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A REAL Solution to Price Manipulation


Earth_Poet

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Your on the right track here but I don't think you have the right solutions yet. I feel this thread was needed because the other manipulation thread was 35 pages of arguments mixed with good ideas which got little to no response.

 

I'll agree that my idea may not be the perfect solution, but I hope it can move us in the right direction. I don't want to start another thread of "it's wrong! no it's not! yes it is! no it's not!" This circular argument gets us nowhere. There are people out there who have legitimate concerns about price manipulation, and have legitimate reasons why it should stop. The sooner we can find common ground, the better.

 

1. The official statement

 

 

 

Good idea it has to be done and the longer they delay it the more damage that wull be done to the economy. I have a feeling something like a riot is the only way to get their attention about something like this. But riots are bad and you should never do them ;)

 

I have a feeling any changes are going to flare tempers and may cause riots, but yes, Jagex needs to speak up either way.

 

2. GE only worlds

 

 

 

Bad idea it would me massive lag and spam even with all worlds with the GE open it is still laggy and spammy. It a good idea but what will become of it is players flooding the server with login requests to get on to sell their items and people who can't get in selling their items for less than they are worth or not being able to sell them at all. The bad outweighs the good in this case so I say scratch this idea.

 

Old-school World 2, Falador Park anyone?

 

3. Bank Wire Transactions

 

 

 

Good idea would increase player trading overall but manipulators can post on forums too and have all the sellers sell to them before someone not maniplating gets to them first. Decent idea with some draw backs.

 

The difference is manipulators have to come out of the shadows in order to do this. Before the GE, anybody trying to price manipulate or scam through the forums were locked, deleted, or even action taken against the guilty parties. And that's if the mods could get to the forum before the flamers would eat them up and call them out.

 

The only sure fire way to atleast slow manipulation is going to have to be banhammering the big guys such as chessy and smokin mils. This will create fear in the tag alongs and make them worry if they will be banned if they continue.

 

You can't put a plate of cookies in front of the fat kid, and tell him not to eat any. If the fat kid thinks he can get away with it, he'll eat a cookie.

 

 

 

A poster on another thread said, "hate the game, not the player." Although the poster was just showing his [wagon], there is some truth to this. Simply banning players is a finger-in-the-dike solution. Without changing the system, there will always be more players cropping up. Look at autoers. Jagex has had very strict rules against macro programs for years, yet players are still willing to risk it all and try it. No, the system has to change, and instead of more regulations, I feel we could turn the market against price manipulators by creating more competition against not only them, but the GE as well.

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Your on the right track here but I don't think you have the right solutions yet. I feel this thread was needed because the other manipulation thread was 35 pages of arguments mixed with good ideas which got little to no response.

 

I'll agree that my idea may not be the perfect solution, but I hope it can move us in the right direction. I don't want to start another thread of "it's wrong! no it's not! yes it is! no it's not!" This circular argument gets us nowhere. There are people out there who have legitimate concerns about price manipulation, and have legitimate reasons why it should stop. The sooner we can find common ground, the better.

 

 

 

Yup thats basically what I ment you just made it extremely wordy.

 

 

 

1. The official statement

 

 

 

Good idea it has to be done and the longer they delay it the more damage that wull be done to the economy. I have a feeling something like a riot is the only way to get their attention about something like this. But riots are bad and you should never do them ;)

 

I have a feeling any changes are going to flare tempers and may cause riots, but yes, Jagex needs to speak up either way.

 

I ment that there would have to be a riot before Jagex would even consider making an official announcement about it.

 

 

 

2. GE only worlds

 

 

 

Bad idea it would me massive lag and spam even with all worlds with the GE open it is still laggy and spammy. It a good idea but what will become of it is players flooding the server with login requests to get on to sell their items and people who can't get in selling their items for less than they are worth or not being able to sell them at all. The bad outweighs the good in this case so I say scratch this idea.

 

Old-school World 2, Falador Park anyone?

 

 

 

Yes but back then to even get into the log in screen for world 2 you had to refresh the page until it updated and showed as not FULL. Now you can click even if it is full and just spam click log-in until you get it. It was easier to get into w2 Fally park to get a good deal back then and most people had a forum post and were in Fally park at the same time and would hop to close the deal.

 

 

 

Now people are addicted to the GE and would do anything to sell their items especially if they only seel for over min or at max. So no it would be nothing like Fally Park was because people would log into those lag filled worlds to use the ge and maybe do some trading via the trade window. But players already do that in world 2 now.

 

 

 

3. Bank Wire Transactions

 

 

 

Good idea would increase player trading overall but manipulators can post on forums too and have all the sellers sell to them before someone not maniplating gets to them first. Decent idea with some draw backs.

 

The difference is manipulators have to come out of the shadows in order to do this. Before the GE, anybody trying to price manipulate or scam through the forums were locked, deleted, or even action taken against the guilty parties. And that's if the mods could get to the forum before the flamers would eat them up and call them out.

 

The only sure fire way to atleast slow manipulation is going to have to be banhammering the big guys such as chessy and smokin mils. This will create fear in the tag alongs and make them worry if they will be banned if they continue.

 

You can't put a plate of cookies in front of the fat kid, and tell him not to eat any. If the fat kid thinks he can get away with it, he'll eat a cookie.

 

 

 

A poster on another thread said, "hate the game, not the player." Although the poster was just showing his [wagon], there is some truth to this. Simply banning players is a finger-in-the-dike solution. Without changing the system, there will always be more players cropping up. Look at autoers. Jagex has had very strict rules against macro programs for years, yet players are still willing to risk it all and try it. No, the system has to change, and instead of more regulations, I feel we could turn the market against price manipulators by creating more competition against not only them, but the GE as well.

 

 

 

As I said in my part of the post you quoted and at the end of my post, it totally get rid of price manipulation but when you get rid of the main players you cause unstability and make some clans fail along with making the honest players as you said quit doing it.

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As a new generation player (started after GE was released) I would HATE having to go to a designated world for use of a GE. would be very unconvinient etc. I would hate looking for players and forums for a trade. I like the convinience of going to the ge and doing what i want in like 30 seconds.

 

 

 

It would really annoy me if that was implemented. I dont have a solution however, just sharing my thoughts on that matter

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I really think price manipulation is over played. The GE makes it easier, but people have been price manipulating since the beginning. Even the great old school merchants price manipulated. If you think Chewy, Duke, R2, and others didn't throw their wealth around, or collaborate with other wealthy individuals to try to corner the market, then you are sadly mistaken. Why didn't the players notice? Because Jagex didn't show the curve of prices on a shiny graph. I remember duke always made his own graphs, which probably attributes to a lot of his success(it does make predicting trends easier, doesn't it?)...

 

 

 

Like you said the whole problem is the GE, which Jagex needs to fix. I like your bank wire idea, however, as said, merchanters can still get together and collaborate on buying out the market. Coming out of the shadows or not, Jagex isn't going to ban someone for using their system, and figuring out the advantages. This whole game is about manipulating Jagex's system. Safespots, 26king, and GE manipulation are all one in the same. The big difference is how obvious effect it has on the rs population. 26king is also going to ruin the market(flooding the economy with cash), yet you don't see many people worried about it? Why? Because the only people who lose, are those who don't do it. If I go on a break right now with 100m in my bank, and come back a month later...the 100m I had is going to be worth significantly less if the cash keeps flooding into the market at the rate it is(I brought in 4m today while only playing for 3.5 hours). This is by far the most significant means of creating gold(the worse part is it stacks with alching...I can gain potential alching for 2 hours...brining in cash, go 26k trick, and bring in more cash...if everyone did this, it's going to create a massive gap between the rich and the poor)...

 

 

 

Do I think it should be eradicated from the game? No...It's a games economy. Massive gp in the game doesn't pose a real threat. Rapidly fluctuating prices doesn't pose a real threat. It just makes the game more challenging. If people would get out of the "I want this now" mind frame, then people would realize they could take advantage of manipulation clans. When items are manipulated, they always create a sin wave pattern. If you consider the middle the real price of the item(which fluctuates, but almost insignificantly), then by watching the graphs and making smart decisions, you could get things at a cheaper price. Instead, all you hear about is the whiners. If the whiners took my advice, none of them would complain that price manipulation was a bad thing, because it allowed them to get their items cheaper.

 

 

 

All in all, I think the topic is over rated. It's a game. Play it. And when other players take advantages of Jagex's system that ruins your gameplay, be creative and try to get the ball in your court. I don't start threads on how I shouldn't be able to be pked while I'm skilling in wild. These people gain nothing out of killing me, yet they are completely hindering my experience...guess what, thats part of the game. Deal with it. Sadly, due to the large attention to this topic, Jagex will more than likely take action. When Jagex intervenes, I'd say its hinders the gameplay for me significantly more than the original "problem".

 

 

 

(btw, I have a lil over 5m in the bank, I do not partake in GE manipulation, and I play the game to have fun)...

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I like the idea you made about bank-wire transactions and think it should be taken a step further.

 

 

 

I think on the GE or at banks there should be an option for bank-wire transactions. When you choose that a screen will pop up and just like the GE you choose what you want to buy or sell and it brings you a real time list of players currently online and offline (you can choose to select online, offline or to show both). You will then select a player view how much of what he has for sale and for what price and all that good stuff and on his screen a message will show up kind of like teleport other telling him player x wants to perform a bank-wire transaction at such and such price for x items, do you accept? and he'll read it over and accept or decline.

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I think if Jagex wanted to get rid of Price Manipulators they should just make an official post on the frontpage stating that if they find from from that time on of people price manipulating they will be banned. This will deter majoraty of people in merching clans if not whole clans, if any people still attempt this than Jagex will ban them, everyone else will know they are serious and will avoid merching if possible.

 

 

 

I don't really like the thought of G.E. only on certain worlds because these updates shouldn't have to negatively affect the average player to crack-down on a smaller part of the community.

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I certainly hope nobody is nostalgic about the days before the GE. I was playing before the GE, and I can tell you, the old trade system was crap. I hated it. Trading over the forums sucked. You had to check the thread and bump it and it sucked. Trying to sell your stuff in a random bank was even worse, and just a horribly awful experience I would never want anyone to have to go through. And W2 was no better. You had to make your way into an eternally-full world where half the population was crammed into a small area in Falador, with ridiculous lag. And then you had to look around to find someone selling what you needed, or else holler that you were selling, which was basically the same as trying to sell stuff in a random bank, only with more lag.

 

 

 

On top of all that, you had to already know the price of what you were selling, because if you offered it for too low you'd get ripped off, and if you offered it for too high, you'd get laughed at. And heaven forbid you should try to buy or sell something obscure, like plain pizza or karambwan or unpowered orbs. You could be waiting for hours.

 

 

 

If I couldn't access the Grand Exchange with the same convenience with which I can access it now, I'd be ranting about it. And I never rant about updates. Stopping merchanting clans is one thing, but this proposed solution is worse than the problem. Absolutely not. You want to stop merchanting clans by making fewer people use the GE? What's next? End shoplifting by making all the stores sell nothing but garbage that nobody wants to steal?

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There is a lot here that I both agree and disagree with. Yes, merchant clans and price manipulation is a big problem, but how we go about fixing it is going to bring more backlash than fifteen "bring back wildy" riots.

 

 

 

First, and most fundamentally, I absolutely reject the idea of reducing the number of worlds the GE is prevalent on. This would create a burden for players that actually want to do legitimate trading, rather than hamper those that want to manipulate - they'd just use the same old tactics for getting into World 2 and continue their deeds there.

 

 

 

I've always viewed the GE as nothing further than an unlimited version of your favorite trading world. We all know what the old World 2 was like - each section of Falador (first Varrock, THEN Falador) had its own micro-economy - you'd find partyhats and rares in one spot, Barrows equipment in another, and potions off to the side of the bank. Naturally, when you're dealing with the entire population of RS at one time, the economy goes a little wacky.

 

 

 

In a nutshell (or two), the influence of the GE is just fine, provided we have the ability to measure and control the amount of damage that could be done with such a wide influence. It was pointed out earlier that the GE's influence being cut down somewhat would not stop individuals who didn't use the GE from cornering the market - names that were famous enough were brought up, and I believe that if they all got together, they could have done major damage.

 

 

 

I personally don't like the idea of wire-transfers. Remember the bank-to-bank trading schema we were going to get with RS2? It was scrapped in favor of notes for every item (instead of certs for a handful of items). What you're proposing here is a system akin to the GE, in terms of its current ability to connect to any one person (albeit anonymously) to conduct a trade, and what I fear the most is that it can make insider trading ten times easier, since instead of dealing with 500,000 players selling Yew seeds, they can just trade and raise the price between themselves.

 

 

 

I did discuss this issue a month or so back in Mod MMG's chat, and the only real fact is the major effect this will have. It's going to be a positive one in spirit, but since merchant clans can be (and are) deeply entrenched in our economy, it'd be like ripping out the foundation of your house just getting to an annoying bush.

 

 

 

Overall it's a good effort, but I want to suggest some things to curb the effect of merchant clans.

 

 

 

1) Eliminate junk goods. We know what they are. I feel that the GE should optionally allow us to sell this to a general store (at a reduced return), to give us something back for the junk we've accrued. I'm thinking something along the lines of a 70% return, really - it makes no sense to profit on unstrung maple longs, but it makes no sense to keep them, either.

 

 

 

2) Add another check and balance to the system as it stands - checking to see if items are being bought and sold for a specific price by the same people. This is how the prices are getting so high, and this is how insider trading is occurring. I don't really care what happens if the system finds the flag - perhaps the GE could give you cash (median + 3% of what you were asking for this time), and not affect the rising trend of the item, while putting the item at a lower, more respectable price to facilitate trading. Of course, logically, you couldn't buy that item again until the GE updated.

 

 

 

That's what I've got right now. As I said before, the influence of the GE is, in my eyes, no different than a World 2 with the login caps removed. Now begins the process of fine tuning and tweaking it in favor of the masses, instead of the merchants.

 

 

 

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If I couldn't access the Grand Exchange with the same convenience with which I can access it now, I'd be ranting about it. And I never rant about updates. Stopping merchanting clans is one thing, but this proposed solution is worse than the problem. Absolutely not. You want to stop merchanting clans by making fewer people use the GE? What's next? End shoplifting by making all the stores sell nothing but garbage that nobody wants to steal?

 

 

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

 

 

As usual, the solutions to the "problem" are more onerous than the "problem" itself.

 

 

 

There are two unstated problems with the GE:

 

 

 

(1) The general populace perceives the GE as a huge store instead of being a marketplace.

 

(2) There is simply too much money floating around in Runescape

 

 

 

Solving (1) requires nothing more than some re-education and maturity. People must realize they are not entitled to go to the GE and buy items at a certain price if someone else is willing to pay more, for whatever reason. Players are entitled to go gather their own items if the GE price is too high, but to complain that the GE is broken is simply folly. IOW, "get off your lazy, spoiled backsides and go gather your own roots."

 

 

 

On to (2):

 

In the real world, you would never see manipulations on the scale that we see in the game. Why? Because in the real world, there is not enough private capital to move markets the way they are moved in Runescape. In the past, skills have been used as moneysinks (construction from the get-go, latter-day herblore, etc). This approach penalizes the small player instead of the so-called evil merchants.

 

 

 

The only real way to remove money from the game fairly is with a merchant tax. I shudder to think of the complexity in implementing it - but it would be a way of taxing the profits of the merchants and keeping them somewhat in check. Sufficient tax rates could discourage the process altogether. I guess you would have to calculate it on a transactional basis. If I buy 100,000 clean torstals @ 2500 per and sell them in a month for 2600 per, I have made 10,000,000 gp profit which is open to taxation. The GE looks at my history, sees I made a profit, and deducts 35-40% for taxes.

 

 

 

This would not be the same as an income tax, and would not tax items a player produced themselves. I am only speaking of taxing items bought and then later sold on the GE. So if I grew 100,000 torstols and sold them, I would not be taxed. But if I bought 100,000 torstols and then resold them, that is where I would be taxed.

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Here's a better solution: laissez-faire, let it be. They're doing nothing wrong, maybe unethical but nothing wrong, and any solution implemented by Jagex will, undoubtedly, be far worse than what we currently endure. I do not want them to touch the economy again.

 

 

 

no laissez-faire is bad, look at what happened in the 20s and 30s, harding, coolidge, and hoover were all in favour of laissez-faire, this helped to cause the great depression, and it wasn't till roosevelt was elected, and he intervened with the economy, that the situation improved

 

Crashes like that happen quite frequently (in the dgrand scheme of things) and laissez-faire is generally the best option for fixing them. I bet you didn't know that in 1889 there was a stock market crash that was statistically worse than the 1929 crash. The reason you don't know about it is that the recession that followed only lasted about a year and the economy was back up to about where it had been pre-crash within about 2-3 years. And here's the kicker: the government didn't do a thing. Same goes for the 1980's.

 

 

 

There was a recession following WWII. Truman tried to intervene with his own "New Deal" type plans, but got stopped by Congress and was followed by Ike who did pretty much nothing except build the freeways which were actually more for military purposes than anything else. We ended up with a huge boom that lasted through the '50s.

 

 

 

Now, let's take a look at 1929-1937 again. The stock market crashed AFTER Hoover passed the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif (definitely not laissez-faire). After the crash, Hoover moved in and started bailing out the large companies, but that, obviously didn't do much of anything and then FDR got elected. FDR then proceded to pump money into the economy (which didn't help much as unemployment still soared to 25%) only to have to later raise taxes and cause a recession within the depression. The only reason the Great Depression didn't last into the 1940's is the fact that WWII broke out in Europe and everyone got jobs making weapons.

 

 

 

Now, I'm not going to say that pure laissez-faire is necessarily a good thing. Monopolies, if not restricted properly (like many utility companies are (I wonder how many Americans know their utilities are run by legalized monopolies... :-k )), can cause many problems and should be dealt with in any economy. (there are other things that need to be regulated and stopped in any economy, like fraud, but that's for another discussion)

 

 

 

As for the solution to merchant clans in RS, I do not believe any changes to the GE are needed.

 

From the Mod Mat K thread:

 

Personally, I say they need to come out and state their stance on the issue (likely to be that price manipulation is wrong and needs to stop if the KB and the forum rules mean anything), issue a rule against organizing price manipulation groups, ban the leaders of manipulation clans that don't shut down (this would eventually become hard to track, but should still be part of the fight against price manipulation clans), and start repeating what has happened to limpwurts only for every item being manipulated (it's really not that hard to tell if an item is being manipulated or rising naturally).

 

 

 

Just issuing the statement and rule will shut down the majority of these clans and, once a few leaders have been banned and a ton of money has been lost from prices being lowered in the middle of a buyout, I highly doubt there would be very many people left in the price manipulation "community."

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[hide=lordkafei]

If I couldn't access the Grand Exchange with the same convenience with which I can access it now, I'd be ranting about it. And I never rant about updates. Stopping merchanting clans is one thing, but this proposed solution is worse than the problem. Absolutely not. You want to stop merchanting clans by making fewer people use the GE? What's next? End shoplifting by making all the stores sell nothing but garbage that nobody wants to steal?

 

 

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

 

 

As usual, the solutions to the "problem" are more onerous than the "problem" itself.

 

 

 

There are two unstated problems with the GE:

 

 

 

(1) The general populace perceives the GE as a huge store instead of being a marketplace.

 

(2) There is simply too much money floating around in Runescape

 

 

 

Solving (1) requires nothing more than some re-education and maturity. People must realize they are not entitled to go to the GE and buy items at a certain price if someone else is willing to pay more, for whatever reason. Players are entitled to go gather their own items if the GE price is too high, but to complain that the GE is broken is simply folly. IOW, "get off your lazy, spoiled backsides and go gather your own roots."

 

 

 

On to (2):

 

In the real world, you would never see manipulations on the scale that we see in the game. Why? Because in the real world, there is not enough private capital to move markets the way they are moved in Runescape. In the past, skills have been used as moneysinks (construction from the get-go, latter-day herblore, etc). This approach penalizes the small player instead of the so-called evil merchants.

 

 

 

The only real way to remove money from the game fairly is with an income tax. I shudder to think of the complexity in implementing it - but it would be a way of taxing the profits of the merchants and keeping them somewhat in check. Sufficient tax rates could discourage the process altogether. I guess you would have to calculate it on a transactional basis. If I buy 100,000 clean torstals @ 2500 per and sell them in a month for 2600 per, I have made 10,000,000 gp profit which is open to taxation. The GE looks at my history, sees I made a profit, and deducts 35-40% for taxes.

[/hide]

 

 

 

@1. I'm wondering when actually wanting to play the game turned into a luxury, and price manipulation turned into a necessity. Merchants may have a right to play the game, but unfortunately you don't get to do it at my expense, because I have a right to play, too. Hmm....maybe I should "get off my lazy, spoiled backside and gather" my own resources so you can waddle over to your computer and corner the market. You're right! I should work harder, so you can do less! /sarcasm

 

 

 

You're looking shortsighted at the "whiny" posts just as many of the "whiners" might be looking at their own situation. I'm trying to look at it from a bigger picture (in fact that's what most of my topic was explaining which makes me think you didn't even bother to read it), and I only see problems getting worse.

 

 

 

@2. There are several cases of manipulation in the real world that run very, very similar to what merchant clans are doing. The reason they don't reach these scales is because economists tend to smell a rat in their kitchen faster than teenage gamers. For example, Fisk/Gould were brought down by the government flooding more gold into the market and driving the prices down. Though inflation is always a problem, the GE is not creating inflation.

 

 

 

Though I'm not a fan of the tax system, but that gives some ideas. I knew suggesting limiting the GE would be unpopular, but it was better than the real idea I had in my head of doing away with the GE altogether, and I certainly believe it's better than set prices on all goods.

 

 

 

What I've heard is an overwhelming "no" to restricting the GE, and that's fair. Some people gave very good reasons. What needs to happen then is more incentives to encourage trade outside of the GE, because a single, unilateral trading system gives way too much power to manipulators. As someone mentioned earlier, price manipulation has always occurred to some degree in the game, but never on this scale before. I want a system that brings a little more balance to the game's economy, and if that means that some people will have to actually "earn" their money like you want me to "gather" my own roots, then so be it.

 

 

 

I'll think more about it tomorrow. Thank you for the comments and suggestions.

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@1. I'm wondering when actually wanting to play the game turned into a luxury, and price manipulation turned into a necessity. Merchants may have a right to play the game, but unfortunately you don't get to do it at my expense, because I have a right to play, too. Hmm....maybe I should "get off my lazy, spoiled backside and gather" my own resources so you can waddle over to your computer and corner the market. You're right! I should work harder, so you can do less! /sarcasm

 

 

 

 

Your gathering of roots has nothing to do with me. If you want roots for yourself and the GE price is too high, go get your own. There is no monopoly on roots - just a perceived monopoly on harvested roots.

 

 

 

If you gather your own roots and keep them, then you don't have to worry about anyone cornering the market. Price swings will not effect you, because you have learned to gather your own raw materials. There cannot be buyers if there are no sellers. Merchants buy on the GE solely because people are willing to sell. If there were no sellers, merchants could not "corner the market."

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What I've heard is an overwhelming "no" to restricting the GE, and that's fair. Some people gave very good reasons. What needs to happen then is more incentives to encourage trade outside of the GE, because a single, unilateral trading system gives way too much power to manipulators. As someone mentioned earlier, price manipulation has always occurred to some degree in the game, but never on this scale before. I want a system that brings a little more balance to the game's economy, and if that means that some people will have to actually "earn" their money like you want me to "gather" my own roots, then so be it.

 

Merchanting clans won't be handicapped just because some people start trading face-to-face, not any more than a meat company would suffer because one of us decides to go vegan. There would still be thousands upon thousands of GE users to exploit. "Incentives to encourage trade outside the GE" would do nothing to stop the problem.

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[hide=lordkafei]

 

@1. I'm wondering when actually wanting to play the game turned into a luxury, and price manipulation turned into a necessity. Merchants may have a right to play the game, but unfortunately you don't get to do it at my expense, because I have a right to play, too. Hmm....maybe I should "get off my lazy, spoiled backside and gather" my own resources so you can waddle over to your computer and corner the market. You're right! I should work harder, so you can do less! /sarcasm

 

 

 

 

Your gathering of roots has nothing to do with me. If you want roots for yourself and the GE price is too high, go get your own. There is no monopoly on roots - just a perceived monopoly on harvested roots.

 

 

 

If you gather your own roots and keep them, then you don't have to worry about anyone cornering the market. Price swings will not effect you, because you have learned to gather your own raw materials. There cannot be buyers if there are no sellers. Merchants buy on the GE solely because people are willing to sell. If there were no sellers, merchants could not "corner the market."

[/hide]

 

 

 

Well, there's really nothing I can work with here. It isn't my personal problems I'm worried about. I was just using your own example. If your response is that I should become a completely self reliant player, than that's the solution for all of us, which means eliminating trade altogether. Neither of us would support that. And I refuse to settle for "things are fine just the way it is." I really am trying hard to work with you here. I want to find a way to balance the trade system without killing the economy.

 

 

 

[hide=troacctid]

What I've heard is an overwhelming "no" to restricting the GE, and that's fair. Some people gave very good reasons. What needs to happen then is more incentives to encourage trade outside of the GE, because a single, unilateral trading system gives way too much power to manipulators. As someone mentioned earlier, price manipulation has always occurred to some degree in the game, but never on this scale before. I want a system that brings a little more balance to the game's economy, and if that means that some people will have to actually "earn" their money like you want me to "gather" my own roots, then so be it.

 

Merchanting clans won't be handicapped just because some people start trading face-to-face, not any more than a meat company would suffer because one of us decides to go vegan. There would still be thousands upon thousands of GE users to exploit. "Incentives to encourage trade outside the GE" would do nothing to stop the problem.

[/hide]

 

 

 

To quote myself:

 

 

 

If 99% of all trades occur on the GE, then it concentrates all goods for sale into one location. If you manage to manipulate the GE, you manage to manipulate virtually all trading in the game. A price manipulator can funnel all sales of their target item directly to them with complete anonymity, and move the price at their will. Looking at this from another angle, every time you choose to use the GE, you are paying an invisible tax directly to merchant clans.

 

 

 

If you increase the level of trading outside of the GE, you will lower the impact the GE itself, as well as any price manipulation on the GE, on the economy as a whole. If you want to stop price manipulation, you have to bring in competition. Price manipulation is only a symptom. The real problems are with how the GE was implemented into the game. The strings that came attached to it were way too much.

 

 

 

Will this completely wipe out price manipulation from Runescape? No, but it would at least bring it back down to levels before. That's the goal. Aside from increasing competition, the other solution is more regulations. For some of the posters that have been preaching laissez-faire, I'm trying to find an answer that doesn't involve more control.

 

 

 

We don't have to limit the GE. You gave good reasons not to earlier. I am fully aware of how frustrating trading was before the GE. Back then, I had prices of most items memorized, because they tended to shift very little. Today, prices move daily and I couldn't tell you without looking at a graph. I don't want 10 pages of fighting over the ethics of price manipulation. Neither of us are going to change our beliefs on that subject. I want to work with merchants to find something we can agree on. Both sides refusing to budge isn't the answer.

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Going a tiny bit out of the box, but what about loot shared drops and etc. They would need some sort of loophole that would sell the item in GE on a non GE world. This could cause a glitch or something, idk. Just pointing out a "could be" flaw.

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If you want a fool proof solution then ban these mass merchenters (clans), I'm sure Jagex could come up with some software that would detect them and flag them for review and a ban.

 

 

 

About limiting the GE, as previous people have stated, the old way of finding your own buyers/sellers was very slow and annoying, and I for one would consider leaving this game if I couldn't buy/sell items as freely as I could now. Before the GE I was a much more self sufficient player just because I couldn't face wasting time buying natures or bowstrings etc.

 

 

 

I'm sure if Jagex believe this to be as big a problem as you do, then they will probably be paying game designers lots of money to create a way of changing the system to be fairer for the everday player.

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master_smither . why are you so anxious to get certain players banned? They are obviously not doing anything illegal. (I see you have now turncoated to not calling it illegal, but "wrong", thats a step in the right direction).

 

 

 

These people are playing the game in a more creative way than most. And although they might be stunting the game for some , what other "good" reason do you have to ban these said people? Other than the idea that people will get "scared and stop".

 

That's ludicrous. We aren't all 12 year olds and most of us are capable of free-thinking, meaning that if people want to continue they will continue, banning or not. Do people still try to macro? Do people still try to scam? Do people still try to steal other peoples accounts? Do people try hundreds of ways every day to abuse a flaw in the game system?

 

 

 

If you don't know these answers I'll help you and say yes, yes, yes and yes. Are they all bannable offences? Yes.

 

 

 

I know people richer than some of these merchant clan leaders, and they used their own skills to get their fortunes, combined with the luck of having played early in the game when certain items were dropped. Meaning that if they were to sell just 10-20 of certain items, they could, and would, outmatch any merchant clan leader, enabling them to corner the market however they seem fit. These people have every right to do so and I suppose you want these people banned as well, for the childish reason of "ruining the game for others", an arguement that is so used and abused in this debate, that it cannot be taken seriously anymore. People use this arguement to for their own selfish needs, as they in reality couldn't give a flying fluck about other people, but care about their own fortune, and we all know thats the truth 9 out of 10 times.

 

Well those "others" need to get off their rear and find another method of enjoyment and stop being so narrowsighted.

 

 

 

So its now seemingly boiling down to the general consensus being, that a group of people should be banned if they are making a larger group of people not enjoy the game. According to your logic and the logic of several others. So what else does this include? Clan pking? Shouldn't the leaders also be banned, since they also are leading a large group of people to greatness, and at the same time stepping on other people to get there? :roll:

 

 

 

At least find some stronger arguements that might actually lead to something constructive. Because all these lame arguements for why clan merchants are such monsters are starting to piss me and alot of other people off. Sounds more like a bunch of spoiled teenagers who had their favourite toy broken, than people who want to solve this problem in a method where both sides feel their wishes have been met.(I guess thats too much to ask from a bunch of kids, but please feel free to prove me wrong!) But I guess thats a little too much to ask, from people who seemingly have so much hatred for another group of people, they they only see things from a hate-perspective. Which is one word - pathetic.

 

 

 

 

 

On a side note. (I can't believe I'm saying this again). Please abstain from drawing parallels from real life events to Runescape. The only point you make clear when doing this is, that you fail to see that there is a difference between a virtual world, and the real world.

 

 

 

There are millions of factors that play into the real world market, and the real world market is also not controlled by fascists (Jagex). The simple fact that Runescape market is a controlled market in the first place differentiates the two markets on such a large scale that the RS economy might as well be on the planet Pluto.

 

 

 

I know this post contains alot of negativity towards some and for that I truly apologize, but please try to see this as a wake-up call, not just to those people but to all of us.

 

My closing words will be these;

 

Instead of bickering, arguing, pointing fingers and witch-hunting, let us come together as a gaming community is capable of, and raise the bar to a higher standard, that being striving towards a common goal. A common goal being to improve the gameplay by contributing with positive input and not seeing the opposing part as your enemy, but your friend, albeit a wayward friend, but still a friend. One who you wish to help by constructive criticism, and not by being a loud-mouthed baby (babies cry when they want something, I've seen alot of crying here). Because face it.

 

Those players aren't going to just magically disappear.

 

They will also still be around, just like you, and who knows what potential positive input these players are capable of?

 

They've already proven themselves capable of thinking outside the box, something which should be rewarded, not criticized.

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master_smither . why are you so anxious to get certain players banned? They are obviously not doing anything illegal. (I see you have now turncoated to not calling it illegal, but "wrong", thats a step in the right direction).

 

 

 

These people are playing the game in a more creative way than most. And although they might be stunting the game for some , what other "good" reason do you have to ban these said people? Other than the idea that people will get "scared and stop".

 

That's ludicrous. We aren't all 12 year olds and most of us are capable of free-thinking, meaning that if people want to continue they will continue, banning or not. Do people still try to macro? Do people still try to scam? Do people still try to steal other peoples accounts? Do people try hundreds of ways every day to abuse a flaw in the game system?

 

 

 

If you don't know these answers I'll help you and say yes, yes, yes and yes. Are they all bannable offences? Yes.

 

 

 

And banning those rule-brealers helps ;)

 

 

 

I know people richer than some of these merchant clan leaders, and they used their own skills to get their fortunes, combined with the luck of having played early in the game when certain items were dropped. Meaning that if they were to sell just 10-20 of certain items, they could, and would, outmatch any merchant clan leader, enabling them to corner the market however they seem fit. These people have every right to do so and I suppose you want these people banned as well, for the childish reason of "ruining the game for others", an arguement that is so used and abused in this debate, that it cannot be taken seriously anymore.

 

Aren't those people manipulating then :?

 

People use this arguement to for their own selfish needs, as they in reality couldn't give a flying fluck about other people, but care about their own fortune, and we all know thats the truth 9 out of 10 times.

 

Well those "others" need to get off their rear and find another method of enjoyment and stop being so narrowsighted.

 

How is it narrow-sighted to ban price manipulators. In real life people go to jail for it.

 

 

 

So its now seemingly boiling down to the general consensus being, that a group of people should be banned if they are making a larger group of people not enjoy the game.

 

Who ever said that?

 

 

 

According to your logic and the logic of several others. So what else does this include? Clan pking? Shouldn't the leaders also be banned, since they also are leading a large group of people to greatness, and at the same time stepping on other people to get there? :roll:

 

It is your own choice to pk. You cannot compare trading and pking.

 

 

 

At least find some stronger arguements that might actually lead to something constructive. Because all these lame arguements for why clan merchants are such monsters are starting to piss me and alot of other people off.

 

Please get some decent arguments yourself. -.-

 

 

 

Sounds more like a bunch of spoiled teenagers who had their favourite toy broken, than people who want to solve this problem in a method where both sides feel their wishes have been met.But I guess thats a little too much to ask, from people who seemingly have so much hatred for another group of people, they they only see things from a hate-perspective. Which is one word - pathetic.

 

I don't like it when they break my game.

 

 

 

(I guess thats too much to ask from a bunch of kids, but please feel free to prove me wrong!)

 

No personal attacks please. Stay to the debating.

 

 

 

On a side note. (I can't believe I'm saying this again). Please abstain from drawing parallels from real life events to Runescape. The only point you make clear when doing this is, that you fail to see that there is a difference between a virtual world, and the real world.

 

Price manipulation has exactly the same effects both on and offline. Loads of people have to pay more so a few rich guys get richer.

 

 

 

There are millions of factors that play into the real world market, and the real world market is also not controlled by fascists (Jagex). The simple fact that Runescape market is a controlled market in the first place differentiates the two markets on such a large scale that the RS economy might as well be on the planet Pluto.

 

The real world market is not controlled? That's new for me.

 

Oh and you conveniently didn't explain why Jagex are fascists, please do explain it though.

 

 

 

I know this post contains alot of negativity towards some and for that I truly apologize, but please try to see this as a wake-up call, not just to those people but to all of us.

 

My closing words will be these;

 

Instead of bickering, arguing, pointing fingers and witch-hunting, let us come together as a gaming community is capable of, and raise the bar to a higher standard, that being striving towards a common goal. A common goal being to improve the gameplay by contributing with positive input and not seeing the opposing part as your enemy, but your friend, albeit a wayward friend, but still a friend. One who you wish to help by constructive criticism, and not by being a [puncture]. Because face it.

 

Those players aren't going to just magically disappear.

 

They will also still be around, just like you, and who knows what potential positive input these players are capable of?

 

They've already proven themselves capable of thinking outside the box, something which should be rewarded, not criticized.

 

You've not said much constructive words.

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Try the "hide" option next time.

 

 

 

I'll respond in the same order as you have responded.

 

1) You are missing the point. First off the offence is not bannable and if it was, people would still do it until the root of the problem is solved. That was my point.

 

 

 

2) No they aren't manipulating. They are merchanting with the means granted to them by the game. Get your facts straight.

 

 

 

3) Read #1.

 

 

 

4) The general consensus did. Are you not reading?

 

 

 

5) I'm not comparing trading to pking. I'm comparing the ideology both are based on, that ideology being that a group of people coming together will always be better than a single person. (Why do I even bother responding :roll: )

 

 

 

6) No comment, other than at least I have a standpoint. What's yours? Other than being a suck-up.

 

 

 

7) It's not your game just because mommy and daddy pay $5 a month, remember that.

 

 

 

8) How personal am I getting when I write "a bunch of kids"?

 

 

 

9) Cornering the market is a sleazy affair in real life, and yes you go to prison. However please state where you go to prison in Jagex rules, also please document where people have to do anything by force on Runescape. No one is forcing you to buy, but in real life there are certain necessities such as food, and you have to pay the price, or steal it and become a criminal yourself. Its also common knowledge that people who manipulate prices of non-vital commodities in real life take advantage of the greedy consumer. So you can blaim the people who buy the product as well.

 

 

 

10) I bet alot of things are new to you. But please learn to read full sentences. I wrote "the real world market is also not controlled by fascists ". You broke it down only as an illiterate is capable of doing, that being not reading the full sentence therefore understanding it wrong.

 

 

 

11) Fascism is when a place, in this instance, Runescape, is controlled by a single party. That party being Jagex. I'm not here to tutor you though. I'd also love to go further into Fascism, but this post was meant to appeal to people like you, so I feel no need to dumb it down for one person.

 

 

 

12) Your last comment underlines the fact that you more than likely are illiterate, or just "slow". Please learn, that there is, for example, a difference between calling someone an idiot without a reason. And calling someone an idiot, stating the reason, and than continuing to suggest how to solve the problem. In fact that is the whole essence of constructive criticism. Saying things bluntly but also following up with something constructive.

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[hide=FooK-A-Ji]

master_smither . why are you so anxious to get certain players banned? They are obviously not doing anything illegal. (I see you have now turncoated to not calling it illegal, but "wrong", thats a step in the right direction).

 

 

 

These people are playing the game in a more creative way than most. And although they might be stunting the game for some , what other "good" reason do you have to ban these said people? Other than the idea that people will get "scared and stop".

 

That's ludicrous. We aren't all 12 year olds and most of us are capable of free-thinking, meaning that if people want to continue they will continue, banning or not. Do people still try to macro? Do people still try to scam? Do people still try to steal other peoples accounts? Do people try hundreds of ways every day to abuse a flaw in the game system?

 

 

 

If you don't know these answers I'll help you and say yes, yes, yes and yes. Are they all bannable offences? Yes.

 

 

 

I know people richer than some of these merchant clan leaders, and they used their own skills to get their fortunes, combined with the luck of having played early in the game when certain items were dropped. Meaning that if they were to sell just 10-20 of certain items, they could, and would, outmatch any merchant clan leader, enabling them to corner the market however they seem fit. These people have every right to do so and I suppose you want these people banned as well, for the childish reason of "ruining the game for others", an arguement that is so used and abused in this debate, that it cannot be taken seriously anymore. People use this arguement to for their own selfish needs, as they in reality couldn't give a flying fluck about other people, but care about their own fortune, and we all know thats the truth 9 out of 10 times.

 

Well those "others" need to get off their rear and find another method of enjoyment and stop being so narrowsighted.

 

 

 

So its now seemingly boiling down to the general consensus being, that a group of people should be banned if they are making a larger group of people not enjoy the game. According to your logic and the logic of several others. So what else does this include? Clan pking? Shouldn't the leaders also be banned, since they also are leading a large group of people to greatness, and at the same time stepping on other people to get there? :roll:

 

 

 

At least find some stronger arguements that might actually lead to something constructive. Because all these lame arguements for why clan merchants are such monsters are starting to piss me and alot of other people off. Sounds more like a bunch of spoiled teenagers who had their favourite toy broken, than people who want to solve this problem in a method where both sides feel their wishes have been met.(I guess thats too much to ask from a bunch of kids, but please feel free to prove me wrong!) But I guess thats a little too much to ask, from people who seemingly have so much hatred for another group of people, they they only see things from a hate-perspective. Which is one word - pathetic.

 

 

 

 

 

On a side note. (I can't believe I'm saying this again). Please abstain from drawing parallels from real life events to Runescape. The only point you make clear when doing this is, that you fail to see that there is a difference between a virtual world, and the real world.

 

 

 

There are millions of factors that play into the real world market, and the real world market is also not controlled by fascists (Jagex). The simple fact that Runescape market is a controlled market in the first place differentiates the two markets on such a large scale that the RS economy might as well be on the planet Pluto.

 

 

 

I know this post contains alot of negativity towards some and for that I truly apologize, but please try to see this as a wake-up call, not just to those people but to all of us.

 

My closing words will be these;

 

Instead of bickering, arguing, pointing fingers and witch-hunting, let us come together as a gaming community is capable of, and raise the bar to a higher standard, that being striving towards a common goal. A common goal being to improve the gameplay by contributing with positive input and not seeing the opposing part as your enemy, but your friend, albeit a wayward friend, but still a friend. One who you wish to help by constructive criticism, and not by being a loud-mouthed baby (babies cry when they want something, I've seen alot of crying here). Because face it.

 

Those players aren't going to just magically disappear.

 

They will also still be around, just like you, and who knows what potential positive input these players are capable of?

 

They've already proven themselves capable of thinking outside the box, something which should be rewarded, not criticized.

[/hide]

 

 

 

FooK, I know your post was targeted at a single player, but there are also a lot of generalizations being made. We are probably on opposite sides of this argument, but I can agree with a lot of your post. I can only speak for myself, but I am not looking to ban anybody from the game right now. Mainly, because threatening players with bans will be as effective as it was against macros, just as you pointed. It's a finger-in-the-dike solution, and it's only reactive instead of fixing anything. I know you said you hate real-world terminology thrown around, but another reason I'm not wanting bans is ex post facto. We can both agree that Jagex's policy is unclear on this situation, and the best thing that could happen first is to clear the fog and issue an official policy. No matter what side Jagex happens to fall, it would do a lot of good.

 

 

 

We can debate ethics all we want on the subject, but to be blunt the players who are opposed to price manipulation aren't going anywhere. If this animosity from both sides continue, then if and when Jagex ever does decide to do something, you'll see no sympathy from the other side. You mention that both sides should work together to meet each other's wishes, and that is what I really want to do. I don't want stricter price caps. I would like to preserve what little freedom we have left in the economy while finding a way to fix the vulnerabilities in the GE.

 

 

 

I won't stop making real world comparisons. I don't care if you find me delusional or pathetic, or whatever point you were making with that statement. Truth is, whenever I hear talk about stricter price caps I hear the other side screaming, "No, that's socialism! Laissez-faire! Laissez-faire!" Both sides have been making real world comparisons.

 

 

 

There are markets controlled by fascists. The United States doesn't have a purely free enterprise market either. There are regulations within it. Different economic attitudes and models have been debated to which is better for centuries. I doubt we'll be able to solve those problems on a game forum, but it's only Tuesday, so you never know. ;)

 

 

 

let us come together as a gaming community is capable of, and raise the bar to a higher standard, that being striving towards a common goal.

 

 

 

I am ashamed to say that I haven't been above the fighting, but I am trying to find some new answers that we can all agree on. I haven't found them yet, but hey, I came up with something that everybody hated, so at least we're in the right direction. :D

 

 

 

I'm a gambler, not an economist. I want to attract someone with better ideas to help out. Are you willing to help?

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idk if this has been written yet as i dont have the time to scrutinize every single post, but wouldnt eliminating set prices eliminate manipulation? also, they could just have (m)SRP for all items so sellers and buyers have a sort of guideline on how to sell an item, but you dont have to follow those rules? like if someone really wanted 5 prayer pots really bad, they are free to pay 10k for each if they like, rather than pay the SRP of ~6k (i believe).

 

 

 

and the GE can still be here, just no price caps. of course expensive items (1m+) could be set to not be allowed to be sold for an insanely low amount (maybe just keep bottom caps for them) to make it so RWT cannot do their nefarious exchanges

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Thats an incredibly well thought out solution, not to mention an enjoyable read ::'

 

I've always been anti-merchanting clans, and its easy to see that this is the best solution thats come out of all the talk about how to stop them. I completely agree the best way would be more player-player trading

 

 

 

Well Done Jp :thumbup:

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I might as well put this here a single person buying out an item is the rich buyers method or something which is fair since they have the cash to do it and can be risky if they don't buy out enough of the market.

 

 

 

Merchanting clans are bad because they use large amounts of players to buy out an object which can go up well over billions of gp then two possible things can happen the leader other merchants sell early causing the prices to go down resulting in item scam or everything the merchants dream of happens and they drain the economy of gp and causing an item to crash.

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An idea to encourage face to face trading, instead of limiting the GE to certain worlds, would be to tax commonly traded items traded through the GE. If you do not want to pay tax, you would trade face to face; this would also force the manipulators out of anonymity and once again allow players to choose with whom they sell.

 

 

 

This is just a thought that I did not spend much time thinking about, so I do not have any specific numbers so feel free to use and expand this idea.

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Honestly, I'd rather pay "the tax" (as you call it) and continue making money through Buyout Clans.

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