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1st October, 2010: Behind the Scenes - October


BloodAngel

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Repost from my Update Teasers post:

 

New picture from Facebook:

 

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I swear to God, if this is just one giant Conquest game, I will be so dissapointed.

 

Hah, I knew they'd do that as part of a quest. I'm pretty sure it will only be one of many puzzles you'll encounter though. If there's one thing Jagex does well, it's quests.

Maybe it's like the first Harry Potter. Defeat a big monster; incinerate the local flora; get a certain key; play Conquest; get drunk and kick a mysterious sorcerer's behind.

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I actually like your idea of putting a player on an island and giving him/her an alloted amount of time to prepare for an extremely difficult boss fight, but I still think that high requirements are an essential part of progressing the game.

 

Lol, that instantly made me think of Minecraft.

 

Me too. Then again, that kind of concept is part of why Minecraft is so good. I'd be all for defeating a boss using weapons and equipment you made with your bare hands.

Isn't this called dungeoneering?

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I actually like your idea of putting a player on an island and giving him/her an alloted amount of time to prepare for an extremely difficult boss fight, but I still think that high requirements are an essential part of progressing the game.

 

Lol, that instantly made me think of Minecraft.

 

Me too. Then again, that kind of concept is part of why Minecraft is so good. I'd be all for defeating a boss using weapons and equipment you made with your bare hands.

Isn't this called dungeoneering?

 

Just with a time limit, and more sand/or w/e some quest points. Also more water.

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I actually like your idea of putting a player on an island and giving him/her an alloted amount of time to prepare for an extremely difficult boss fight, but I still think that high requirements are an essential part of progressing the game.

 

Lol, that instantly made me think of Minecraft.

 

Me too. Then again, that kind of concept is part of why Minecraft is so good. I'd be all for defeating a boss using weapons and equipment you made with your bare hands.

Isn't this called dungeoneering?

 

I... uh... oh. Oh yeah. icon_redface.gif

~ W ~

 

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I'm not quite sure why you feel that having content tailored to players of ALL level ranges is a bad thing

 

Because ive already stated in my previous post. Content that requires 97 fishing is not for "all level ranges" its for people with 97 fishing, and only people with 97 fishing.

 

My God, how did I become a target for trolls? :rolleyes: You can't be serious. Here, let's do a simple quiz:

 

1. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to low-level players? Yes, yes there is.

 

2. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to mid-level players? Yes, yes there is.

 

3. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to high-level players? No, there are none; not a single one.

 

WHICH IS WHY I KEEP SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE CONTENT FOR EVERYONE. Is it really such a difficult concept to wrap your head around? Of course a 97 fishing requirement wouldn't be for "all level ranges," it would be for high-level players, BECAUSE LOW AND MID-LEVEL PLAYERS HAVE THEIR CONTENT ALREADY, HENCE MY OPINION ON THE MATTER.

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@ sir squab

 

im bsing? i could kill 5-10 nomads no doubt

 

nomad is fairly weak to stab, i have chaotic rapier

 

you have to use brews basicly, i have pack yak + inv of brews

 

brews lower your stats, i have overload

 

you cant use prot prayers, i have soul split and turmoil

 

you can dismiss yak supplys on floor, i summon steel titan (im 200k from 99 summon and i have thousands of charms, including blue, so in the time you take to read this post i could go get 99 if i wanted)

 

he hits alot with mage, ill just use eagle eye shield, ill also go buy morrigans since its fairly cheap for a special occasion

 

enhanced excalibur or claws for spec

 

basicly nomdad is a pushover, i killed him at 100 combat with none of the above listed, if your 120+ complaining its hard thers something wrong, if your lvl 90 complaining its hard you shouldnt be trying the quest

 

Did you kill Nomad the first day the quest was out, or did you have the benefit of other people's experience? Because one definitely has the advantage over the other. Just like Fight Caves are easy --now. The first day they were out nobody could figure out how to beat them.

 

It's easy to sit back after other people have figured out a general strategy and pooled together information that can help formulate strategies through their own trials and errors. So yes, unless you killed Nomad the first day (or with a reasonable lack of knowledge or strategy after the first day) I'm calling BS.

 

Not saying you couldn't beat him easily, it's just 5-10 sounds a lil high. But, I don't know first hand what someone with chaotic gear, overloads, maxed combat stats can do.

 

Also, I'm level 120+, I DO (did) think Nomad was hard... I'm a quester, first few times I fought him I had no idea what I was up against. Although, once I actually figured out a strategy to beat him, it wasn't too bad.

 

LOL at everyone bashing Squisher for being good at MHing.

 

well the main point of my post was to show that now we have the luxury of all these things, back when i first killed nomad i had none of that, things like rapier werent out

 

if i were to kill nomad now it would be a hell of alot eaiser than when i did it on day 1

 

thats why the newest grandmaster quest boss should be much harder, since theres much better stuff available now

 

I agree. Personally, I think grandmaster quests are hardly worthy of being the most difficult quests. There should be at least two more tiers -- elite and legendary quests (yes, I know there would be confusion between legendary quests and Legends' Quest). Elite should require 80-90 skills, legendary should require 90+ and have incredibly difficult bosses. Frankly, I could care less about people who think they're entitled to their quest capes. Quests should never have limits as far as difficulty and skill requirements.

 

Regarding the idea of quests with a 90+ requirement...

 

That's nice that you have that dream. Unfortunately, because of questcapes, Jagex can't massively increase the stats for them, without fairly large ranting. (Just one of the many ways skillcapes changed RS. Wouldn't be nearly such a big problem without the cape. Then again, without skillcapes, there probably wouldn't be as many people with skills in the 90+ range wanting a quest in the 90+ range....) So, anyways, for better or for worse, 90+ skill reqs on quests won't happen; at least not until Jagex slowly works up the skill reqs that high. (Getting there with magic. But, I have 98. So.) Not saying Jagex won't release content requiring such high levels, but it won't be in the form of a quest. (Again, unless quest reqs slowly work their way up that high.) Have all you people wanting a high level quest with 90+ stats forgotten there could be other ways for 90+ content? On that note, why didn't anyone arguing against a 90+ req on a quest have the imagination to come up with the thought that "here's a piece of 90+ content that isn't a quest."

 

Also, I'm being very strict with the word Quest. Quest, in this case, ONLY applies to quests listed in the quest log you need for a questcape. It doesn't apply to bonus quests (such as part 2 of that Fun 'N Seek quest) or the Ghostly mini-quest. (In fact, Fun 'N Seek is a perfect example of this, because the slayer requirements to beat the wishlist on that quest are/were higher then the reqs for the actual questcape.) I encourage content for (bringing up the classic example) 97 fishing, it just can't be a "quest" in the strictest sense of the word.

 

And frankly, why not have a quest that requires say, 65 fishing to do, but one of the rewards is something really useful that only 97+ fishers can use? Sorta like the Adaze, except make it more useful then that. Oh, and fyi, (please don't ask me to quote where Jagex said this, I won't quote it, so if you don't want to believe me then don't) but I'm pretty sure Jagex has a grandmaster quest with an 80+ req for most sklls.

Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.
[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]

my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them me

Buying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.

Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:

your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


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Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue.

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And frankly, why not have a quest that requires say, 65 fishing to do, but one of the rewards is something really useful that only 97+ fishers can use?

 

Exactly. This quote destroys any opposing argument. Jagex only puts these as quest requirements because they want people to do the long grinding, as that allows for longer subscription times and more money. And no, this isn't a conspiracy theory, Jagex is a business and they need to make money. Every MMO developer does this. It's just that Runescape has more grinding than any other western MMO.

 

In an ideal world quests wouldn't have ANY requirements. If theres a boss you deal with it with your own strategies/combat stats, if there are puzzles you deal with it with your intellect, etc. Only the specific rewards that deal with certain skills should have specific requirements.

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And frankly, why not have a quest that requires say, 65 fishing to do, but one of the rewards is something really useful that only 97+ fishers can use?

 

Exactly. This quote destroys any opposing argument. Jagex only puts these as quest requirements because they want people to do the long grinding, as that allows for longer subscription times and more money. And no, this isn't a conspiracy theory, Jagex is a business and they need to make money. Every MMO developer does this. It's just that Runescape has more grinding than any other western MMO.

 

In an ideal world quests wouldn't have ANY requirements. If theres a boss you deal with it with your own strategies/combat stats, if there are puzzles you deal with it with your intellect, etc. Only the specific rewards that deal with certain skills should have specific requirements.

 

Your argument will simply change from quest reqs to item reqs if you do that.

 

This is runescape.

Getting levels is the name of the game.

Exclusive Legacy Mode Player

 

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He just successfully trolled you with "courtesy" and managed to get a reaction out of you. Lol

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And frankly, why not have a quest that requires say, 65 fishing to do, but one of the rewards is something really useful that only 97+ fishers can use?

 

Exactly. This quote destroys any opposing argument. Jagex only puts these as quest requirements because they want people to do the long grinding, as that allows for longer subscription times and more money. And no, this isn't a conspiracy theory, Jagex is a business and they need to make money. Every MMO developer does this. It's just that Runescape has more grinding than any other western MMO.

 

In an ideal world quests wouldn't have ANY requirements. If theres a boss you deal with it with your own strategies/combat stats, if there are puzzles you deal with it with your intellect, etc. Only the specific rewards that deal with certain skills should have specific requirements.

 

Your argument will simply change from quest reqs to item reqs if you do that.

 

This is runescape.

Getting levels is the name of the game.

 

Not really. The argument is that quests have arbitrary pre-requisites that don't help you during the quest. This will solve that problem, and it will allow for those who want a SPECIFIC reward to grind that skill, instead of forcing all questers to grind a specific skill. Contrary to popular belief, several people do quests for the actual quest, and not just for the reward.

 

And when I played Runescape I didn't think levels were the name of the game. The only reason I got levels were to allow myself to do quests/activities/dung/etc.

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3. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to high-level players? No, there are none; not a single one.

 

Depends what you consider high level.

 

Most grandmaster quests, are in my opinion, tailored to high level players. They may not have elite requirements, but they have elite content (or should).

 

WHICH IS WHY I KEEP SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE CONTENT FOR EVERYONE. Is it really such a difficult concept to wrap your head around? Of course a 97 fishing requirement wouldn't be for "all level ranges," it would be for high-level players, BECAUSE LOW AND MID-LEVEL PLAYERS HAVE THEIR CONTENT ALREADY, HENCE MY OPINION ON THE MATTER.

 

Why do i have to keep saying that elite requirements do not equal elite content, i'll quote you "Is it really such a difficult concept to wrap your head around?"

 

Corp is elite content, it does not have, by your defintion, elite requirements. But saying that its tailored to mid level players is nothing short of BS.

O.O

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3. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to high-level players? No, there are none; not a single one.

 

Depends what you consider high level.

 

Most grandmaster quests, are in my opinion, tailored to high level players. They may not have elite requirements, but they have elite content (or should).

 

I highly disagree. The upcoming quest will apparently have the highest requirements of any quest, and they're all in the 70s (and 80 magic). That's not even close to 99. High-level is at least 90. There are no quests with elite content, and I doubt this upcoming quest will change that.

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Here, let's do a simple quiz:

 

1. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to low-level players? Yes, yes there is.

 

2. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to mid-level players? Yes, yes there is.

 

3. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to high-level players? No, there are none; not a single one.

 

I don't wanna get into this argument, but I do wanna share my two cents on this matter. I think you are looking at the same content, but at a different angle. Allow me to take your same exact questions and reword them.

 

1) Are there quests that low-level players can complete? Yes, but not to many until they become stronger.

 

2) Are there quests that mid-level players can complete? Yes, most quests, but a few may be quite difficult/impossible until they are stronger.

 

3) Are there quests that high-level players can complete? Yes, all quests.

 

High-level players do not have the benefit of "elite" quests that only they can complete; but instead they have the benefit of being strong enough to complete quests without any additional training or struggle. I am a firm believer that you should be able to go from the very beginning quests to the very end of all the quest lines without any training required. IF there are quests that require 90+ in a certain skill, then there should be enough quest rewards placed in the game before hand to achieve those levels. I am not against high level requirements, but I am against high level requirements just for the sake of having a "elite content quest" that only a certain number of people can do. That's what achievement diaries are for.

 

Not gonna argue, I just wanted to share my opinion.

 

Back OT: This quest looks interesting and I am excited to see the series come to a close. I hate loose ends >.>

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But I'm not arguing that high-level requirements should be slapped on for the sake of exclusivity. I'm arguing that elite quests should have elite content, puzzles, monsters, REQUIREMENTS, and rewards befitting of those requirements.

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But I'm not arguing that high-level requirements should be slapped on for the sake of exclusivity. I'm arguing that elite quests should have elite content, puzzles, monsters, REQUIREMENTS, and rewards befitting of those requirements.

 

So incredibly excessive requirements should just be slapped on JUST for the sake of exclusivity.

 

I know you deny it, but seriously. There is NO REASON outside exclusivity, that there should be excessive requirements. Considering that it won't actually improve the quest or content in any way, shape, or form. Some of the rewards on the other hand could have big requirements and i wouldnt mind, like in all fired up.

 

Elite quests should have elite content, it should not have "elite" requirements just so people can feel special, there are skillcapes for that.

O.O

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But I'm not arguing that high-level requirements should be slapped on for the sake of exclusivity. I'm arguing that elite quests should have elite content, puzzles, monsters, REQUIREMENTS, and rewards befitting of those requirements.

 

So incredibly excessive requirements should just be slapped on JUST for the sake of exclusivity.

 

I guess thats where our views differ.

 

I'm with Obtaurian on this one. I think quests by nature allow players to get greater rewards for their skill levels, not for how good they are at a particular task. It doesn't matter how good at combat or clicking you are, but if you can't complete WGS, you won't be killing more TDs than even the weakest quester.

 

I totally agree, however, that every requirement should have a legitimate purpose behind it. Creating arbitrary skill levels that don't make thematic sense with the content being played does not make a quest better. However, things like having a high magic level to manipulate rune-based puzzles make sense, as does having a high mining level to mine through obstacles, etc.

2496 Completionist

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I'm with Obtaurian on this one. I think quests by nature allow players to get greater rewards for their skill levels, not for how good they are at a particular task. It doesn't matter how good at combat or clicking you are, but if you can't complete WGS, you won't be killing more TDs than even the weakest quester.

 

So, requirements should be chucked in just for the sake of exclusivity while adding nothing to the actual content.

 

I'm fine with skills being rewarded in quests, as i have already stated. But anything with a 90+ quest requirement is an excessive grind with no reason for being there outside making it exclusive to high level grinders.

 

Plus, skills with ELITE CONTENT, do reward people who have high levels, but its not a hard-grind requirement that adds nothing. You won't see level 3's beating up nomad regardless of quest requirements.

 

Creating arbitrary skill levels that don't make thematic sense with the content being played does not make a quest better. However, things like having a high magic level to manipulate rune-based puzzles make sense, as does having a high mining level to mine through obstacles, etc.

 

Fine, as long as it doesnt go to extremely high grind levels such as the 80's and 90's.

 

Also, wouldn't it make just as much "sense" if your friend could assist you in mining through the obstacle? If this ever happens you should be able to assist quest requirements.

O.O

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3. Are there quests that are specifically tailored to high-level players? No, there are none; not a single one.

 

Depends what you consider high level.

 

Most grandmaster quests, are in my opinion, tailored to high level players. They may not have elite requirements, but they have elite content (or should).

 

I highly disagree. The upcoming quest will apparently have the highest requirements of any quest, and they're all in the 70s (and 80 magic). That's not even close to 99. High-level is at least 90. There are no quests with elite content, and I doubt this upcoming quest will change that.

 

Why do we need quests with 90+ requirements on quests? Don't tell me we need elite content/quests/whatever, tell me the practical purpose of a 90+ req on a quest. Or 99. Or why you can arbitrarily decide what "high level" is.

 

I can easily give you the practical purpose for NOT having a quest with 90+ requisite. It will annoy questers who don't have the req for it. Jagex can't immediately make a 90+ quest requirement, because a lot of people will lose their questcapes. I don't care what YOU think about this; from Jagex's perspective, it would be a completely stupid move to piss off that many customers. Jagex IS slowly making the reqs for the questcape harder you know. But they CAN'T do it all at once, because pissing off your customers is not widely regarded as a smart business strategy, if nothing else.

 

Or to put it another way....

 

I will accept a quest with a 97 fishing requirement when there is already a quest with a 95 fishing requirement.

 

Which basically means* that you CAN have a quest with a 97 requirement, Jagex just needs to slowly work their way up there.

 

*Well, that's how I interpreted it. tracctid, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

To paraphrase something I posted earlier...

 

And again, don't see why we can't just have 90+ content a reward from a quest instead of a requirement. Kinda like the Adaze, but better. Or a mini-quest or extra quest (I mentioned fur 'n seek wishlist and ghostly robe mini-quest as examples) that have 90+ reqs. Jagex can put in stuff like that because questers won't whine about losing their questcape. Whether you like it or not, Jagex just can't put in high reqs on quests people too many questers will whine. Say what you want about it, that's the truth of the matter.

 

Perhaps you could have a quest where you impress someone with cooking; by either going around RS collecting ingredients for some special dish, or by showing off your cooking skillcape. There's a variety of ways to include 90+ stats in quests, just not in the requirements themselves. (Or, for that matter, unwritten requirements. Try Underground Pass at 20 agility. Or Olaf's quest at ~56 agility the day it came out. I did both those things and it didn't work....)

Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.
[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]

my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them me

Buying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.

Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:

your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


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Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue.

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Why do you assume all players that have skills in the 80s and 90s used grinding to get there? I know it's not true for my account.

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"He could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder."

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Why do you assume all players that have skills in the 80s and 90s used grinding to get there? I know it's not true for my account.

 

I don't assume that, some people may have built them up very, Very, VERY slowly over the years while genuinely having fun.

 

What i DO know is that if a quest came out with a 97 fishing requirement. Its encouraging people to grind LRC for 200 hours to get there. And if anyone wants to do the quest, and doesnt have the requirement, he would be HAVE to grind there.

 

This is especially true with 90+ requirements which literally take hundreds of hours to get.

 

And especially especially true with fishing, which is one of the boringest and slowest skills in the game alongside mining/rc/agi.

O.O

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And the Living Rock Caverns were designed to train fishing in. You're only making excuses not to train a skill repetitively and I hope you remember that you're playing an MMORPG; there is going to be a little bit of time necessary to complete the game. Try not to be so negative :thumbup:

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"He could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder."

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You're only making excuses not to train a skill repetitively and I hope you remember that you're playing an MMORPG;

 

Oh is it suddenly wrong to not want to grind fishing for 200 hours? I hope you remember that you're playing a game.

 

Try not to be so negative :thumbup:

 

I am being positive, im trying to improve this game. Or at least stop it from going in the complete wrong direction.

 

Your the one being negative by trying to make this game worse.

O.O

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I'm not really sure why having high skill requirements for a quest would be such a bad thing. Any quester with half a brain knows to train all skills because you can never know exactly what a quest will throw at you in requirements; it's always been this way. I pretty much loathe agility, but I raised it for ME2 (and then kept raising it for fear of needing a higher agility lvl for another quest). That's just how it goes. Being able to assist req quest requirements would defeat the purpose. The quest throws a task your way and you get someone else to do it? Sure, there are plenty of quests in various mythologies that are tackled by a group of specialists (i.e. Jason and the Argonauts), but one of the main draws of Runescape is that it doesn't require you to specialize; you can choose to put those kinds of restraints on your gameplay, but it isn't at all mandatory. The Runescape type hero tends to be a hero in the sense of being generally more awesome at everything he or she tries than anyone else (that can be suckered into doing it anyway) like Lugh (who has about a billion epithets because he was the most awesomest at everything, literally). It's also not uncommon in mythology for heroes to require more than combat savvy to complete a quest. Odysseus (or Ulysses, whichever you prefer) relied on his wits to get out of the sticky situations he found himself in on his ten year voyage home; he strapped himself to the bottom of a sheep to sneak out of a blind cyclope's cave. What do you think, hunter rec for that? Maybe summoning and a little crafting?

 

It's really not uncommon for heroes on quests in mythology to be required to perform strange tasks completely unrelated to actual combat. Fionn mac Cumhaill had to cook a salmon for this guy (he inadvertently got super powers during the task, I'm not even joking... seriously, Irish mythology is crazy/awesome like that). Arthur (in the original Welsh cycles) had to help his cousin Culhwch get the girl, which amounted to running around getting all sorts of things (including a brush and scissors big and strong enough to groom a giant's beard). Perseus had to steal the Graeae's eye long before he ever faced off against Medusa. Even Hercules, known for his brute strength and combat prowess, had to finish one of his labours by tricking Atlas rather than resorting to fighting. There are tons and tons of other examples from mythologies around the world of heroes having to resort to skills and tactics that don't at all rely on combat prowess to finish their quest and win the day. So there is a precedence within narratives revolving around heroism for non-combat skills to be important parts of the hero's journey and success, and that Runescape quests tend to exhibit that same attribute generally makes them better rather than worse. Is it annoying to have to gather up all sorts of items? Yes, but just read "How Culhwch Won Olwen" to feel better about exactly how short the list of stuff you have to gather is.

 

Basically, I don't think a fishing requirement in the 90 range (although 97 is maybe a bit excessive... but then again, there is admiral pie) would be terrible for a quest where you had to catch a magic fish (for some reason or another).

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The most successful (and yes, I know the term 'successful' is arbitrary, but Jagex clearly identifies success with high skill levels) players in Runescape grind skills. You can deny it all you want, but that has been a basic fact since the beginning of the game. You also have to remember that Runescape came out over 9 years ago. Plenty of players, myself included, have been playing for a good number of years and have accumulated a relatively high total skill level but do not grind out skills for the sake of the 99.

 

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to train for 200 hours on a certain skill. That decision has repercussions, though, when you choose not to train a certain skill you are also choosing to forgo any rewards that you may have been able to receive. It's a simple concept and one that is found in many games where stats and levels are the focal point.

 

Anyways, it sounds like a whole bunch of sour grapes to me...

phpFffu7GPM.jpg
 

"He could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder."

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