Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[FooK-A-Ji]

Lets see how many updates can be squeezed in, between now, and the day something is actually physically done about it.

 

 

 

I hope this problem devolves itself into a situation where both parties can reach mutual agreement, without the feeling of being cheated out of an advantage.

 

 

 

I'm also looking forward to an official post on the front page addressing this topic, since people posting pictures and directing us to lone-standing posts from jagex employees simply does NOT cut the cake.

 

 

 

An official front page post is an act of unison on Jagex' behalf, and taking single statements from various jagex employee's (who also are entitled their own opinion) and using it as leverage in a debate is grasping for straws, in an attempt to legitimize what one is saying.

 

 

 

So in conclusion one could question how plausible it is that Jagex are going to do anything in the near future except talk about the problem, until an official press release on the topic is made, making the issue "a real issue".

 

 

 

Because as of now the real situation is just a bunch of ranting from one side, alot of saying nothing from another side, and alot of babysitting and coo'ing and soothing the ranting players from Jagex' side and basically saying what the majority wants to hear.

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with the last part though, its just good business, that being the manipulation of ones own customer base.

 

So don't make the mistake of mistaking Jagex for idiots, merely because they have done the same to us a couple of times.

[hihihi727]

Manipulating is no different from PVP! Seriously... could anyone care to tell me that difference and why clan manipulating is so much worse?

 

People have a choice to go to pvp worlds and risk their items. People that don't want to get directly affected by PVP (ie going to a pvp world and pking) don't have to, but manipulation clans affect anyone in the market for whatever items they are manipulating whether said people want to be directly affected or not.

 

 

 

But no one chooses to die in a pvp world. If you put it that way, you could just choose not use the GE at all so you aren't directly affected.

[Zaaps1]

Manipulating is no different from PVP! Seriously... could anyone care to tell me that difference and why clan manipulating is so much worse?

 

People have a choice to go to pvp worlds and risk their items. People that don't want to get directly affected by PVP (ie going to a pvp world and pking) don't have to, but manipulation clans affect anyone in the market for whatever items they are manipulating whether said people want to be directly affected or not.

 

 

 

But no one chooses to die in a pvp world. If you put it that way, you could just choose not use the GE at all so you aren't directly affected.

 

 

 

Pking is not essential for gameplay. The GE is essential for gameplay.

 

 

 

Don't give me all that worthless stuff about, "oh well, you see, you could do everything yourself". No. How many people do that? Almost no one maybe? So little people don't use the GE that it's irrelevant.

[forestfrolic]

Manipulating is no different from PVP! Seriously... could anyone care to tell me that difference and why clan manipulating is so much worse?

 

People have a choice to go to pvp worlds and risk their items. People that don't want to get directly affected by PVP (ie going to a pvp world and pking) don't have to, but manipulation clans affect anyone in the market for whatever items they are manipulating whether said people want to be directly affected or not.

 

 

 

But no one chooses to die in a pvp world. If you put it that way, you could just choose not use the GE at all so you aren't directly affected.

 

 

 

The Grand Exchange establishes prices. Everyone is affected directly.

[strilmus]

Yep, he's right. Outside the GE, you can't trade too far out of the price range of an item even with a large trade limit from doing quests.

[SixFootOne]

This post isn't completely relevant to this, but i did notice some people mention pre ge manipulation. I just feel this is a good read on how it worked.

 

 

 

Kariga wrote:

 

So...rare prices aren't always all about the rarity of the item...

 

 

 

Rs2pleasant, if someone/a big group of people had the money, would it be possible to "manipulate" the prices of some discontinued item today, or would the community be too big for it?

 

 

 

 

 

I was executing price raises / drops right up until the time of my banning just about. Around March of 2006, I would message my friend Gdec Goat, who had 2 Phat Sets or so, whenever I planned to drop the prices. I'd find a morning where Party Hats weren't selling very well, and the only people buying on forums were those paying in Party Hats + Cash (for example they're buying Red for Yellow + cash, upgrading their Phat sort of thing).

 

 

 

I would then post on forums that I was selling my Party Hats off FAST!! An example of the title would be ":+: SELLING PHATS CHEAP :+:". Now, technically, yes, you're not supposed to say "Cheap" in the title, but they were actually cheap. Also it looks a bit desperate, which is what I want people to think. I'd sell off my first Phat Set, then I'd tell Gdec Goat to sell his Phat Set(s) off. He'd do the same, and he'd sell them at whatever price I told him to (within reason), to help further lower Party Hat prices. We also made sure to request "CASH ONLY", since we'd need cash to buy the Phats back (and we were in effect temporarily raising the price of GP in comparison to Party Hats).

 

 

 

By the time Gdec and myself had sold off 2-3 of our Phat sets combined, the market would be in a tailspin. People would be undercutting us, and trying to steal sales, which was exactly what we wanted. Sometimes we could drop Phat prices as low as 10-15% within one morning. But, the drop was extremely elastic, and bounced right back up once they hit a certain price. I'd begin buying right when prices looked their worst, buying back the Phats I sold at a 10% discount. Gdec did the same, and by the end of the day Party Hat prices would be exactly as they were at the beginning of the day. It was an interesting Merchanting tactic that provided huge profits, and was very fun to execute.

 

 

 

So to answer your question, I'd say yes, players could in-fact pull this off today. HOWEVER, the Party Hat merchanting community has actually dwindled over the past few years, and the only reason it might NOT work is because the population trading is, believe it or not, too small. The more action there is on the market, the further you can push the prices.

 

 

 

In case anyone wanted to read the full topic here it is.

 

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=611982

[Darkkalphite]

They get what they deserve.

 

Merching CC's make it hard to buy items on the Grand Exchange.

 

I once needed to wait one week to buy a saradomin sword on med, because a CC was merching it.

 

So I think it's good Jagex is finally taking action against them.

[Zaaps1]

This post isn't completely relevant to this, but i did notice some people mention pre ge manipulation. I just feel this is a good read on how it worked.

 

 

 

Kariga wrote:

 

So...rare prices aren't always all about the rarity of the item...

 

 

 

Rs2pleasant, if someone/a big group of people had the money, would it be possible to "manipulate" the prices of some discontinued item today, or would the community be too big for it?

 

 

 

 

 

I was executing price raises / drops right up until the time of my banning just about. Around March of 2006, I would message my friend Gdec Goat, who had 2 Phat Sets or so, whenever I planned to drop the prices. I'd find a morning where Party Hats weren't selling very well, and the only people buying on forums were those paying in Party Hats + Cash (for example they're buying Red for Yellow + cash, upgrading their Phat sort of thing).

 

 

 

I would then post on forums that I was selling my Party Hats off FAST!! An example of the title would be ":+: SELLING PHATS CHEAP :+:". Now, technically, yes, you're not supposed to say "Cheap" in the title, but they were actually cheap. Also it looks a bit desperate, which is what I want people to think. I'd sell off my first Phat Set, then I'd tell Gdec Goat to sell his Phat Set(s) off. He'd do the same, and he'd sell them at whatever price I told him to (within reason), to help further lower Party Hat prices. We also made sure to request "CASH ONLY", since we'd need cash to buy the Phats back (and we were in effect temporarily raising the price of GP in comparison to Party Hats).

 

 

 

By the time Gdec and myself had sold off 2-3 of our Phat sets combined, the market would be in a tailspin. People would be undercutting us, and trying to steal sales, which was exactly what we wanted. Sometimes we could drop Phat prices as low as 10-15% within one morning. But, the drop was extremely elastic, and bounced right back up once they hit a certain price. I'd begin buying right when prices looked their worst, buying back the Phats I sold at a 10% discount. Gdec did the same, and by the end of the day Party Hat prices would be exactly as they were at the beginning of the day. It was an interesting Merchanting tactic that provided huge profits, and was very fun to execute.

 

 

 

So to answer your question, I'd say yes, players could in-fact pull this off today. HOWEVER, the Party Hat merchanting community has actually dwindled over the past few years, and the only reason it might NOT work is because the population trading is, believe it or not, too small. The more action there is on the market, the further you can push the prices.

 

 

 

In case anyone wanted to read the full topic here it is.

 

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=611982

 

 

 

That's....really smart :shock:

[Punitive_D]

I once needed to wait one week to buy a saradomin sword on med, because a CC was merching it.

 

 

 

I have zero sympathy for someone who complains that they can't buy at med. The problem isn't merchers -- the problem is you're a cheapskate.

[Golvellius]

21 pages and I bet nobody has the solution.

 

But, don't worry I do.

 

Jagex can fix the prices to high alch price or whatever!

 

 

 

Who needs player controlled prices?

 

Its a game and I like it fair as possible.

 

The current system is so full of restrictions that it could only be made for the exploitation of a few non-players (merchant/gold seller).

 

It just plain just sucks @$$.

 

Its not even playable for anybody who knew better times in RS.

 

 

 

Of course you could open it all up again.

 

I mean the free markets and bots would eventually fix everything by pinching off the bloated wings of the most obscenely overpriced combat items making them no longer attractive to be horded around.

 

Of course, then everybody would cry about the bots, gold selling, and falling prices.

 

But other than the last item, eveything else is still going on today, much to Jagex's chagrin and constant idiotic tweeking.

[Racheya]

21 pages and I bet nobody has the solution.

 

But, don't worry I do.

 

Jagex can fix the prices to high alch price or whatever!

 

 

 

Who needs player controlled prices?

 

Its a game and I like it fair as possible.

 

The current system is so full of restrictions that it could only be made for the exploitation of a few non-players (merchant/gold seller).

 

It just plain just sucks @$$.

 

Its not even playable for anybody who knew better times in RS.

 

 

 

Of course you could open it all up again.

 

I mean the free markets and bots would eventually fix everything by pinching off the bloated wings of the most obscenely overpriced combat items making them no longer attractive to be horded around.

 

Of course, then everybody would cry about the bots, gold selling, and falling prices.

 

But other than the last item, eveything else is still going on today, much to Jagex's chagrin and constant idiotic tweeking.

 

If they get rid of the GE, like I think you're suggesting, then are you going to pay the legal costs for Jagex because of all the credit fraud being done by the gold sellers?

[Deathmath]

Price manipulation is bad. Can't be avoided without intervention. Therefore they should intervene to a certain degree, although old school merching was correct and cool ;)

[Hamtaro]

I'm more of a lurker on the TIF but here's my two cents. I have a few merch clans added to my RS friend's list. Do I buy what they are buying out? No. In fact, I take advantage of them and collect what they are buying and sell it for max price. That's what I did for limps and swamp lizards and I made a fortune (hence my new DFS). I tried working with dragon bones and I couldn't even sell them for minimum. When this happened I realized people are taking down merch clans. Here's some ways I've learned or made myself:[hide=]-Report the auto-talkers advertising their clans! Once the advertisers, hoping for ranks, get muted, they will refuse to advertise, cutting down the overall size of the clan and, therefore, cutting down on the amount of people buying out the item.

 

 

 

-Scare tactics. Join open CCs like goldiemerch and tell people that the cap for that item is whatever half way to their goal is. Or tell people something along the lines of "Sick of losing millions? Dump early!" You may find yourself kicked from the chat or added to the ignore list like myself, but hey, it's worth it.

 

 

 

-Go without the item for a few days. Once a merched item is nearing it's dump price, all of the leaders of the clans and the more conservative members will begin to dump their goods. At this point, DO NOT BUY. Once the members see the GE graphs showing a price drop, everyone will dump early causing a massive crash. Members of these clans will be upset at the millions they lost and will not try their luck with another merch clan ever again.

 

 

 

-Tell gullible rank members (or regular members) a fake cap price for an item. They may foolishly believe you and tell everyone to dump without the leader's permission. That's what I did with swamp lizards (after I sold the ones I caught, of course) and it worked at roughly 9% of their goal.

 

 

 

-Put an artificial supply into the market. Gather or collect a lot of the item and sell it at max price. You'll earn a nice profit and hurt merch clans as well :thumbsup:.[/hide]

 

 

 

What I'm trying to say is price manipulation clans are easily manipulated themselves and if Jagex only takes limited action, we can and must take action. Price-manipulating scammers must be dealt with. Pump and Dump scams happen in the real world ALL of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gck0lPvWyhE

 

 

 

P.S. The "price cap" of Yew Seeds is 200k ;) .

[ValaraZ]

You all dont get it. These clans arnt doing anything wrong, its the mechanic of the GE thats broken. Dont hate the players, hate the game.

 

 

 

You're a [wagon].

[FooK-A-Ji]

You all dont get it. These clans arnt doing anything wrong, its the mechanic of the GE thats broken. Dont hate the players, hate the game.

 

 

 

You're a [wagon].

 

At least he has an agenda and the ability to make a constructive post.

 

Your post on the other hand, dropped this whole threads average IQ by 10 points. ;)

[Teeg]

 

There is no law that says "don't put a truckload of donkey heads into a catapult and fire them at your neighbor's house," but obviously that's not ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nooooooooo!!!!

 

 

 

Just when I'd bought out the entire stock of donkey heads. :wall:

 

 

 

 

 

D'oh

 

 

 

Teeg

[Darkkalphite]

I once needed to wait one week to buy a saradomin sword on med, because a CC was merching it.

 

 

 

I have zero sympathy for someone who complains that they can't buy at med. The problem isn't merchers -- the problem is you're a cheapskate.

 

Sorry that I don't want to pay 600k extra, I just don't like to waste it like that.

[Punitive_D]

I once needed to wait one week to buy a saradomin sword on med, because a CC was merching it.

 

 

 

I have zero sympathy for someone who complains that they can't buy at med. The problem isn't merchers -- the problem is you're a cheapskate.

 

Sorry that I don't want to pay 600k extra, I just don't like to waste it like that.

 

 

 

I rest my case.

[Earth_Poet]

I once needed to wait one week to buy a saradomin sword on med, because a CC was merching it.

 

 

 

I have zero sympathy for someone who complains that they can't buy at med. The problem isn't merchers -- the problem is you're a cheapskate.

 

Sorry that I don't want to pay 600k extra, I just don't like to waste it like that.

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

 

 

What case? He doesn't want to buy something above its true value? Are you suggesting that it's smarter to make impulsive, "gotta-have-it-now" buys? He's trying to be smart with his money. He sees there's an artificial demand being created by manipulators, and he doesn't want to be taken advantage of. Maybe you should elaborate whatever point you were trying to make, because right now you make no sense at all. You'd be a used car salesman's dream customer the way you are handing out advice.

 

 

 

Price-manipulating scammers must be dealt with. Pump and Dump scams happen in the real world ALL of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gck0lPvWyhE

 

 

 

Pump-and-Dump is more about creating speculation in the market by sending out false information bolstering a particular stock. I see where you are making similarities though. As for everything else I liked your post. You should post more often!

 

 

 

You all dont get it. These clans arnt doing anything wrong, its the mechanic of the GE thats broken. Dont hate the players, hate the game.

 

 

 

You're a [wagon].

 

 

 

He may have said it like a thug, but he is right. It's the GE system that is the inherent problem. It doesn't mean that merchant clans aren't guilty of abusing it though.

[Dragonlordjl]

If Jagex would just add a "you cannot own more than 3" clause in the coding to all items worth over 5m then it'd stop the MAJORITY of merchanters. They also need to ban Chessy, A C I D Y, and other leaders of merchant cartels.

[Earth_Poet]

If Jagex would just add a "you cannot own more than 3" clause in the coding to all items worth over 5m then it'd stop the MAJORITY of merchanters. They also need to ban Chessy, A C I D Y, and other leaders of merchant cartels.

 

 

 

Not a cartel. More restrictions on everybody isn't the answer either. If you set it at 5m items, they'll just start "merching" 4m items. I've noticed manipulation occurs more common on lower priced items that you can buy massive bulks of such as potions, seeds, etc.

[Master_Smither]

If Jagex would just add a "you cannot own more than 3" clause in the coding to all items worth over 5m then it'd stop the MAJORITY of merchanters. They also need to ban Chessy, A C I D Y, and other leaders of merchant cartels.

 

 

 

Not a cartel. More restrictions on everybody isn't the answer either. If you set it at 5m items, they'll just start "merching" 4m items. I've noticed manipulation occurs more common on lower priced items that you can buy massive bulks of such as potions, seeds, etc.

 

 

 

I agree putting a limit on items is not the answer. However clearly stating it is against the rules and banning a few of the big players who have billions upon billions of gold will put the point across and say "Hey, we're not afraid to ban big players with a big bank roll and lots of friends!". But I think both sides can agree on something they need to make a statement for all players to see what their stance behind price manipulation is.

[Punitive_D]

What case? He doesn't want to buy something above its true value? Are you suggesting that it's smarter to make impulsive, "gotta-have-it-now" buys? He's trying to be smart with his money. He sees there's an artificial demand being created by manipulators, and he doesn't want to be taken advantage of. Maybe you should elaborate whatever point you were trying to make, because right now you make no sense at all. You'd be a used car salesman's dream customer the way you are handing out advice.

 

 

 

This poster was whining that s/he took a week to buy a big ticket item on the GE at mid and blamed it on price manipulation. If an item can't be bought at mid but can be bought, then it's not being manipulated. If the price were being manipulated up, it would be bought out. If the item were being dumped, you could buy for mid. If the whiny poster had complained that the item could not be bought for a week for ANY price, then that's probably price manipulation. But the scenario being described by the whiny poster is normal -- big ticket items are not commodity items and frequently are difficult to buy at mid. If you want the item fast (as the whiny poster apparently did), offer max. If you're too cheap to pay the going rate (and I've been there myself), then just shut up and wait. You don't get something for nothing, and if you want a cheap price, then the cost frequently will be some time waiting for a desperate seller.

[Punitive_D]

If Jagex would just add a "you cannot own more than 3" clause in the coding to all items worth over 5m then it'd stop the MAJORITY of merchanters.

 

 

 

True, but why would you want to eliminate a major aspect of gameplay? That's like saying getting rid of bh worlds would eliminate the 26k trick. It's true, but it would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[Atom Smash40]

it technically is against the rules...

 

 

 

found this on runescape.com

 

 

 

This makes it harder for players to manipulate prices and ensures that everyone gets a fair deal.

 

 

 

We will only intervene as a last resort, and only if we think price manipulation is going on, although the system has lots of safeguards to prevent that.