1st October, 2010: Behind the Scenes - October

[xxshady]

YOU dont understand that quests cant be hard without a level requirement.

 

Getting levels isn't "hard". It's just time consuming.

 

Nothing in a game is really "hard" as much as time consuming, but its generally accepted hard = time consuming.

 

Rc is hard because its terribly slow xp per hour while prayer is easy because its fast xp per hour.

 

(money grinds for training fall under time consuming, and effort would also be a factor in hardness i suppose)

 

Really? Games aren't hard? Play a scrim in CS Source and tell me that again, RS kid.

 

and what part of runescape quests, aside from the grind, is hard

 

i haven't found one

 

Thats my point. Runescape needs more skill instead of relying on grinding for difficulty.

[Aiel]

YOU dont understand that quests cant be hard without a level requirement.

 

Getting levels isn't "hard". It's just time consuming.

 

Nothing in a game is really "hard" as much as time consuming, but its generally accepted hard = time consuming.

 

Rc is hard because its terribly slow xp per hour while prayer is easy because its fast xp per hour.

 

(money grinds for training fall under time consuming, and effort would also be a factor in hardness i suppose)

 

Really? Games aren't hard? Play a scrim in CS Source and tell me that again, RS kid.

you spend time doing it, you get better at doing it. hard=time consuming.

[Jehosaphat]

You're trying to put everybody on an equal playing field though which is unrealistic. It doesn't make sense to let everybody do a quest that will test their combat and puzzle solving skills and then say, well you can't have the reward because you aren't high level.

 

Why not? Some people play quests for the fun believe it or not.

 

I'll just have to respectfully disagree with your argument I think.

THANK GOD FINALLY.

 

Now, let's end this rather long-winded tiring, and seemingly pointless debate, and go back to discussing the BTS.

 

So, we've seen the Void quest. What do you guys think/hope/wish Charm Sprites will be like?

[Tact]

So, we've seen the Void quest. What do you guys think/hope/wish Charm Sprites will be like?

Sounds like spirit implings to me, but in a minigame format.

[ghjkl]

There is nothing to discuss IMO. We now know exactly what the rest of the updates are, except for Halloween which I doubt no one cares about. Dunno about hunter updates, but I doubt there are that many summoning tanks that would benifit from this.

[Bladewing]

and what part of runescape quests, aside from the grind, is hard

 

i haven't found one

 

Thats my point. Runescape needs more skill instead of relying on grinding for difficulty.

well until jagex figures out how to add difficulty other than having bosses that onehit you, all there is for quests is reqs

 

i think we actually might see eye to eye on this one

[xxshady]

and what part of runescape quests, aside from the grind, is hard

 

i haven't found one

 

Thats my point. Runescape needs more skill instead of relying on grinding for difficulty.

well until jagex figures out how to add difficulty other than having bosses that onehit you, all there is for quests is reqs

 

i think we actually might see eye to eye on this one

:thumbup:

[xxshady]

YOU dont understand that quests cant be hard without a level requirement.

 

Getting levels isn't "hard". It's just time consuming.

 

Nothing in a game is really "hard" as much as time consuming, but its generally accepted hard = time consuming.

 

Rc is hard because its terribly slow xp per hour while prayer is easy because its fast xp per hour.

 

(money grinds for training fall under time consuming, and effort would also be a factor in hardness i suppose)

 

Really? Games aren't hard? Play a scrim in CS Source and tell me that again, RS kid.

you spend time doing it, you get better at doing it. hard=time consuming.

 

This and i know you play WoW as well shady, that game is just like rs, takes time to be good not skill. (or in the case of a raiding, it takes 25 people with half a brain)

 

WoW takes time AND skill. If you don't have good reflexes and a good understanding of the mechanics of a specific boss, your group will wipe. Just like if you don't understand how to kill a gluttenous behemoth you're gonna just stand there and attack for hours until you run out of heim crabs.

 

Nomad = skill. Firemaking = grind.

 

More Nomad, less Firemaking. I don't think anyone will be able to disagree with that.

[Bladewing]

nomad does not require skill, just having the combat stats to kill him before you run out of your brews

 

imo skele trio is a better example

[xxshady]

nomad does not require skill, just having the combat stats to kill him before you run out of your brews

 

imo skele trio is a better example

 

I'm sure that's true for maxed players. I'm talking about the average player who attempts to kill Nomad. Saying it doesn't take any skill is pretty ridiculous.

 

And yes, several Dungeoneering bosses take skill as well. That's why Dungeoneering is one of my favorite updates of all time (incentivizing the grinding, while rewarding it with fun gameplay, while having useful rewards and perks).

[Jehosaphat]

nomad does not require skill, just having the combat stats to kill him before you run out of your brews

 

imo skele trio is a better example

 

I'm sure that's true for maxed players. I'm talking about the average player who attempts to kill Nomad. Saying it doesn't take any skill is pretty ridiculous.

 

And yes, several Dungeoneering bosses take skill as well. That's why Dungeoneering is one of my favorite updates of all time (incentivizing the grinding, while rewarding it with fun gameplay, while having useful rewards and perks).

 

i killed nomad without any 80 combat stats but hp, ammi skilled in doing so? not really the mechanics of the fight are pretty straightforward its just a dps/endurance race

Not to mention knowing not to step on the 'mines,' knowing to hide from his 700(i think)-hitting attack, to hide from/autoretaliate the clones, the brew up when he freezes you, to use a cargo familiar until you're out of food....

 

I see Nomad very much like I see Dwarf Fortress. If you do everything right, and in the right order, with the right amount of experience in having done so (i.e. skill), or with the right amount of sheer brute force (i.e. steel titan, ovls, and turmoil) you will succeed. Otherwise, you basically get dumped in magma. (And sorry for those who don't get the reference; you'd have to have played the game.)

[Bladewing]

nomad does not require skill, just having the combat stats to kill him before you run out of your brews

 

imo skele trio is a better example

 

I'm sure that's true for maxed players. I'm talking about the average player who attempts to kill Nomad. Saying it doesn't take any skill is pretty ridiculous.

 

And yes, several Dungeoneering bosses take skill as well. That's why Dungeoneering is one of my favorite updates of all time (incentivizing the grinding, while rewarding it with fun gameplay, while having useful rewards and perks).

 

i killed nomad without any 80 combat stats but hp, ammi skilled in doing so? not really the mechanics of the fight are pretty straightforward its just a dps/endurance race

shady, this is what i was referring to. the fight takes no skill - it's just dealing damage faster than he can use your brews

 

a fight like skele trio involves kiting, binding, use of multiple combat styles, correct use of prayers, as well as being tough monsters

[xxshady]

nomad does not require skill, just having the combat stats to kill him before you run out of your brews

 

imo skele trio is a better example

 

I'm sure that's true for maxed players. I'm talking about the average player who attempts to kill Nomad. Saying it doesn't take any skill is pretty ridiculous.

 

And yes, several Dungeoneering bosses take skill as well. That's why Dungeoneering is one of my favorite updates of all time (incentivizing the grinding, while rewarding it with fun gameplay, while having useful rewards and perks).

 

i killed nomad without any 80 combat stats but hp, ammi skilled in doing so? not really the mechanics of the fight are pretty straightforward its just a dps/endurance race

shady, this is what i was referring to. the fight takes no skill - it's just dealing damage faster than he can use your brews

 

a fight like skele trio involves kiting, binding, use of multiple combat styles, correct use of prayers, as well as being tough monsters

 

Fair enough. As long as the ratio of skill to grind content improves I will be a happy man.

 

Viva la Dung

[999134]

There is nothing to discuss IMO. We now know exactly what the rest of the updates are, except for Halloween which I doubt no one cares about. Dunno about hunter updates, but I doubt there are that many summoning tanks that would benifit from this.

I will :D

[Sir_Kurity]

Increasing requirements are a natural progression of the game, having stagnant requirements would just be pointless and the same as having no requirements.

 

Quests can and should progress in difficulty, but do high requirements actually add anything to the game?

 

As far as im concerned, any quest requirement which requires an excessive amount of grind (excessive is kinda based on how long/good the quest is), doesn't actually add anything to the game, and only really makes high levels happy while saying screw you to everyone else.

 

As for boss fights taking no skill, well that could really be a problem with bosses. If your only solution to that is to force people into grinding a skill into the high 90's in order to add "difficulty" then thats not the right way to go about it.

 

I for one would have more fun in a quest if i beat a boss with reflexes and skill, not with grinding which apparently makes the quest "harder".

[Obtaurian]

Increasing requirements are a natural progression of the game, having stagnant requirements would just be pointless and the same as having no requirements.

 

Quests can and should progress in difficulty, but do high requirements actually add anything to the game?

 

As far as im concerned, any quest requirement which requires an excessive amount of grind (excessive is kinda based on how long/good the quest is), doesn't actually add anything to the game, and only really makes high levels happy while saying screw you to everyone else.

 

As for boss fights taking no skill, well that could really be a problem with bosses. If your only solution to that is to force people into grinding a skill into the high 90's in order to add "difficulty" then thats not the right way to go about it.

 

I for one would have more fun in a quest if i beat a boss with reflexes and skill, not with grinding which apparently makes the quest "harder".

 

Quests shouldn't be all about combat, etc.

[1337_Byte]

Increasing requirements are a natural progression of the game, having stagnant requirements would just be pointless and the same as having no requirements.

 

Quests can and should progress in difficulty, but do high requirements actually add anything to the game?

 

As far as im concerned, any quest requirement which requires an excessive amount of grind (excessive is kinda based on how long/good the quest is), doesn't actually add anything to the game, and only really makes high levels happy while saying screw you to everyone else.

 

As for boss fights taking no skill, well that could really be a problem with bosses. If your only solution to that is to force people into grinding a skill into the high 90's in order to add "difficulty" then thats not the right way to go about it.

 

I for one would have more fun in a quest if i beat a boss with reflexes and skill, not with grinding which apparently makes the quest "harder".

 

Agreed, most of the time a skill requirement in a quest is used one time just so it can be a requirement. Quests should be about fun puzzles and combat. Not gathering 50 items and having to grind skills to get them done. I don't even do quests anymore because they're so redundant.

 

 

 

[green9090]

As far as im concerned, any quest requirement which requires an excessive amount of grind (excessive is kinda based on how long/good the quest is), doesn't actually add anything to the game, and only really makes high levels happy while saying screw you to everyone else.

Yes, because those poor people without the proper levels will NEVER EVER have a chance to train up to them.

 

To me, the only "screw you" happening here is from Jagex to the people with high levels in skills like crafting or smithing. They absolutely refuse to give many skills any sort of use (outside of minigames, particularly dungeoneering, though only noobs waste time making armor there).

 

Quest requirements are an excellent opportunity to make SOME incentive to train an otherwise dead skill. And for those who don't have the levels yet? Congratulations, you now get to train to that level for a GOAL rather than just grinding for the sake of grinding. That's a lot more fun. If you don't like grinding levels to reach a goal, then what the hell are you DOING on this game?

[xxshady]

Quest requirements are an excellent opportunity to make SOME incentive to train an otherwise dead skill. And for those who don't have the levels yet? Congratulations, you now get to train to that level for a GOAL rather than just grinding for the sake of grinding. That's a lot more fun. If you don't like grinding levels to reach a goal, then what the hell are you DOING on this game?

 

Everyone has satisfaction when grinding to reach a specific goal. Even me. However, EXCESSIVE grinding (50+ hours) with no goal in sight is not good game design.

[green9090]

Quest requirements are an excellent opportunity to make SOME incentive to train an otherwise dead skill. And for those who don't have the levels yet? Congratulations, you now get to train to that level for a GOAL rather than just grinding for the sake of grinding. That's a lot more fun. If you don't like grinding levels to reach a goal, then what the hell are you DOING on this game?

 

Everyone has satisfaction when grinding to reach a specific goal. Even me. However, EXCESSIVE grinding (50+ hours) with no goal in sight is not good game design.

Then don't do the quest when/if it comes out. The fact is, a lot of people plan on getting 99 in everything, and like to have landmarks to hit on the way. If you don't think getting your stats high enough for something very difficult and high level is worth it, DON'T, but don't oppose such updates just because you aren't ready to work for them yet.

[Jehosaphat]

Quest requirements are an excellent opportunity to make SOME incentive to train an otherwise dead skill. And for those who don't have the levels yet? Congratulations, you now get to train to that level for a GOAL rather than just grinding for the sake of grinding. That's a lot more fun. If you don't like grinding levels to reach a goal, then what the hell are you DOING on this game?

 

Everyone has satisfaction when grinding to reach a specific goal. Even me. However, EXCESSIVE grinding (50+ hours) with no goal in sight is not good game design.

Then don't do the quest when/if it comes out. The fact is, a lot of people plan on getting 99 in everything, and like to have landmarks to hit on the way. If you don't think getting your stats high enough for something very difficult and high level is worth it, DON'T, but don't oppose such updates just because you aren't ready to work for them yet.

It'd be better for the game in general if they go toward high-level reqs slowly, as opposed to tomorrow going "OHAI NEW QUEST WITH 97 RC REQ LOLOLOL."

[Obtaurian]

Quest requirements are an excellent opportunity to make SOME incentive to train an otherwise dead skill. And for those who don't have the levels yet? Congratulations, you now get to train to that level for a GOAL rather than just grinding for the sake of grinding. That's a lot more fun. If you don't like grinding levels to reach a goal, then what the hell are you DOING on this game?

 

Everyone has satisfaction when grinding to reach a specific goal. Even me. However, EXCESSIVE grinding (50+ hours) with no goal in sight is not good game design.

Then don't do the quest when/if it comes out. The fact is, a lot of people plan on getting 99 in everything, and like to have landmarks to hit on the way. If you don't think getting your stats high enough for something very difficult and high level is worth it, DON'T, but don't oppose such updates just because you aren't ready to work for them yet.

It'd be better for the game in general if they go toward high-level reqs slowly, as opposed to tomorrow going "OHAI NEW QUEST WITH 97 RC REQ LOLOLOL."

 

As has been said multiple times.

[green9090]

Yeah, it's much better to let the game stall out with most skills having no reason to go beyond 70-ish.

[Jehosaphat]

Yeah, it's much better to let the game stall out with most skills having no reason to go beyond 70-ish.

And when they get to the point where they start to stall, that's when you add content for level 72, 75, 78, 80, 82, and just gradually move up the line improving the skill so that players get something moderately interesting every few levels or so. (Not like Smithing, where it's "hey, you can more smith some even MORE useless crap!" every time you level)

[ghjkl]

Construction is the same thing from 52 to 99.