jagex has been raising the price of claws: that's speculation it hasn't been stated by by any mods anywhere to my knowledge. it may in fact be that they have reworked the mechanics of the g.e. for that one item as a test for all i know, in which case terrific it seems to be working pretty well.)

 

 

 

and to the person who said i would be unwilling to take part, that's not true either, if i look at an item's price and see it steadily rising without my input i would hold it. if the item is stagnant, such as third age or others i would off it

 

 

 

as far as corrupted vesta's or whatever, i would pick it up for novelty and then let it rot, because no one wants those for any reason as far as i can tell

 

 

 

anyway seriously the only benefit of junk trading is ridding yourself of junk

 

even though it has no practical value among players

 

its value on the g.e. is still it's monetary value

 

if you don't increase the monetary value of your bank by selling something YOU DON'T MAKE A MONETARY PROFIT

 

 

 

seriously i don't know what's so hard to understand about the fact that where money is concerned you must use an item's monetary value

 

 

 

the extra money you're getting in junk trades is the monetary value of the junk

 

monetary value of junk =/= 0 even though its practical value is

 

 

 

btw what grade are you guys in, and how are your standardized test scores?

 

let's see you put up that information before you call someone who has consistently tested in the top 10% of the nation(pics for proof can be supplied at anytime) stupid.

 

you obviously don't understand the concept that the concete pricee of an item as set by the market must be used when determining profit so i just don't get it

 

my point was actually that your either an idiot or a hipocrite. spending hours collecting junk is a waste; and most people dont. it just builds up over time. but anser my [bleep]ing question. honestly. not the "i wouldnt have junk in the first place" type of thing.

 

 

 

and why do you think that the ge/monetary value is what MUST be used for deciding profit? its not a concrete and set value, it does change. but the grand exchange dissalows any rapid changes in the market, which happens in real life, and in runescape before trade restrictions

 

honestly, the real value to go by is what people are willing to pay. ANYONE with ANY inteligence can tell you that. the real value is the commonly agreed on value of an item, not what a scripted game mechanic thinks, regardless of how it enforced. and that is the basis of junk trading. you failed utterly, and anyone else will agree with me on that pont

 

 

 

you seem to stubborn to admit that junk trading is the only way to sell expensive items. you are still stuck on the same arguments that "the ge is always right" "junking makes no profit" and that crap, which are wrong and we have repeatedly broken down as to why they are wrong.

[magzar]

To get to the bottom of it, you can start at the most fundamental question.

 

 

 

Is a junk trade any different than adding raw cash to a trade? I mean, if you were to add cash to an item to make its value appear higher, would that be in the same tones as a junk trade?

 

 

 

If the answer's yes, then keep on readin'. Yeah, I'm talking to you, mazgar.

 

 

 

The fundamental reason that I'm against junk trading is because it uses plain ol' junk, something which is of absolutely no gain to a person. The value on the GE is simply sleight-of-hand, as most anyone can tell you that no one is going to happily buy your barb-tipped bolts for the market price. Replace junk with cash, and you'll probably have less of a problem. Not to mention, if people have cash, they're more likely to use the GE to conduct higher end trades, rather than let cash fly.

 

 

 

No formulas, no advanced explanations, no quote-trees, no Economics class required to understand this [damn that class; electives are supposed to be fun]. It's a very basic issue, and while fixing it might not be so basic, understanding the fundamentals sure is.

 

 

 

thanks makoto

 

yeh that's what i've been trying to say

 

it's like trading money for money

 

i've never been very good at coming down to people's levels to explain things to them

 

i for some reason expect people to operate on the same level i do

 

your explanation is plain, and to the point

 

 

 

and cannibalism

 

formulas you make up don't count

 

i'm talking tried and true formulas which have been developed over time to be correct

 

it's pretty simple to come up with little tricks to make a problem say one thing

 

it's like saying

 

2x2-2=2 so any number times it's minus itself equals the original number

 

but 4x4-4=12 so obviously this isn't the case

 

it's a formula you made um and it may work in one or two problems but not in all

 

the pythagorean theorem however

 

or the slope formula

 

or the distance formula

 

or the quadratic equation

 

these work everytime

 

 

 

lady it's irrelevant because whether you like it or not you have to pay ge prices for items

 

you can't pay their player conceived prices

 

and no i didn't mean complaining won't fix them

 

i mean no matter how much you complain the prices are still set so unless they're changed you have to pay them

 

 

 

and i already acknowledged that you profit in the sense that when selling junk you now have more usable coin

 

however this isn't a profit it's an equal exchange, even though it's frozen it still has the same value as the coins you sell it for, you just couldn't use it before

 

 

 

and i'm demeaning people because even though i post mathematical figures, definitions, formulas, and sound reasoning behind my arguments, people continue to argue against me by saying the g.e. is wrong

 

but yeh trading in frozen assets for liquid assets is smart business-wise but it's not making a profit

 

 

 

the people who came up with junk trading i have to admit were pretty clever in finding a way to liquidate those assets and convince players that was not all it was doing, absolute genius as far as i'm concerned because to believe it actually increases the value of the rare is ridiculous, and the mark of a true genius is that he can convince people that a stupid concept is totally sound

 

 

 

walka you have to use it's monetary value because the player determined value isn't coded into the game you can't choose your own price for an item and have the game recognize it so you can't make the game think that your price is the correct price

 

the game thinks the correct prices are those of the g.e. and what the game thinks overrules what the players think

 

 

 

and i NEVER said the g.e. was right, i said that we are forced to accept it's prices whether they are right or wrong

 

i don't think they're right either but you can't get around them

 

 

 

makoto summed it up beautifully

 

 

 

it's the exact same as selling an item and coins for more coins

 

or say you're from europe and you have 15000 euro's

 

you come to america and they're useless here

 

no one wants them and you can't do anything with them

 

so you go to an exchange office and get their exact value in american dollars

 

you haven't made a profit even though in america the euro is junk

 

 

 

edit: walka....your economics are flawed

 

you can't use a player made real value in economics

 

even though that's it's value to players, the market prevents you from using it

 

so it's useless in determining real figures

[acenator]

i got that definition from dictionary. com genius

 

anyway you show me one formula that was ever proven wrong

 

go ahead

 

i'm all ears

 

scientific theories are disproven alllll the time

 

mathematical formulas are concrete

 

most mathematical formulas are at the very least hundreds of years old

 

dating back to people such as pythagoras, or descartes

 

Your "profit is an increase in net worth" definition came from dictionary.com? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit Show me where on that page it even mentions "net worth." The closest it gets is "net income" and income =/= worth by a long shot and actually goes agianst (like every other definition there) your definition.

 

 

 

As for the thing about formulas, if they're so concrete, why are so many of them called theoroms? The ones that date way back do so only because nobody has been able to prove them false up to this point. Now, I'll admit there are many formulas that I believe to be concrete, but how do you think people got to those formulas? Who knows how those formulas were derived and the processes that led to their current forms?

 

 

 

EDIT: I would also like to remind you that I never said the first equation you provided (the one in the picture) was incorrect. In fact, I even supported it. However, the equation that you "derived" (I use the word "derived" only because I cannot think of a better on) from it ("profit = sale price - monetary value") was, in fact, wrong (not to mention that you came up with it yourself).

 

 

 

EDIT 2: Just to clarify why YOUR equation is wrong, I have two more definitions for you to read:

 

Cost: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cost and Value: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/value.

 

 

 

As you can see by comparing those two definitions, cost =/= value and therefore sale price - cost of goods =/= sale price - monetary value.

 

 

 

EDIT 3: You might also like to take a careful look at the first two definitions of cost:

 

COST

 

1. the price paid to acquire, produce, accomplish, or maintain anything: the high cost of a good meal.

 

2. an outlay or expenditure of money, time, labor, trouble, etc.: What will the cost be to me?

[walka92]

To get to the bottom of it, you can start at the most fundamental question.

 

 

 

Is a junk trade any different than adding raw cash to a trade? I mean, if you were to add cash to an item to make its value appear higher, would that be in the same tones as a junk trade?

 

 

 

If the answer's yes, then keep on readin'. Yeah, I'm talking to you, mazgar.

 

 

 

The fundamental reason that I'm against junk trading is because it uses plain ol' junk, something which is of absolutely no gain to a person. The value on the GE is simply sleight-of-hand, as most anyone can tell you that no one is going to happily buy your barb-tipped bolts for the market price. Replace junk with cash, and you'll probably have less of a problem. Not to mention, if people have cash, they're more likely to use the GE to conduct higher end trades, rather than let cash fly.

 

 

 

No formulas, no advanced explanations, no quote-trees, no Economics class required to understand this [damn that class; electives are supposed to be fun]. It's a very basic issue, and while fixing it might not be so basic, understanding the fundamentals sure is.

 

 

 

thanks makoto

 

yeh that's what i've been trying to say

 

it's like trading money for money

 

i've never been very good at coming down to people's levels to explain things to them

 

i for some reason expect people to operate on the same level i do

 

your explanation is plain, and to the point

 

 

 

and cannibalism

 

formulas you make up don't count

 

i'm talking tried and true formulas which have been developed over time to be correct

 

it's pretty simple to come up with little tricks to make a problem say one thing

 

it's like saying

 

2x2-2=2 so any number times it's minus itself equals the original number

 

but 4x4-4=12 so obviously this isn't the case

 

it's a formula you made um and it may work in one or two problems but not in all

 

the pythagorean theorem however

 

or the slope formula

 

or the distance formula

 

or the quadratic equation

 

these work everytime

 

 

 

lady it's irrelevant because whether you like it or not you have to pay ge prices for items

 

you can't pay their player conceived prices

 

and no i didn't mean complaining won't fix them

 

i mean no matter how much you complain the prices are still set so unless they're changed you have to pay them

 

 

 

and i already acknowledged that you profit in the sense that when selling junk you now have more usable coin

 

however this isn't a profit it's an equal exchange, even though it's frozen it still has the same value as the coins you sell it for, you just couldn't use it before

 

 

 

and i'm demeaning people because even though i post mathematical figures, definitions, formulas, and sound reasoning behind my arguments, people continue to argue against me by saying the g.e. is wrong

 

but yeh trading in frozen assets for liquid assets is smart business-wise but it's not making a profit

 

 

 

the people who came up with junk trading i have to admit were pretty clever in finding a way to liquidate those assets and convince players that was not all it was doing, absolute genius as far as i'm concerned because to believe it actually increases the value of the rare is ridiculous, and the mark of a true genius is that he can convince people that a stupid concept is totally sound

 

 

 

walka you have to use it's monetary value because the player determined value isn't coded into the game you can't choose your own price for an item and have the game recognize it so you can't make the game think that your price is the correct price

 

the game thinks the correct prices are those of the g.e. and what the game thinks overrules what the players think

 

 

 

and i NEVER said the g.e. was right, i said that we are forced to accept it's prices whether they are right or wrong

 

i don't think they're right either but you can't get around them

 

 

 

makoto summed it up beautifully

 

 

 

it's the exact same as selling an item and coins for more coins

 

or say you're from europe and you have 15000 euro's

 

you come to america and they're useless here

 

no one wants them and you can't do anything with them

 

so you go to an exchange office and get their exact value in american dollars

 

you haven't made a profit even though in america the euro is junk

 

problem with that: they are all currencies that are easily exchangable, through exchange offices. junk in rs is NOT easily exchangable. until they use junk to bulk up a trade it may as well be worth sweet [bleep] all because it can not be used as a currency to buy from the runescape shops, you can not use it yourself, and noone will buy if for both these reasons.

 

also, you can infact chose your own price for an item. be it through junking or bh trading, you can easily bypass the set trade limits if you know what to do, so it is EASY for the players to set their own price on an item. therefore the game does not overrule what players think. you just need to be smarter than the game, to get around it

 

 

 

you never said the ge was right. fine, but you seem to act like you think it is a hell of a lot.

 

now. answer my hypothetical without refering to the fact you would never collect junk. say it just magically appeared in you bank. would you sell an expensive item with this junk. the junk took no time for you to get, and you cant use it in its current form for anything else and noone will buy it by itself

 

yes or no.

[canu44]

its value on the g.e. is still it's monetary value

 

 

 

lets take a modern day example.

 

 

 

A rare 1801 dollar coin's monetary value is exactly 1 dollar but yet its worth 4 million dollars.

 

 

 

A 3rd age mage top is worth 120 mil but its real monetary value is 45 mil

[magzar]

its value on the g.e. is still it's monetary value

 

 

 

lets take a modern day example.

 

 

 

A rare 1801 dollar coin's monetary value is exactly 1 dollar but yet its worth 4 million dollars.

 

 

 

A 3rd age mage top is worth 120 mil but its real monetary value is 45 mil

 

 

 

if the real world had trade limits that would work

 

but that still doesn't effect my argument that junk trading makes no profit

[Nero]

i've never been very good at coming down to people's levels to explain things to them

 

i for some reason expect people to operate on the same level i do

 

your explanation is plain, and to the point

 

 

 

 

It's actually quite amazing how arrogant you are Magzar.

 

 

 

I suppose I shall have to attempt to come "up" to your level to explain why you are so completely wrong about this.

 

 

 

take addy javelins k? theyr like 130gp MAX in ge

 

does anyone use them? no

 

are they really good for anything? no

 

does anyone buy them in the ge? NO

 

but why not? because theyr completly useless

 

so theyr prices stay static yea, they dont go yp or down, theyr at the same price as addy arros even tho addy arros r way better

 

but really, theyr worth around 50gp MAX

 

what u hav 2 understand is that the market is driven by players

 

the ge determines the prices, but ultimately the players drive the market

 

does the ge go out n slay dag kings for d axes? no...the players do

 

does the ge buy said d axes? nop....the players do

 

hopefully, there shud be a little light at the back of your massive oversized brain that mayybe is clicking on

 

the ge is flawed. in order for the prices of junk to go down, ppl hav 2 start buying said junk from the ge

 

but the stuff is useless, so why waste the money?

 

so the value remains hyper inflated, and a new market opens up to exploit the items pricey worthlessness

 

but u no dat rite? we ben hammerin ds stuff into ur hed fer like 12 [bleep]ING PAGES NOW FOR CHRIT'S SAKE

 

sorry, got a bit tussled, where was i?

 

oh yes

 

so

 

since the market is ultimately determined by the player, the value of items is also determined by the player

 

for the most part, we're satisfied with the ge prices

 

but occasionly they're either wayy too low or way to high, so we have to adapt to that

 

what you dont seem to understand is that junk, in no way shape or form, actually adds to your overall bank value

 

junk is worthless items

 

it is items that nobody uses, nobody buys, nobody trades (outside of junk trades to boost gp), and nobody really wants

 

yet it has a high value, and is readily available to players

 

so while the market prices dictates that a 100m item + 30m worth of junk for 130m is a balanced trade in terms of monetary value, the PLAYERS know better

 

and ultimately

 

this is a game of PEOPLE

 

and we decide whats what

 

 

 

There. Hopefully I have "risen" high enough to be understood by your awe-inspiring intellect. Don't ask me to explain again, because it was actually quite painful to write that much with absolutely no mind paid to proper sentence structure, punctuation, or correct spelling. I suppose those things are just for us "dumber" folk though, eh?

[magzar]

To get to the bottom of it, you can start at the most fundamental question.

 

 

 

Is a junk trade any different than adding raw cash to a trade? I mean, if you were to add cash to an item to make its value appear higher, would that be in the same tones as a junk trade?

 

 

 

If the answer's yes, then keep on readin'. Yeah, I'm talking to you, mazgar.

 

 

 

The fundamental reason that I'm against junk trading is because it uses plain ol' junk, something which is of absolutely no gain to a person. The value on the GE is simply sleight-of-hand, as most anyone can tell you that no one is going to happily buy your barb-tipped bolts for the market price. Replace junk with cash, and you'll probably have less of a problem. Not to mention, if people have cash, they're more likely to use the GE to conduct higher end trades, rather than let cash fly.

 

 

 

No formulas, no advanced explanations, no quote-trees, no Economics class required to understand this [damn that class; electives are supposed to be fun]. It's a very basic issue, and while fixing it might not be so basic, understanding the fundamentals sure is.

 

 

 

thanks makoto

 

yeh that's what i've been trying to say

 

it's like trading money for money

 

i've never been very good at coming down to people's levels to explain things to them

 

i for some reason expect people to operate on the same level i do

 

your explanation is plain, and to the point

 

 

 

and cannibalism

 

formulas you make up don't count

 

i'm talking tried and true formulas which have been developed over time to be correct

 

it's pretty simple to come up with little tricks to make a problem say one thing

 

it's like saying

 

2x2-2=2 so any number times it's minus itself equals the original number

 

but 4x4-4=12 so obviously this isn't the case

 

it's a formula you made um and it may work in one or two problems but not in all

 

the pythagorean theorem however

 

or the slope formula

 

or the distance formula

 

or the quadratic equation

 

these work everytime

 

 

 

lady it's irrelevant because whether you like it or not you have to pay ge prices for items

 

you can't pay their player conceived prices

 

and no i didn't mean complaining won't fix them

 

i mean no matter how much you complain the prices are still set so unless they're changed you have to pay them

 

 

 

and i already acknowledged that you profit in the sense that when selling junk you now have more usable coin

 

however this isn't a profit it's an equal exchange, even though it's frozen it still has the same value as the coins you sell it for, you just couldn't use it before

 

 

 

and i'm demeaning people because even though i post mathematical figures, definitions, formulas, and sound reasoning behind my arguments, people continue to argue against me by saying the g.e. is wrong

 

but yeh trading in frozen assets for liquid assets is smart business-wise but it's not making a profit

 

 

 

the people who came up with junk trading i have to admit were pretty clever in finding a way to liquidate those assets and convince players that was not all it was doing, absolute genius as far as i'm concerned because to believe it actually increases the value of the rare is ridiculous, and the mark of a true genius is that he can convince people that a stupid concept is totally sound

 

 

 

walka you have to use it's monetary value because the player determined value isn't coded into the game you can't choose your own price for an item and have the game recognize it so you can't make the game think that your price is the correct price

 

the game thinks the correct prices are those of the g.e. and what the game thinks overrules what the players think

 

 

 

and i NEVER said the g.e. was right, i said that we are forced to accept it's prices whether they are right or wrong

 

i don't think they're right either but you can't get around them

 

 

 

makoto summed it up beautifully

 

 

 

it's the exact same as selling an item and coins for more coins

 

or say you're from europe and you have 15000 euro's

 

you come to america and they're useless here

 

no one wants them and you can't do anything with them

 

so you go to an exchange office and get their exact value in american dollars

 

you haven't made a profit even though in america the euro is junk

 

problem with that: they are all currencies that are easily exchangable, through exchange offices. junk in rs is NOT easily exchangable. until they use junk to bulk up a trade it may as well be worth sweet [bleep] all because it can not be used as a currency to buy from the runescape shops, you can not use it yourself, and noone will buy if for both these reasons.

 

also, you can infact chose your own price for an item. be it through junking or bh trading, you can easily bypass the set trade limits if you know what to do, so it is EASY for the players to set their own price on an item. therefore the game does not overrule what players think. you just need to be smarter than the game, to get around it

 

 

 

you never said the ge was right. fine, but you seem to act like you think it is a hell of a lot.

 

now. answer my hypothetical without refering to the fact you would never collect junk. say it just magically appeared in you bank. would you sell an expensive item with this junk. the junk took no time for you to get, and you cant use it in its current form for anything else and noone will buy it by itself

 

yes or no.

 

 

 

 

 

if i had it and was looking to liquidate my junk i would junk trade just to get rid of it, and from that point on only use the g.e.

 

because after that liquidation my main interest would be in increasing my total bank value

 

which you can't do by junk trading the only thing junk trading does is liquidate junk

 

you agree with that right?

 

 

 

so once i liquidated my junk

 

i would start merchanting on the g.e. to increase my profits

 

 

 

i mean would you agree you can make far more by flipping masks than you can by junk trading?

 

because that's my whole argument right there

 

 

 

(dusty if junk = 0 then drop it all on the ground and walk away, go ahead do it, come on what are you waiting for, if you agree it can be liquidated for it's g.e. value through junk trading then you agree it has a value, and if you don't then i'm not sure what kind of math you've been learning but something is wrong with it, your total bank value is calculated by determining the market prices of everything inside it and adding it together to the game 80m in junk = 80m in coins even though the junk has no use and players won't give money for it on it's own)

 

 

 

final example and post until someone posts mathematical figures that i can argue

 

 

 

you have 80m in junk and a 10m that people are willing to pay 90m for

 

this is all you have in your bank

 

you junk it for that 90m

 

you now have 90m coins

 

your bank value began at 90m and ended at 90m which is no profit

 

although quite a handy liquidation to be sure

 

 

 

now you have 80m in junk and a 10m rare people will pay 90m for

 

but you decide to sell it on the g.e. for max

 

so you sell that 10m rare for 10.5m

 

you now have 80m in junk and 10.5 in coins

 

your bank value began at 90m and ended at 90.5m for a total net gain of 500k

 

 

 

 

 

you haven't liquidated your assets, but now you have .5m more in your bank value than you did before

 

honestly what i would do if i had all this junk and a rare, is i would do a junk trade

 

liquidate my assets and then with that 90m i would buy 9 of those rares at med and sell them all at max for 4.5m profit

 

that is the smart course of action if you already have the junk

 

but if you don't accumulate the junk in the first place you can spend your time merching on the g.e. for nothing but profit

 

 

 

final statement

 

junk trading = great for liquidation of assets

 

g.e. = great for making a profit

 

 

 

should liquidation of assets have anything whatsoever to do with the rare market, NO!

[Madmanpur3]

How is this thread not locked yet?

 

 

 

P.S. - Magzar, I have [what I consider to be] lots of junk in my bank, valued at 10 million gp according to the Grand Exchange. I am personally willing to let you buy as much of it as you possibly can, for pure cash. Now, if you truly believe that what you've said in your past 20+ essays on this thread is true then you will have no problem buying my 'junk' since you won't be losing anything (because according to you, junk is as good as pure cash). However, if you decide not to buy my 'junk' then will you please just end this thread for the sake of everyone's sanity?

[Nero]

I really don't understand how you fail to grasp such a simple concept Magzar.

[walka92]

yes, if you did sell a rare item with junk and continued to use only the ge as much as possible, that would be fair enough.

 

my point was, that using junk to sell an item for more when possible, saves you from a potential huge loss use useable assets, by selling an item cheap and keeping the junk.

 

 

 

and also, generally people dont use junk trading as their main income; they simply passivly colelct it on the off chance that it may come in handy

 

 

 

im sure you can also understand that, right?

 

 

 

not going into your argument against dusty as much, but you said you always had a 90m bank value, street and ge, but the street value is all in the single rare item; noone buys junk by itself and it has no street value

[magzar]

yes, if you did sell a rare item with junk and continued to use only the ge as much as possible, that would be fair enough.

 

my point was, that using junk to sell an item for more when possible, saves you from a potential huge loss use useable assets, by selling an item cheap and keeping the junk.

 

 

 

and also, generally people dont use junk trading as their main income; they simply passivly colelct it on the off chance that it may come in handy

 

 

 

im sure you can also understand that, right?

 

 

 

not going into your argument against dusty as much, but you said you always had a 90m bank value, street and ge, but the street value is all in the single rare item; noone buys junk by itself and it has no street value

 

 

 

 

 

lulz walka we've been agreeing this whole damn time what the hell

 

we both agree that the value in junk trading is in getting something useful from something useless and not in making profit off the rare

 

wow how confusing this has been when we both have the same stance #-o

 

i mean you agree that if we could liquidate our junk in another way without loss it would just be better to use the g.e. right?

[walka92]

yes, if you did sell a rare item with junk and continued to use only the ge as much as possible, that would be fair enough.

 

my point was, that using junk to sell an item for more when possible, saves you from a potential huge loss use useable assets, by selling an item cheap and keeping the junk.

 

 

 

and also, generally people dont use junk trading as their main income; they simply passivly colelct it on the off chance that it may come in handy

 

 

 

im sure you can also understand that, right?

 

 

 

not going into your argument against dusty as much, but you said you always had a 90m bank value, street and ge, but the street value is all in the single rare item; noone buys junk by itself and it has no street value

 

 

 

 

 

lulz walka we've been agreeing this whole damn time what the hell

 

we both agree that the value in junk trading is in getting something useful from something useless and not in making profit off the rare

 

wow how confusing this has been when we both have the same stance #-o

 

i mean you agree that if we could liquidate our junk in another way without loss it would just be better to use the g.e. right?

 

first off, this is mainly coz i pursue conflict, its part of my personality and i cant help it XD

 

 

 

our main problem has been how we define our profits in junking, really. my stance has *slightly* changed in this overtime though, haha

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Mazgar...do you mind explaining your stance clearly (then sticking to it)? Because what I've seen from you in these last few posts was wishy-washy. If what you said isn't all off the wall, then you've managed to take your own thread miles off topic, or as best as I can see it. You started with a clear advocation against junk trading. I support that. Where is it going now? Where are you taking it?

 

 

 

To everyone else - I don't think that the whole issue of junk trading will ever come to an end, not until players can see that offering cash to "balance" the trade, even if they're receiving cash in return, is no more fundamentally different than offering 92,000 unstrung maple longbows. Both items have value on the GE (ironically, GP is 1:1), and both can be used to fluff up a trade. Now suppose that there was a way to ensure that you could get at least 75% of that junk's worth. [Warning]Math[/b] on test -- Maple unstrung longbows: 144gp. 92,000 x 144 = 13,248,000. 75% of 13,248,000 = 9,936,000.] That's the kind of system that I would like to see implemented in exchange for eradicating junk as trade fodder.

 

 

 

If it's junk, it's worthless to players, but worth something to the GE. That's the whole concept of junk trades. I'm not naive, I know that there are some items that are kind of off with the GE, but the chances are if we had more actual cash to work with instead of junk, we'd be more inclined to use the GE for most trades anyway, and the prices would start to adjust themselves.

 

 

 

Repeating myself, I'd like to see some sort of black-hole system implemented in which stores, which sold the good to begin with, would buy the item at 25% below market value (using the static example, this means that maple unstrungs are guaranteed to sell at 108 a piece). Blocks would have to be in place to restrict the system from abuse, and the system would only sell to a general store provided that absolutely no player-offers were made within 24 hours.

 

 

 

Again, it's no magic bullet, but understanding the problem a little deeper could lead to a better solution than adjusting items, or sitting around, wasting time arguing over econobabble. Sheesh. :wall: