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1st October, 2010: Behind the Scenes - October


BloodAngel

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Underground Pass? So you in place of high-level content, you want annoying content?

 

Not the best example, but the point being that there are multiple ways to get to the same goal, you can either grit your teeth and get through via perseverence or another method (preferably there should be multiple methods based on skill level). Or get through by grinding agility to the high 60's and doing the quest without a problem.

 

and you only want some people to have content, not everyone.

 

I'm pretty sure youve got your definition of "everyone" completely out of whack, content with low requirements IS for everyone. Content with excessive requirements is exclusive to high level players

 

Say, John, has 97 fishing.

 

If a quest comes out with a 97 fishing requirement. He goes and does the quest, has fun, and comes out with a cool new 97-fishing harpoon that helps him with fishing.

 

If the same quest instead came out with a 50 fishing requirement. He goes and does the quest, has the same amount of fun, and again comes out with cool 97 fishing harpoon again.

 

Whats the difference between these two scenarios? John still has the same amount of fun either way. He still gets a reward thats exclusive to his high fishing level. The only difference is, scenario one is exclusive to him and other extremely high level fishers, while scenario two has the quest avaliable to a much vaster amount of players, and even then does not require as excessive a grind if a player does not have the requirement.

 

As i said before...

 

I guess the main argument comes down as to weather you think grandmaster quests should have random arbitary 100-200+ hour grind requirements just for the sake of exclusivity. I don't think so, you people obviously do.

 

could you screencap your adventurer's log to prove you haven't played for 200 hours?

 

i could certainly get many screencaps of various players' adventurer's logs that show that, in fact, this game is about grinding for 200 hours.

 

Theres a difference between doing a variety of skills, quests, and pking for 200 hours of play. And staring at your fisherman for 200 hours while repeating the same couple of mouse movements over and over again.

O.O

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Doesn't matter anymore. We know it's gonna happen now. :)

 

Yea, im arguing against it because i feel it won't improve the game in any way other than making high levels feel special while excluding content from lower leveled players.

 

When bad things are inevitable, you can either bend over and take it, or you can argue against it. I'm arguing against it.

O.O

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Doesn't matter anymore. We know it's gonna happen now. :)

 

Yea, im arguing against it because i feel it won't improve the game in any way other than making high levels feel special while excluding content from lower leveled players.

 

When bad things are inevitable, you can either bend over and take it, or you can argue against it. I'm arguing against it.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to post your argument on the RSOF? Clearly no one here can do anything about it. Who knows, maybe Mod Mark will listen to you. I get the feeling that he'll just see you as another whiny "gimmegimme" player, though.

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Whos mod mark and why is he relevant?

 

Also posting it on the RSOF is probably even more useless, because all arguments will be drowned under a torrent of flaming (you know, even more so than here, if thats even possible).

 

I get the feeling that he'll just see you as another whiny "gimmegimme" player, though.

 

If opposing excessive grind which is anything but fun makes me a whiny player, i guess thats what i am.

 

More realistically, im a player that actually wants people to have fun in a game.

O.O

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Mod Mark is the head content developer. He is directly relevant. Again, I'm not going to argue with you about something that's going to happen. I'm happy, and that's what counts. Have fun on the RSOF.

 

EDIT: You did watch the video that Troacctid posted, right?

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You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level. That'd be like having no quests requirements on the latest quest, but not letting you wield the reward until you have the levels despite having used it in the quest. Skill requirements correlate to the difficulty of the quest and are often related to the reward.

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You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level.

 

Why not? Some people play quests for the fun believe it or not.

 

Mod Mark is the head content developer. He is directly relevant.

 

Yea but hes not gonna see these posts anyway.

 

Again, I'm not going to argue with you about something that's going to happen.

 

Yea, you were never winning anyway, good luck.

O.O

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You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level.

 

Why not? Some people play quests for the fun believe it or not.

 

I'll just have to respectfully disagree with your argument I think.

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Mod Mark is the head content developer. He is directly relevant.

 

Yea but hes not gonna see these posts anyway.

 

Exactly.

 

Again, I'm not going to argue with you about something that's going to happen.

 

Yea, you were never winning anyway, good luck.

 

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll let you know how fun elite quests are when they start popping up.

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Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll let you know how fun elite quests are when they start popping up.

 

Its funny because in all these pages, i havent seen an argument as to how these requirements actually make the game more fun.

 

But hey, if the games more about grinding than about fun to you, all power to you.

O.O

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Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll let you know how fun elite quests are when they start popping up.

 

Its funny because in all these pages, i havent seen an argument as to how these requirements actually make the game more fun.

 

But hey, if the games more about grinding than about fun to you, all power to you.

 

Increasing requirements are a natural progression of the game, having stagnant requirements would just be pointless and the same as having no requirements.

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If you don't like grinding why are you even playing Runescape.

 

Other than Korean MMO's it's the largest grindfest there is.

 

However continuing the fishing argument, if there were to be a 95 fishing req it would have to serve as an incentive rather than a requirement.

 

ie, the reward from the quest is a new cave with access to new fish, which give more xp/gold whatever (and require 95 fishing to fish). Rather than you need 95 fishing to "fish up" a boss or something. Which doesn't really serve a purpose other than a rather arbitrary requirement.

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Since it's relevant, I figured I'd better go ahead and post the link to Jagex's response to this exact question, which I happen to agree with:

 

 

It's at 12:15.

 

I love how accurate that was to the whole discussion, yet its STILL GOING.

My personal take on it now is its an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

Its not like you loose the time you spend grinding those 200 hours of fishing from level 1 to 97 either. You do actually keep 97 fishing before, during and after the quest.

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jagex should remove rocktails from the game - i don't want to have to grind to level 90 to fish them

 

jagex should remove turmoil from the game - i don't want to have to grind to level 95 to fish them

 

jagex should remove strength from the game - i don't want to have to grind to level 99 to hit harder

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It seems people do not understand what we are saying. I will put it in a short list:

 


  •  
  • Level requirements add no fun to the game
  • Level requirements do not make the game hard, just grind
  • Just because Jagex say they will happen, doesn't mean we have to be happy and stop talking about it.
  • Content in which everybody can have a go at is much better for business than content which only a fraction can undertake.
  • Jagex have the brains to make quests hard without level requirements. Adding randomised puzzles for example.

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I disagree Danz, let me correlate the quest requirement to the overall requirements of runescape content. Over the past year or so we have seen the introduction of Turmoil (95 prayer) and Overloads (96 herblore). Those updates alone motivated me to reach goals I never imagined I would obtain just so I could get those two levels and benefit from the new updated content.

 

How is getting these levels, which were once useless, not similar to slapping a level requirement on a quest that gives the player a benefit? Such as a new ability or weaponry? I agree with you in saying grinding isn't fun. However, progressing to elite content doesn't have to be a grind and can be something to look forward to after the player has progressed through intermediate, and hard content. Does that make any sense?

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It seems people do not understand what we are saying. I will put it in a short list:

 


  •  
  • Level requirements add no fun to the game
  • Level requirements do not make the game hard, just grind
  • Just because Jagex say they will happen, doesn't mean we have to be happy and stop talking about it.
  • Content in which everybody can have a go at is much better for business than content which only a fraction can undertake.
  • Jagex have the brains to make quests hard without level requirements. Adding randomised puzzles for example.

 

I find level requirements to be rather fun to have. The fact that I got 88 sum miles in front of my friends was very fun. I mean, using a Uni when they are using a bunyip is just awesome :D Without the level requirements, it wouldn't be at all fun to have a uni. There is something to be said for bragging rights.

 

If level requirements just make the game a grind, then people should have high levels for everything anyway. I mean, saying level requirements are not hard basically says that levels are easy to get. If levels are easy to get, then why doesn't everyone have them? 97 fishing for example. I see quite a lot of posters saying that they don't like fishing on here. But fishing is easy to get, it's just a grind. But these people hate fishing, so I would assume that they can not make themselves fish for very long, they just leave and do something else. If it is difficult for them to keep fishing, then fishing would be hard for them.

 

There is tons of content for everyone. All these quests require relatively low levels that are rather easily reached. It is also good for business to keep people around longer by giving them something to work for. Enabling them to finish all quests at level 3 would lose plenty of players because they would have nothing to work for.

 

Randomized puzzles don't make the game hard. Celtic knots and puzzle boxes from clues are pitiful. They are incredibly easy to do, just a few clicks and you finish up. The puzzles in dungeoneering are the same way. Puzzles are easy, and mostly annoying, not fun.

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There is a difference between quest level requirements and skill items unlocked at certain levels such as prayers. This is that quests are separate from skills. You skill to achieve levels and these items you can attain. If you want to grind for them that is fine. But quests are quests, not skills. They should be playable separate from having to grind skilling.

 

As said, we are not saying have no level requirements, but do not make players grind excessively for them. For example, if we have had a quest requiring level 90 in x skill, yet most players would only get that skill to around 70 after completing all the other quests and having played the game for an acceptable time, the requirement would be nothing but grind. However, If Jagex were to implement more quests and content to get you to that 90, then the requirement would be less intrusive.

 

Maybe it is Runescape as a whole which needs change, making levels more fun and less grind, but that doesn't discount from the main discussion of the level requirements not being good for the game.

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they said they aren't going to suddenly create a 95 quest req when the next highest is 75. they said they are going to build up to it.

 

so your fears are unjustified

 

i agree that many skills need to be more fun to train - hunter i'm looking at you

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YOU dont understand that quests cant be hard without a level requirement.

 

Getting levels isn't "hard". It's just time consuming.

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I'm more leaning toward randomly generated puzzles, riddles, or coordinate clue-type things which require thought and reasoning to complete. Jagex has implemented some of these things in shorter quests; just not on a scale which is deserving of a true "grandmaster" quest.

 

Edit: I feel like the different sides are like two ships passing in the night. You're not understanding, or perhaps refusing to acknowledge each other's points, so there's no verbal contact. In the end, there's really no grounds for a debate, at least not in the way you're proceeding.

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