Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[das]

The person with more money should always get priority over the person with less.

 

Moreover, in the ge, to put up an offer, you do need to have the money in your inventory before the offer can be made. As such, the price offers will ultimately be the same, assuming that both put in their offers for mid price.

 

 

 

Going by the example of a medium offer thats sit for 2 weeks gets priority over a high offer for 1 second.

 

 

 

If someone dumps it for min, it should go for that max offer.

[XxTearGodxX]

Good for these piece of crap merchant clans. I hope they lose even more money and it makes them quit the game.

[Cynic]

For those who support these clans:

 

 

 

1. Explain, specifically, how these clans are NOT manipulating the price of an item just so that they can gain profit.

 

 

 

2. Explain how it is unfair that Jagex intervened when they state specifically state that they are allowed to change the price of an item if manipulating an item's price got out of control.

 

 

 

The prices items sell at are therefore not set by Jagex but by the players themselves! We are keen to keep a player-driven economy, so the prices are worked out using the supply and demand rules above. We will only intervene as a last resort, and only if we think price manipulation is going on, although the system has lots of safeguards to prevent that.

 

 

 

- From the knowledge base.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Always a good trick to get the majority to back you up by playing to the childrens sence of humor. So Mod Mat K isn't an idiot after all.

 

I support das1330 100% on this. If for anything else than just the fact that I like to see people squirm and squeal and get their panties all up in a bunch over something they feel they have a god-given right to have.

 

 

 

As for the same whiners mentioned above, I bet we wouldn't hear one word of complaining out of them if the certain item they themselves wished to sell was "magically" doubled in price.

 

Ironically the only time people start biching is when the item they wanted to sell does not sell. But when it sells, and sells for an unrealistic high price thanks to merchanting clans, you don't hear them at all. Why? They are busy counting their money. The same kids that whine.

 

 

 

And I'm not about to support someone just because he is "funny". Seeing as the main reason anyone finds the said person interesting in the first place, is because he is on Jagex' payroll.

 

 

 

 

 

Information on the GE to the general RS public is obviously on a need-to-know basis. That in itself should ring some alarm bells.

 

 

 

I'd also like to make clear that I have never participated in any merchant clan activities, the 700k in my bank would gladly testify to that.

 

 

 

And whoever questions das1330's abilities as a moderator on these forums in use for an arguement is the real one grasping for straws here.

 

 

 

If you want merch clans gone, you are DEMANDING more Jagex intervention. And in essence you are pushing for a communist Runescape where everyone is equal, and whoever makes more money than the guy next door is a criminal. (not an incitement for you kids to start "in soviet russia..." remarks. you can get the funny guy mod mat k to do that).

 

 

 

Maybe its because he survived an era where 1 single person controlled the economy, that he doesn't see the complete "tragedy" in this case.I for one fail to see it..

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I come across as mad or something. That is not my intention. Things aren't just as black and white as ALOT of people are portraying it here.

 

 

 

And for gods sakes stop drawing parallels between real life and Runescape.. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other with regards to what goes on in-game.

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents.

[sadukar123]

Alright, then stop [bleep]ing that RS is turning into communism.

[acenator]

Why do people believe G.E. prices can only fluctuate by 5% per day when if you look on the front page of the G.E. database there are a ton of items that change by more than 5% every single day?

 

Those items that update more than 5% are generally low-value items that, if they weren't given more than the 5%, would only have a med price or would not have the ability to change by any percentage close to 5%. Items like the batta tin, for example, have to be able to change prices which is why they have a +/- 1 gp price range instead of the +/- .2 gp that they would have if the 5% rule applied to them. Also, items like the big fishing net are allowed to change ~6% or 7% because, if they were to be kept under the standard 5%, they would really only be able to move ~3% or 4%.

 

 

 

Those types of items are the only ones you are likely to find on those lists and, from what I've seen, the only time other items are on there is when Jagex interferes or the GE does something we didn't know it was supposed to do (which one happens cannot be confirmed unless Jagex tells us and that, generally, isn't going to happen).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To train herblore - you bought herbs and seconds and probably made potions at a loss - removing GP from a game that in all honesty, needs more moneysinks.

 

Actually, that's only a money sink if you don't buy your supplies from other players and chances are that didn't/won't happen. If I were to start training herblore right now, I'd go straight to the GE to buy my supplies and all that does is move money from my bank to someone else's.

 

 

 

As for the rest of your example, that is purely your opinion. Yes, you bettered your character's stats and made finished products to be sold, but whether or not that is something you really wanted to do just because you wanted some zammy brews is your opinion.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

If you want merch clans gone, you are DEMANDING more Jagex intervention. And in essence you are pushing for a communist Runescape where everyone is equal, and whoever makes more money than the guy next door is a criminal. (not an incitement for you kids to start "in soviet russia..." remarks. you can get the funny guy mod mat k to do that).

 

I don't care if anyone is making or has more money than I do. Heck, if RS turned truly communist, I'd have to quit because I'd probably lose most of my stuff and wouldn't be able to do anything. I just don't think it's right that these clans are allowed to make money off of everyday 'scapers just because they have enough money to manipulate prices and create their own demand by buying up most of the supply of an item(s).

[FooK-A-Ji]

Alright, then stop [bleep] that RS is turning into communism.

 

In your case, your response truly depicts your knowledge - small.

 

 

 

And to Acenator: If the cow is there, you milk it and you keep milking until there is nothing left to milk. In other words as long as Jagex does nothing about it (verbal intervention is in this case also classified as nothing, until they etch it out in the rules of runescape, which hasn't been done) than people are free to use AND abuse the trading system as they deem fit.

 

 

 

I also applaude those who are trying to get this changed in a mature way. But arguing that "i can't make money because of merch clans" is at best a weak arguement and not likely to change anything, since there are many ways to become rich but the majority are seeking the easiest most obvious way.

 

But what to expect from a generation who has had everything laid out before them on a silver platter.. Can't see the forest because of all the trees and yadda yadda yadda..

 

Such are the ramblings of an old man..

 

 

 

You know, I'd probably be more agreeable on this topic if it weren't for the utter lame arguements really. If one isn't even imaginative enough to argue for something they believe in, they shouldn't be rewarded with anything.

 

 

 

Arguing IRL issues and the lack of being able to sell a specific item at a specific time period (and it is only a specific time period that certain items cannot sell) just doesn't cut the cake I'm afraid. And if anyone had the patience to wait they would find out that all items sell , also at the price YOU want, if you just wait for the right time.. But nooo everything must be instant this, and instant that.

 

 

 

Alright, then stop [bleep] that RS is turning into communism.

 

Also a prime example of how many choose to argue their opinions and/or demands. Although I'm sure it still works with "mommy" and "daddy".

 

"Lets not upset little jimmy, he'll just throw a temper tantrum again".

[das]

Yeah fook you hit the nail on the head.

 

 

 

Bluerose'conomics really are what I'm used too. We all know people like Skone751, Yaurrada6, Pugxsi and Tks had money (Cant forget mctavish too ;) ) But these people largely got money by selling blueroses products - something she never really took the time to do. (I think Yaur bought from pugs actually )

 

 

 

The classic economy for ages was very pyramid based. Rune smiths sold to "Dealers" in a nutshell who often sold to other traders. Now you got lots of cliques buying an item and reselling it.

 

 

 

Even Chewy shoe made most if not all of his money controlling or greatly influencing the raw materials/finished product market.. Even Skone made most of his money doing things like coal and iron among other raw materials.

 

 

 

 

 

The GE should never be an "instant" market because the price floors may or may not reflect the price someone is willing to sell an item for. I know I won't sell my rune larges until I can get at least 60k+ for them. Will it ever happen? Nope, but in the mean time I dont care if I have one - or 500. I'm not selling them as I dont need the money from them. While I may be an exception, I know plenty of people in the same boat as me.

[acenator]

And to Acenator: If the cow is there, you milk it and you keep milking until there is nothing left to milk. In other words as long as Jagex does nothing about it (verbal intervention is in this case also classified as nothing, until they etch it out in the rules of runescape, which hasn't been done) than people are free to use AND abuse the trading system as they deem fit.

 

 

 

I also applaude those who are trying to get this changed in a mature way. But arguing that "i can't make money because of merch clans" is at best a weak arguement and not likely to change anything, since there are many ways to become rich but the majority are seeking the easiest most obvious way.

 

But Jagex has said they will take action when price manipulation is taking place. Have you not seen the excerpt from the KB that has been posted several times?

 

 

 

This doesn't necessarily make what these clans are doing against the rules, but it does support the idea that price manipulation is wrong and that Jagex doesn't like it.

 

 

 

And when did anyone say that they couldn't make money because of merch clans? I have yet to see someone say they can't make money. The most popular argument is that merch clans make everyday items that people want/need for a certain activity(s) unbuyable.

 

 

 

The GE should never be an "instant" market because the price floors may or may not reflect the price someone is willing to sell an item for. I know I won't sell my rune larges until I can get at least 60k+ for them. Will it ever happen? Nope, but in the mean time I dont care if I have one - or 500. I'm not selling them as I dont need the money from them. While I may be an exception, I know plenty of people in the same boat as me.

 

I agree that the GE has problems other than the fact that it allows for this blatant price manipulation, but that is not what we are discussing here. If you were to start a thread to discuss all the problems of the GE, I would gladly discuss all those with you, but right now, the topic of discussion, in my mind, is merchant clans only.

[FooK-A-Ji]

 

 

 

And when did anyone say that they couldn't make money because of merch clans? I have yet to see someone say they can't make money. The most popular argument is that merch clans make everyday items that people want/need for a certain activity(s) unbuyable.

 

I wonder where these items come from.. (The answer is other players)

 

 

 

Could it be that all these consumers should expand their horizon and perhaps think about getting some stuff themselves? (the only arguement is that "everyone should be able to play how they want to, and buy skills to 99 if they feel like it". That is a faulty arguement).

 

 

 

Obviously the consumer/gatherer ratio is imbalanced, consumers being massively represented and gatherers outnumbered.

 

So merch clans or "price manipulating" as some choose to call it aren't the biggest problem and Jagex knows this.

 

 

 

The BIGGEST problem is that there are 10x (perhaps an exaggeration, perhaps not, but the point still stands) the amount of consumers than there are gatherers, and each of these consumers feel entitled to have the item they are bidding on in the GE.

 

So who to blaim when an item takes considerably longer than usual? Merchants of course. But aren't they in essence playing the game in the way THEY feel is fun?

 

 

 

Also please note that anything NOT posted on the front page of Runescape.com or in the rules of Runescape.com is NOT 100% reliable, seeing as Jagex mods have been known to contradict eachother to infinity. Errare humanum est, and they are also just human beings. Not gods, as too many people here seem to see them, and just because someone working for Jagex stated their opinion on merchant clans, doesn't mean anything at all.

 

 

 

Also watch out what all you people are pushing for, because knowing Jagex it might just result in them doing something silly in an attempt to please all of the whiners. I'm automatically thinking of something along the lines of having a trade limit on the GE just like we have when trading between characters. How nice does that sound?

 

 

 

And also Acenator, the topic of discussion is how "Mod Mat K messed with manipulator clans". In other words we are supposed to come here and praise his godliness for agreeing with the opinions of some people while totally ignoring the opinions of others.

 

At least thats what it seems like, since going against the grain here (which das1330 and myself apparently are doing) doesn't get recieved all too well.

 

Apparently das1330 has disqualified himself of being a tip.it administrator in some manner according to some, merely for stating his own opinion on these boards. Maybe we should take a vote wether or not he should become de-modded............or grow up: I can't decide yet ;)

 

 

 

 

 

p.s I hate sounding like a prune but i cant help it in this topic tee-hee.

[Master_Smither]

Seems like this discussion keeps going on..

 

 

 

Heres something from awhile ago I'll repost it :P

 

 

 

[das]

The problem is in the knowledge base Jagex never clearly defines manipulation. Yes i'm being thick on purpose here but right now, I have some items in my bank and feel I could affect the price at least for a day, by liquidating some of my assets. Am I not manipulating. It's a stretch, but we need good communication about the way the GE works, no one really knows for certain and it is a faceless market.

 

 

 

 

 

I do believe fook has a point, we have no clue of knowing the resources gathered and sold vs gathered and kept. I'd really love to know if all of these items are playered created, especially on the raw materials or crap people collect like tenderboxes, do people honestly think noobs or anyone buys tinderboxes and banks and sells them =\ ?

 

 

 

 

 

Manipulation could mean when people tried to drive the prices up on pickaxe handles - they are taking advantage of people by tricking them into believing an item will be rare and limited in the future.

 

 

 

Buying up an item especially a raw material that is a useful asset, is perfectly fine to me. The prices of most raw materials suck. I hate the current prices . you run at a loss on quite a few skills training the best ways, and a larger loss than you used too, but I feel it's more of a general laziness of players gathering items than manipulation. Herbal seconds skyrocketed for the most part when the GE came out because people who didnt put up with buying had an easy way to buy unlimited goods.

 

 

 

 

 

They may make an item unbuyable, but again thats a fault with the system, if you want it bad enough, you should be able to pay more than everyone else.

 

 

 

The power of the GP was greatly weakened with price floors and these guys cause the only real trends in the market.

 

 

 

I dont think you can argue price manipulation without considering the fact the system is flawed to a point to where removing price manipulation won't help "Fix" the economy. i'd counterargue it is the main economic catalyst.

 

 

 

Edit: So MMG thinks it's a problem, thats great, the entire GE is a bloody problem.

[Ollyc3]

Good thing heavy solo mercher's wont be affected, hopefully \

[n64jive]

[hide=Fook's]

 

 

 

And when did anyone say that they couldn't make money because of merch clans? I have yet to see someone say they can't make money. The most popular argument is that merch clans make everyday items that people want/need for a certain activity(s) unbuyable.

 

I wonder where these items come from.. (The answer is other players)

 

 

 

Could it be that all these consumers should expand their horizon and perhaps think about getting some stuff themselves? (the only arguement is that "everyone should be able to play how they want to, and buy skills to 99 if they feel like it". That is a faulty arguement).

 

 

 

Obviously the consumer/gatherer ratio is imbalanced, consumers being massively represented and gatherers outnumbered.

 

So merch clans or "price manipulating" as some choose to call it aren't the biggest problem and Jagex knows this.

 

 

 

The BIGGEST problem is that there are 10x (perhaps an exaggeration, perhaps not, but the point still stands) the amount of consumers than there are gatherers, and each of these consumers feel entitled to have the item they are bidding on in the GE.

 

So who to blaim when an item takes considerably longer than usual? Merchants of course. But aren't they in essence playing the game in the way THEY feel is fun?

 

 

 

Also please note that anything NOT posted on the front page of Runescape.com or in the rules of Runescape.com is NOT 100% reliable, seeing as Jagex mods have been known to contradict eachother to infinity. Errare humanum est, and they are also just human beings. Not gods, as too many people here seem to see them, and just because someone working for Jagex stated their opinion on merchant clans, doesn't mean anything at all.

 

 

 

Also watch out what all you people are pushing for, because knowing Jagex it might just result in them doing something silly in an attempt to please all of the whiners. I'm automatically thinking of something along the lines of having a trade limit on the GE just like we have when trading between characters. How nice does that sound?

 

 

 

And also Acenator, the topic of discussion is how "Mod Mat K messed with manipulator clans". In other words we are supposed to come here and praise his godliness for agreeing with the opinions of some people while totally ignoring the opinions of others.

 

At least thats what it seems like, since going against the grain here (which das1330 and myself apparently are doing) doesn't get recieved all too well.

 

Apparently das1330 has disqualified himself of being a tip.it administrator in some manner according to some, merely for stating his own opinion on these boards. Maybe we should take a vote wether or not he should become de-modded............or grow up: I can't decide yet ;)

 

 

 

 

 

p.s I hate sounding like a prune but i cant help it in this topic tee-hee.

[/hide]

 

[hide=My Views]

I am supposed to keep a month supply of everything.....some people can't afford that. personaly I go through about 3-4 mil worth of pray pots a month alone. I am supposed to keep that much worth of prayer pots as well as everything else..... I don't usually have that much cash lying around.

 

 

 

Then you should join a merchant clan...

 

 

 

btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different.

 

 

 

Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly.

 

 

 

Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased.

 

 

 

I am supposed to keep a month supply of everything.....some people can't afford that. personaly I go through about 3-4 mil worth of pray pots a month alone. I am supposed to keep that much worth of prayer pots as well as everything else..... I don't usually have that much cash lying around.

 

Uhm sorry, but if you use a lot of money each month that means you also make a lot of money each month: try a month to not spend ANYTHING yet do the rest of your stuff.... - You should actually have a spare month now...

 

 

 

How do you propose I do that...do you want me to skip every slayer task where I use a cannon, prayer potions or other expensive things like barrows repair, familiar pouches and scrolls. The point I'm trying to make is that I should be able to play the way I want. I shouldn't have to conform to the boundries set in place by these people who think they are special enough to be able to ruin the gaming experience for everybody but themselves....

 

 

 

This makes me laugh because of the irony behind the statement. Lets see if I can try to get you to see the picture:

 

 

 

First, everyone on this side of the argument, quit acting like merchanting clans are a minority. I don't know the statistics, but it seems like in able to get the prices to fluctuate like they do, they would have to be quite a large group of persons.

 

 

 

Second, you're complaining about the fact these people control the way you play the game, and you propose Jagex fix it by controlling the way they play the game. Wait, huh?...

 

 

 

Like I stated before, if Jagex's system represents a real market, then eventually enough of these "investors" will take a slice of the pie, which will cause competition, and cause prices to begin to balance. However, if Jagex intervenes, it becomes more socialist than it already is, and the government(Jagex) will have all sorts of limitations on trade, which will ruin the game for many, which is what you're arguing the current system does. Therefore, your being an hypocrite. And yes, Jagex intervening in ways like Mod K did(and he did) will ruin the economy because it will cause people to be lose their confidence in the value of their money, which was the cause of: The Great Depression! So as you can see, you need to just wait for the system to either correct itself, or by Jagex in a way that doesn't ruin free trade.

[/hide]

 

 

 

I think it's time we just let this go, Fook. After pondering it, who knows the education of those consistently arguing in favor of Jagex intervention. And your thought is exactly what my thought is in terms of Jagex intervention. The same people whining now because they can't buy their items instantly will be whining because they can't buy an item because the item has been bought the max number of times for the day. (I can't see Jagex doing this, as it would allow any group of people to freeze the market, but it is also an easy programmable solution)

[acenator]

@ FooK-A-Ji: On the issue of the consumer:gatherer ratio, there is no way to know for sure how imbalanced it is (or if it is even imbalanced at all) and, even if it is imbalanced, stable prices (which we generally have), in my mind, mean that there is balance in that supply and demand at said prices are being met (with the exception of items at their price floors/celings or restricted by price ties, of course). This is because, with stable (unmanipulated) prices, items are generally easy to trade.

 

 

 

I will agree that people blame merchants in general for too much, but who else, other than the clan buying out an item, is to blame for said item's being completely unbuyable when said clan is obviously buying up as much of said item as they possibly can?

 

 

 

When it comes to price manipulation being against the rules/Jagex policy, I see your point and will have to concede that it isn't a rule or an official Jagex policy of any kind. As such, my position is that Jagex should add a rule banning price manipulation and my hope is that that is all that is needed to bring an end to it (I don't see how the threat of bans wouldn't discourage the leaders of the clans from continuing their operations, but I guess you never do know). If Jagex takes a more extreme/stupid route, believe me when I say I will fight it just as I am fighting their apparently doing nothing.

 

 

 

As for the topic of this thread, I stand by what I said. The topic is what Mod Mat K did specifically (or, really, what happened on the GE) and how merchant clans have responded. We are discussing this by discussing our opinions on what merchant clans do and whether it is right or wrong. You opinion not seeming to get received well is simply because you seem to disagree with the majority here and I see no problem with your (or Das's) disagreeing with the majority.

 

 

 

As for the question of Das's modship, I see no problem with him continuing to be a mod. Mods have just as much of a right to voice their opinions as anyone else here. As long as they don't express their opinions with bans or the locking of threads, I see no problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Don't worry about sounding like a prune. As long as nobody starts throwing around insults, I really don't care what anyone's tone is.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Seems like this discussion keeps going on..

 

 

 

Heres something from awhile ago I'll repost it :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure it will improve the gameplay for many players.

 

And its nice to see some level of optimism from our new CEO.

 

Can't wait to see his responses after a few years of taking heat, from players who think pissing their pants and ranting is the right way to bring things about, hehe.

 

 

 

My problem isn't that people want clan merchanting out of the game, clan merchanting will always be here. And if any of you are interested in tip.it history you would know that tip.it once started as the base for Steel Corp (or was it steel inc, hmm...), a selective few who worked together to obtain total control of the smithing market in Runescape, and succeeded.

 

 

 

Dmonik, the first player to smith mithril, the strongest armor back than, could control who could and who could not have the games best armor, and at what price they should have it at.

 

 

 

Bluerose13x, Runescapes most famous smither who also controlled all of Runescapes adam AND rune market at a time (meaning the best items in the game back than, equivalent of 1 person controlling all 3rd age items and Godswords basically) did her business on these very forums together with the founders of both tip.it and Steel Corporation.

 

 

 

On these very boards people, the biggest price manipulating/controlling has taken place.

 

Our very own Lightning recieved the first Rune2hander to be smithed in Runescape, worth over 1 million which in 2009 could roughly be considered at LEAST 500 million, since it was far more rare than any godsword or 3rd age armor. All this by help of the oh-so-bad clan merchanting or "price manipulating". (more like a manipulation of word itself in this instance).

 

 

 

Is this a problem? Probably not. In fact I don't think it is at all. Who can blaim Bluerose13x for taking advantage of the situation she and her peers brought herself in? Nobody.

 

 

 

Who can we blaim for the current situation? Helped by an institute provided to us (the grand exchange), some players working together just like the players of old, but in a far more dynamic method, make massive amounts of cash similar to the amounts bluerose13x did. In this case it is obviously JAGEX. Seeing as we did not ask for the Grand Exchange, it was forced upon us to use (or not use) as we seem fit. So for the last time stop blaiming "merchant clans" for playing the game.

 

 

 

Blaim the people who put the advantage (its still a problem, but that is beside the fact) into the game, instead of making potential fools of yourselves and blaiming it on the players for playing, and perhaps understanding the game better than you.

 

I personally don't think we should blaim anybody for this (which might be self-contradictory, but who cares), as I wrote in a previous post; "to err is to be human". So in other words, yes, somebody made a mistake here, but going total banana's over it won't help solve the problem, and blaiming tom, d1ck and harry (merchant clans) won't help either. As long as money is there to be made, someone will make it.

 

Some will be stepping stones.

 

Some will be victims.

 

Some will be profiteers.

 

 

 

These are the only parallels we can allow ourselves to draw between real life and Runescape. Leave the legal junk out.

 

 

 

But most merchant clansmen dont even make alot of money, the leader makes it all, isn't that unfair?? Helping bluerose13x didn't really get you anywhere either, but it made you richer than the guy who just stood around crying over his seemingly helpless situation, thats for sure.

[sadukar123]

You are comparing 2 completely DIFFERENT situations.

 

 

 

Bluerose's time was demand was for real and the supply is almost nonexistent, because only SHE can make those rune items. She didn't limit the supply so the demand would go up from the lowered supply. In fact, she CAN'T lower the supply, only stop smithing them or make more of them, both would not be a good idea, if she stopped, more people would achieve 99 smithing, if she did the second, the price would fall.

 

 

 

Manipulator clans buy out certain items, and create a false demand by limiting the supply, this upsets the equilibrium of supply and demand, and rips off the buyers, and makes the market unstable.

[das]

n64jive - I think me, you and fook all have very similar views, I hate to say this, but I think it's coming down to people who have taken uni level economics or have played since classic and seen manipulation occur and be praised for it. (Bluerose was a god in her time and you played classic yourself did you not? ) versus people who feel it's bad because they rely on others for every item they need and want something NOW.

 

 

 

I've noticed too few disagreements in general as of late, it's nice to have one again and be a part of one. This board needed some spice.

 

 

 

If we are going to discuss the RSOF thread, I can sum it up rather simple

 

 

 

The Pathetic merchants are acting like the spoiled little brats who whine they exist, and Mod Mat K's actions to me as a manager of a customer support line for an ISP and a forum admin, strike me as dubious and somewhat bordering on unprofessional.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

She didn't limit the supply so the demand would go up from the lowered supply. In fact, she CAN'T lower the supply, only stop smithing them or make more of them, both would not be a good idea, if she stopped, more people would achieve 99 smithing, if she did the second, the price would fall.

 

 

 

She limited items made or at least sold, and at times she did stop making items, so the demand would rise.

 

 

 

99 smithing then was bloody damn hard and took an act of god, it took a long time for there to be 2 more 99 smiths. Gormis and Krest, Krest who got stat reduced for cheating.

[FooK-A-Ji]

You are comparing 2 completely DIFFERENT situations.

 

 

 

Bluerose's time was demand was for real and the supply is almost nonexistent, because only SHE can make those rune items. She didn't limit the supply so the demand would go up from the lowered supply. In fact, she CAN'T lower the supply, only stop smithing them or make more of them, both would not be a good idea, if she stopped, more people would achieve 99 smithing, if she did the second, the price would fall.

 

 

 

Manipulator clans buy out certain items, and create a false demand by limiting the supply, this upsets the equilibrium of supply and demand, and rips off the buyers, and makes the market unstable.

 

 

 

I can understand that you weren't present during that time. At least not on an informative level.

 

Bluerose did create a false demand and tried to hold the throne for as long as possible by employing those who could mine rune (she couldn't for a small period of time although she could smith it) and rewarding them handsomely. At the same time demanding either coal, raw lobster (in cooperation with Tks, coincidentally the first player in Runescape to achieve 99 cooking) or new runes (I suppose you know what those were) from anyone who wanted a rune kite (best shield) or r2h (best wep).

 

So to make it simple she had half (more than half?) of Runescape working together towards a common goal. To get her 99 smithing. Why? She is the only realistic chance of attaining the best item(s) in the game.

 

 

 

Notice that she removed the factor of cold MONEY in her business. Why? She does not want players to work for gold. as gold in itself is useless in a time where ITEMS cannot be stored in a bank, meaning a max of 29 coal carried everywhere you go until you find someone who wants to buy it. (hence the creation of mule characters, the average scaper had 10 mules to store up to 300 coal or other items like armor etc).

 

So what are you going to do in this situation? Are you gonna be a chump, and sport the 2nd best armor and weapon in the game? Or are you gonna pay up? 9 out of 10 paid up, and the last guy (the chump) was laughed out of town from the al kharid in the south-east to ghost town in the northwest.

 

 

 

At the same time this whole ordeal made the idea of ones self becoming a high level smith unrealistic, discouraging pretty much anyone with hopes of becoming one, furthermore empowering her project.

 

 

 

That my friend, is not total market control. But just plain TOTAL CONTROL.

 

 

 

Yes, there were people who saw this as price manipulation and chose, as today, to moan and groan on the boards over it. But I still remember a quote from bluerose in response to a whiner who in the same phrase managed to call her a "tub of lard who sits around all day eating" and it goes :"cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it". I think it goes well in this context.

 

 

 

She (bluerose) was also the first to 99 magic, coincidentally she took 300 new runes for 1 addy kite.

 

 

 

 

 

id love to go on. history has always been my favourite subject be it runescape or real world :P but Denmarks gonna whoop swedish [wagon] in soccer in 5 minutes and that I have to see :twisted:

[acenator]

I'm loving the history lesson, but, frankly, that was then and this is now and, personally, if one person, like Bluerose, is the only one able to make something, they should be able to have power over anyone who wants one and can't get one from any other source. Doing what she did took time and planning and skill. What merch clans are doing requires pretty much nothing except for members and money.

 

 

 

As for the "I want it NOW" mentality, I will agree that people should be patient and/or more willing to get their own supplies, but that is still beside the point: people who want to buy something should be able to do so without having to wait several days (or, possibly, a week or two) to do so simply because a group of people wanted to buy up all of said item in order to make a profit off of anyone not paying close enough attention. Again, this problem has two causes: merch clans and the fact that the GE pricing system is faulty.

 

 

 

Maybe I should be pushing more for fixing the GE since allowing prices to flow more freely would make merch clans' influence shorter-lived if not impossible, but price manipulation that defies the laws of supply and demand, no matter the circumstances, is, in my mind, wrong.

[Master_Smither]

You are comparing 2 completely DIFFERENT situations.

 

 

 

Bluerose's time was demand was for real and the supply is almost nonexistent, because only SHE can make those rune items. She didn't limit the supply so the demand would go up from the lowered supply. In fact, she CAN'T lower the supply, only stop smithing them or make more of them, both would not be a good idea, if she stopped, more people would achieve 99 smithing, if she did the second, the price would fall.

 

 

 

Manipulator clans buy out certain items, and create a false demand by limiting the supply, this upsets the equilibrium of supply and demand, and rips off the buyers, and makes the market unstable.

 

 

 

Just what I was going to say. But I'll give some nice examples...

 

 

 

Take dragon claws for a real demand example. They rose from 100k to 40M because they were a great item, the supply was low, and the demand was very high. So it rose naturally and the market was not manipulted.

 

 

 

Now people like Smokin Mils make fake demand and raise prices and they hurt people in runescape. Take limpwurts for example when they bought them out they hurt herblorists and people who used the pots.

 

 

 

Price manipulators hurt people because they make false demand and then dump causing a massive 'supply' hurting the people who collect the product. The only people who win are the leaders who dump on their members then tell them to dump days later. I consider it as bad as people who did team scamming with stuff like hollow reeds and spinach rolls. It hurts the players directly and the only people who benifit are those who start it or lead it.

 

 

 

They are manipulating prices and when Jagex decides to change the price they whine about it even though they are changing prices unfairly too. Seems very hypocritical to me. Either way I see what they do as wrong and when things hurt the players I would encourage Jagex to put their foot down. If they had done this earlier and killed it at the bud and hadn't let it grow into a raging weed we wouldn't have this problem today.

 

 

 

To Fook: Again there was actual demand for rune items and she didn't manipulate to the extent of today but she just controled the market which is different than what is going on today. Bluerose=/=Goldmerch is basically what I am saying.

 

 

 

Das issue: Just because he's an admin does that mean he can't have an opinion different than the crowd? No he expressed his opinion like everyone else on this thread and it shouldn't matter whether he's an admin or whether he's just a noob who's first post is on his thread. They both have the right to post their thoughts.

[Ravenkana]

I haven't read the RSOF thread which created this thread, but if Mod Mat K is truly "messing" with the clans like you say he is, then he needs to grow up. That behavior is unprofessional and, in the context, downright rude.

 

 

 

Furthermore, I find nothing wrong with what the clans are doing. It's not a bug or glitch they're using, but a flaw that Jagex has done little to fix in almost a year and six months. And why shouldn't they manipulate the market? They profit, don't they? It's not, technically, against the rules, is it? For other players they'll never meet? In a competitive environment, what they're doing is just good gaming.

 

 

 

I feel you guys who are praising Mod Mat K and bashing merchanting clans are just like the players who whine about getting Zerg Rushed or, in the context of this game, specced by D claws. You blame the gamers who use that tactic when it is in fact the company's fault for enabling those tactics.

 

 

 

Oh, and applauding Jagex for possibly changing the market is not good. It just encourages them to do it again. And like an ever tightening noose, no one will try to stop it until it is too late.

[das]

albeit wrong, it's a side effect of not having a free market. People will always try to make money, and as runescape becomes more controlling on how you can do so, people will get more desperate. i camped abyssals for 2 months to get charms for 80 summoning. In that time I accumulated a slew of whips and made a NICE stack of change. But you know, it sucked, it burnt me out (i got 80 summoning heh) and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. so I can understand why it's done. especially if you got the cash to do it.

 

 

 

Raven, I agree with you 100% .

[Master_Smither]

To raven:So your saying if there is a flaw or bug in the game that you should abuse it because there is profit? Last I checked people get banned for doing that. Althought price manipulation may not be against the rules in game yet it is on the forums which tells you something.

[britonlongbow]

To all of you saying that price manipulation is simply supply and demand and that there is nothing wrong with it, you are dead wrong. These merchanting clans are creating artificial demand by monopolizing the market for items and the gouging the price. This instability in the economy will have catastrophic long term effects if some regulation isn't implemented.

 

 

 

To those saying it a broken system so why not abuse it I would say grow up. Doing something that is detrimental for themselves and the entire community in the long run for the quick buck because the letter of the law doesn't prohibit that practice is not something that should be encouraged. The problem is the majority of rs players aren't big picture people