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BloodAngel

1st October, 2010: Behind the Scenes - October

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We're discussing quests, of which there is no high-level content.

 

200 hour grind requirements are not the way to make high level content, high level content should be high level in that its hard, not that it requires an extreme tolerance to boredom.

 

And they most definately do not make the game any more fun. (for low levels or high levels alike).

 

You just want to feel special, and a high-level quest would hurt your feelings, apparently.

 

O.O (Using my arguments against me, i like it, only problem is it makes no sense)

 

You don't feel special because everyone has access to a quest. You have the fun from the quest, and in a game, thats what should matter.

 

Okay, let's assume that there's a quest that's supposed to be "high level," but has easily attainable level requirements. What makes the quest high level? Combat would be the only answer, but since when have quests been entirely combat based? Never. A quest cannot be high-level without requiring both high-level combat and non-combat skills to complete certain tasks or obstacles. This game isn't all about combat like you seem to think.

 

Why are you so against releasing content for everyone?


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how does it hurt players who do not wish to grind 200 hours (which may i remind you is an absurdly arbitrary number that obviously came from your ass) for there to exist a quest or two that have high level requirements?

 

note how those requesting a quest or two with high level requirements are not suggesting that there never be any quests with low requirements. we want there to be content for everyone, while you just want low-requirement content.

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how does it hurt players who do not wish to grind 200 hours (which may i remind you is an absurdly arbitrary number that obviously came from your ass) for there to exist a quest or two that have high level requirements?

 

note how those requesting a quest or two with high level requirements are not suggesting that there never be any quests with low requirements. we want there to be content for everyone, while you just want low-requirement content.

 

Yeah the complaints about high skill levels just reek of the standard whiney "its not fair" arguement.

 

But lets face it, the most challenging puzzle can have a guide written on it, the most challenging boss fight will either solidify grinding requirements or have a guide written on it (summers end), besides levels theres absolutely nothing a developer can do to make a quest elite, since a guide written within 24 hours still wont make you have the levels you need.

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how does it hurt players who do not wish to grind 200 hours (which may i remind you is an absurdly arbitrary number that obviously came from your ass) for there to exist a quest or two that have high level requirements?

 

97 fishing requires 10 million XP.

 

At 50k XP an hour, which is a reasonable estimate, it takes 200 hours.

 

note how those requesting a quest or two with high level requirements are not suggesting that there never be any quests with low requirements. we want there to be content for everyone, while you just want low-requirement content.

 

I want there to be content for all levels, high and low, but for it NOT to require excessive grind.

 

But lets face it, the most challenging puzzle can have a guide written on it, the most challenging boss fight will either solidify grinding requirements or have a guide written on it (summers end), besides levels theres absolutely nothing a developer can do to make a quest elite, since a guide written within 24 hours still wont make you have the levels you need.

 

I love how you didn't mention reflexes on hard boss fights.

 

Tz-Tok-Jad is a hard piece of content (admittedly, its significantly easier now, but its a few years old so what can you do).

 

There have been multiple guides on how to do the fight caves. But despite this, there are still near maxed players who can't get a firecape for whatever reason, but at same time, there have been level ~50-60's with firecapes. Tz-Tok-Jad is based just as much on the skill of the player as on the "skill" of the character, and in my opinion, is a good piece of content for this reason.

 

Okay, let's assume that there's a quest that's supposed to be "high level," but has easily attainable level requirements. What makes the quest high level? Combat would be the only answer, but since when have quests been entirely combat based? Never.

 

Underground pass springs to mind.

 

This game isn't all about combat like you seem to think.

 

And it isnt all about grinding for 200 hours like you seem to think, whats your point here?


O.O

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how does it hurt you if i want to grind 200 hours for a quest? answer: it doesn't. let us nolifers do the quest and you can do every single other one.

 

underground pass is not high level content. it's just an annoying agility obstacle that makes it "difficult". it doesn't even have a good plot IMO

 

could you screencap your adventurer's log to prove you haven't played for 200 hours?

 

i could certainly get many screencaps of various players' adventurer's logs that show that, in fact, this game is about grinding for 200 hours.

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But lets face it, the most challenging puzzle can have a guide written on it, the most challenging boss fight will either solidify grinding requirements or have a guide written on it (summers end), besides levels theres absolutely nothing a developer can do to make a quest elite, since a guide written within 24 hours still wont make you have the levels you need.

 

I love how you didn't mention reflexes on hard boss fights.

 

Tz-Tok-Jad is a hard piece of content (admittedly, its significantly easier now, but its a few years old so what can you do).

 

There have been multiple guides on how to do the fight caves. But despite this, there are still near maxed players who can't get a firecape for whatever reason, but at same time, there have been level ~50-60's with firecapes. Tz-Tok-Jad is based just as much on the skill of the player as on the "skill" of the character, and in my opinion, is a good piece of content for this reason.

 

Have you forgotten that not even for elite slayer requirement did jagex have the balls to require reflex playing. They went and added a slayer point option because of the mass ammounts of complaints.

 

Lets face it reflex playing is hard (if not flat out discrimination) against older players, that point was thrown in Jagex's face with ice strykewyrms already, while levels just discriminate the lazy, not the disabled.

 

And honestly having a go at Jad 100x isnt a challenge, only part that makes it hard is the 3 hours of fighting to get to him. If there was a boss that was reflex based to kill but no levels, everyone may die a few times but will get him easily. If jagex opted to make 3 hours of trials to fight the boss, then if you die more then once wouldnt this quest STILL be a grind (with no shiny levels that you could use outside of the quest)

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Okay, let's assume that there's a quest that's supposed to be "high level," but has easily attainable level requirements. What makes the quest high level? Combat would be the only answer, but since when have quests been entirely combat based? Never.

 

Underground pass springs to mind.

 

This game isn't all about combat like you seem to think.

 

And it isnt all about grinding for 200 hours like you seem to think, whats your point here?

 

Underground Pass? So you in place of high-level content, you want annoying content? I'm starting to think you just dislike people in general. You want annoying obstacles rather than ones solved by having the level, and you only want some people to have content, not everyone. Interesting.

 

My point about combat is best explained by asking you this question: How does one make a quest "elite" without requiring elite levels to complete tasks in the quest?


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Thanks for that, Troacctid. I, too, completely agree with him.


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I hadn't seen that video before, nice to see Jagex is setting their sights high and thinking about putting in elite content for quests eventually.

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Underground Pass? So you in place of high-level content, you want annoying content?

 

Not the best example, but the point being that there are multiple ways to get to the same goal, you can either grit your teeth and get through via perseverence or another method (preferably there should be multiple methods based on skill level). Or get through by grinding agility to the high 60's and doing the quest without a problem.

 

and you only want some people to have content, not everyone.

 

I'm pretty sure youve got your definition of "everyone" completely out of whack, content with low requirements IS for everyone. Content with excessive requirements is exclusive to high level players

 

Say, John, has 97 fishing.

 

If a quest comes out with a 97 fishing requirement. He goes and does the quest, has fun, and comes out with a cool new 97-fishing harpoon that helps him with fishing.

 

If the same quest instead came out with a 50 fishing requirement. He goes and does the quest, has the same amount of fun, and again comes out with cool 97 fishing harpoon again.

 

Whats the difference between these two scenarios? John still has the same amount of fun either way. He still gets a reward thats exclusive to his high fishing level. The only difference is, scenario one is exclusive to him and other extremely high level fishers, while scenario two has the quest avaliable to a much vaster amount of players, and even then does not require as excessive a grind if a player does not have the requirement.

 

As i said before...

 

I guess the main argument comes down as to weather you think grandmaster quests should have random arbitary 100-200+ hour grind requirements just for the sake of exclusivity. I don't think so, you people obviously do.

 

could you screencap your adventurer's log to prove you haven't played for 200 hours?

 

i could certainly get many screencaps of various players' adventurer's logs that show that, in fact, this game is about grinding for 200 hours.

 

Theres a difference between doing a variety of skills, quests, and pking for 200 hours of play. And staring at your fisherman for 200 hours while repeating the same couple of mouse movements over and over again.


O.O

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Doesn't matter anymore. We know it's gonna happen now. :)


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Doesn't matter anymore. We know it's gonna happen now. :)

 

Yea, im arguing against it because i feel it won't improve the game in any way other than making high levels feel special while excluding content from lower leveled players.

 

When bad things are inevitable, you can either bend over and take it, or you can argue against it. I'm arguing against it.


O.O

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Doesn't matter anymore. We know it's gonna happen now. :)

 

Yea, im arguing against it because i feel it won't improve the game in any way other than making high levels feel special while excluding content from lower leveled players.

 

When bad things are inevitable, you can either bend over and take it, or you can argue against it. I'm arguing against it.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to post your argument on the RSOF? Clearly no one here can do anything about it. Who knows, maybe Mod Mark will listen to you. I get the feeling that he'll just see you as another whiny "gimmegimme" player, though.


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Whos mod mark and why is he relevant?

 

Also posting it on the RSOF is probably even more useless, because all arguments will be drowned under a torrent of flaming (you know, even more so than here, if thats even possible).

 

I get the feeling that he'll just see you as another whiny "gimmegimme" player, though.

 

If opposing excessive grind which is anything but fun makes me a whiny player, i guess thats what i am.

 

More realistically, im a player that actually wants people to have fun in a game.


O.O

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Mod Mark is the head content developer. He is directly relevant. Again, I'm not going to argue with you about something that's going to happen. I'm happy, and that's what counts. Have fun on the RSOF.

 

EDIT: You did watch the video that Troacctid posted, right?


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You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level. That'd be like having no quests requirements on the latest quest, but not letting you wield the reward until you have the levels despite having used it in the quest. Skill requirements correlate to the difficulty of the quest and are often related to the reward.

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You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level.

 

Why not? Some people play quests for the fun believe it or not.

 

Mod Mark is the head content developer. He is directly relevant.

 

Yea but hes not gonna see these posts anyway.

 

Again, I'm not going to argue with you about something that's going to happen.

 

Yea, you were never winning anyway, good luck.


O.O

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You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level.

 

Why not? Some people play quests for the fun believe it or not.

 

I'll just have to respectfully disagree with your argument I think.

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Mod Mark is the head content developer. He is directly relevant.

 

Yea but hes not gonna see these posts anyway.

 

Exactly.

 

Again, I'm not going to argue with you about something that's going to happen.

 

Yea, you were never winning anyway, good luck.

 

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll let you know how fun elite quests are when they start popping up.


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Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll let you know how fun elite quests are when they start popping up.

 

Its funny because in all these pages, i havent seen an argument as to how these requirements actually make the game more fun.

 

But hey, if the games more about grinding than about fun to you, all power to you.


O.O

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Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll let you know how fun elite quests are when they start popping up.

 

Its funny because in all these pages, i havent seen an argument as to how these requirements actually make the game more fun.

 

But hey, if the games more about grinding than about fun to you, all power to you.

 

Increasing requirements are a natural progression of the game, having stagnant requirements would just be pointless and the same as having no requirements.

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But hey, if the games more about grinding than about fun to you, all power to you.

 

Citation needed.


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If you don't like grinding why are you even playing Runescape.

 

Other than Korean MMO's it's the largest grindfest there is.

 

However continuing the fishing argument, if there were to be a 95 fishing req it would have to serve as an incentive rather than a requirement.

 

ie, the reward from the quest is a new cave with access to new fish, which give more xp/gold whatever (and require 95 fishing to fish). Rather than you need 95 fishing to "fish up" a boss or something. Which doesn't really serve a purpose other than a rather arbitrary requirement.


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http://www.[Caution! Jagex Rule Violation].com

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Since it's relevant, I figured I'd better go ahead and post the link to Jagex's response to this exact question, which I happen to agree with:

 

 

It's at 12:15.

 

I love how accurate that was to the whole discussion, yet its STILL GOING.

My personal take on it now is its an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

Its not like you loose the time you spend grinding those 200 hours of fishing from level 1 to 97 either. You do actually keep 97 fishing before, during and after the quest.

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