Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[forestfrolic]

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

 

 

 

I'm no expert, but the price in the Grand Exchange also plummets when clans merchant thus leaving everybody that wasn't taking part in the action at a big loss.

 

 

 

 

 

For the uninformed sure, I do a large majority of my buying when an item crashes, raw armor and raw materials especially materials will almost always go up.

 

 

 

That's great that you're informed and smart. But the average player isn't.

[magzar]

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

 

 

 

I'm no expert, but the price in the Grand Exchange also plummets when clans merchant thus leaving everybody that wasn't taking part in the action at a big loss.

 

 

 

 

 

For the uninformed sure, I do a large majority of my buying when an item crashes, raw armor and raw materials especially materials will almost always go up.

 

 

 

That's great that you're informed and smart. But the average player isn't.

 

 

 

I agree. Most players never look at the G.E. graphs. Those are solely for the benefit of merchants. what's unfortunate is that clan manipulators also use them to abuse the system.

[forestfrolic]

Today shall be known as Mod Mat K appreciation day. Let's start a fan club. \

[Poppet]

Maybe my pet rabbit Fluffy by all odds went into the Grand Exchange then to the trapdoor went in ate all the Limpwurt roots made the system say that more were being sold than they need to and escaped to buy carrot stalks.

[forestfrolic]

Maybe my pet rabbit Fluffy by all odds went into the Grand Exchange then to the trapdoor went in ate all the Limpwurt roots made the system say that more were being sold than they need to and escaped to buy carrot stalks.

 

 

 

Probably. Send that to Mod Mat K so he can give the revolting merch clans a good reason.

[unjustblood]

Snapdragon is a luxury, not a need, you can level with other goods.

 

 

 

Too many people mistake luxury for needs.

 

 

 

Id love to know how you deduce for another player what is a luxury and what is a need, double so in a GAME.

[Lordjake]

I personally hope Jagex had a hand in this.

[acenator]

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

 

You forget the fact that they also differ in that lone merchants just play off of real supply and demand while clans monopolize the supply in order to make their own demand, make life harder and more expensive for anyone else trying to get whatever they're buying out, and then screw over any members not on when the dump happens (or, more likely, any members who don't dump early).

 

 

 

Yes, you can also profit off of these clans by buying after the dump when prices drop below what they were before or by selling items during the buyout, but, overall, they do more harm than good.

 

 

 

Now, I agree that free markets that can easily operate off of supply and demand with little government intervention (government, in my opinion, should really only get involved in the economy to stop fraud and monopolies*) are a great idea and work better than any socialist system out there. My problem is that these clans aren't working off of supply and demand, but, rather, form a monopoly on an item to create an "artificial" demand in order to push prices up and make a profit off of regular 'Scapers and the clanmembers who get screwed during the dump.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*There are also some other situations that should warrant government intervention, but they are relatively minor and that discussion belongs in Off Topic.

[RSBDavid]

I would like to say that I don't agree nor disagree with Manipulator/Merching clans. They do some good, but yet they do bad too. Jagex has every right to touch the prices of items at their leisure.

[magzar]

he may actually be telling the truth though.

 

 

 

The way I see it is, say players had offers in a med or even min before the buyout. Then some people dumped early, for min. Wouldn't it make sense that those older, lower offers would get served before the more recent ones, even though they are for max? Otherwise no one would ever be able to buy anything for below max.

 

 

 

Obviously none of us know exactly how buying and selling is prioritized on the G.E. Couldn't this be a viable option?

[Master_Smither]

So I did some reading and found something very interesting. Good fight price manipulators.

 

 

 

What affects the price of items?

 

 

 

As you buy and sell, you'll probably notice that items have a tendency to change price. This is based on how much value players put on those items. If an item is hard to get and very useful, you'll probably see its price increase, as buyers are willing to pay more to make sure they get some, and sellers set the selling price higher than the average.

 

 

 

This is also true of common, less useful items, which may decrease in value.

 

 

 

This is called the Law of Supply and Demand.

 

If an item is in high demand with low supply, the price will increase.

 

If an item is in low demand with high supply, the price will decrease.

 

If the demand for an item is matched by its supply, the price will remain fairly constant.

 

 

 

Because you can normally only bid 5% above or below the average price of an item, you'll find that there is little risk of an item's price plummeting or skyrocketing too rapidly. This makes it harder for players to manipulate prices and ensures that everyone gets a fair deal.

 

 

 

Prices are entirely set by players trading! There is no 'set value' that prices are based on, with the exception that a price will never rise above a shop's main stock price, or fall below the price a shop will pay for it. Note that shops will adjust their prices according to the Grand Exchange, so it is extraordinarily difficult to make a quick profit by buying from the shops and selling on the Grand Exchange and vice versa.

 

 

 

The prices items sell at are therefore not set by Jagex but by the players themselves! We are keen to keep a player-driven economy, so the prices are worked out using the supply and demand rules above. We will only intervene as a last resort, and only if we think price manipulation is going on, although the system has lots of safeguards to prevent that.

 

 

 

The market value of an item is automatically recalculated roughly once per day.

[das]

Id love to know how you deduce for another player what is a luxury and what is a need, double so in a GAME.

 

 

 

It's a game with a working and real economic system.

 

 

 

Personally yes, any items that are higher up on the foodchain to level, such as seeds or herbs are a luxury because other herbs do exist, now if you *need* to level herblore for say a quest, and every herb you can use from guam to say irit, is sold out and thats all you can use, yes it's a need then. Personally I myself am sitting on a large pile of irit and avantoe seeds I bought a long time ago (over a year) for 40-60 GP per which is nice. The experience is still good enough that it works at a reasonable rate.

 

 

 

Now 2nd's are a different animal altogether, If you are a level 3 skiller, and can't fight hobgoblins for limps, I suppose you have a need if you have a ton of kwaurm, but you can grow them. If those are gone, then yes it's a need else you can always suit up and go kill for them and skip, it's what I did the last 500 or so limps I needed.

 

 

 

Hot items like snapdragons and gold ore (is that still the fastest smithing xp?) are bad to manipulate because everyday average joes can really screw up your manipulation.

 

 

 

Before the GE. i Did gold ore from 90-99 smithing. It grew hard to buy at 500, so I bought for 550, for those last few levels, I paid well above price at 600 per ore to get it when I wanted it - instantly. I dont have that luxury anymore so thats a big reason why I am not a fan of the GE.

 

 

 

I know a user with over three hundred and fifty easter eggs. He bought them as a collection, but we all know enough one doesn't exist for every player, so is he a manipulator? I'm quite confident he could damage the egg market and "Manipulate" if he sold more, I know for a fact his buying habits in classic caused the prices to rise quickly, manipulating the market

 

 

 

Socially, thats cool because he collects rare items. But it's not cool for a group of 20 or 100 to log in and say "Today let's buy...Red Spider eggs" and they buy them for 3 days, an item you can pick up off the ground in multiple locations on 100+ servers. causing the price to rise, they become bad?

 

 

 

The GE has serious flaws and should be in an auction type format where people can show true demand and supply in real time, not price cap bull that doesn't work.

 

 

 

 

 

It's alot more difficult to manipulate an auction based system over a capped floor economy.

 

 

 

 

 

I personally think it's highly ironic that when the GE came out I know me and some friends were able to buy over 100k+ of multiple type of burnt food products in a periods time.

 

For me to hit the max burnt shrimp allotment daily, makes me think all of the goods are not player made and we have alot worse problems going on than just mean merchanting clans ;)

[RSBDavid]

I like the way you put it Das. I am more of a self sufficient guy, I try not to use G.E. as much as possible, infact I bought all of my logs for 99 fletching only using the G.E. once.

[magzar]

Das

 

 

 

Master smither just posted it in writing, from info on the G.E. that Jagex will intervene if they see Manipulation. So obviously it's against the rules.

 

 

 

gf

 

 

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, what you consider a luxury, other people consider a necessity.

 

I certainly wouldn't ever want to train prayer with normal bones.

 

So for me Dragon bones are a necessity. Some people may prefer to train "old school" and consider them a luxury. It's all based on personal opinion.

[Omali]

I know a user with over three hundred and fifty easter eggs. He bought them as a collection, but we all know enough one doesn't exist for every player, so is he a manipulator? I'm quite confident he could damage the egg market and "Manipulate" if he sold more, I know for a fact his buying habits in classic caused the prices to rise quickly, manipulating the market

 

 

 

You're grasping for comparisons. There's a big difference between a guy who collects rares to collect and have them, and a bunch of players who get together to buyout an item so they can make a profit on it.

 

 

 

Socially, thats cool because he collects rare items. But it's not cool for a group of 20 or 100 to log in and say "Today let's buy...Red Spider eggs" and they buy them for 3 days, an item you can pick up off the ground in multiple locations on 100+ servers. causing the price to rise, they become bad?

 

 

 

Red Spider Eggsactly.

 

 

 

The GE has serious flaws and should be in an auction type format where people can show true demand and supply in real time, not price cap bull that doesn't work.

 

 

 

Price cap works. Now if Jagex cut out junk trading and fixed prices, it'd be perfect. An auction system with no limits would bring back real world trading and trading between pures and mains.

 

 

 

I personally think it's highly ironic that when the GE came out I know me and some friends were able to buy over 100k+ of multiple type of burnt food products in a periods time.

 

For me to hit the max burnt shrimp allotment daily, makes me think all of the goods are not player made and we have alot worse problems going on than just mean merchanting clans ;)

 

 

 

How is that ironic?

 

 

 

I want it in the game rules or the terms of service for me to consider it a cannon rule. Infact, if it was "illegal" wouldn't the RSOF forum mods lock the merchant clan recruitment posts that are easily found?

 

 

 

Threads are locked on the RSOF for suspect price manipulation. As for the clans, Jagex has been known to keep watch on them, and it appears they've finally devised a way to annoy them out of business.

[das]

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

.

 

No shame in having a fun time arguing.

 

 

 

Life isn't fun if you read 900030303 posts of "LOL I WUB MOD MAT K"

[strilmus]

Well...

 

 

 

This is really about whether we want to protect the everyday person from being cut off from parts of the game that they have to be "smart enough" to access, or if they really just don't deserve it and things will sort it out in the long run.

 

 

 

Which is the more right? Is it even about that anymore? Is manipulation wrong, or is it just another aspect of the natural order? You could define one side as being deviant from the natural order, and the other side the correct path, and on the other hand their collective actions could be considered entirely normal and is unfolding as it should, or will.

 

 

 

So, from an amoral standpoint......Jagex has about an equal right to try to control the game as much as the manipulators will try to control it back.

 

 

 

I, for one, am amused by these events and will accept the fact that watermelon growing is hugely impractical on the wallet now that I have decided that they can go **** with each other all they want as long as I get to watch.

 

 

 

There's no point bickering over these things if they're going to happen anyway.....I say sit back and try to enjoy it rather than try to fight something that you can't fight.

[Omali]

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

.

 

No shame in having a fun time arguing.

 

 

 

Life isn't fun if you read 900030303 posts of "LOL I WUB MOD MAT K"

 

 

 

Listen to this man. The truth he speaks.

[das]

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

.

 

No shame in having a fun time arguing.

 

 

 

Life isn't fun if you read 900030303 posts of "LOL I WUB MOD MAT K"

 

 

 

Listen to this man. The truth he speaks.

 

 

 

Thanks. :-D

 

 

 

You are right though, Was grasping for straws with the easter egg one :P. But saw a moment of opportunity for some fun so I went for it.

 

 

 

I will say if he did edit that topic, as someone who runs a forum, if one of my moderators changed a topic to mock the posters regardless of what they were upset over, i'd be speaking with that mod in the morning.

[ReapMe]

lol mat k is toying with them

[EGmaestro]

the cc for that mech clan is called goldmerch if any1 wants to watch them complain

 

 

 

i think its kinda funny

[magzar]

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

.

 

No shame in having a fun time arguing.

 

 

 

Life isn't fun if you read 900030303 posts of "LOL I WUB MOD MAT K"

 

 

 

Listen to this man. The truth he speaks.

 

 

 

Thanks. :-D

 

 

 

You are right though, Was grasping for straws with the easter egg one :P. But saw a moment of opportunity for some fun so I went for it.

 

 

 

I will say if he did edit that topic, as someone who runs a forum, if one of my moderators changed a topic to mock the posters regardless of what they were upset over, i'd be speaking with that mod in the morning.

 

 

 

Lulz, as some of you may have noticed from some of my other posts, I've always up for a bit of argument. Tbh i was just poking a little fun at you Das.

 

 

 

Still I'm totally against manipulation. The only reason I don't solo merch is that I don't really have the capital or the patience for it. I'm the type who buys at max and sells at min just to make things quicker.

[magzar]

sorry to double post again but i just read this

 

 

 

Mod Mat K

 

Jagex Mod

 

 

 

 

 

05-Jun-2009 21:18:23

 

Last edited on 05-Jun-2009 21:22:06 by Mod Mat K

 

Now, this is interesting:

 

 

 

"Why not do this to swamp lizards or ring of wealths?

 

Why did you single us out? "

 

 

 

I am guessing that these are two other items being mechanted. So, from this I think you can deduce that we haven't been targeting merchanted items (otherwise these may have dropped) and that our policy towards merchanting clans hasn't changed.

 

 

 

One thing that hasn't been discussed is sabotage... if I were in a rival merchanting clan, I would devise a way to force the price of your merchanted item down again. So, when I find out that you are merchanting limps, I would try to buy some at mid price and leave the offer on until the mid price gets close to the low price. With the offer on for so long, it gets to the top of the queue. In the meantime, I have been harvesting limps. At the right time, I flood the market at the low price, and the low offers get the limps.. not the people trying to buy them at the high price. Is this me just being underhanded? Or is there a better way to lower the price?

 

 

 

Mat.

 

 

 

 

 

That confirmed what i was saying earlier about offers being first come first served. It seems most people thing that the highest offer gets priority, but from what he said there, the offer that has been up the longest gets it. The people who all had offers in at max wouldn't get any if other people had offers in for min since before the max offers were put in, so long as someone dumped at min. Everyone seems to assume that a dump would have been for max.....

 

 

 

I think Mat really may be telling the truth that there was no intervention. Are we seeing merch clan wars starting?

[Torlen]

Snapdragon is a luxury, not a need, you can level with other goods.

 

 

 

Too many people mistake luxury for needs.

 

 

 

 

I forgot that I don't "need" super restores at any God Wars except Bandos.

 

 

 

And yes, God Wars is a "need" place for some. Some people do boss fights all the time. Not everyone plays the same way you do, and in return, not everyone has the same "needs" as you.

[strilmus]

Oh, that makes it even juicier. The "mutually assured destruction between merch clans" angle just makes this much more fun. So drama.

 

 

 

I guess this is the kind of thing you have to expect when playing an MMO....