More USA documents get released by Wikileaks

[Saru Inc]

You didn't answer my question.

[Skeptical]

You didn't answer my question.

 

I did. I also chucked in an explanation of why I felt that way, completely free of charge.

[sees_all1]

The point isn't whether or not you think the information is important: when people get the news that they want, we get Faux News blasting Obama like this.

 

I want information, not idiotic dribble being spoon-fed to me because I find it hard to think critically for myself. (If I sound bitter: my boss was watching Faux, and I really don't have much patience for slandering, xenophobic commie-haters, so the internet is being subjected to my rage.)

I know that 90% of the information isn't important, based on the amount of stuff he posted. If there 200 pages, I'd believe there was something significant. But this was just everything and anything the leak could get their hands on. Its the same as if a Google employee decided that everyone's gmail account information was public, and released that. There's no reason for it, and it'll probably put everyone in a bad light. No, the public doesn't have the "right" to know.

[Saru Inc]

You didn't answer my question.

 

I did. I also chucked in an explanation of why I felt that way, completely free of charge.

 

 

You edited that in after I posted, nice try though.

 

 

However, "

No one complains that reporters risk their lives in war zones: we value information. If I knew that publishing something that would upset the Fundies, I would publish it despite the death threats and assassination attempts, if the information was of value. Wikileaks would let me publish it without being identified, and bring it to much broader public attention."

 

Does not answer:

 

"

"I also wonder what's one's argument that supports Wiki Leaks, if Wikileaks posts material that endangers one's lives. "

 

 

 

What's not to figure out what I mean? How would you justify Wikileaks existence on this planet, if someone died because of it? Anyone. Not just a soldier. Anyone. Justify it."

 

 

Third times the charm?

[Skull]

He did answer it, it protects freedom of speech and prevents censorship, something thousands have died for in the past and something that people around the world die for every single day. People die for much less worthy causes than from the protecting of freedom of information.

[Skeptical]

I'll try again as well:

 

Without proper information being provided to the people, we will end up with more wars like Iraq, places like Guantanamo, and less and less freedom.

 

And once again, expanding on what I said previously:

 

I'm a pragmatist: I'm not sure that I'd have the guts to shove someone in front of a trolley to save a dozen construction workers, but if one person has to die to prevent torture, genocide, illegal wars, the deaths of millions and violations of people's personal rights, then so be it.

 

We trade over a million lives each year for the convenience of travel by vehicle, why is it unreasonable to trade one for the absence of the above? I would also like to point out, that as of yet, not a single death has resulted from this transparency, nor does any seem likely. Seems like a knee-jerk reaction from people who really don't want to be held accountable.

 

EDIT: Thanks Skull: I was starting to wonder if my linguistic skills had abandoned me entirely - normally people understand my position, even if they don't agree with it.

[Saru Inc]

He did answer it, it protects freedom of speech and prevents censorship, something thousands have died for in the past and something that people around the world die for every single day. People die for much less worthy causes than from the protecting of freedom of information.

 

Maybe thats what he meant, but that's not what he said.

 

I'll try again as well:

 

Without proper information being provided to the people, we will end up with more wars like Iraq, places like Guantanamo, and less and less freedom.

 

And once again, expanding on what I said previously:

 

I'm a pragmatist: I'm not sure that I'd have the guts to shove someone in front of a trolley to save a dozen construction workers, but if one person has to die to prevent torture, genocide, illegal wars, the deaths of millions and violations of people's personal rights, then so be it.

 

We trade over a million lives each year for the convenience of travel by vehicle, why is it unreasonable to trade one for the absence of the above? I would also like to point out, that as of yet, not a single death has resulted from this transparency, nor does any seem likely. Seems like a knee-jerk reaction from people who really don't want to be held accountable.

 

EDIT: Thanks Skull: I was starting to wonder if my linguistic skills had abandoned me entirely - normally people understand my position, even if they don't agree with it.

 

 

So if your brother and sister were in a special ops mission to take out a high profile taliban leader, and someone hundreds of miles away leaked that plan. 3 weeks later, you receive two pine boxes air shipped to you, and you're ok with that?

 

 

As well, you are missing the key point, though I'm assuming you're intentionally leaving it out. The information doesn't have to be leaked, and the lives will still be saved. You imply that if you don't leak the information, that lives would be saved? That is not what I said. I said that if you leaked the documents lives would be LOST. I never said anything good would come out of it.

 

Being a pragmatist doesn't mean anything.

[Skeptical]

Ah. I now understand your position is based on a lack of information:

 

It isn't plans being leaked: we aren't creating a system of spies to provide information to the enemy. It's documents that have already been created, concerning events that have already transpired.

 

No one will have their life placed at risk by the cables: people's political careers may be damaged, and relations between countries may be changed, but no one stands to be directly harmed, so far as anyone is aware.

 

As to your belief that I did not express myself clearly, forgive me for being skeptical: I am generally a very carefully worded individual, and I say what I mean. Clumsy wording and contorted structure, ill-formed thoughts and illogical opinions beset the best of us, but a third party has now explicitly stated what I was trying to communicate, and you have agreed with his interpretation. I'm quite intending to make you uncomfortable here: the creation of the last page of posts has been due to your mis-interpretation, and I am content to leave it at that, having stated it for the record.

 

EDIT:

 

# The pursuit of practicality over aesthetic qualities; a concentration on facts rather than emotions or ideals.

# (politics) The theory that political problems should be met with practical solutions rather than ideological ones.

# (philosophy) The idea that beliefs are identified with the actions of a believer, and the truth of beliefs with success of those actions in securing a believer's goals; the doctrine that ideas must be looked at in terms of their practical effects and consequences.

 

Sounds quite reasonable and useful to me, although I do profess interest in how it is that you disagree.

[Nadril]

I just see a lot of this as needlessly instigating. Again, I think freedom of the press is a good thing and I do think people have a right (to a point) to know what's going on. However some things are supposed to be classified.

 

What would happen if leaked documents instigated something between the US and another country? Maybe I just value confidentiality too much but I don't know why someone would think they have a right to know EVERYTHING that goes on. I mean we hardly know the inner workings of companies such as Microsoft or Apple; why should we for our government?

 

I just want to know why some people feel entitled to stuff like this.

[Skeptical]

When people exercise their right to free speech to criticize free speech...

 

[hide][/hide]

 

I don't think most posters have any idea of exactly what is on WL: this is a good way to get a handle on it. If you plan to post, please read it.

 

The government serves the people. We are not served by secrecy about crimes commited in our names, and then the information being withheld from us by our own media's incompetence.

 

Assange said in the TEDtalk that I posted previously that he thought it wasn't that WikiLeaks was amazing at releasing classified information, but that our own media is so bad it looks wonderfully effective by comparison.

[Furah]

Skeptical, for the most part media outlets are afraid of the government shutting them down so they can't make lovely, lovely money.

 

Saru, I for one would oppose the release of something that would compromise the lives of soldiers by giving their enemies whereabouts of their locations or knowledge of their battleplans. As it stands, WikiLeaks is not about to do something so stupid. It's also different to what they usually leak:

 

 

War, killings, torture and detention

 

• 
   
  
• Changes in Guantanamo Bay SOP manual (2003-2004) - Guantanamo Bay's main operations manuals
  
• Of Orwell, Wikipedia and Guantanamo Bay - In where we track down and expose Guantanamo Bay's propaganda team
  
• Fallujah jail challenges US - Classified U.S. report into appalling prison conditions in Fallujah
  
• U.S lost Fallujah's info war - Classified U.S. intelligence report on the battle of Fallujah, Iraq
  
• US Military Equipment in Iraq (2007) - Entire unit by unit equipment list of the U.S army in Iraq
  
• Dili investigator called to Canberra as evidence of execution mounts - the Feb 2008 killing of East Timor rebel leader Reinado
  
• Como entrenar a escuadrones de la muerte y aplastar revoluciones de El Salvador a Iraq - The U.S. Special Forces manual on how to prop up unpopular government with paramilitaries
  

 

Government, trade and corporate transparency

 

• 
   
  
• Change you can download: a billion in secret Congressional reports - Publication of more than 6500 Congressional Research Reports, worth more than a billion dollars of US tax-funded research, long sought after by NGOs, academics and researchers
  
• ACTA trade agreement negotiation lacks transparency - The secret ACTA trade agreement draft, followed by dozens of other publications, presenting the initial leak for the whole ACTA debate happening today
  
• Toll Collect Vertraege, 2002 - Publication of around 10.000 pages of a secret contract between the German federal government and the Toll Collect consortium, a private operator group for heavy vehicle tolling system
  
• Leaked documents suggest European CAP reform just a whitewash - European farm reform exposed
  
• Stasi still in charge of Stasi files - Suppressed 2007 investigation into infiltration of former Stasi into the Stasi files commission
  
• IGES Schlussbericht Private Krankenversicherung, 25 Jan 2010 - Hidden report on the economics of the German private health insurance system and its rentability
  

 

Suppression of free speech and a free press

 

• 
   
  
• The Independent: Toxic Shame: Thousands injured in African city, 17 Sep 2009 - Publication of an article originally published in UK newspaper The Independent, but censored from the Independent's website. WikiLeaks has saved dozens of articles, radio and tv recordings from disappearing after having been censored from BBC, Guardian, and other major news organisations archives.
  
• Secret gag on UK Times preventing publication of Minton report into toxic waste dumping, 16 Sep 2009 - Publication of variations of a so-called super-injunction, one of many gag-orders published by WikiLeaks to expose successful attempts to suppress the free press via repressive legal attacks
  
• Media suppression order over Turks and Caicos Islands Commission of Inquiry corruption report, 20 Jul 2009 - Exposure of a press gagging order from the Turks and Caicos Islands, related to WikiLeaks exposure of the Commission of Inquiry corruption report
  
• Bermuda's Premier Brown and the BCC bankdraft - Brown went to the Privy council London to censor the press in Bermuda
  
• How German intelligence infiltrated Focus magazine - Illegal spying on German journalists
   
  

Diplomacy, spying and (counter-)intelligence

 

• 
   
  
• U.S. Intelligence planned to destroy WikiLeaks, 18 Mar 2008 - Classified (SECRET/NOFORN) 32 page U.S. counterintelligence investigation into WikiLeaks. Has been in the worldwide news.
  
• CIA report into shoring up Afghan war support in Western Europe, 11 Mar 2010 - This classified CIA analysis from March, outlines possible PR-strategies to shore up public support in Germany and France for a continued war in Afghanistan. Received international news coverage in print, radio and TV.
  
• U.S. Embassy profiles on Icelandic PM, Foreign Minister, Ambassador - Publication of personal profiles for briefing documents for U.S. officials visiting Iceland. While lowly classified are interesting for subtle tone and internal facts.
  
• Cross-border clashes from Iraq O.K. - Classified documents reveal destabalizing U.S. military rules
  
• Tehran Warns US Forces against Chasing Suspects into Iran - Iran warns the United States over classified document on WikiLeaks
  
• Inside Somalia and the Union of Islamic Courts - Vital strategy documents in the Somali war and a play for Chinese support
  

 

Ecology, climate, nature and sciences

 

• 
   
  
• Draft Copenhagen climate change agreement, 8 Dec 2009 - Confidential draft "circle of commitment" (rich-country) Copenhagen climate change agreement
  
• Draft Copenhagen Accord Dec 18, 2009 - Three page draft Copehagen "accord", from around Friday 7pm, Dec 18, 2009; includes pen-markings
  
• Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2009 - Over 60MB of emails, documents, code and models from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, written between 1996 and 2009 that lead to a worldwide debate
  
• The Monju nuclear reactor leak - Three suppressed videos from Japan's fast breeder reactor Monju revealing the true extent of the 1995 sodium coolant disaster
  

 

Corruption, finance, taxes, trading

 

• 
   
  
• The looting of Kenya under President Moi - $3,000,000,000 presidential corruption exposed; swung the Dec 2007 Kenyan election, long document, be patient
  
• Gusmao's $15m rice deal alarms UN - Rice deal corruption in East Timor
  
• How election violence was financed - the embargoed Kenyan Human Rights Commission report into the Jan 2008 killings of over 1,300 Kenyans
  
• Financial collapse: Confidential exposure analysis of 205 companies each owing above EUR45M to Icelandic bank Kaupthing, 26 Sep 2008 - Publication of a confidential report that has lead to hundreds of newspaper articles worldwide
  
• Barclays Bank gags Guardian over leaked memos detailing offshore tax scam, 16 Mar 2009 - Publication of censored documents revealing a number of elaborate international tax avoidance schemes by the SCM (Structured Capital Markets) division of Barclays
  
• Bank Julius Baer: Grand Larceny via Grand Cayman - How the largest private Swiss bank avoids paying tax to the Swiss government
  
• Der Fall Moonstone Trust - Cayman Islands Swiss bank trust exposed
  
• Over 40 billion euro in 28167 claims made against the Kaupthing Bank, 23 Jan 2010 - List of Kaupthing claimants after Icelandic banking crash
  
• Northern Rock vs. WikiLeaks - Northern Rock Bank UK failed legal injunctions over the ¡Ì24,000,000,000 collapse
  
• Whistleblower exposes insider trading program at JP Morgan - Legal insider trading in three easy steps, brought to you by JP Morgan and the SEC
  

 

Censorship technology and internet filtering

 

• 
   
  
• Eutelsat suppresses independent Chinese-language TV station NTDTV to satisfy Beijing - French sat provider Eutelsat covertly removed an anti-communist TV channel to satisfy Beijing
  
• Internet Censorship in Thailand - The secret internet censorship lists of Thailand's military junta
  

 

Cults and other religious organizations

 

• 
   
  
• Church of Scientology's 'Operating Thetan' documents leaked online - Scientology's secret, and highly litigated bibles
  
• Censored Legion de Cristo and Regnum Cristi document collection - Censored internal documents from the Catholic sect Legion de Cristo (Legion of Christ)
  
• US Department of Labor investigation into Landmark Education, 2006 - 2006 investigative report by the U.S. Department of Labor on Landmark Education
  

 

Abuse, violence, violation

 

• 
   
  
• Report on Shriners raises question of wrongdoing - corruption exposed at 22 U.S. and Canadian children's hospitals.
  
• Claims of molestation resurface for US judo official
  
• Texas Catholic hospitals did not follow Catholic ethics, report claims - Catholic hospitals violated catholic ethics
  

 

[Bloodstain]

 

That's just it though - how a US Ambassador feels about their counter part is irrelevant to two country's relationship between one another. Personal information or communication is insignificant dribble, actual policy is not. If you contrast this "leak" with say, the pentagon papers, you'll find that this is all fluff, and it isn't all fluff, then its impossible to find what they want you to know. There's no purpose for the leak, nothing to prove, except that some diplomats are [wagon] behind closed doors.

 

1. There's been more useful information than what ambassadors think of other politicians

2. 291 out of 251, 287 documents have been leaked so far. Wait until we get the juicier stuff to write them off. Apparently they were important enough for the US to brief countries and withdraw ambassadors

[Skeptical]

I'm eagerly awaiting, and considering donating. You can do it by post, which is great for me, although I do have to say I would appreciate a bit more transparency about the process (which is ironic, even though censorship has forced them into it), and a way to confirm that your money actually reached them.

EDIT: Bonkers, what the heck? They're not leaking plans for the next insertion of US troops. And how can I miss my own post?

Edited December 1, 2010 by Skeptical

[Giordano]

I don't find this funny at all anymore. Too much information is being leaked, god damn can't we trust the government of a world superpower who has, relatively, kept world peace for the longest time now? Sometimes we have to trust our government and let them do the more important stuff. I think this explains my point.

 

[hide][/hide]

[krimi]

I believe the most pressing issue is the voluptuous Ukrainian nurse...

[Nadril]

I don't find this funny at all anymore. Too much information is being leaked, god damn can't we trust the government of a world superpower who has, relatively, kept world peace for the longest time now? Sometimes we have to trust our government and let them do the more important stuff. I think this explains my point.

 

 

Honestly this is kind of my point. No one has really explained why they feel the need to have knowledge of currently classified documents and conversations. I mean it's not like they're hiding this [cabbage] from you to be [bleep]s or anything, there is a reason why something is classified or not. I think too many people have this mentality of the 'big bad government' doing all these terrible things behind their back and that they clearly should know about these terrible acts.

[Saru Inc]

I think Pasta was being sarcastic...

[Howlin1]

Two days after Internet whistleblower WikiLeaks released 251,287 U.S. diplomatic cables to major media organizations including the New York Times and Der Spiegel, international police organization Interpol has placed founder Julian Assange on its wanted list for Sex Crimes, in a warrant issued by the Public Prosecution Office in Gothenburg, Sweden.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/30/wikileaks-julian-assange/

[obidiah]

I'll try again as well:

 

Without proper information being provided to the people, we will end up with more wars like Iraq, places like Guantanamo, and less and less freedom.

 

And once again, expanding on what I said previously:

 

I'm a pragmatist: I'm not sure that I'd have the guts to shove someone in front of a trolley to save a dozen construction workers, but if one person has to die to prevent torture, genocide, illegal wars, the deaths of millions and violations of people's personal rights, then so be it.

 

We trade over a million lives each year for the convenience of travel by vehicle, why is it unreasonable to trade one for the absence of the above? I would also like to point out, that as of yet, not a single death has resulted from this transparency, nor does any seem likely. Seems like a knee-jerk reaction from people who really don't want to be held accountable.

 

 

Yes it seems reasonable to me to trade one life to prevent torture, genocide, illegal wars, the deaths of millions and violations of people's personal rights.

If you think the leaking of documents is going to get anywhere near achieving this, then you're hopelessly idealistic.

 

Maybe I've misinterpreted you somehow,

but still I think some people are overestimating the good that information leaks will do, at least as much as others are overestimating the harm it will do.

Maybe the threat of information leaks will cause countries to improve their human rights records or maybe it will just cause them to improve their information security.

Maybe certain information leakage will anger some individuals already on the edge enough to pluck up the courage to do that suicide bombing causing more loss of life. It's really all speculation either way.

 

Maybe there's no death proven as a direct result of the leaks, but that doesn't mean there hasn't already been or is going to be some less direct deaths.

Similarly I'm not sure you can actually point to a life directly saved by the leaks, there may be ultimately lives saved by leaks, but that's not going to be provable either.

 

To be honest though, little of what I've seen in this latest batch of leaks seems all that wavemaking. Interesting for sure, but I can't tell if it'll ultimately have a positive or negative effect on the world.

[obfuscator]

I believe the most pressing issue is the voluptuous Ukrainian nurse...

 

Lol'd :D

 

I don't find this funny at all anymore. Too much information is being leaked, god damn can't we trust the government of a world superpower who has, relatively, kept world peace for the longest time now? Sometimes we have to trust our government and let them do the more important stuff. I think this explains my point.

 

 

Honestly this is kind of my point. No one has really explained why they feel the need to have knowledge of currently classified documents and conversations. I mean it's not like they're hiding this [cabbage] from you to be [bleep]s or anything, there is a reason why something is classified or not. I think too many people have this mentality of the 'big bad government' doing all these terrible things behind their back and that they clearly should know about these terrible acts.

 

I agree with you. To be honest, the majority of what was released makes sense and has already been speculated about. I'm all for transparency, but only when appropriate. Sometimes, things just need to be kept under wraps for everyone's good.

 

 

Two days after Internet whistleblower WikiLeaks released 251,287 U.S. diplomatic cables to major media organizations including the New York Times and Der Spiegel, international police organization Interpol has placed founder Julian Assange on its wanted list for Sex Crimes, in a warrant issued by the Public Prosecution Office in Gothenburg, Sweden.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/30/wikileaks-julian-assange/

 

Yeah, I'd heard about this before. I wonder whether it's legitimate, a possible smear campaign does come to mind though....

[magekillr]

What's not to figure out what I mean? How would you justify Wikileaks existence on this planet, if someone died because of it? Anyone. Not just a soldier. Anyone. Justify it.

 

That's quite a rigorous moral standard you have there. So let me ask you this:

 

1.) Do you support the death penalty? Innocents have been killed, particularly in countries where there's little to no due process. However, just recently in Texas there's strong evidence to suggest that an innocent man was executed just in 2000.

 

2.) The Iraq War was a war based on lies, has killed over 100,000 innocents, displaced millions more, and destroyed the country of over 26 million. Are those who supported that war guilty of anything, should they be put in jail/be killed (as I assume if there's something wrong with what Assange is doing that he should be punished somehow)? Justify that.

 

3.) How about the multiple journalists and other human beings whom the U.S. Government imprisoned (and continues to imprison) for years without charges, including many whom the Government knew were completely innocent? Are you going to apply the standard to the U.S. Government here?

 

4.) How about the Afghan War, where civilians are being slaughtered by predator drone strikes in the name of terrorism? Justify that.

 

I await an answer, or at least some wriggling, while you realize what a ridiculous statement you've made.

[Alg]

And if the leaks cause a death, is anyone expecting you to justify them? You expect Wikileaks to be better than the government, but does that absolve them in the event of any wrongdoing? Is a death caused in the name of 'free speech' and 'transparency' somehow less than a death caused by war, or does the worthy cause make those that died martyrs? Here I was thinking that avoiding any unnecessary violence was a good thing. If violence is caused in the name of ending war, what is it?

 

If you're going to say that it's a handful of deaths at most compared to the millions that the war has caused, I'm going to have to remind you that you're claiming to be better than the warmongers. At least they're honest about it though.

 

Of course not, but as you support it you're willing to dodge the question and slander people who disagree with you. "I await an answer, or at least some wriggling, while you realize what a ridiculous statement you've made."

[Range_This11]

If the government of the United States or any other government around the world points fingers at WikiLeaks for endangering lives, it's nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black. And as for the sex crimes? Seems like whenever there is a person wanted by a certain government they dig some dirt to defame them in the public eye. Whether or not those crimes are relevant to the documents doesn't matter. The only thing that does is Julian Assange is now portrayed as a possible rapist or sexual assaulter, something Americans look down upon with great scorn. This is quickly turning into a mud-slinging battle except Assange has much less to lose than anyone. Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

[Dupin]

Two days after Internet whistleblower WikiLeaks released 251,287 U.S. diplomatic cables to major media organizations including the New York Times and Der Spiegel, international police organization Interpol has placed founder Julian Assange on its wanted list for Sex Crimes, in a warrant issued by the Public Prosecution Office in Gothenburg, Sweden.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/30/wikileaks-julian-assange/

For those wondering, this was a few months ago. Sweden was Assange's safehouse at the time, being very protective of its freedom of speech and journalism laws. He had planned to get a journalism career in Sweden so as to be protected by its laws from the far-reaching fingers of the US gov't. Two women who he may or may not have had relationships with, but were at least acquaintances of his, somehow accused him of the crime. When it was clear that Assange was not in Sweden and could not be "brought in for questioning", the charges were all dropped and it became clear that the women were lying. It seems to have been an attempt to imprison or harm Assange, but the people behind it are unclear. The US gov't is not the only powerful organization interested in him, and it is not the most dangerous one either.

[obfuscator]

Two days after Internet whistleblower WikiLeaks released 251,287 U.S. diplomatic cables to major media organizations including the New York Times and Der Spiegel, international police organization Interpol has placed founder Julian Assange on its wanted list for Sex Crimes, in a warrant issued by the Public Prosecution Office in Gothenburg, Sweden.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/30/wikileaks-julian-assange/

For those wondering, this was a few months ago. Sweden was Assange's safehouse at the time, being very protective of its freedom of speech and journalism laws. He had planned to get a journalism career in Sweden so as to be protected by its laws from the far-reaching fingers of the US gov't. Two women who he may or may not have had relationships with, but were at least acquaintances of his, somehow accused him of the crime. When it was clear that Assange was not in Sweden and could not be "brought in for questioning", the charges were all dropped and it became clear that the women were lying. It seems to have been an attempt to imprison or harm Assange, but the people behind it are unclear. The US gov't is not the only powerful organization interested in him, and it is not the most dangerous one either.

Interpol just added him to their most wanted list...yesterday. http://beta.ca.news.yahoo.com/interpol-puts-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-most-wanted.html