Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[whocares]

The best "solution" would be to free the GE from the restrictions that make price manipulation possible in the first place. By setting price limits, Jagex went too far to try to protect players from themselves. If the GE were a true market maker, price limits would be unnecessary, and price manipulation would be impossible. The GE should collect and sort free offers to buy and sell at any price. This would allow anyone thinking of trading an item to check the true market price before doing so. If the GE is available and somebody gets ripped off in a private trade, it's their own fault. In sum, the solution to this problem is more freedom for traders, not less. Increase the information available to all players and then let them play. This would facilitate true merchanting and would totally kill the form of play that is aimed at manipulating the Jagex system. As long as Jagex has a system, players will figure out how to game it. The elmination of the system that is being gamed will solve the problem.

 

The problem with that is that it is likely to open upholes for RWT'ers to work through.

 

 

 

Personally, I say they need to come out and state their stance on the issue (likely to be that price manipulation is wrong and needs to stop if the KB and the forum rules mean anything), issue a rule against organizing price manipulation groups, ban the leaders of manipulation clans that don't shut down (this would eventually become hard to track, but should still be part of the fight against price manipulation clans), and start repeating what has happened to limpwurts only for every item being manipulated (it's really not that hard to tell if an item is being manipulated or rising naturally).

 

 

 

Just issueing the statement and rule will shut down the majority of these clans and, once a few leaders have been banned and a ton of money has been lost from prices being lowered in the middle of a buyout, I highly doubt there would be very many people left in the price manipulation "community."

 

 

 

I agree 10 thousand percent!

[magzar]

Would a possibly solution to problems with the GE be to make it so that if you sell at min your item always sells (even if it goes into the ether) and if you buy at max you always get it (even if it means creating an item from nothing).

 

 

 

Obviously there would be limits to this but it would also remove junk from the game, effectively monetising everything in the game. Something which is worth 100 gp on the GE but is useless to anyone (effectively useful for junk trading only) could be sold on the GE for min and get real cash gp out of it.

 

 

 

What are the pros and cons of this? Thousands of people would be able to sell their junk items created as a result of skilling. Most cheap items are already at their price floors so this would make no difference. Clan merchants could never completely buy out an item but could possibly still push up prices of everything. The difference being is that when the leaders try to sell at minimum the minions of the clan would still probably be buying for higher prices so the prices wont crash.

 

 

 

Obviously alchable items would never go below the cost of a nature rune.

 

 

 

These are all things to ponder.

 

 

 

Your idea would never work as it would make people have the option of buying "rare" items that aren't on the market. Rares would cease to exist and their prices would plummet. This idea would have a hugely detrimental effect on the economy of runescape as a whole.

[bedman]

There are many solutions Jagex could do, I think they are just testing all of their solutions to see which one leaves the least impact on the majority of the community. Any way you put it, SOMEONE is going to have to make a sacrifice. Its just how it is.

 

 

 

Some solutions are plausible though. Letting you instant buy things 10% over mid price, and letting you instant sell things 10% under mid price is certainly one solution to prevent buyouts, as items are always in stock. But then you bring in issues where the price still changes out of control.

 

 

 

Another option is increasing the amount of time it takes G.E. to change price. Perhaps G.E. only changes price once a week. This would really cut out on merchant clans, because it turns everything into long investment merchanting. Not to mention this option leaves the smallest impact on the average Joe.

 

 

 

The final, last resort, option is fixing prices. I dont see this happening though unless items start getting locked up and stuck in price ranges nobody buys from.

 

 

 

In all honesty, reducing the frequency G.E. updates is really the biggest way to fix the problem with the smallest impact. But I agree Jagex needs to set a stance, post an announcement on the main page, and stick with it from there to solve the problem. If people don't realize its wrong, they wont stop anytime soon.

 

 

 

In all honesty, making the GE update even slower will actually make this much worse. Items are stuck because the GE doesn't update frequently enough. Items are bought out because people can't instantly resell the items for huge profit. They keep the item and wait for the GE to update.

 

 

 

Imagine a buy-out pre GE: A clan hoards an item. In stead of having to wait days, or weeks for the GE to update. They can instantly charge whatever price they want. Transactions will be made quickly. This will cause the price to drop quickly again. We'd still have some [bleep]es, but they'd be only a matter of hours, perhaps days. Not weeks like it is now sometimes.

 

 

 

Seriously, all that "destroys" the market atm are the price caps and update-time caps. An economy should be dynamic, being able to change within minutes. We'd never, ever have a third age situation without the GE limitations. Even if it was hoarded, a lot of people won't be able to resist selling, and soon the price will be back to normal. The fact that an item is actually unbuyable raises the price much more than the simple fact that there's more demand. With no price caps, more demand is instantly replied to by higher prices, people selling, and the price returning to normal.

[pulli23]

Sigh, the only, yes only, argument I see against these clans is:

 

"I can't buy it immediatelly, therefor it's bad"..

 

 

 

Again I ask you: how did you do it before the ge? - many items were bought out by billions a day by single persons (I remember duke owning 1B essence at some point at once).. Really those clan-buyouts pale in comparisation to the half jug of wine/other buyouts that happened then. - But back then it was deemed "normal".. In some way runescape is transforming more and more in hug-scape: we always have to help each other, and every competition/unequality seems to be bad..

 

 

 

Bedman summed up the solution (which I posted the day GE was implimented already in the suggestion forum) quite nicely.

[magzar]

Sigh, the only, yes only, argument I see against these clans is:

 

"I can't buy it immediatelly, therefor it's bad"..

 

 

 

Again I ask you: how did you do it before the ge? - many items were bought out by billions a day by single persons (I remember duke owning 1B essence at some point at once).. Really those clan-buyouts pale in comparisation to the half jug of wine/other buyouts that happened then. - But back then it was deemed "normal".. In some way runescape is transforming more and more in hug-scape: we always have to help each other, and every competition/unequality seems to be bad..

 

 

 

Bedman summed up the solution (which I posted the day GE was implimented already in the suggestion forum) quite nicely.

 

 

 

 

 

I think we all agree the G.E. should be dynamic, however you have to be out of your mind if you think that buyouts were anywhere close to as widespread or severe as they are today. Back the it was IMPOSSIBLE to buy out an entire stock as you could never find an entire stock. There would always be people who still had some and were still selling. Now the vast majority of all transactions(especially bulk transactions) take place in the G.E. due to the greater range of prices available when compared to player to player trading.

 

 

 

The fact that it's a one stop shop for manipulators makes it possible for them to achieve buyouts on a scale that was completely unheard of pre-G.E. In fact I think it's safe to say that before the G.E. the average player had never even heard of clan manipulation.

 

 

 

The fact that there was no central market pre-G.E. meant that if someone was price gouging, a player could almost always find someone willing to sell for a more reasonable price.

 

 

 

As far as half wines got, it's totally irrelevant as there is no practical use for a half wine, so the only people interested in buying these were usually other merchants.

 

 

 

Also if the only argument you've seen against them concerns not being able to buy immediately, then I strongly suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills, or possibly go to an optometrist.

[Soma2035]

I admit beforehand, I have not read all the posts on this thread (way too many pages, perfect for the obligatory tl;dr), so if this has been mentioned, then just disregard this.

 

 

 

Price manipulation was creating a lot more problems than most players are aware of, including RWT.

 

 

 

It has become almost common practice to sell or buy something at market price, and at the same time, send or receive a certain amount of real money through some online transaction method. I haven't been paying too much attention recently, so I can't say whether the situation has worsened.

 

 

 

A good example of this was the recent dragon stones disaster. Several people got together to manipulate dragonstones, shooting for a goal of 150k. The plan fell through and the leaders in this little venture dumped at 120k. Many people were caught up in this, and ended up holding extremely overvalued uncut dragonstones. Including this person here:

 

 

 

Selling 35 uncut D Stones - Paying Paypal for someone to buy

 

 

 

This was taken from an open forum that's more accepting of rule breakers, and in fact, has forums set aside for it. This can go both ways: Selling an overvalued good and offering real money to cover the difference, buying a "locked up" item that you desperately need and offering real money.

 

 

 

Seeing that this particular website is completely open: you don't even need to register to see what topics are posted (go ahead and take a look yourself if you want), the names are obviously not their Runescape names. However, the point is, Jagex must have realized by now that price manipulators are encouraging RWT, albeit not necessarily intentionally. I would not be surprised if there were other websites out there, which organize a price manipulation clan for the sake of making real money by selling their goods through player-to-player trades, and asking for real money.

[Latinoking]

Once again Jagex shows how much they lack behind by improving certain aspects of the game for the community as a whole. Like they always step a behind, but maybe too behind until it gets serious. Nope, I'm not talking about bug abuse, but loopholes.

 

 

 

Yes, I admit that bots made the market stable as they would constantly bring in raw materials, but as you guys pointed out it took them YEARS to finally put an end (or what they believe is the end of the bots and RWT.) While in between adding dumb stuff such as random events with the only true benefits were more clothes/half keys and banking (with Leo.) Never truly fixing the entire ordeal that was directing stopping the real world trading, until it had to get extreme measures that people complain about their credits cards.

 

 

 

Once again they prove this with the Grand Exchange. They put it out in Runescape, doesn't like that it still didn't have a price limit, so they add a "gap" on items and hope the players will simply accept the item at the price and would purchase it.

 

 

 

But once again, players who are always ANTI-Jagex and their methods always find new ways of getting around the "system." Whether it has been junk trading (which I hate), and now groups of players who are rich deciding to become richer by buying the entire inventory of a certain product to raise the price and then make profits of said product.

 

 

 

Jagex can get mad all they want, but they need to admit that they are always a step behind, and until the public makes an outcry do they usually do something. It's their game, but yet doesn't seem to have the staff capable of thinking every idea through (thinking what could happen if they do "this" or implentment "that"). Maybe they should reconnect with the community of Runescape via forums and then truly try to figure out what loopholes are being exploited (if they determine it's a loophole) and finally make this game competitive for everyone. RSOF is poorly organized and not very friendly in trying to actually have a discussion about something. You can't even quote, you got to put "---" to actually get a point across that you're quoting someone.

 

 

 

This type of merchanting wasn't fair for the average 'scaper and I can see why they finally did something, but when did the Grand Exchange come out? November, 26 2007 and until now the year 2009 do they actually do something? Which is still very small on attacking the whole ordeal that is merchanting clans and their form of merchanting which they believe is allowed or should be. All he did was lower the price of an item they were planting to purchase and keep for a few days. Where's the rest of trying to attack the issue if they truly believe it is wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Question like how Master_Smither asked should even have to happen, Jagex the company and staff should have thought this loophole could have come to this.

 

 

 

It isn't Mod Mat K to the rescue. It's more Jagex finally trying to answer the public's outcry about this issue.....two years later.

[magzar]

Once again Jagex shows how much they lack behind by improving certain aspects of the game for the community as a whole. Like they always step a behind, but maybe too behind until it gets serious. Nope, I'm not talking about bug abuse, but loopholes.

 

 

 

Yes, I admit that bots made the market stable as they would constantly bring in raw materials, but as you guys pointed out it took them YEARS to finally put an end (or what they believe is the end of the bots and RWT.) While in between adding dumb stuff such as random events with the only true benefits were more clothes/half keys and banking (with Leo.) Never truly fixing the entire ordeal that was directing stopping the real world trading, until it had to get extreme measures that people complain about their credits cards.

 

 

 

Once again they prove this with the Grand Exchange. They put it out in Runescape, doesn't like that it still didn't have a price limit, so they add a "gap" on items and hope the players will simply accept the item at the price and would purchase it.

 

 

 

But once again, players who are always ANTI-Jagex and their methods always find new ways of getting around the "system." Whether it has been junk trading (which I hate), and now groups of players who are rich deciding to become richer by buying the entire inventory of a certain product to raise the price and then make profits of said product.

 

 

 

Jagex can get mad all they want, but they need to admit that they are always a step behind, and until the public makes an outcry do they usually do something. It's their game, but yet doesn't seem to have the staff capable of thinking every idea through (thinking what could happen if they do "this" or implentment "that"). Maybe they should reconnect with the community of Runescape via forums and then truly try to figure out what loopholes are being exploited (if they determine it's a loophole) and finally make this game competitive for everyone. RSOF is poorly organized and not very friendly in trying to actually have a discussion about something. You can't even quote, you got to put "---" to actually get a point across that you're quoting someone.

 

 

 

This type of merchanting wasn't fair for the average 'scaper and I can see why they finally did something, but when did the Grand Exchange come out? November, 26 2007 and until now the year 2009 do they actually do something? Which is still very small on attacking the whole ordeal that is merchanting clans and their form of merchanting which they believe is allowed or should be. All he did was lower the price of an item they were planting to purchase and keep for a few days. Where's the rest of trying to attack the issue if they truly believe it is wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Question like how Master_Smither asked should even have to happen, Jagex the company and staff should have thought this loophole could have come to this.

 

 

 

It isn't Mod Mat K to the rescue. It's more Jagex finally trying to answer the public's outcry about this issue.....two years later.

 

 

 

 

 

Your post is pretty exceptionally difficult to make sense of considering english obviously isn't your native language. With that in mind I'm not going to try to address much of what you said, and only respond to the concept of Jagex being a step behind.

 

 

 

This is a natural and expected condition in a game like this. With a player base in the hundreds of thousands and even millions, it is much more likely that players will stumble upon bugs and loopholes in the system, than that they will be found by Jagex staff members. That's just simple probability.

[bedman]

Sigh, the only, yes only, argument I see against these clans is:

 

"I can't buy it immediatelly, therefor it's bad"..

 

 

 

Again I ask you: how did you do it before the ge? - many items were bought out by billions a day by single persons (I remember duke owning 1B essence at some point at once).. Really those clan-buyouts pale in comparisation to the half jug of wine/other buyouts that happened then. - But back then it was deemed "normal".. In some way runescape is transforming more and more in hug-scape: we always have to help each other, and every competition/unequality seems to be bad..

 

 

 

Bedman summed up the solution (which I posted the day GE was implimented already in the suggestion forum) quite nicely.

 

 

 

 

 

I think we all agree the G.E. should be dynamic, however you have to be out of your mind if you think that buyouts were anywhere close to as widespread or severe as they are today. Back the it was IMPOSSIBLE to buy out an entire stock as you could never find an entire stock. There would always be people who still had some and were still selling. Now the vast majority of all transactions(especially bulk transactions) take place in the G.E. due to the greater range of prices available when compared to player to player trading.

 

 

 

The fact that it's a one stop shop for manipulators makes it possible for them to achieve buyouts on a scale that was completely unheard of pre-G.E. In fact I think it's safe to say that before the G.E. the average player had never even heard of clan manipulation.

 

 

 

The fact that there was no central market pre-G.E. meant that if someone was price gouging, a player could almost always find someone willing to sell for a more reasonable price.

 

 

 

As far as half wines got, it's totally irrelevant as there is no practical use for a half wine, so the only people interested in buying these were usually other merchants.

 

 

 

Also if the only argument you've seen against them concerns not being able to buy immediately, then I strongly suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills, or possibly go to an optometrist.

 

 

 

Very nicely put.

 

 

 

I wanted to add something about how the fact that the price is instantly 'raised' after such a buy-out, in stead of having to wait days/weeks makes it all more fluid, and makes the price return to normal quickly, but I already said that and I dont want to sound like a politician who keeps repeating himself (like most do), so I'll just keep it at a "+1".

 

(and wow , that's a long sentence)

[Georgelemmons]

Thread was not found; the thread does not exist (perhaps it is no longer on the Forums).

 

 

 

... A screenie would have helped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, this does work just like in real life. If a person or group can buy a valued commodity and hold on to it for long enough, the price will rise from the extra demand, and then those people sell for a profit and the prices gradually go back down. I don't particularly like merchant clans, but they're not doing anything against the rules. To people who have their leaders dump on them, that's a risk they take, and their own fault.

[Latinoking]

I'm not going to try to address much of what you said, and only respond to the concept of Jagex being a step behind.

 

 

 

This is a natural and expected condition in a game like this. With a player base in the hundreds of thousands and even millions, it is much more likely that players will stumble upon bugs and loopholes in the system, than that they will be found by Jagex staff members. That's just simple probability.

 

 

 

So just because there's millions (most of which are unactive accounts) of players, that gives Jagex the right to take MONTHS or even YEARS to finally take action? Where's the staff that has to check this? And why can't Jagex staff members stumble upon the bugs and the loopholes, as they are the ones who are creating the darn things. Are you really trying to say that Jagex is too stupid for not thinking stuff before they release them to the runescape public?

 

 

 

Don't compare RuneScape to other MMOs to other ones which not only have MORE players and actually take actions in less than a day.

 

 

 

It's find to accept Jagex as it is, but don't complain about things (Merchanting Clans) and then afterwards since there's "a lot of members", that it should take them a long to fix the problems. Also calling Mod Mat K a "hero" and giving Jagex a "pat in the back" is very dumb, since they are the very people who don't think stuff beforehand and when they actually "monitor" things and want to actually TAKE ACTION it takes them months or years.

[Master_Smither]

I'm not going to try to address much of what you said, and only respond to the concept of Jagex being a step behind.

 

 

 

This is a natural and expected condition in a game like this. With a player base in the hundreds of thousands and even millions, it is much more likely that players will stumble upon bugs and loopholes in the system, than that they will be found by Jagex staff members. That's just simple probability.

 

 

 

So just because there's millions (most of which are unactive accounts) of players, that gives Jagex the right to take MONTHS or even YEARS to finally take action? Where's the staff that has to check this? And why can't Jagex staff members stumble upon the bugs and the loopholes, as they are the ones who are creating the darn things. Are you really trying to say that Jagex is too stupid for not thinking stuff before they release them to the runescape public?

 

 

 

Don't compare RuneScape to other MMOs to other ones which not only have MORE players and actually take actions in less than a day.

 

 

 

It's find to accept Jagex as it is, but don't complain about things (Merchanting Clans) and then afterwards since there's "a lot of members", that it should take them a long to fix the problems. Also calling Mod Mat K a "hero" and giving Jagex a "pat in the back" is very dumb, since they are the very people who don't think stuff beforehand and when they actually "monitor" things and want to actually TAKE ACTION it takes them months or years.

 

 

 

 

1. Why do we have this rule?

 

We have put a lot of effort into balancing our games to make them as fair and fun as possible. Unintended bugs can spoil the effect of a game, so we obviously want to fix them as quickly as possible. Deliberately taking advantage of a bug can unbalance the game or devalue other players' efforts, therefore it is against the rules.

 

 

 

That is the rule quoted from the KB and during sign up you agreed on a legal contract to these rules so saying it's their fault the bugs are there and you should be able to abuse them whenever you wish is wrong and a totally unacceptable agrument.

 

 

 

As for no being able to take action, not every staff member works towards the rules and the players and very few staff members know much about how the grand exchange works and they, most likely are working on the fix right now. Until we see what exactly goes on at Jagex you can't say much about them. Who knows maybe they have been banning people and just not saying so?

[n64jive]

I'm not going to try to address much of what you said, and only respond to the concept of Jagex being a step behind.

 

 

 

This is a natural and expected condition in a game like this. With a player base in the hundreds of thousands and even millions, it is much more likely that players will stumble upon bugs and loopholes in the system, than that they will be found by Jagex staff members. That's just simple probability.

 

 

 

So just because there's millions (most of which are unactive accounts) of players, that gives Jagex the right to take MONTHS or even YEARS to finally take action? Where's the staff that has to check this? And why can't Jagex staff members stumble upon the bugs and the loopholes, as they are the ones who are creating the darn things. Are you really trying to say that Jagex is too stupid for not thinking stuff before they release them to the runescape public?

 

 

 

Don't compare RuneScape to other MMOs to other ones which not only have MORE players and actually take actions in less than a day.

 

 

 

It's find to accept Jagex as it is, but don't complain about things (Merchanting Clans) and then afterwards since there's "a lot of members", that it should take them a long to fix the problems. Also calling Mod Mat K a "hero" and giving Jagex a "pat in the back" is very dumb, since they are the very people who don't think stuff beforehand and when they actually "monitor" things and want to actually TAKE ACTION it takes them months or years.

 

 

 

 

1. Why do we have this rule?

 

We have put a lot of effort into balancing our games to make them as fair and fun as possible. Unintended bugs can spoil the effect of a game, so we obviously want to fix them as quickly as possible. Deliberately taking advantage of a bug can unbalance the game or devalue other players' efforts, therefore it is against the rules.

 

 

 

That is the rule quoted from the KB and during sign up you agreed on a legal contract to these rules so saying it's their fault the bugs are there and you should be able to abuse them whenever you wish is wrong and a totally unacceptable agrument.

 

 

 

As for no being able to take action, not every staff member works towards the rules and the players and very few staff members know much about how the grand exchange works and they, most likely are working on the fix right now. Until we see what exactly goes on at Jagex you can't say much about them. Who knows maybe they have been banning people and just not saying so?

 

 

 

Legally and ethically are two different things. For example, if people truely did lose items over yesterdays bugs, legally Jagex is not responsible. However, I know if I spent years on this game(which I have) and then one day have an 100M+ item removed from me, I would be greatly dishearted. This has happened in the past, and Jagex sticks by there "We do not return items lost for any reason" policy.

 

 

 

Just as legally, price manipulators can continue what they are doing as much as they want. But ethically, it's wrong. The world isn't perfect

[forestfrolic]

If you haven't read the thread, don't post an essay. Everything people have been saying have been said already..

 

 

 

So if Jagex were to make price manipulation against the rules, how should they/would they go about enforcing it and stopping it?

[acenator]

So if Jagex were to make price manipulation against the rules, how should they/would they go about enforcing it and stopping it?

 

 

 

Personally, I say they need to come out and state their stance on the issue (likely to be that price manipulation is wrong and needs to stop if the KB and the forum rules mean anything), issue a rule against organizing price manipulation groups, ban the leaders of manipulation clans that don't shut down (this would eventually become hard to track, but should still be part of the fight against price manipulation clans), and start repeating what has happened to limpwurts only for every item being manipulated (it's really not that hard to tell if an item is being manipulated or rising naturally).

 

 

 

Just issueing the statement and rule will shut down the majority of these clans and, once a few leaders have been banned and a ton of money has been lost from prices being lowered in the middle of a buyout, I highly doubt there would be very many people left in the price manipulation "community."

[Nathaninch]

So if Jagex were to make price manipulation against the rules, how should they/would they go about enforcing it and stopping it?

 

a whole new thread might be best.

 

 

 

need some time to think about that one.

[EGmaestro]

So if Jagex were to make price manipulation against the rules, how should they/would they go about enforcing it and stopping it?

 

a whole new thread might be best.

 

 

 

need some time to think about that one.

 

 

 

i already did that, but they just said use this one and locked it. just keep it here.

[forestfrolic]

So if Jagex were to make price manipulation against the rules, how should they/would they go about enforcing it and stopping it?

 

a whole new thread might be best.

 

 

 

need some time to think about that one.

 

 

 

i already did that, but they just said use this one and locked it. just keep it here.

 

 

 

Yeah, I would have the title changed to Jagex and Manipulator clans discussion since that is where the conversation has to go, and is going. We're no longer talking about Mod Mat K really, we're talking about the rules and the clans.

[Master_Smither]

 

 

 

So if Jagex were to make price manipulation against the rules, how should they/would they go about enforcing it and stopping it?

 

 

 

Jagex has a log of all GE transaction for a certain amount of time as they do for who cashing in penguin points and how your drops in pvp have been. Jagex monitors alot of the game including clicks so they are fully capable of figuring out who is manipulating and who is not. Now of course as stated above if they shut down the leaders there will be a bunch of unorganized players with intentions to price manipulation running around and most of them won't go and try to form a whole new clan after Jagex puts down the ban hammer. As a matter of fact less people have been in price manipulator cc's after the account lockings and the limp escapade happened.

[Naraku893]

The merchant clans need to go. Tired of losing money after buying a godsword or claws holding it for a couple days.

[Punitive_D]

The merchant clans need to go. Tired of losing money after buying a godsword or claws holding it for a couple days.

 

 

 

First, I don't think that godswords or claws have been price manipulated, not recently anyway. Under the best of circumstances, prices will go up and down. And because the number of things like godswords and claws are constantly increasing, the price always is going to trend down in the long run, so if you're buying and selling them randomly, you will always tend to lose money. Guess what? The same thing will happen to you IRL -- wait until you buy a car.

 

 

 

Second, if you're only going to hold for a couple of days, why would you buy in the first place? This is what borrowing is for.

 

 

 

Third, I bought an sgs and claws a very long time ago. I'm quite sure that the price has dropped since, but I haven't lost a single coin, and do you want to know why? I've never sold. Same goes for Bandos. Same goes for Armadyl. Same goes for most expensive items that I bought. (I did sell and lose money on the saradomin sword, but I didn't care because I didn't sell until I could afford to upgrade.) If you follow this simple rule, you won't be disappointed by ordinary price fluctuations: if you can't afford for the price of an item to drop, then you can't afford the item. If you insist on buying something that you cannot really afford and then selling it after a couple days when the price has dipped, consider that a reasonable rental value that you paid for the use of the item.

[FerretCU]

I'm not part of a merchanting group but I do solo invest in items [iNVEST NOT BUYOUT]

 

 

 

Honestly I don't understand why you people always scream that they're abusing the system and are manipulating and such things. Technically they're doing nothing of the sort, they use what was given to them and profit off it. End.

 

 

 

What I find amusing is the masses of people that scream out against investors and then turn around and go 26k trick with someone, do ya wanna talk about what's cheap and should be against the rules? How would you propose you get rid of merchanting? Set price on all items? Explain it to me, please do. Most of the people that are against it are just too plain thick to understand what items to pick out and invest in and more then likely lost loads trying to pick it up. Don't lie, because I bet that's what it is.

 

 

 

The average investor would not make as much as a 26k tricker with luck. Yeah sure, ooo ya can't buy out items on the GE, use the forums or try asking someone in a bank, they might have what your looking for. Getting lucky and getting a DFS or more off risking just under 100k though? And your friend doesn't even lose 100k for you to get profit? Give me a break. Let's talk about who Jagex should REALLY be looking at to stop. :shame: Shame on you all.

[hihihi727]

Manipulating is no different from PVP! Seriously... could anyone care to tell me that difference and why clan manipulating is so much worse?

[acenator]

Manipulating is no different from PVP! Seriously... could anyone care to tell me that difference and why clan manipulating is so much worse?

 

People have a choice to go to pvp worlds and risk their items. People that don't want to get directly affected by PVP (ie going to a pvp world and pking) don't have to, but manipulation clans affect anyone in the market for whatever items they are manipulating whether said people want to be directly affected or not.

[n64jive]

I'm not part of a merchanting group but I do solo invest in items [iNVEST NOT BUYOUT]

 

 

 

Honestly I don't understand why you people always scream that they're abusing the system and are manipulating and such things. Technically they're doing nothing of the sort, they use what was given to them and profit off it. End.

 

 

 

What I find amusing is the masses of people that scream out against investors and then turn around and go 26k trick with someone, do ya wanna talk about what's cheap and should be against the rules? How would you propose you get rid of merchanting? Set price on all items? Explain it to me, please do. Most of the people that are against it are just too plain thick to understand what items to pick out and invest in and more then likely lost loads trying to pick it up. Don't lie, because I bet that's what it is.

 

 

 

The average investor would not make as much as a 26k tricker with luck. Yeah sure, ooo ya can't buy out items on the GE, use the forums or try asking someone in a bank, they might have what your looking for. Getting lucky and getting a DFS or more off risking just under 100k though? And your friend doesn't even lose 100k for you to get profit? Give me a break. Let's talk about who Jagex should REALLY be looking at to stop. :shame: Shame on you all.

 

 

 

...its really no different then killing kbd's for days, except it has a broader range of items. In reality, soloing the KBD has no risks. It's simple to do, and can drop the visage. In retrospect, for pvp you have to spend 2 hours in a hotzone risking at least 75k. Just like KBD, although you could lose your risk, you would have to be slacking quite a bit to do so(protect item)...

 

 

 

Really all Jagex did is give a way to make money while training non-combat skills(brawlers)...Each brawler gives me roughly 400k-600k mining xp, the way I do it, + profit from 26king + small profit from ores(if I don't get pked, which happens a lot).

 

 

 

The other day, I made 2m in 2 hours of playing. Today, I made 300k in 2 hours of playing. It's just as consistent as slayer. This post is poorly written because it's late, and I'm just trying to get it out before I go, but it pretty much straight up combats your argument. Anything you bring to the plate will be shot down. I don't mean to be arrogant, I'm just saying thats why Jagex doesn't consider any problems with 26k trick...(it shouldn't even be a trick...it's more like expelling your earned potential.)...I wish Jagex would just simplify the process. Instead of having a friend come lose 26k per 25%, I wish jagex would just have it so you could trade it to a guy for a random drop. Put the guy in the wild, that way it still has the same risk.

 

 

 

As for actual pking: It's full of rushers, dharokers, and 1 itemers. I hate that dharokers think they don't have to skull against people using whip. You wearing better armour, thats why it's worth more. So if I get the best four item strength bonus in the game, you don't expect me to skull because I'm risking millions...sorry, thats another subject, it just grinds my gears. Anyway, the only way it's worth actually going to the wild and pking is if you're going to do BH and strictly dm your targets. You get 30% of their armour+ your pvp drop. That way when you kill a guy for 1m in gear, you actually get 1m in drops(or hopefully) instead of the lame 300k, which I'm used to seeing.