1st October, 2010: Behind the Scenes - October

[Sir_Kurity]

having a degree and getting a nice job is fun

 

having a nice car is fun

 

i don't know about you, but some people actually have fun in life

 

How is this relevant. The grind is not fun, and this is a game, with the purpose being to have fun.

 

Some grind is not bad, and doesn't detract from the fun. But encouraging 100-200+ hours of watching your character bob up and down over a fishing spot cannot be considered fun by anyones measure.

 

Why then are you arguing that questing should remain easy,

 

Did i ever say that? I wan't quests to be hard, fun, etc. Quests should be hard and i am fine with that, they should not have insane requirements.

 

that you should not have to actually train your character to do quests.

 

Again, im fine with that. But anything into the 90's is way excessive. And encouraging 200+ hours of grind which is anything but fun especially in some of the more boring skills.

 

If you want quests that don't require any skills to finish, go play one of these MMOs.

 

I want quests that don't require excessive requirements to finish.

 

I acknowledge that runescape has one of the best quests ive ever come across, MMO-wise. But 90+ grind requirements would really detract from the fun.

 

the way you are saying it makes it seem like a quest should only be about lore. if thats what they are supposed to be then they might as well be a wall of text. A quest is a journey through the game, sometime for back story, sometimes not. If you disagree please tell me what cooks assistant has to do with any sort of conceivable plot line. During most journeys some form of SKILL is required to complete a task, do you think Odysseus would have been able to fight off 20+ suitors with an attack level anywhere below 65? no! not a chance! So needing 80 mage to unravel the secrets of a mystically bound door is quite the fair thing to ask.

 

But the real question is why?

 

This is a game, we all obviously play to have fun. Do random 90+ arbitary quest requirements actually add to the fun in anyway? Do they prolong the fun in anyway? Do they do anything positive for the game other than making the high levels feel special about themselves for about 5 seconds?

 

Of course not, so why should there be such excessive requirements for quests. Questers who want to have fun should be able to have fun questing without excessive grind.

 

-------------------------

 

I guess the main argument comes down as to weather you think grandmaster quests should have random arbitary 100-200+ hour grind requirements just for the sake of exclusivity. I don't think so, you people obviously do.

[Bladewing]

okay how about a quest that requires all skills 89 then

 

your complaint about 90+ reqs is equally, if not more, arbitrary than having those requirements

[Sir_Kurity]

okay how about a quest that requires all skills 89 then

 

I'm opposing excessive grind, not specifically 90+ requirements. I thought that was obvious at this point.

 

your complaint about 90+ reqs is equally, if not more, arbitrary than having those requirements

 

Of course, 97 fishing was just an random example. I'm opposing the grind, not the specific requirement.

 

As i said before...

 

I guess the main argument comes down as to weather you think grandmaster quests should have random arbitary 100-200+ hour grind requirements just for the sake of exclusivity. I don't think so, you people obviously do.

[xxshady]

I'm opposing excessive grind, not specifically 90+ requirements. I thought that was obvious at this point.

 

People tend to just parse words once they run out of actual arguments. If you see a "rebuttle" like that, it generally means you've won.

[Sir_Kurity]

I'm opposing excessive grind, not specifically 90+ requirements. I thought that was obvious at this point.

 

People tend to just parse words once they run out of actual arguments. If you see a "rebuttle" like that, it generally means you've won.

 

I'll keep that in mind :thumbup:

[Den]

I'm opposing excessive grind, not specifically 90+ requirements. I thought that was obvious at this point.

 

People tend to just parse words once they run out of actual arguments. If you see a "rebuttle" like that, it generally means you've won.

 

I'll keep that in mind :thumbup:

 

Problem is I've seen this from both sides. So I guess everyone's a winner today. :thumbsup:

[ho3f3l]

i just think JAGEX should remake all quests and just remove skill requirements on all of them!

 

oh my, imagine what would that be, if i complety unskilled could reveal all mysteries from mahjarrat, and ancient secrets, or help someone without having a clue of what im doing? wouldnt that be LAME?

 

of course skill levels are required to do quests, if you dont have, well you got two options, train and do the quest or dont!

but dont come tell that it shouldnt have some higher requirements, i just hope when we proceed to some near end storylines, that include awesome charaters, that we should be as just qualified as them.

[Sir_Kurity]

of course skill levels are required to do quests, if you dont have, well you got two options, train and do the quest or dont!

but dont come tell that it shouldnt have some higher requirements, i just hope when we proceed to some near end storylines, that include awesome charaters, that we should be as just qualified as them.

 

I guess the main argument comes down as to weather you think grandmaster quests should have random arbitary 100-200+ hour grind requirements just for the sake of exclusivity. I don't think so, you people obviously do.

 

I never said there should be no skill requirements, but excessive skill requirements which need insane amounts of grind does anything but improve the game.

[ruben1026]

I need to start those damn quests but I hate questing and omg why make x now after all the hard work.

[ho3f3l]

of course skill levels are required to do quests, if you dont have, well you got two options, train and do the quest or dont!

but dont come tell that it shouldnt have some higher requirements, i just hope when we proceed to some near end storylines, that include awesome charaters, that we should be as just qualified as them.

 

I guess the main argument comes down as to weather you think grandmaster quests should have random arbitary 100-200+ hour grind requirements just for the sake of exclusivity. I don't think so, you people obviously do.

 

I never said there should be no skill requirements, but excessive skill requirements which need insane amounts of grind does anything but improve the game.

 

i understand what your trying to say, but imagine that you are a King of some major country, and information gets to you that some major demons from the pass are getting ressurected and the one behind that is aiming your country, you see that with your current army you got no chance, and you decide to invite all kings from all others countrys to make an aliance that never existed before, and for that to start with the right foot, you decide to please all of them on your kingdom. Now for that would you want for instance a help of someone who can crack till the end of the world where some mystical fish lives, wich only the most skilleds can fish and then cook, or you want to treat them with some 'vulgar' lobster? would you want to give as a gift a beatifull bow, that requires ancient magic wood, or a yew bow? and so on ...

so you can with all that gifts gain their side, so they all join you in some mega war, and to join all the army they need some HERO, a man/woman who fighting skills fewer can achieve, that the army just by standing near to him/her glows confidance and bravery, or would you want a man who doesnt even have the strengh to lift up some rune weapon?

 

Can you see where im going?

 

that what i think of a quest that sould indeed require some elite requirements, as we aproach some near end / end of major storylines.

 

Now should every other week quest have higher requirements? no, of course not.

But should a few quests have some elite requirements? you know my answer

[Sir_Kurity]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

[Obtaurian]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

 

Prove that training any skill for 200 hours isn't fun.

[ho3f3l]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

 

So whats the point in making quests? shouldnt they make sense while they cover some of the storylines of runescape?

Or should we do quests like go talk with John Doe, after that ignore everything he said to you, doesnt matter at all, and now go kill some prety monster, just becouse i say so! but why? who cares?! just go kill and then i will give you a lamp that gives 10k xp and some prety weapon with a cherry on top. wohoo, what a FUN QUEST!!!

 

one thing you dont have in mind is that, there are levels of quest, novice, intermediate, experienced, master and grandmaster. So each level of quest, should require some higher patamar of skills as well.

if for instance one of the levels you couldnt meat, you just dont do the quest, as if you dont have some levels in all skills, you cant do some part of the game. live with it

 

oh! and i would for sure have plenty of fun doing a quest where i would be some major hero, that would assemble a mega army and prepare to go to a legendary war! and if on the way i would have to go deep on the underground to find that mystic lake and so and so, i would enjoy it as well, perhaps those caves would have some challengs, or some guardians, that would make the travel awesome! :P

 

"and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish"

 

The part of that quest would only be catching some uber rare and delicious fish, so you could please some of the allys.

I believe you are getting the things wrong, its not becouse the quest have some difficult and for someone not fun to get requirements that it becomes more or less FUN

[Danqazmlp]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

 

Prove that training any skill for 200 hours isn't fun.

 

 

Go train fishing for 200 hours, come back and tell me you had 100% fun doing it, then you can use that as proof. Sorry but that is just an idiotic thing to say.

 

 

The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it. The reasons for lower requirements without excess grind is to make the game fun, which we should all essentially be playing it for, and should be the groundwork and basis for any game that exists. Lower requirements let players train skills at their own pace going through the game without overloading them with all quests at once, but letting them get the levels through other quests, random musings, money making etc.

 

Grinding for requirements however has no point. They don't need to be there.

[ho3f3l]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

 

Prove that training any skill for 200 hours isn't fun.

 

 

Go train fishing for 200 hours, come back and tell me you had 100% fun doing it, then you can use that as proof. Sorry but that is just an idiotic thing to say.

 

 

The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it. The reasons for lower requirements without excess grind is to make the game fun, which we should all essentially be playing it for, and should be the groundwork and basis for any game that exists. Lower requirements let players train skills at their own pace going through the game without overloading them with all quests at once, but letting them get the levels through other quests, random musings, money making etc.

 

Grinding for requirements however has no point. They don't need to be there.

 

for me, there sould exist quests that need some elite requirements, im not saying making all of them like that, not even close, i do agree that most should be mid level, but some (just a few) should be for elite. we have up till grandmaster, what if they just add another category, a harder one, with higher requirements, would that harm all players?

 

as i recall, the ideia of elite diarys was a good one, why not do the same to quests, but as i said, just a few, one to start perhaps ;)

 

if we shouldnt grind for requirements, everything in this game should be available at level 1...

[ho3f3l]

lagged, double post.

Edited October 5, 2010 by ho3f3l

[rthensley]

"The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it."

 

The requirements required should coorelate to the rewards received. It is that simple.

 

If a quest gives pretty much no reward, then there should be very little requirements.

 

If a quest gives medium-levell rewards = mediium-level requirements.

 

If a quest gives high-level rewards = high-level requirements.

 

Wouldn't that make a lot of sense?

[Danqazmlp]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

 

Prove that training any skill for 200 hours isn't fun.

 

 

Go train fishing for 200 hours, come back and tell me you had 100% fun doing it, then you can use that as proof. Sorry but that is just an idiotic thing to say.

 

 

The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it. The reasons for lower requirements without excess grind is to make the game fun, which we should all essentially be playing it for, and should be the groundwork and basis for any game that exists. Lower requirements let players train skills at their own pace going through the game without overloading them with all quests at once, but letting them get the levels through other quests, random musings, money making etc.

 

Grinding for requirements however has no point. They don't need to be there.

 

for me, there sould exist quests that need some elite requirements, im not saying making all of them like that, not even close, i do agree that most should be mid level, but some (just a few) should be for elite. we have up till grandmaster, what if they just add another category, a harder one, with higher requirements, would that harm all players?

 

as i recall, the ideia of elite diarys was a good one, why not do the same to quests, but as i said, just a few, one to start perhaps ;)

 

if we shouldnt grind for requirements, everything in this game should be available at level 1...

 

 

There is a difference between everything being available to everybody and not having to grind. Take your average console game. you play through the story unlocking things as you go, new weapons, better armour maybe and progressing through the levels and story as you go. That is how this game should be. A console game that made you grind through it 20 times to be able to unlock the final level would get the worse reviews in history.

 

If players want to grind for pointless 99's let them, but that doesn't mean that everybody should have to do so to get access to another part of the game. Levelling should be its own reward separate from quests. As I say, to skill you can skill, to quest you have to skill still, which shouldn't be the case. To put it in perspective, imagine if before you could get any levels, you HAD to have a quest cape. Imagine if you were forced to stop training attack at level 59 until you had trained herblore to 70, fm to 84 and wc to 86? It would be preposterous.

 

"The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it."

 

The requirements required should coorelate to the rewards received. It is that simple.

 

If a quest gives pretty much no reward, then there should be very little requirements.

 

If a quest gives medium-levell rewards = mediium-level requirements.

 

If a quest gives high-level rewards = high-level requirements.

 

Wouldn't that make a lot of sense?

 

But how do you value rewards? Many players such as myself give no thought about Exp rewards or money rewards. The story and the fun in playing through that story is the factor. A harder quest with puzzles and length will give a higher reward.

[Will H]

Who cares about weather or not it makes sense (and it doesnt make sense to have to catch over 100 thousand fish just to please a king with some magical fish), this is a game, you play for fun. Whether or not it makes sense shouldn't be the major issue here seeing as runescape generally doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Having fun should be paramount, not 200 hours of grind just for the game to make "sense".

 

Prove that training any skill for 200 hours isn't fun.

 

 

Go train fishing for 200 hours, come back and tell me you had 100% fun doing it, then you can use that as proof. Sorry but that is just an idiotic thing to say.

 

 

The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it. The reasons for lower requirements without excess grind is to make the game fun, which we should all essentially be playing it for, and should be the groundwork and basis for any game that exists. Lower requirements let players train skills at their own pace going through the game without overloading them with all quests at once, but letting them get the levels through other quests, random musings, money making etc.

 

Grinding for requirements however has no point. They don't need to be there.

 

for me, there sould exist quests that need some elite requirements, im not saying making all of them like that, not even close, i do agree that most should be mid level, but some (just a few) should be for elite. we have up till grandmaster, what if they just add another category, a harder one, with higher requirements, would that harm all players?

 

as i recall, the ideia of elite diarys was a good one, why not do the same to quests, but as i said, just a few, one to start perhaps ;)

 

if we shouldnt grind for requirements, everything in this game should be available at level 1...

 

We've only got two Grandmaster Quests, and we're only just getting a third. People are still arguing about what really defines a 'Grandmaster' quest, because there aren't enough of them to make that really clear. Jagex are doing the right thing by fleshing out the Grandmaster tier with more content. I feel that an effort is being made to have equal amounts of content in every tier, the lower tiers have shorter quests, so there's more of them. The higher tiers have fewer but longer quests, but Grandmasters haven't caught up with the rest, hence why another Grandmaster is being released. I recall that in a Runefest video, they said that they'll get some more out first, and then they'll release the next tier.

[Glove]

The thing is, those arguing for higher requirements have't really said any reasons for it. The reasons for lower requirements without excess grind is to make the game fun, which we should all essentially be playing it for, and should be the groundwork and basis for any game that exists. Lower requirements let players train skills at their own pace going through the game without overloading them with all quests at once, but letting them get the levels through other quests, random musings, money making etc.

 

Grinding for requirements however has no point. They don't need to be there.

 

I think I've laid out quite clearly why there might be a reason to have high requirements for a quest. Quite simply, if you have a narrative that requires a show of skill beyond that which a person could ordinarily show that it should correspond with a greater skill level demanded as a requirement to complete that narrative. I've also laid out some examples within mythology where skills unrelated to combat were needed to accomplish important tasks and finish quests.

 

I've laid out my point of view in what I believe is a clear manner. I understand that we don't agree on a very basic level about what type of content should and should not be restricted by extreme level requirements. I believe that this is because I fundamentally believe that story that requires epic achievements and moments in which the hero must go beyond and produce extraordinary skill and ingenuity to respond to equally extraordinary circumstances should correlate to requiring extraordinary levels (which in Runescape equates to time spent leveling skills) from the player who wishes to play through those moments. Anything less would honestly be a bit of let down. It wouldn't be proportionate, and it would likely kill my suspension of disbelief. I believe it's reasonable for content creators to ask this from players from time to time; not often, not even semi-regularly, but from time to time.

 

I don't think we're going to come to a consensus on this, so I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. I understand that you may not value or appreciate my reasoning, but please don't say it hasn't been said. If you think there is some point which could use further clarification or documentation, I would very much be happy to provide that as I have plenty of time on my hands today.

[brando13a]

I'm confused on why people are taking such offence to having low-no requirements for quests.

 

the way I see it, people are suggesting simply, that quests can be done by anyone at any time. Whether or not its feasable, or even possible at certain levels is the whole point however. Basically, questing would become a true challenge, able to be taken on by anyone, but extremely difficult without the "recommended skills". Obviously some skill levels would be required, such as the Hero's Guild fishing requirement, which you actually need to fish lava eels.

 

People are obviously miffed at the arbitrary requirements, which see no actual use, such as a door which only opens with X smithing. Why not make it a % chance to open based on your level? when you meet the recommended skill level, its 100%, but before this point its variably more difficult. In the same boat, combat requirements are often arbitrary, as anyone can really complete a combat task in their own way.

 

I see a "suggested level" system being far more dynamic, and allowing ingenuity that doesnt exist in runescape today. Some quests do throw out a totally random requirement, just for the sake of having a high requirement. This makes no sense in the context of anything really, allowing people to attempt things at any time, but with varying degrees of difficulty would be an amazing way to go about things. Retaining the current skill requirements as suggested skills, would allow players to see where they "should" be in order to succesfully complete the quest. Most quests can be completed well before the requirements are met, so why not allow people to attempt it?

 

So have strict level requirements, or a dynamic system build on player choice vs difficulty. We all know that it will remain as the first, but the second is a solid, viable, and somewhat more appealing system which would open questing in a new way.

[Den]

Go train fishing for 200 hours, come back and tell me you had 100% fun doing it, then you can use that as proof. Sorry but that is just an idiotic thing to say.

 

I have 9m Fishing exp over 99. I wouldn't have gotten that if I didnt think fishing was fun. I would gladly fish that extra 1m exp if that proves to you that I find fishing fun, because 200 hours of fishing is 10m exp at a rate of 50k exp per hour. (I could get 60k an hour through barbarian fishing as well.)

[Danqazmlp]

Go train fishing for 200 hours, come back and tell me you had 100% fun doing it, then you can use that as proof. Sorry but that is just an idiotic thing to say.

 

I have 9m Fishing exp over 99. I wouldn't have gotten that if I didnt think fishing was fun. I would gladly fish that extra 1m exp if that proves to you that I find fishing fun, because 200 hours of fishing is 10m exp at a rate of 50k exp per hour. (I could get 60k an hour through barbarian fishing as well.)

 

 

But in context, he said prove that 200 hours in any skill isn't fun. There are the odd exception which will already have gained the exp, but a majority of those that do not will not. If they did, they would already have it or be on the way to it. For the same reason that there will be a skill you personally dislike training, you would not have fun grinding that for hours to full fill a quest requirement that has been put there for nothing more than to give it a requirement.

 

Glove, I would partly agree except that in most quests now, the player is not a brave hero sent on an adventure, he is more often than not a bumbling idiot stumbling through a series of predicaments. But Brando made a great point, allowing skills to help reach the requirements but not be strict sets would be the best situation. A superhero would be able to open the door with his 96 smithing while the average player would take a few tries gathering the materials to get through.

[Den]

Still though, if you need 94 magic to use ice barrage in a quest where 9 magical fires have to be taken out at the same time, I would see no problem in it.

Just because I want to make overloads at 60 herblore doesnt mean the requirement to make them should be 60.

Just because I want to complete every quest the second they come out with all my stats at 60, doesnt mean the requirements for quests should be capped at 60.

Just because slayer isnt my favorite skill and I dont want to "grind 200 hours" to 99 for a skill cape, doesnt mean I should be handed one without doing it.

 

And besides, I have no idea why this keeps going on. Its not like 97 in ANY skill will be a quest requirement anytime soon. Its like worrying about a comet suddenly hitting earth and wiping out loads of amounts of people while laying a large area barren.

[Amundogus2]

Kind of silly argument you're having there, it's not like you have to grind for 200 hours for one quest, there are 170 or so quests in the game now, ranging all the way from novice (lvl 5 mining or so) to GM with 70+ reqs. Its a very gradual level up process indeed, and the levels should come naturally as you progress through the game, unless you do nothing else than questing.

 

Jagex have stated they will continue to gradually raise the requirments of quests, they won't just spontaneously release a quest requiring 5 85+ skills, but they'll come in time.