It doesn't apply to me :) My state (Virginia) made it illegal for the Federal gov't to force this onto anyone in here. PRO.

Hey guess what? Federal surpemacy. Eat that.

 

Guess what? Republicans. Eat that. It was signed into a compromise that should a state be against the policy it has every right to not have it instituted in that state.

Also, to all you who can't seem to grasp the US not having universal health care to begin with, go back to your history class. The United States was founded by FEAR of big governments. That is the reason for that whole revolution thing they had. Remember that? The founding fathers wanted as little government interference as possible into the daily lives of the people. So to have one giant government run health care program, it kinda goes against the foundation for the beliefs of the US.

Also, to all you who can't seem to grasp the US not having universal health care to begin with, go back to your history class. The United States was founded by FEAR of big governments. That is the reason for that whole revolution thing they had. Remember that? The founding fathers wanted as little government interference as possible into the daily lives of the people. So to have one giant government run health care program, it kinda goes against the foundation for the beliefs of the US.

 

Ehhh I am not so sure on this one, I do not remember that the founding fathers rebelled because of big government, I thought it was the whole "no taxation without representation" thing. I doubt all of them want small government to be honest, I know TJ is the guy for "the best government is the government which govern the least", but then we also have Alexander Hamilton who favor government control.

The problem with states' rights is that theoretically the states have a right to make a law against federal law, but it has a problem on three parts:

1. They (states) don't often have the resources to enforce such a restriction.

2. The federal government can enforce penalties on those states which do not follow their laws. (i.e., the feds won't give them as much money for other stuff)

And, finally,

3. That's what the civil war was fought over, whether federal law could override state law. Guess what? The Union (aka the national government) won.

 

EDIT: At above post and quote: Indeed, the nation was not founded on fear of big government, there were always splits in the view of so-called "big government," shown by the opposing political parties, the Federalists and the Republicans (of no direct relation to the current party, though they do share a few beliefs). These parties were, in fact, started by the two men mentioned above, Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson, respectively.

How are you guys going to afford it?

 

Cut military budget

 

But it seems like most Americans would rather see their taxes spent in wars than to help their own countrymen

 

go USA!

Also, to all you who can't seem to grasp the US not having universal health care to begin with, go back to your history class. The United States was founded by FEAR of big governments. That is the reason for that whole revolution thing they had. Remember that? The founding fathers wanted as little government interference as possible into the daily lives of the people. So to have one giant government run health care program, it kinda goes against the foundation for the beliefs of the US.

 

Ehhh I am not so sure on this one, I do not remember that the founding fathers rebelled because of big government, I thought it was the whole "no taxation without representation" thing. I doubt all of them want small government to be honest, I know TJ is the guy for "the best government is the government which govern the least", but then we also have Alexander Hamilton who favor government control.

 

 

I think its more of a:

 

They disliked tax w\o reppin, but that was only a problem because the gov't was so big. I'm not too sure either :P I do know they did not like big gov't, or entangling alliances with other countries.

Also, to all you who can't seem to grasp the US not having universal health care to begin with, go back to your history class. The United States was founded by FEAR of big governments. That is the reason for that whole revolution thing they had. Remember that? The founding fathers wanted as little government interference as possible into the daily lives of the people. So to have one giant government run health care program, it kinda goes against the foundation for the beliefs of the US.

 

Ehhh I am not so sure on this one, I do not remember that the founding fathers rebelled because of big government, I thought it was the whole "no taxation without representation" thing. I doubt all of them want small government to be honest, I know TJ is the guy for "the best government is the government which govern the least", but then we also have Alexander Hamilton who favor government control.

 

 

I think its more of a:

 

They disliked tax w\o reppin, but that was only a problem because the gov't was so big. I'm not too sure either :P I do know they did not like big gov't, or entangling alliances with other countries.

It wasn't so much as taxes but the representation. England had their own place in Parliament, so did Scotland and Wales and Ireland. Colonies didn't had seats in Parliament. Great Britain was centralized, meaning, government was held at one central point: London. As the empire grew, the King and nobles still kept the center of government near London and didn't give outer territories imperial government power.

 

Americans were pissed because they were a BIG part of the Empire: highly populated, huge economic asset, and they weren't a bunch of coloured peoples on an island. They thought they deserved a place in Parliament like the other 'kingdoms'. If you had a place in Parliament you could, to some extent, control taxes which is where the "No Taxation without Representation" comes from. It's not simply a "tax" issue, but a political representation issue. The USA has individual states to insure decentralization to one place, so political power is across the entire country.

 

Big government is just another name people use for a centralized government.

How are you guys going to afford it?

 

Cut military budget

 

But it seems like most Americans would rather see their taxes spent in wars than to help their own countrymen

 

go USA!

Damn straight I do. It is not my job to make everyone else's life better. Why does everyone want to cut the military budget? Thats like saying.... hmm we don't have enough band-aids so lets take out a section of wall....

 

When all else fails ill stick to my guns and not my government, they have been proven to work.

How are you guys going to afford it?

 

Cut military budget

 

But it seems like most Americans would rather see their taxes spent in wars than to help their own countrymen

 

go USA!

Damn straight I do. It is not my job to make everyone else's life better. Why does everyone want to cut the military budget? Thats like saying.... hmm we don't have enough band-aids so lets take out a section of wall....

 

Dunno about you, but I would rather spend my money for my benefit than spending on other people's benefit.

Also, to all you who can't seem to grasp the US not having universal health care to begin with, go back to your history class. The United States was founded by FEAR of big governments. That is the reason for that whole revolution thing they had. Remember that? The founding fathers wanted as little government interference as possible into the daily lives of the people. So to have one giant government run health care program, it kinda goes against the foundation for the beliefs of the US.

 

Ehhh I am not so sure on this one, I do not remember that the founding fathers rebelled because of big government, I thought it was the whole "no taxation without representation" thing. I doubt all of them want small government to be honest, I know TJ is the guy for "the best government is the government which govern the least", but then we also have Alexander Hamilton who favor government control.

 

They rebelled because the American Colonies were used to governing themselves, but Parliament insisted on interfering by placing taxes that the Colonial governments did not ratify. Because the colonies weren't granted Home Rule, they rebelled in order to form their own Empire.

 

I'm only stating what you find in history books. There were very likely other reasons why they wanted to secede from England. (The Proclamation of 1763 barred the colonists from expanding West, and there were very likely people that wanted to profit off of expanding into Native territory.)

Damn straight I do. It is not my job to make everyone else's life better. Why does everyone want to cut the military budget? Thats like saying.... hmm we don't have enough band-aids so lets take out a section of wall....

 

When all else fails ill stick to my guns and not my government, they have been proven to work.

 

We want to cut the military budget because there is absolutely no reason we should spend that much on the military. We could cut the military spending in half and still spend twice as much as any other country.

 

I have never understood how people who claim to be for smaller government are against cutting the military.

Damn straight I do. It is not my job to make everyone else's life better. Why does everyone want to cut the military budget? Thats like saying.... hmm we don't have enough band-aids so lets take out a section of wall....

 

When all else fails ill stick to my guns and not my government, they have been proven to work.

 

We want to cut the military budget because there is absolutely no reason we should spend that much on the military. We could cut the military spending in half and still spend twice as much as any other country.

 

I have never understood how people who claim to be for smaller government are against cutting the military.

Because I believe the military IS one of the things the government should handle. So it's just doing their job.

Damn straight I do. It is not my job to make everyone else's life better. Why does everyone want to cut the military budget? Thats like saying.... hmm we don't have enough band-aids so lets take out a section of wall....

 

When all else fails ill stick to my guns and not my government, they have been proven to work.

 

We want to cut the military budget because there is absolutely no reason we should spend that much on the military. We could cut the military spending in half and still spend twice as much as any other country.

 

I have never understood how people who claim to be for smaller government are against cutting the military.

Because I believe the military IS one of the things the government should handle. So it's just doing their job.

Er, we're not talking about abolishing the military nor giving it to another agency. But spending billions of dollars ON TESTING AND RESEARCHING THE STUPIDEST [cabbage] is what we're against for.

Damn straight I do. It is not my job to make everyone else's life better. Why does everyone want to cut the military budget? Thats like saying.... hmm we don't have enough band-aids so lets take out a section of wall....

 

When all else fails ill stick to my guns and not my government, they have been proven to work.

 

We want to cut the military budget because there is absolutely no reason we should spend that much on the military. We could cut the military spending in half and still spend twice as much as any other country.

 

I have never understood how people who claim to be for smaller government are against cutting the military.

Because I believe the military IS one of the things the government should handle. So it's just doing their job.

Er, we're not talking about abolishing the military nor giving it to another agency. But spending billions of dollars ON TESTING AND RESEARCHING THE STUPIDEST [cabbage] is what we're against for.

 

While I know that the government tests and researches stupid junk what specifically militarily do you mean.

Dunno about you, but I would rather spend my money for my benefit than spending on other people's benefit.

Say that when you start paying taxes.

 

I don't take anyone's opinion on this issue as meaning anything more than a pile of [cabbage] if they don't pay taxes. You don't pay taxes, you aren't part of the system. And if you aren't part of the system you don't understand the concept of cost. Things may be prettier tomorrow, but that's just because the costs aren't tangible to you.

 

Apart from a meager couple grand I've made, I don't pay taxes since I don't have a full-time job. And I sure as hell don't make enough to get shafted by this bill.

I'm in a [cabbage] money tier for this bill. Last year I made $14,000, which puts me above the $9,000 cut off for not having to have insurance. Which means I either have to get insurance which is still going to be way too much (thanks for dropping the public option guys) or I have to pay a 2.5% tax on the difference which means I will have to pay $125 more in taxes when this goes into effect (14k-9k=5k; 5k*.025=$125).

Dunno about you, but I would rather spend my money for my benefit than spending on other people's benefit.

Say that when you start paying taxes.

 

I don't take anyone's opinion on this issue as meaning anything more than a pile of [cabbage] if they don't pay taxes. You don't pay taxes, you aren't part of the system. And if you aren't part of the system you don't understand the concept of cost. Things may be prettier tomorrow, but that's just because the costs aren't tangible to you.

 

Apart from a meager couple grand I've made, I don't pay taxes since I don't have a full-time job. And I sure as hell don't make enough to get shafted by this bill.

 

Hmm? I am not talking about taxes in this one, I am talking about how US should pull their behind out of the middle east and focus more on the economy. Focus more themselves before trying to help out others.

Dunno about you, but I would rather spend my money for my benefit than spending on other people's benefit.

Say that when you start paying taxes.

 

I don't take anyone's opinion on this issue as meaning anything more than a pile of [cabbage] if they don't pay taxes. You don't pay taxes, you aren't part of the system. And if you aren't part of the system you don't understand the concept of cost. Things may be prettier tomorrow, but that's just because the costs aren't tangible to you.

 

Apart from a meager couple grand I've made, I don't pay taxes since I don't have a full-time job. And I sure as hell don't make enough to get shafted by this bill.

 

Hmm? I am not talking about taxes in this one, I am talking about how US should pull their behind out of the middle east and focus more on the economy. Focus more themselves before trying to help out others.

 

Which every western country should do, but doesn't. (the focus on themselves before others part)

First of all, Nancy Pelosi should have been removed when it was found out she was using the Air Force as her personal chauffeur.

 

But on-topic, socialized health care is the worst idea ever. Before something so unsustainable as this is introduced, things like stop funding belligerent countries, cutting military expenditure, withdrawing from other countries and granting visas to immigrants who work in the US which would require them to pay taxes would help increase the wealth of the US citizen. We wouldn't need such a large military if we didn't feel the need to invade another country every 10years to install a puppet government. I'm also sure that if agencies to crack down on corruption were implemented more properly, it would actually increase money usable in a budget even if it cost money to run these agencies. If the government did all the things I've listed, there would be enough money to sustain social security, end hunger in the US and employ the jobless on civil projects.

 

Now my father who is a doctor will make less, be taxed more and those who actually work will be penalized for working and making money. The only people I would have helped if I signed a bill to help people in need of health insurance is children under the age of 16 who have no one they can depend upon, which wouldn't make much of a difference as doctors help young people brought to the ER without asking questions.

 

And a lot of people who support this bill are foolish because they believe it will help them. The only people it will help are those who are struggling to even cling onto a meager salary (and I use meager generously). By creating more and more of this nonessential social institutions, we drain our money that could be used towards more essential things and we kill incentive to actually work for oneself. Instead of spending the high hundreds of billions of dollars in health care, imagine if Obama did a CWA like FDR. I'm no fan of FDR, but I say CWA would be a much much much much better option.

The unfortunate of all this extra taxes and government programs, it always hurts the progresser. Having not enough money to support these things but having enough to break out of the exempt list. A pity.

It funny to me how some people are all for protecting our country (military), but are against socialized healthcare because when the point of the of bill is to 'protect' the actual health/ wellbeing of people of our country, which I believe is most important.

 

The NY Times has a neat guide-like article about how the new bill will affect us.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html

Can't the argument be made that the military "makes our lives better" us by "protecting" us? So should we still fund that or what?

 

Also, Congress does have the power "to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" doesn't it?

Dunno about you, but I would rather spend my money for my benefit than spending on other people's benefit.

Say that when you start paying taxes.

 

I don't take anyone's opinion on this issue as meaning anything more than a pile of [cabbage] if they don't pay taxes. You don't pay taxes, you aren't part of the system. And if you aren't part of the system you don't understand the concept of cost. Things may be prettier tomorrow, but that's just because the costs aren't tangible to you.

 

Apart from a meager couple grand I've made, I don't pay taxes since I don't have a full-time job. And I sure as hell don't make enough to get shafted by this bill.

 

Hmm? I am not talking about taxes in this one, I am talking about how US should pull their behind out of the middle east and focus more on the economy. Focus more themselves before trying to help out others.

 

 

Obamas going to do that soon, he has to. He promised us he would...

 

:|

 

 

I made $13,000 last year, with about $1,100 taken in out with taxes, medicare, SS etc. I should be getting my tax return shortly as soon as my mom's bookie comes by with it.

The problem with states' rights is that theoretically the states have a right to make a law against federal law, but it has a problem on three parts:

1. They (states) don't often have the resources to enforce such a restriction.

2. The federal government can enforce penalties on those states which do not follow their laws. (i.e., the feds won't give them as much money for other stuff)

And, finally,

3. That's what the civil war was fought over, whether federal law could override state law. Guess what? The Union (aka the national government) won.

 

 

The Union won because Lincoln shredded the Constitution and because the south was less developed (ie less railroads).

 

 

I hope the bill gets banned by more states, as it does violate our tenth amendment. Hopefully the Supreme Court will look into it, though I doubt that would happen.

Can't the argument be made that the military "makes our lives better" us by "protecting" us? So should we still fund that or what?

Obviously we should still fund our military, the point some posters were making was that the money we spend on the military is waaaay more than necessary, and should be reduced.

 

I support this bill, I suppose. But it really doesn't affect me personally at all, except for the part about being under parents insurance until I'm 26. So woo. :thumbup: