Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[ArtemisCatal]

it is very close a ponzi scheme. the low tier clan members drive the price up and pay the dividends to those who first bought out. when new members lose confidence, the whole thing falls apart. the only difference being that the money does not need to pass through the high ranking members to be distributed to early investors

 

 

 

in a ponzi scheme there are no investments actually being made. there is no product. it's just somebody robbing guys to pay back the guys they robbed earlier. it really has nothing to do with the market itself, because the money never touches anything. in clans they are actually do make investments to purchase something.

 

 

 

It still has some ponzi scheme like element to it, with the rich preying on those who want to be richer. Just like it has elements of being insider trading, and cornering the market, and a monopoly, and probably half a dozen other illegal crimes that are on the books. None of them quite fit just right, because runescape economy isnt run by the same rules as the real economy.

 

 

 

But either way, I think most of us can, through looking at real life parallels, see that in real life this particular game play would be frowned upon as unethical, and likely land you in legal trouble.

 

 

 

edit: I disagree. It is true that the insider information is generated by the clan itself, but that doesn't preclude it from being insider information. It would be just like if a company knew it had a big product coming out that was going to wow everyone, so they bought up stock knowing it was going to rise. That is not allowed. And just like in real life, the product doesn't always wow everyone, the stock doesn't always go up, and the people who bought limproots get their comeuppance.

[Earth_Poet]

It still has some ponzi scheme like element to it

 

 

 

But a ponzi scheme isn't price manipulation. To put it bluntly, it's just a con.

 

 

 

Just like it has elements of being insider trading, and cornering the market, and a monopoly, and probably half a dozen other illegal crimes that are on the books. None of them quite fit just right, because runescape economy isnt run by the same rules as the real economy.

 

 

 

Merchant clans buy up a dominant share of an item in order to restrict supply and raise the price. That's actually textbook definition of cornering the market. A monopoly isn't really price manipulating, it's more of a market system, and an oligopoly might be a more accurate term.

 

 

 

But either way, I think most of us can, through looking at real life parallels, see that in real life this particular game play would be frowned upon as unethical, and likely land you in legal trouble.

 

 

 

Agreed. Debating the name is rather trivial. It is unethical practice. Even free trade markets have laws against this sort of behavior, and for very good reason.

 

 

 

edit: I disagree. It is true that the insider information is generated by the clan itself, but that doesn't preclude it from being insider information. It would be just like if a company knew it had a big product coming out that was going to wow everyone, so they bought up stock knowing it was going to rise. That is not allowed. And just like in real life, the product doesn't always wow everyone, the stock doesn't always go up, and the people who bought limproots get their comeuppance.

 

 

 

This would be an example of insider trading: I'm a Jmod who plays the game (or I know one personally) and I got whiff of an update to be released next week that is going to put item X into great demand. What's the first thing I'd do? I'd buy up all of item X that I could until the update is released, and then sell off once the price skyrockets. It is true that some of the merchant clans, not all because I don't want to demonize them all in this particular fashion, are organized where the leaders know what they plan on doing secretly and use their lower members as puppets. However, they don't have any insider information other than what their own actions will be. And that's closer to the definition of a collusion.

[ArtemisCatal]

The insider information I am talking about is the information that they will all by buying up x item, and dumping x item. They know that item x will go up, because they are buying up item x, and this information is insider information. It doesnt need to be parsed through an actually rise in demand, when they are creating a rise in demand.

 

 

 

Without the insider information on what item they are manipulating, and when, none of this works. It is this inside of the clan knowledge that allows them to corner the market. This gives them a monopoly in said market item, allowing them to drive up the price using the G.E. system. Then they get the information to dump said item. The insider information is all in the timing, in the conspiracy part of the operation. The fact that there is a conspiracy and what the conspiracy is doing causes the insider information. But in real life, all kinds of laws would be crashing down about their heads.

 

 

 

Ok all that is really convoluted, I admit, Ill try again

 

 

 

Insider information: clan leadership says item x is going to go up

 

This is a separate crime from the cornering the market to make the item go up.

 

 

 

Maybe that just made it even more confusing. I know what Im saying, and it really is just a picayune point.

 

 

 

edit: (I should have known I could never escape)

 

Being a collusion doesnt stop it from being insider information too. Just like if clan member y told non-clan member z that the clan was merchenting item x and non-clan member z road on the coat tales of the clan without being part of the collusion, that would be insider trading because non-clan member z got insider information of what was going on in the clan, which is, in and of itself a middle man, like a warehouse company for items. By the same token, clan member y comunication to clan member q that item x is going to rise, and that he should by bying it up is insider information too, as being part of the collusion. The clan can be seen as just a warehouse for items, in which they control the items comming in to the warehouse and the items comming out of the warehouse. The problem is, they are manipulating things by lying about what is in the warehouse!

 

 

 

The ponzi sceme part comes into play when all the clan leaders bail early, leaving the other clan members with unsold product under the value the bought it. If I was one of these leaders, I would set in my buy orders, then tell everyone else to buy, so that I bought mine first, then Id only have my members buy as it went up and up, then I would dump first, making sure I bought and mine at min, sold at max, while everyone else sold between the two extremes. I mean, if Im going to be a greedy, soul sucking leach on the underbelly of the Runescape economy, I might as well be heartless and cruel too.

 

 

 

And I'm going to bed. This is my last musings into the mind of evil for the night. Any more and I will give myself nightmares.

[Naive]

:thumbup:

[pulli23]

Das

 

 

 

Master smither just posted it in writing, from info on the G.E. that Jagex will intervene if they see Manipulation. So obviously it's against the rules.

 

 

 

gf

 

 

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, what you consider a luxury, other people consider a necessity.

 

I certainly wouldn't ever want to train prayer with normal bones.

 

So for me Dragon bones are a necessity. Some people may prefer to train "old school" and consider them a luxury. It's all based on personal opinion.

 

 

 

Uhm that's one of the most stupid posts I ever read: it's good that I'm not an admin cause I really would almost hit the ban button somebody would say such a thing to me:

 

 

 

You're basically saying das (and all tipit's staff) shouldn't have a personal opinion on what's good: that hey should always, and only, follow runescape's opinion? That would be for me one of the biggest breaches of freedom in speech - my personally highest valued human right! - Really you lost all my respect with that post (though you probably don't care).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ow and for those who say "I can't get a months suply".. - Don't you make profit than with what you're doing? (else you soon grow to have a months suply), and moreover: how did you do it when the GE wasn't out?

[Wouter828]

I support these actions, finally something is being done. The money made by merchanters is taken out of the every day players' pocket in an unfair way in my opinion.

[acenator]

Guys, does it really matter what it would be classified as in real life? It would be illegal and that's all that really matters when trying to compare this to real life.

[das]

 

I wish to Guthix some clan would merch antifires. Have you checked prices? In the past 30 days, they haven't been over 1k each.

 

 

 

People can't buy pots on the G.E. because no one is selling. I know I am not, and I am sitting on a large pile. Had them for months. Made them myself. Can't sell them without losing a boatload of money. If some merch clan manipulates the price upwards, I finally get to sell. If this is what it takes to move prices up to an acceptable level, then so be it.

 

 

 

Don't like it? Get an assist or level up. But the convenience of "having it now" comes with a price. And that price is being paid to merchant clans. Willingly.

 

 

 

Amen, I know tons of higher leveled skillers are sitting on TONS of potions, runes and other finished products that they dont think it's worth selling for the current price

[noble_aloof]

i lol'd so hard. the problem with these merch clans is that barely any of the people know how the ge works or what they're doing. they're a bunch of tools.

 

 

 

its obvious that jagex intervened. mmk had something to do with it if he was IN goldmerch (and he seems to know the lingo pretty well)

 

 

 

i've been a member of an investing clan for almost 2 years now. we've lost a lot of our members to these noob buy-out clans. the clan i'm in has only done one buy-out, and that was top hats last summer. every member of the chat has made millions by investing and flipping alone. this is (quite honestly) what all merchant clans should be like. i'm so glad jagex screwed these guys.

[jettrider]

 

I wish to Guthix some clan would merch antifires. Have you checked prices? In the past 30 days, they haven't been over 1k each.

 

 

 

People can't buy pots on the G.E. because no one is selling. I know I am not, and I am sitting on a large pile. Had them for months. Made them myself. Can't sell them without losing a boatload of money. If some merch clan manipulates the price upwards, I finally get to sell. If this is what it takes to move prices up to an acceptable level, then so be it.

 

 

 

Don't like it? Get an assist or level up. But the convenience of "having it now" comes with a price. And that price is being paid to merchant clans. Willingly.

 

 

 

Amen, I know tons of higher leveled skillers are sitting on TONS of potions, runes and other finished products that they dont think it's worth selling for the current price

 

 

 

You can make more money by simply selling them for their average price then using the cash to solo merch faster. I don't really think that holding on to tons of stuff is a good idea, as the price could always plummet before someone decides to buy them out.

[Randox]

Whether Jagex Intervened, the GE glitched, or we just suffered from divine intervention (Guthix hates merchants), it now looks like Jagex just sent the biggest middle finger in history to merchant clans. The should make them all mill around in self doubt for a while, and I hope we see some equaly divine interventions in the future.

[magzar]

Das

 

 

 

Master smither just posted it in writing, from info on the G.E. that Jagex will intervene if they see Manipulation. So obviously it's against the rules.

 

 

 

gf

 

 

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, what you consider a luxury, other people consider a necessity.

 

I certainly wouldn't ever want to train prayer with normal bones.

 

So for me Dragon bones are a necessity. Some people may prefer to train "old school" and consider them a luxury. It's all based on personal opinion.

 

 

 

Uhm that's one of the most stupid posts I ever read: it's good that I'm not an admin cause I really would almost hit the ban button somebody would say such a thing to me:

 

 

 

You're basically saying das (and all tipit's staff) shouldn't have a personal opinion on what's good: that hey should always, and only, follow runescape's opinion? That would be for me one of the biggest breaches of freedom in speech - my personally highest valued human right! - Really you lost all my respect with that post (though you probably don't care).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ow and for those who say "I can't get a months suply".. - Don't you make profit than with what you're doing? (else you soon grow to have a months suply), and moreover: how did you do it when the GE wasn't out?

 

 

 

 

 

Pulli please read the thread before you make an [wagon] out of yourself. I've already said, more than once mind you, that I kidding.

 

 

 

Also, the vast majority of players aren't going to buy a month's supply of everything they could possibly need for that month, because you never know what new activities you might decide you want to do. There's almost always going to be something in the game you need that you don't have. Hence the entire point of trading.

 

 

 

Besides that, To anyone saying "you could gather it yourself," have you stopped to consider this is a MMORPG, which by very definition demands some level of dependence on other players for materials or items you may need.

 

Imagine a solo version of runescape where you have to gather everything you need all by yourself, and could sell only to general stores. It would probably take you 10 years or more to ever get anywhere close to maxing out skills, not to mention all the other disadvantages that come with a total self sufficiency. I'm not knocking doing things on your own, I try do do a lot of things on my own as well, but as a MMORPG, it's a community game and as such it's designed to be played with the aid of other players.

[Drow4]

I joined the cc to see their opinions.

 

Apparently Jagex intervened because they are 'the best merch clan out there'. Made me laugh.

[magzar]

I joined the cc to see their opinions.

 

Apparently Jagex intervened because they are 'the best merch clan out there'. Made me laugh.

 

 

 

I've been talking to one of the ranked members from goldmerch, he's trying to start up a solo investment clan to teach people how to merch on their own rather than manipulating. His [wagon] clan seems to only want to keep manipulating though. Some kids never learn.

[Ravenkana]

Regardless of whether or not Jagex interfered, this whole situation has been handled poorly, as usual.

 

 

 

First, we have a wisecracking, downright rude mod mocking the merchants, never actually giving a straight answer. In any real world business, such behavior would probably result in the employee being fired.

 

 

 

Secondly, when the clans are complaining within their own clan chats, Jagex begins locking those down. Now, censorship in the Western world rarely works. Didn't work on the American colonies, didn't work for King Louis the XIV, and didn't work for the Catholic church. The dissenters will simply go someplace were the authorities are not present, in this case a forum on another site, and the act of censorship becomes just one more log on the fire of rage.

 

 

 

The repercussions for these actions will probably be a lot of disgruntled merchants. Though you may say that they make up a minority, some of these clans are quite large and have a vast array of levels and experience amongst the players involved. Furthermore, many of these merchants are members. What does this mean for Jagex? If pushed hard enough, some of those merchants might quit. Many others will harbor anti-Jagex sentiments for the rest of their career.

 

 

 

In short, this poorly handled debacle will probably have long reaching, negative consequences for Jagex, regardless of how much you enjoy Mod Mat K's infantile antics.

[Omali]

First, we have a wisecracking, downright rude mod mocking the merchants, never actually giving a straight answer. In any real world business, such behavior would probably result in the employee being fired.

 

 

 

Downright rude? Cry some more, or actually read the thread. AS for him not giving a straight answer, he explained that several times; he can't.

 

 

 

As for "real world business," I lol'd. Because Jagex, a multimillion dollar company, is a "fake world" business amirite?

 

 

 

Secondly, when the clans are complaining within their own clan chats, Jagex begins locking those down. Now, censorship in the Western world rarely works. Didn't work on the American colonies, didn't work for King Louis the XIV, and didn't work for the Catholic church. The dissenters will simply go someplace were the authorities are not present, in this case a forum on another site, and the act of censorship becomes just one more log on the fire of rage.

 

 

 

When did Jagex start shutting down clan chats?

 

 

 

The repercussions for these actions will probably be a lot of disgruntled merchants. Though you may say that they make up a minority, some of these clans are quite large and have a vast array of levels and experience amongst the players involved. Furthermore, many of these merchants are members. What does this mean for Jagex? If pushed hard enough, some of those merchants might quit. Many others will harbor anti-Jagex sentiments for the rest of their career.

 

 

 

So a tiny number of less desirable characters quit. Boohoo. Just like when the kiddies quit because they couldn't buy gold from rwt'ers, who cares? Many of us don't want buyout clanners to be playing runescape in the first place.

 

 

 

In short, this poorly handled debacle will probably have long reaching, negative consequences for Jagex, regardless of how much you enjoy Mod Mat K's infantile antics.

 

 

 

Long reaching as in you'll talk about it for a week, and then we'll all forget about it.

 

 

 

As for infantile; Pot? Meet kettle.

[Drow4]

 

First, we have a wisecracking, downright rude mod mocking the merchants, never actually giving a straight answer. In any real world business, such behavior would probably result in the employee being fired.

 

 

 

 

But in this case his behaviour is really amusing. Even if I was a manipulator..I mean a merchanter..I would find his replies funny. Plus he has given quite valid answers, it is the paranoia of the merchant clans that is making them think 'oh damn, we are actually doing something wrong therefore Jagex have done something to stop us'.

 

You're only going to get punished if you do something wrong after all.

 

If anything has been done purposely it is a step forward in solving the problem. :thumbup:

[Master_Smither]

Secondly, when the clans are complaining within their own clan chats, Jagex begins locking those down. Now, censorship in the Western world rarely works. Didn't work on the American colonies, didn't work for King Louis the XIV, and didn't work for the Catholic church. The dissenters will simply go someplace were the authorities are not present, in this case a forum on another site, and the act of censorship becomes just one more log on the fire of rage.

 

 

 

When did Jagex start shutting down clan chats?

 

 

 

Jagex locked a few well known price manipulator's accounts due to them being stolen or them account sharing(or so thats the reason Jagex gave). The cc's weren't locked they were set to ranks only can talk.

[Torlen]

Das

 

 

 

Master smither just posted it in writing, from info on the G.E. that Jagex will intervene if they see Manipulation. So obviously it's against the rules.

 

 

 

gf

 

 

 

now be ashamed of yourself for your failure to to do your modly duty of providing a positive role model for the users on these forums.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, what you consider a luxury, other people consider a necessity.

 

I certainly wouldn't ever want to train prayer with normal bones.

 

So for me Dragon bones are a necessity. Some people may prefer to train "old school" and consider them a luxury. It's all based on personal opinion.

 

 

 

I 100% agree. I was really appalled to find one of tip.its own moderators on the side of merchanting clans. I had always thought tip.it admins were a bit more careful than that.

[Nathaninch]

AFAIK mods are people and are allowed to form their independent opinions on a subject.

[Nathaninch]

Gotta get my .02 in

 

 

 

i don't get the hate for merchanting guilds. they give you an opportunity to sell your stuff at ridiculously high prices if you can get in when the time is right. ie: i had about 50 crystal keys hanging around in my bank and sold them at triple their value last week. And I've gotten 30k free crafting exp a day from people who have too many dragonstones. the only people who lose are the bandwagon jumpers who buy too late and sell way too late.

 

 

 

haven't read the entire 15page thread and I'm sure this has been mentioned many times; but these guys are doing nothing wrong. The words 'abuse' 'manipulate' etc. are being thrown around and I don't think they're fair. Merch guilds are playing WELL within the rules and I take no moral issue with what they do. It's alot more legit than stuff that used to go on with merchanting before the G.E.

 

 

 

There has always been what I view to be an irrational hate on for merchants. Whether it's born from jealousy, bad experiences or whatever, I don't know... but it's silly. The whole thing is silly.

[magzar]

Gotta get my .02 in

 

 

 

i don't get the hate for merchanting guilds. they give you an opportunity to sell your stuff at ridiculously high prices if you can get in when the time is right. ie: i had about 50 crystal keys hanging around in my bank and sold them at triple their value last week. And I've gotten 30k free crafting exp a day from people who have too many dragonstones. the only people who lose are the bandwagon jumpers who buy too late and sell way too late.

 

 

 

haven't read the entire 15page thread and I'm sure this has been mentioned many times; but these guys are doing nothing wrong. The words 'abuse' 'manipulate' etc. are being thrown around and I don't think they're fair. Merch guilds are playing WELL within the rules and I take no moral issue with what they do. It's alot more legit than stuff that used to go on with merchanting before the G.E.

 

 

 

There has always been what I view to be an irrational hate on for merchants. Whether it's born from jealousy, bad experiences or whatever, I don't know... but it's silly. The whole thing is silly.

 

 

 

 

 

You really should read the thread as you don't seem to understand the harm they cause, or that it's clearly not well within the rules as jagex has begun taking action against it.

 

 

 

Also, a Mod is NOT allowed to express opinions which are contradictory to the rules of Runescape. That being said, I reiterate that it was indeed, just a joke.

[brunokiller]

I love Mod Mat K more than I love Musky44.

[Nathaninch]

 

You really should read the thread as you don't seem to understand the harm they cause, or that it's clearly not well within the rules as jagex has begun taking action against it.

 

 

 

Also, a Mod is NOT allowed to express opinions which are contradictory to the rules of Runescape. That being said, I reiterate that it was indeed, just a joke.

 

 

 

Please tell me the harm they cause and the rule they have broken. Specifically, what harm and what rule.

 

 

 

I assume you're referring to JMods? I was referring to the backlash das received for giving his opinion which happened to be contrary to that of the TIF mob.

[Ravenkana]

Gotta get my .02 in

 

 

 

i don't get the hate for merchanting guilds. they give you an opportunity to sell your stuff at ridiculously high prices if you can get in when the time is right. ie: i had about 50 crystal keys hanging around in my bank and sold them at triple their value last week. And I've gotten 30k free crafting exp a day from people who have too many dragonstones. the only people who lose are the bandwagon jumpers who buy too late and sell way too late.

 

 

 

haven't read the entire 15page thread and I'm sure this has been mentioned many times; but these guys are doing nothing wrong. The words 'abuse' 'manipulate' etc. are being thrown around and I don't think they're fair. Merch guilds are playing WELL within the rules and I take no moral issue with what they do. It's alot more legit than stuff that used to go on with merchanting before the G.E.

 

 

 

There has always been what I view to be an irrational hate on for merchants. Whether it's born from jealousy, bad experiences or whatever, I don't know... but it's silly. The whole thing is silly.

 

 

 

 

 

You really should read the thread as you don't seem to understand the harm they cause, or that it's clearly not well within the rules as jagex has begun taking action against it.

 

 

 

Also, a Mod is NOT allowed to express opinions which are contradictory to the rules of Runescape. That being said, I reiterate that it was indeed, just a joke.

But it's not against the official rules. Sure, Jagex frowns upon it, but they frown upon a lot of things- 26k pking, not being paranoid and thinking every other player is a fifty something child molester, not giving them money, speaking out against them. Unless it's in the official rules it is still legal, even if the mods say it isn't cause mods say a lot of things that aren't always true.

 

 

 

Secondly, when the clans are complaining within their own clan chats, Jagex begins locking those down. Now, censorship in the Western world rarely works. Didn't work on the American colonies, didn't work for King Louis the XIV, and didn't work for the Catholic church. The dissenters will simply go someplace were the authorities are not present, in this case a forum on another site, and the act of censorship becomes just one more log on the fire of rage.

 

 

 

When did Jagex start shutting down clan chats?

 

 

 

Jagex locked a few well known price manipulator's accounts due to them being stolen or them account sharing(or so thats the reason Jagex gave). The cc's weren't locked they were set to ranks only can talk.

 

Really? Huh, don't know much about clan chats, and from the way people were talking I assumed the chats had been locked. My mistake, sorry!