Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[canadiansmurf]

"Jagex is a very smart company they will be able to tell someone who merchants solo because they won't invest as much as a manipulator will because they know the item will rise. Manipulators will throw a major junk of their cash pile at an item where solo merchants will throw a part of it so they don't get burned too badly if it goes wrong. Trends happen over weeks or even months at a time, manipulators make something rise then fall over a week's period it's very easy to tell a real trend from a fake trend. Again a real merchant would understand this."

 

 

 

This is your style of merchanting, its not every solo merchanter who does this. What exactly is a large amount of gp? Some people have far too much.

 

 

 

This is not about jagex being smart or whatever. Clearly trade restrictions and all came about because jagex wasn't willing to go through accounts one by one to see who is cheating or whatnot.

 

 

 

And for being a smart company they were pretty stupid about people smuggling out blood runes and addy arrows etc. The artificially low prices of blood runes didn't trigger a warning for them.

 

 

 

Lack of new players? There are tons of new players entering the game

 

 

 

Numbers do not lie, the total number of players playing rs now is lower than pre-GE trade restrictions.

 

 

 

 

 

"Real merchanters" have more skill than you will ever have, the ones manipulating are the ones with true skill, by manipulating others they gain a guaranteed return, so why would they be patient and wait for the market to go up or why would they risk their gp when they can force it to go up and earn lots of money guaranteed.

 

 

 

First do you know me and can you tell me I have no market skills? So your saying manipulating other players is smart? Your saying that hurting other players to make money is fine? Your saying that someone who can tell trends and make millions per day with skill actually has less skill than someone who plays follow the leader? I doubt anyone else on this forum would agree with that.

 

 

 

No but what I am saying is that if your whole objective merchanting is to earn money than the logical way to do this is through a merch clan.

 

 

 

Your version of merchanting and investing seems to be really passive and you wait to earn gp, with trends where you invest only a portion of your gp. For some players a hundred thousand is a lot of gp for others they prefer 10's of million or even 100's of million profits.

 

 

 

I agree with you that essentially merchanters WHETHER solo or through merch clans do profit off of other players work.

 

 

 

Also I don't see where to draw the line? Why do you as a solo mercher get to sit there and pretend to be all good, and a nice guy not "hurting" another player?

 

 

 

Your saying that hurting other players to make money is fine?

 

 

 

I think that it's relative and that the solo player also hurts other players to earn gp. After all you are profiting from someone else's hard work.

 

 

 

If merch clans are disallowed, don't think that jagex will turn a blind eye to solo merch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think your thinking that almost everyone price manipulates. The majority of Runescape has never even joined on of those clan chats nor though about it. Price manipulators are hurting players directly for their our personal gain. This was considered item scamming when I started Runescape back in 2004 and I consider it item scamming today. Now with Jagex locking accounts of well know price manipulators I think that clearly states that they don't support price manipulation. I encourage them to step in because it is for the better of the game and I think many people will agree with that. Getting rid of free trade was for the better of the game and we stuck by Jagex then. If you feel Runescape is too restrictive then go play another game like WOW where rwters and macros roam free.

 

 

 

A lot of people feel that the price for this was too high and that the game has suffered. Life isn't fair, runescape will never be fair. Forcing people to "do the right thing" is impossible. Some players will forever exploit changes made to the GE to profit. Also what someone see's as exploiting or manipulation someone else may see as not a problem.

 

 

 

Are you sure someone has been perm banned for clan merching? Until that happens its within the rules whether you personally like it or not.

[ArtemisCatal]

Oh, I totally agree, Jagexs pvp lose vs gain drop table is totally unbalanced. I never meant to imply that it wasnt. But it doesnt help that people arent pking the way they are meant too. Before this who pvp quantification, people just put on gear and went pk. Now they figure out exactly what 26k worth of gear is. But this is not even the topic of this tread just an aside. Real pking would risk more than 26k.

 

 

 

The G.E. isnt perfect, but that does not excuse people manipulating it. Thats like saying, well, the server of this bank has a flaw in it, so Im going to hack in and steal millions, because its their flaw so its not illegal. You just go try to get out jail with that one.

 

 

 

Just because something is flawed does not mean you get to abuse it with impunity!!!

[magzar]

Canadiansmurf, how old are you? like 13 maybe?

 

 

 

I'm guessing you have no concept of economics and how it works. Solo merching is almost exactly like investing in the stock market in the real world. You do research, find profitable investments, and sink capital into them. Sometimes those stocks will go up and up and up, earning you money when you finally choose to sell.(hopefully as close to the peak price as possible)

 

 

 

Manipulation requires no intelligence whatsoever to accomplish. All it takes is a group of people, choosing an item at random, buying all of it they can to force the prices to go up, and then selling it when it does go up.

 

 

 

This practice is indeed illegal in the real world, and if allowed would set a horrible economic precedent for the teens and young adults who might play the game and think that the practices they learned in runescape would translate. In the real world manipulating prices will net you a fine and possibly even jail time.

 

 

 

As for saying where do you draw the line and how is a solo merchant not bad, the difference is a solo merchant doesn't buy out the entire stock of an item and force its price to change. They buy a certain amount and watch the prices rise naturally until they feel it has reached its peak, at which time they sell. This doesn't prevent the average player from acquiring items they need, or cause artificial fluctuations in the market

[ArtemisCatal]

Canadiansmurf, how old are you? like 13 maybe?

 

 

 

I'm guessing you have no concept of economics and how it works. Solo merching is almost exactly like investing in the stock market in the real world. You do research, find profitable investments, and sink capital into them. Sometimes those stocks will go up and up and up, earning you money when you finally choose to sell.(hopefully as close to the peak price as possible)

 

 

 

Manipulation requires no intelligence whatsoever to accomplish. All it takes is a group of people, choosing an item at random, buying all of it they can to force the prices to go up, and then selling it when it does go up.

 

 

 

This practice is indeed illegal in the real world, and if allowed would set a horrible economic precedent for the teens and young adults who might play the game and think that the practices they learned in runescape would translate. In the real world manipulating prices will net you a fine and possibly even jail time.

 

 

 

As for saying where do you draw the line and how is a solo merchant not bad, the difference is a solo merchant doesn't buy out the entire stock of an item and force its price to change. They buy a certain amount and watch the prices rise naturally until they feel it has reached its peak, at which time they sell. This doesn't prevent the average player from acquiring items they need, or cause artificial fluctuations in the market

 

 

 

Exactly! This is what I have been arguing all along.

[hihihi727]

....wow

 

 

 

The real manipulators have absolutely no skill. They have a huge cash pile, so they invest it in a large quantity of a random good. They then tell their clan to invest in said item. They then dump the item once it has risen due to the huge amount of people buying that item. They only thing their doing is profiting off people looking for a way to make a quick buck. NO skill, just shear GREED.

 

 

 

Runecrafting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Cooking requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Woodcutting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Mining requires NO skill, just shear GREED

[hihihi727]

Canadiansmurf, how old are you? like 13 maybe?

 

 

 

I'm guessing you have no concept of economics and how it works. Solo merching is almost exactly like investing in the stock market in the real world. You do research, find profitable investments, and sink capital into them. Sometimes those stocks will go up and up and up, earning you money when you finally choose to sell.(hopefully as close to the peak price as possible)

 

 

 

Manipulation requires no intelligence whatsoever to accomplish. All it takes is a group of people, choosing an item at random, buying all of it they can to force the prices to go up, and then selling it when it does go up.

 

 

 

This practice is indeed illegal in the real world, and if allowed would set a horrible economic precedent for the teens and young adults who might play the game and think that the practices they learned in runescape would translate. In the real world manipulating prices will net you a fine and possibly even jail time.

 

 

 

As for saying where do you draw the line and how is a solo merchant not bad, the difference is a solo merchant doesn't buy out the entire stock of an item and force its price to change. They buy a certain amount and watch the prices rise naturally until they feel it has reached its peak, at which time they sell. This doesn't prevent the average player from acquiring items they need, or cause artificial fluctuations in the market

 

 

 

So what if it requires no skill? I'm not in a manipulating clan but you guys sometimes go too far... of course some people will want money. But whats the difference from chopping yews to clan manipulating? Don't tell me you think chopping yews or fishing sharks takes intelligence. Yes, it might make some people a bit annoyed- but how does that differ from killing someone in bounty hunter, or mining a rock and forcing someone to change worlds, or taking up too much space at flesh crawlers? And i really doubt that a teen and a few of his friends would be able to buy out enough shares on his own. And the fact that you associate 13 year olds with stupidity makes you sound even worse.

[ArtemisCatal]

 

Runecrafting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Cooking requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Woodcutting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Mining requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

 

 

Yes, and none of them wreck the economy or make honest people trying to buy things cry.

[hihihi727]

 

Runecrafting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Cooking requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Woodcutting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Mining requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

 

 

Yes, and none of them wreck the economy or make honest people trying to buy things cry.

 

 

 

Yeah i agree that clan manipulating is annoying but people really have to start realizing that Runescape doesn't take any skill. People make clan manipulating out to be something only a stupid and lazy person would consider doing.

[ArtemisCatal]

 

Runecrafting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Cooking requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Woodcutting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Mining requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

 

 

Yes, and none of them wreck the economy or make honest people trying to buy things cry.

 

 

 

Yeah i agree that clan manipulating is annoying but people really have to start realizing that Runescape doesn't take any skill. People make clan manipulating out to be something only a stupid and lazy person would consider doing.

 

 

 

Oh, I don't thing they are necessarily stupid or lazy, just ethically challenged. Or at least myopic and self-centered.

[jettrider]

....wow

 

 

 

The real manipulators have absolutely no skill. They have a huge cash pile, so they invest it in a large quantity of a random good. They then tell their clan to invest in said item. They then dump the item once it has risen due to the huge amount of people buying that item. They only thing their doing is profiting off people looking for a way to make a quick buck. NO skill, just shear GREED.

 

 

 

Runecrafting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Cooking requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Woodcutting requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

Mining requires NO skill, just shear GREED

 

 

 

Runecrafting is a skill that you actually train to make money...

 

Cooking is an easy, cheap skill to train for total levels...

 

Woodcutting is a slower moneymaking skill that you have to train to make money off of...

 

Mining is a very slow skill to train and when you can mine rune you have to work to find a rock lit up...

 

Clan manipulation is one of two things: either mindlessly following the leader and whining when something you don't understand doesn't make you money, or being the leader and greedily backstabbing the people that make your little organization work.

 

 

 

Let's go over this once more...

• 
   
  [*:bnbyfq7t]Training a skill that earns you money takes effort.
   
  [*:bnbyfq7t]Killing a monster that drops something good takes effort.
   
  [*:bnbyfq7t]Standing in PvP to get drop potential takes time and is risky. Time and risk should equate to profit. (By the way, there aren't enough good items in RuneScape to form drop tables without something else being ruined.)
   
  [*:bnbyfq7t]Watching the prices and graphs of many items, picking an item, and risking cash by investing in said item takes effort and involves risk.
   
  [*:bnbyfq7t]Blindly doing what someone else tells you to do and complaining when something you don't understand backfires on you takes no effort, involves no risk, and is straight down annoying and harmful.

[jackjonson]

....wow

 

 

 

The real manipulators have absolutely no skill. They have a huge cash pile, so they invest it in a large quantity of a random good. They then tell their clan to invest in said item. They then dump the item once it has risen due to the huge amount of people buying that item. They only thing their doing is profiting off people looking for a way to make a quick buck. NO skill, just shear GREED.

 

 

 

just skimmed the thread but this stuck out.

 

 

 

these merch clans are nothing less than a ponzi scheme. the demand drives itself. profits of early investors have to be paid by investments from later investors. the problem is that no real value is created when these prices go up. and the real demand does not permanently rise, it is based on investors.

[canadiansmurf]

"As for saying where do you draw the line and how is a solo merchant not bad, the difference is a solo merchant doesn't buy out the entire stock of an item and force its price to change. They buy a certain amount and watch the prices rise naturally until they feel it has reached its peak, at which time they sell. This doesn't prevent the average player from acquiring items they need, or cause artificial fluctuations in the market"

 

 

 

By definition if you are buying large amounts of an item, CAUSING the item to rise, there is no "natural" price rise, you ARE manipulating the price to your ADVANTAGE.

 

 

 

That is EXACTLY how the GE works, if enough items are purchased at max the price WILL INCREASE.

 

 

 

solo merchant doesn't buy out the entire stock

 

 

 

True, and this is built into the GE with capping the number of items a solo player can purchase to prevent hoarding by solo players.

 

 

 

For some items solo merchants may be able to buy out the entire stock especially those items that only come into the game as drops or through players (like SEEDS.) These items CAN and are easily manipulated. Maybe even by solo merchers.

 

 

 

Honestly if Jagex cracks down on clan merchers they would have to crack down on solo merchers as well.

 

 

 

Otherwise any crackdown would NOT work, and we'd have the situation like we had with BH where RWT'rs were easily RWT after all the trade restrictions.

[canadiansmurf]

Also, it's ironic but price caps directly caused merch clans.

 

 

 

Jagex cracked down on people solo buying out items. As with the way the GE works this was guaranteed price increases. These people were buying out heavily in demand items like rune ess and making far too much profit.

 

 

 

After the price caps, people quickly figured out merch clans would be an effective way to manipulate prices. And so now here we are...

 

 

 

 

 

So don't just point one finger at merch clans and accuse them of creating every problem with the GE.

 

 

 

Personally I'd rather see the flaws with the GE fixed, and make items buyable.

 

 

 

When GE price updates, if we already have a bid in, then the bid should roll-over to offer a higher price if we choose that as an option. Currently, this doesn't happen.

 

 

 

And this is just one example of how the GE is flawed when you are trying to buy items.

 

 

 

Also, it's nice to see newer quests actually provide items needed along the way mostly now, instead of causing the GE jam where everyone is buying needed items and none are selling. It makes more sense to create solutions like this to GE bottlenecks than point fingers at "merchant hoarders"

 

 

 

 

 

Also I think that some of the people posting on this thread crying that merch clans are unfair are just jealous that someone else is earning gp so fast.

[jackjonson]

Also, it's ironic but price caps directly caused merch clans.

 

 

 

Jagex cracked down on people solo buying out items. As with the way the GE works this was guaranteed price increases. These people were buying out heavily in demand items like rune ess and making far too much profit.

 

 

 

After the price caps, people quickly figured out merch clans would be an effective way to manipulate prices. And so now here we are...

 

 

 

 

 

So don't just point one finger at merch clans and accuse them of creating every problem with the GE.

 

 

 

Personally I'd rather see the flaws with the GE fixed, and make items buyable.

 

 

 

When GE price updates, if we already have a bid in, then the bid should roll-over to offer a higher price if we choose that as an option. Currently, this doesn't happen.

 

 

 

And this is just one example of how the GE is flawed when you are trying to buy items.

 

 

 

Also, it's nice to see newer quests actually provide items needed along the way mostly now, instead of causing the GE jam where everyone is buying needed items and none are selling. It makes more sense to create solutions like this to GE bottlenecks than point fingers at "merchant hoarders"

 

 

 

 

 

Also I think that some of the people posting on this thread crying that merch clans are unfair are just jealous that someone else is earning gp so fast.

 

 

 

the problem is they are intentionally exploiting an error of the game system to benefit themselves at the expense of others. under the new rule definitions, this falls under 'honor' and is a banable offense. and this is using your definition of what merch clans do

[ArtemisCatal]

 

Also I think that some of the people posting on this thread crying that merch clans are unfair are just jealous that someone else is earning gp so fast.

 

And I think some people in this are reflecting their own insecurities onto other people, but i digress...

 

 

 

First of all, price cap keep items for skyrocketing up as fast as the merch clans would want. They dont help the clans, they just make them have to work on an item for a week or more, rather than days. Price caps have nothing to do with merch clans. They only stop an item from rising and falling as fast as a merch clan could want.

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex cracked down on people solo buying out items. As with the way the GE works this was guaranteed price increases. These people were buying out heavily in demand items like rune ess and making far too much profit.

 

I've never heard of people being cracked down upon by Jagex for solo buying (though, feel free to enlighten me). With the bulk of goods being traded on the G.E., I can't see how any person could, over the long or short term control items, except for a very limited number of items infrequently sold. I think the proof that people couldn't do it on their own is the very fact we have merch clans. Do you think these greedy people would share the cash if they could make it without their syndicate?

 

 

 

A natural price rise would be defined as a price rise caused by an actual increase in demand. If I decide to get 99 rc tomorrow, and buy rune ess for it, the rise in price that might be caused by this increase in demand would be natural, because I plan to use and consume what I am buying. If I and ten of my friends did this to get 99 rc together, that's still a naturally increase. Just like if I mind a billion rune ess and sold them to the G.E. Supply went up because I was selling. The same thing would happen if it turned out tomorrow that you could get 5k exp for crafting silk into some new hat. The price of silk would naturally go through the roof, as the demand when up.

 

 

 

Its the people who are in a cooperative to buy something up just to sell it back that are mucking up the works. I think the G.E. would work much better than people give it credit for if everyone would just use it as it was meant to be used, and stop driving knives into its supposed flaws.

[swordwarior]

How did manipulation clans not see this coming? :wall:

 

This was something that obviously was going to have intervention by Jagex, as people stated, its in the knowledge base that they could if they see fit.

 

If i read one of Mod Matts posts correctly, he basicly told people that have a problem with what happend to quit and leave. He didn't directly say it but he said someone who had said it made a good point. I don't think it could be any clearer, Jagex doesn't care if they lose players dealing with this problem. I think this was the tip of the iceberg. Recently they wanted to make the game more enjoyable, with prices like they have been it hasn't. They're trying to please the masses, in this case its not the manipulators.

[lordkafei]

Can anyone prove it has a negative effect on the economy?

 

 

 

When a clan buys out limpwurts the herblorists and the people who use them have to pay more for their stuff because of unnatural demand. Now when the clans dump the people who collect the limpwurts can't sell them even for min and they lose money they could have had if they would have left the item alone.

 

 

 

 

They cant grow them or gather them by slaying hobgoblins and increase the supply?

 

 

 

Asides, if they did that, they might profit much more than paying 1k+ per second. ...

 

 

 

 

Exactly. There is a cadre of people who spend any amount of gp just to level a skill. The merchant clans are just helping them along. :-w

 

 

 

People are too damned lazy to go kill cockatrices/hobgoblins/whatever and be hunter-gatherers. They want something and they want it now. Pout, pout, pout.

 

 

 

You don't like the price of something? Go gather your own.

 

 

 

Merch clans do not control supply - they control readily available supply. And there's a big difference.

 

 

 

Anyway moving on, Merch clans are a problem for the average everyday scaper. Say for instance a player gets a slayer task of iron dragons. At that point in time, let's assume a major merch clan has decided to merch antifire pots for some odd reason.

 

Now this clan buys out the entire stock of antifire pots.

 

 

 

When that Player goes to the G.E. to buy enough for his task, he finds that he can't purchase a single pot, even at max. Now lets say this player is relatively low level, and doesn't have either the level to make his own antifires, or the money to train his level high enough to do so. Let's also assume that his melee combat stats are too low to make praying against them plausible. Is this player simply supposed to abandon his desire to complete his slayer task until the clan dumps the pots, which could be several days, or more?

 

 

 

I wish to Guthix some clan would merch antifires. Have you checked prices? In the past 30 days, they haven't been over 1k each.

 

 

 

People can't buy pots on the G.E. because no one is selling. I know I am not, and I am sitting on a large pile. Had them for months. Made them myself. Can't sell them without losing a boatload of money. If some merch clan manipulates the price upwards, I finally get to sell. If this is what it takes to move prices up to an acceptable level, then so be it.

 

 

 

Don't like it? Get an assist or level up. But the convenience of "having it now" comes with a price. And that price is being paid to merchant clans. Willingly.

[ArtemisCatal]

They cant grow them or gather them by slaying hobgoblins and increase the supply?

 

 

 

It's not about what they can do, it's about what they can't do, which is buy limps at a supply/demand driven, unmanipulated price.

[Earth_Poet]

....wow

 

 

 

The real manipulators have absolutely no skill. They have a huge cash pile, so they invest it in a large quantity of a random good. They then tell their clan to invest in said item. They then dump the item once it has risen due to the huge amount of people buying that item. They only thing their doing is profiting off people looking for a way to make a quick buck. NO skill, just shear GREED.

 

 

 

just skimmed the thread but this stuck out.

 

 

 

these merch clans are nothing less than a ponzi scheme. the demand drives itself. profits of early investors have to be paid by investments from later investors. the problem is that no real value is created when these prices go up. and the real demand does not permanently rise, it is based on investors.

 

 

 

It's not a ponzi scheme. lol. A ponzi scheme would be if i borrowed 10k from you and promised you 20k next week. Then I go find 2 more people to loan me 10k each and pay you back with their money, then find more people to borrow from to pay back those 2.

 

 

 

It's not exactly insider trading either, as someone earlier said.

 

 

 

It is price manipulation though, and it does parallel illegal trading in the real world. A better definition would be that clan merchants are a collusion.

 

 

 

collusion: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose

 

 

 

And the act of price manipulation that is occuring could be referred to as cornering the market.

 

 

 

cornering the market: The illegal practice of attempting to purchase a sufficient amount of a commodity or security to manipulate its price.

 

 

 

The main difference is in the game it's not exactly a secret. These clans are blatantly doing it out in the open, and bragging about it. In the real world, investors and traders are much more savvy, and so price manipulators have to be very secretive. If other investors catch wind of what is happening, they will usually smell blood in the water and wait out whoever the major seller is until their stock gets too heavy for them and they have to unload, driving the prices down and scoring big dealers for the rest of the traders. Then that gets followed up with trade fines and lawsuits.

[jackjonson]

Can anyone prove it has a negative effect on the economy?

 

 

 

When a clan buys out limpwurts the herblorists and the people who use them have to pay more for their stuff because of unnatural demand. Now when the clans dump the people who collect the limpwurts can't sell them even for min and they lose money they could have had if they would have left the item alone.

 

 

 

 

They cant grow them or gather them by slaying hobgoblins and increase the supply?

 

 

 

Asides, if they did that, they might profit much more than paying 1k+ per second. ...

 

 

 

 

just saw this requoted thought i might comment

 

 

 

of course they can, however they value the xp and time they would have spent gathering at some value less than 1k. what the merch clans do is push the price closer to that tipping point. however people realize these items are being merchanted, and know that in time it will drop back down. this stops them from gathering their own and simply moving onto another task while they wait. this waiting is what i think people are complaining about. this is what interrupts others game play

 

 

 

the leaders of the merch clans are manipulating the rest of the clan to make money. of course a few lower tier ranks make money but overall the clan CANNOT make money. no true long term wealth can be created from these clans, just redistributed

 

 

 

while i agree that these players feel they can play the way they want, they also cannot complain if jagex sees it as disrupting the gameplay and the path they want the game to take, and sees it fit to take action to put it back on their course

[jackjonson]

....wow

 

 

 

The real manipulators have absolutely no skill. They have a huge cash pile, so they invest it in a large quantity of a random good. They then tell their clan to invest in said item. They then dump the item once it has risen due to the huge amount of people buying that item. They only thing their doing is profiting off people looking for a way to make a quick buck. NO skill, just shear GREED.

 

 

 

just skimmed the thread but this stuck out.

 

 

 

these merch clans are nothing less than a ponzi scheme. the demand drives itself. profits of early investors have to be paid by investments from later investors. the problem is that no real value is created when these prices go up. and the real demand does not permanently rise, it is based on investors.

 

 

 

It's not a ponzi scheme. lol. A ponzi scheme would be if i borrowed 10k from you and promised you 20k next week. Then I go find 2 more people to loan me 10k each and pay you back with their money, then find more people to borrow from to pay back those 2.

 

 

 

it is very close a ponzi scheme. the low tier clan members drive the price up and pay the dividends to those who first bought out. when new members lose confidence, the whole thing falls apart. the only difference being that the money does not need to pass through the high ranking members to be distributed to early investors

[ArtemisCatal]

All it has to be for insider trading if for them to have information not available outside of the company. I think that this very well applies. They make trades based on information known within the clan. Sure, people know about the public merch clans, but there are several others, I'm sure, that play it far closer to the belt. And they will be even more secretive now that jagex has stuck its nose in.

 

 

 

It's not insider trading in the same vein as in the real world, but I think it would still fall under that law, and possible monopoly/anti-trust laws also.

[Earth_Poet]

I also want to address the issue about Bluerose being an example of price manipulation. You could say her 99 smithing and her decisions on how to use it was price manipulation, but I wouldn't have called it the illegal kind. Illegal price manipulating is when both the true value of a product and the liquidity in the market are undermined. Bluerose was affecting liquidity of the market, but she wasn't manipulating the value of her products.

 

 

 

It would be the same as if a farmer decided what crop to grow this summer. If corn has a high price, then he grows corn in anticipation of this. His corn eventually floods the market, and the price of corn eventually drops. If corn prices are low this year, then the farmer may wait a year and plant something else until the price goes back up, thus restricting liquidity in the market.

 

 

 

In the clan merchant scenarios, they are intentionally restricting the liquidity in the market in order to drive prices up artificially. The prices do not reflect true value, because what is readily available in liquidity is not being accurately portrayed.

[Earth_Poet]

it is very close a ponzi scheme. the low tier clan members drive the price up and pay the dividends to those who first bought out. when new members lose confidence, the whole thing falls apart. the only difference being that the money does not need to pass through the high ranking members to be distributed to early investors

 

 

 

in a ponzi scheme there are no investments actually being made. there is no product. it's just somebody robbing guys to pay back the guys they robbed earlier. it really has nothing to do with the market itself, because the money never touches anything. in clans they are actually do make investments to purchase something.

[Earth_Poet]

All it has to be for insider trading if for them to have information not available outside of the company. I think that this very well applies. They make trades based on information known within the clan. Sure, people know about the public merch clans, but there are several others, I'm sure, that play it far closer to the belt. And they will be even more secretive now that jagex has stuck its nose in.

 

 

 

It's not insider trading in the same vein as in the real world, but I think it would still fall under that law, and possible monopoly/anti-trust laws also.

 

 

 

They aren't getting privy information. They are getting the same information about product prices that we all get. Insider trading is more reactive. Clan merchanting takes a more active approach to manipulate the prices.