1st October, 2010: Behind the Scenes - October

[Bladewing]

I don't care about your view as long as you actually portray it in a constructive way like everybody else.

 

and i stopped caring about your view when you threatened to get me banned for disagreeing with you LOL

 

edit: on paragraphing:

 

it is much easier to read points when they are in bulleted form. snooty english professors decided that if my point doesn't take up 4-6 sentences then it cannot be made.

 

simplicity is divne, and i am trying to make it easier for people to see my points. if i thought it would add something, i could "flesh out" my points with useless fluff to make myself sound more intellectual (like you do), but i prefer to let my points speak for themselves.

 

edit 2: how is saying "i want to have content that utilizes my levels" not constructive? seems to me like you have a grudge going or something.

[Danqazmlp]

If you feel I have threatened to ban you, you are free to PM me or any other moderator about it. However, this discussion does not belong here. I will leave it with you to decide whether or not you want this community to take you seriously in the future. If you want to be involved in the discussion, please portray your arguments in a way others will actually want to respond to.

[Bladewing]

your view on what deserves response is obviously not representative of every other member's

 

back off kindly, sir

[Danqazmlp]

Before I got distracted, As I explained after Obtaurian's post, just because the game could currently be heading towards more grind oriented quest requirements, does not mean it has to. In a perfect game world for me, I would have enough content available at all levels to make grind redundant. I would not need to grind a single level as I would be rewarded through quests, mini-games, boss hunting, distractions etc all the experience to have an endless amount of things to do. This is a perfect world and would probably never happen, but it doesn't stop them from being suggested. If we all accept the current route of the game it will never change, but if every player were to want a certain direction, there would be a chance of change.

[Bladewing]

so you are essentially saying that, because my view is different than yours, it is not constructive?

 

edit: also, retired players don't do quests, so it doesn't really matter to you. let the 12 year old nerd no lifers who actually play the game make the decisions.

[Sir_Kurity]

1. There's a direct correlation between the requirements of a quest and how "difficult" it is

 

Correction, theres currently a noticable correlation between requirements of quest and difficulty.

 

Difficult quests can be made without excessive requirements, and it would be the exact same quest, requirements or no.

 

Excessive requirements don't actually add to difficulty of the quest in any way. Though, overcoming the hours of boredom thrown on beforehand may be the issue here. (Grind is not the best way to add difficulty, as i've already discussed).

 

2. The rewards would undoubtedly be amazing for quests with such high requirements and of such difficulty.

 

I see no reason why the rewards can't have high requirements. I.E all fired up.

 

3. It gives people something to work for. Back when I was questing hardcore, I relished leveling my skills because I wanted to complete every quest. Frankly, I'm bored of not having to train to do new quests.

 

And frankly im bored of having to grind to do new quests.

 

If you actually enjoy the skill, you don't need the quest requirement to encourage you to skill, you will do it anyway. If you don't enjoy the skill, then all the requirements are doing is forcing you through something you don't like.

 

This is why this argument is pointless: it will happen regardless of whether or not you want it.

 

I can always hope that jagex doesn't get to this point just to please high levels.

[Obtaurian]

1. There's a direct correlation between the requirements of a quest and how "difficult" it is

 

Correction, theres currently a noticable correlation between requirements of quest and difficulty.

 

Difficult quests can be made without excessive requirements, and it would be the exact same quest, requirements or no.

 

Excessive requirements don't actually add to difficulty of the quest in any way. Though, overcoming the hours of boredom thrown on beforehand may be the issue here. (Grind is not the best way to add difficulty, as i've already discussed).

 

2. The rewards would undoubtedly be amazing for quests with such high requirements and of such difficulty.

 

I see no reason why the rewards can't have high requirements. I.E all fired up.

 

3. It gives people something to work for. Back when I was questing hardcore, I relished leveling my skills because I wanted to complete every quest. Frankly, I'm bored of not having to train to do new quests.

 

And frankly im bored of having to grind to do new quests.

 

If you actually enjoy the skill, you don't need the quest requirement to encourage you to skill, you will do it anyway. If you don't enjoy the skill, then all the requirements are doing is forcing you through something you don't like.

 

This is why this argument is pointless: it will happen regardless of whether or not you want it.

 

I can always hope that jagex doesn't get to this point just to please high levels.

 

You see, our opinions are opposite, so this argument is going nowhere. However, I find it sad that you're so adamantly against releasing content for everyone, and not just low levels. It seems like a very negative and selfish thing to want.

 

Dan, LOL at you for trying to discredit Bladewing because he's concise.

[Danqazmlp]

1. There's a direct correlation between the requirements of a quest and how "difficult" it is

 

Correction, theres currently a noticable correlation between requirements of quest and difficulty.

 

Difficult quests can be made without excessive requirements, and it would be the exact same quest, requirements or no.

 

Excessive requirements don't actually add to difficulty of the quest in any way. Though, overcoming the hours of boredom thrown on beforehand may be the issue here. (Grind is not the best way to add difficulty, as i've already discussed).

 

2. The rewards would undoubtedly be amazing for quests with such high requirements and of such difficulty.

 

I see no reason why the rewards can't have high requirements. I.E all fired up.

 

3. It gives people something to work for. Back when I was questing hardcore, I relished leveling my skills because I wanted to complete every quest. Frankly, I'm bored of not having to train to do new quests.

 

And frankly im bored of having to grind to do new quests.

 

If you actually enjoy the skill, you don't need the quest requirement to encourage you to skill, you will do it anyway. If you don't enjoy the skill, then all the requirements are doing is forcing you through something you don't like.

 

This is why this argument is pointless: it will happen regardless of whether or not you want it.

 

I can always hope that jagex doesn't get to this point just to please high levels.

 

You see, our opinions are opposite, so this argument is going nowhere. However, I find it sad that you're so adamantly against releasing content for everyone, and not just low levels. It seems like a very negative and selfish thing to want.

 

 

You seem to miss the point that EVERYBODY can play quests with low requirements. Low requirements do not mean a quest will be easy. It may have a hard boss requiring combat prowess, it may have hard puzzles requiring a lot of thought. Surely releasing content that everybody can enjoy and take part in is better than content that only a select few can. How you can possibly call that selfish is beyond me. Surely it would be more selfish to want content that only higher levels would be able to play?

 

 

"If you actually enjoy the skill, you don't need the quest requirement to encourage you to skill, you will do it anyway. If you don't enjoy the skill, then all the requirements are doing is forcing you through something you don't like. "

 

I have to admit, the above point is an incredibly good one. That should be a philosophy written on Jagex's wall. The skills you enjoy can aid you in quests, but for those that do not enjoy them, you shouldn't need them totally.

[Obtaurian]

Okay okay, I get it, you think that certain groups of players are entitled to updates, and everyone else should be left in the dust. It seems like you're just arguing for the sake of exclusivity (and some overblown sense of self-importance). Again, I find that to be an incredibly selfish and narrow-minded point of view, but to each his own, I guess.

[Danqazmlp]

I'm sorry, but I'm suggesting the total opposite. With lower requirements, you get content that can be played by more people not less. As I stated in my previous post:

"You seem to miss the point that EVERYBODY can play quests with low requirements."

Lower requirements = more players can access the content.

 

I honestly cannot say it any more simple.

[Obtaurian]

I'm sorry, but I'm suggesting the total opposite. With lower requirements, you get content that can be played by more people not less. As I stated in my previous post:

"You seem to miss the point that EVERYBODY can play quests with low requirements."

Lower requirements = more players can access the content.

 

I honestly cannot say it any more simple.

 

I don't get it. First you say that quest difficulty should be mutually exclusive of requirements, which means that a quest could have low requirements but an obstacle that requires 89 agility, so people who just meet the requirements can't complete the quest. Then you say that anyone can play the content (quest), but obviously that wouldn't be the case.

 

It really sounds like you're just trying to make people mad. If Jagex stated the requirements up front, things like that wouldn't happen, but you seem to want them to happen. :mellow:

[BeNiceOk]

~ 400,000.

 

That is the number of people who currently have the magic level to complete this Grandmaster quest. Jagex knows well enough that quests are designed to be a storytelling challenge, and any rewards unlocked by the quest are simply "extra benefits". Because of this Jagex will ALWAYS make quests so that a large number of players can access them. "Large" is simply a relative term.

 

Keeping "400,000" as the magic number; any skill with 400k ranked users is fair game. Once 400k people have 90+ runecrafting, it might be a high level requirement, but until then I wouldn't bother hoping for it. We, as players of this game, have 0 say on what requirements are required for a quest. Diaries were the result of a cry for quest "elite content". Quests were never about "elite exclusivity", and I highly doubt they would start that trend now.

[stonewall337]

Don't worry, Sir Kurity - when quests with 90+ requirements start popping up in the next couple years, I'm sure there'll be plenty of quest summaries for you to read. :thumbup:

 

Hopefully jagex never releases 90+ quest requirements just so the high levels can feel special. :thumbup:

 

Lol, resorting to the "yer a high level so [bleep] you" argument? I think we can see where this is going. :rolleyes:

So I can feel special? No. So I can have some better gear, or a quest which is actually DIFFICULT? ye. And maybe a good reward, or a boss which is actually semi-exclusive.

 

Gives people something to grind for, similar to skillcapes. If I never saw a slayer skillcape in F2P, I probably wouldn't have started training it in P2P right away. Granted, I also enjoyed it, but you get the picture. I want high level DG rewards because, since I enjoy it, I train DG high. Get it?

 

Part of the reason the QP cape is more undervalued then a number of other capes is it is quite easy to get. One needs a number of quests to unlock content. The QP cape was my first cape, and even with WGS, and low combat, I'd say it was quite easy/fast to get.

 

I don't "need" anything else to feel special. I'm in the top few percentage of RS players for total levels/xp, as well as for gear. So I think I'l go grab my divine, and my capes, and sulk because I don't have a hard quest to make me feel "special"

 

I still don't see why people have this "entitlement" mentality. You don't "deserve" easy quests. You need to EARN.

[Sir_Kurity]

So I can feel special? No. So I can have some better gear, or a quest which is actually DIFFICULT?

 

I'm pretty sure ive been over this. 200 hour grind requirements do not equal difficult quest.

 

Okay okay, I get it, you think that certain groups of players are entitled to updates, and everyone else should be left in the dust.

 

Its funny, because im arguing the exact opposite. Quests should be accessible to the majority without unduely excessive grind.

 

If the only way for you to continue this argument is to interpret my words to somehow mean the opposite of what im actually saying, then i'm afraid this argument isnt going to go anywhere.

[Obtaurian]

So I can feel special? No. So I can have some better gear, or a quest which is actually DIFFICULT?

 

I'm pretty sure ive been over this. 200 hour grind requirements do not equal difficult quest.

 

Okay okay, I get it, you think that certain groups of players are entitled to updates, and everyone else should be left in the dust.

 

Its funny, because im arguing the exact opposite. Quests should be accessible to the majority without unduely excessive grind.

 

Tailoring quests exclusively for low-level players is hardly what I call "the majority". Again, you and Dan seem to be obsessed with exclusivity, and I can't imagine why you'd be so selfish as to demand that Jagex make updates specifically for you and no one else.

[Sir_Kurity]

Tailoring quests exclusively for low-level players is hardly what I call "the majority".

 

I'm pretty sure ive been over this.

 

I'm all for elite content, im not for elite requirements.

 

Corp is for high level players, but it does not have excessive requirements.

 

and I can't imagine why you'd be so selfish as to demand that Jagex make updates specifically for you and no one else.

 

Again, im arguing the exact opposite, i want content that the majority have access to.

 

Your the one being selfish, demanding quests that only extremely high level (insert skill here), players can access.

[Obtaurian]

Tailoring quests exclusively for low-level players is hardly what I call "the majority".

 

I'm pretty sure ive been over this.

 

I'm all for elite content, im not for elite requirements.

 

Corp is for high level players, but it does not have excessive requirements.

 

and I can't imagine why you'd be so selfish as to demand that Jagex make updates specifically for you and no one else.

 

Again, im arguing the exact opposite, i want content that the majority have access to.

 

We have high-level bosses. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing quests, of which there is no high-level content. You say you want content that the majority have access to, but that "majority" is entirely low and mid level players. Again, your argument is based entirely on exclusivity. You just want to feel special, and a high-level quest would hurt your feelings, apparently.

 

Seems selfish to me.

 

Your the one being selfish, demanding quests that only extremely high level (insert skill here), players can access.

 

My only high non-combat skill is herblore. I can't see how I'm being selfish by wanting content to released for everyone and not just low/mid level players, especially when I wouldn't have access to the high level content (unless it required herblore).

[Sir_Kurity]

We're discussing quests, of which there is no high-level content.

 

200 hour grind requirements are not the way to make high level content, high level content should be high level in that its hard, not that it requires an extreme tolerance to boredom.

 

And they most definately do not make the game any more fun. (for low levels or high levels alike).

 

You just want to feel special, and a high-level quest would hurt your feelings, apparently.

 

O.O (Using my arguments against me, i like it, only problem is it makes no sense)

 

You don't feel special because everyone has access to a quest. You have the fun from the quest, and in a game, thats what should matter.

[Obtaurian]

We're discussing quests, of which there is no high-level content.

 

200 hour grind requirements are not the way to make high level content, high level content should be high level in that its hard, not that it requires an extreme tolerance to boredom.

 

And they most definately do not make the game any more fun. (for low levels or high levels alike).

 

You just want to feel special, and a high-level quest would hurt your feelings, apparently.

 

O.O (Using my arguments against me, i like it, only problem is it makes no sense)

 

You don't feel special because everyone has access to a quest. You have the fun from the quest, and in a game, thats what should matter.

 

Okay, let's assume that there's a quest that's supposed to be "high level," but has easily attainable level requirements. What makes the quest high level? Combat would be the only answer, but since when have quests been entirely combat based? Never. A quest cannot be high-level without requiring both high-level combat and non-combat skills to complete certain tasks or obstacles. This game isn't all about combat like you seem to think.

 

Why are you so against releasing content for everyone?

[Bladewing]

how does it hurt players who do not wish to grind 200 hours (which may i remind you is an absurdly arbitrary number that obviously came from your ass) for there to exist a quest or two that have high level requirements?

 

note how those requesting a quest or two with high level requirements are not suggesting that there never be any quests with low requirements. we want there to be content for everyone, while you just want low-requirement content.

[Sir_Kurity]

how does it hurt players who do not wish to grind 200 hours (which may i remind you is an absurdly arbitrary number that obviously came from your ass) for there to exist a quest or two that have high level requirements?

 

97 fishing requires 10 million XP.

 

At 50k XP an hour, which is a reasonable estimate, it takes 200 hours.

 

note how those requesting a quest or two with high level requirements are not suggesting that there never be any quests with low requirements. we want there to be content for everyone, while you just want low-requirement content.

 

I want there to be content for all levels, high and low, but for it NOT to require excessive grind.

 

But lets face it, the most challenging puzzle can have a guide written on it, the most challenging boss fight will either solidify grinding requirements or have a guide written on it (summers end), besides levels theres absolutely nothing a developer can do to make a quest elite, since a guide written within 24 hours still wont make you have the levels you need.

 

I love how you didn't mention reflexes on hard boss fights.

 

Tz-Tok-Jad is a hard piece of content (admittedly, its significantly easier now, but its a few years old so what can you do).

 

There have been multiple guides on how to do the fight caves. But despite this, there are still near maxed players who can't get a firecape for whatever reason, but at same time, there have been level ~50-60's with firecapes. Tz-Tok-Jad is based just as much on the skill of the player as on the "skill" of the character, and in my opinion, is a good piece of content for this reason.

 

Okay, let's assume that there's a quest that's supposed to be "high level," but has easily attainable level requirements. What makes the quest high level? Combat would be the only answer, but since when have quests been entirely combat based? Never.

 

Underground pass springs to mind.

 

This game isn't all about combat like you seem to think.

 

And it isnt all about grinding for 200 hours like you seem to think, whats your point here?

[Bladewing]

how does it hurt you if i want to grind 200 hours for a quest? answer: it doesn't. let us nolifers do the quest and you can do every single other one.

 

underground pass is not high level content. it's just an annoying agility obstacle that makes it "difficult". it doesn't even have a good plot IMO

 

could you screencap your adventurer's log to prove you haven't played for 200 hours?

 

i could certainly get many screencaps of various players' adventurer's logs that show that, in fact, this game is about grinding for 200 hours.

[Obtaurian]

Okay, let's assume that there's a quest that's supposed to be "high level," but has easily attainable level requirements. What makes the quest high level? Combat would be the only answer, but since when have quests been entirely combat based? Never.

 

Underground pass springs to mind.

 

This game isn't all about combat like you seem to think.

 

And it isnt all about grinding for 200 hours like you seem to think, whats your point here?

 

Underground Pass? So you in place of high-level content, you want annoying content? I'm starting to think you just dislike people in general. You want annoying obstacles rather than ones solved by having the level, and you only want some people to have content, not everyone. Interesting.

 

My point about combat is best explained by asking you this question: How does one make a quest "elite" without requiring elite levels to complete tasks in the quest?

[Troacctid]

Since it's relevant, I figured I'd better go ahead and post the link to Jagex's response to this exact question, which I happen to agree with:

 

 

It's at 12:15.

[Obtaurian]

Thanks for that, Troacctid. I, too, completely agree with him.