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I agree with you guys for the most part, but what makes "man" think that X is right and Y is wrong? What makes up the difference between the two? Is it just, logic? If so, does that make logic our "god" then?

 

Just throwing ideas out there.

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I agree with you guys for the most part, but what makes "man" think that X is right and Y is wrong?

If it hurts his interests.


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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It's interesting how people seem to conflate religion, faith and theology as one in the same. Not to get into semantics, but they're very distinct and I tend to think a lot of miscommunication between people, in terms of the beliefs, are derrida-ved (hehe pun) from not expressing them separately.


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He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion

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to be honest. i hate religion, but i love christ
wat

 

what makes "man" think that X is right and Y is wrong?
"The Bible should be one sheet of paper, and on that sheet of paper it should say: "Try not to be a [bleep]."" - Jim Jeffries

 

The burden of proof is on the religious to provide evidence for a creator-god. The only reason most religious people can come up with for believing in a higher power is, "It seems nice." But just because an idea seems nice doesn't make it at all true. "What's the point of life if there's no god?" There isn't one. All meaning is man-made; life is a blank canvas on which to paint our own meaning.

I'm Atheist, and I'd probably go so far as to call myself anti-theist. I care about the truth, not because it's comforting or the idea seems nice, but because it's the truth. Because it's real.

 

And may I also assert this: No-one really believes that there is a god. That's right, no-one. If you really believed that there is an eternal heaven waiting for you after you died, you would do everything in your power to not sin, and to follow all of the Old Testament laws. But, I see nobody doing those things today. Christians often say that the Old Testament laws no longer apply, because of Jesus' death. May I provide evidence to the contrary: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB).

The reason you don't waste your life on living according to the vicious OT laws is that deep down, you know this is the only life you're going to get.


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I agree with you guys for the most part, but what makes "man" think that X is right and Y is wrong? What makes up the difference between the two? Is it just, logic? If so, does that make logic our "god" then?

 

Just throwing ideas out there.

 

It's partly logic, it's partly just human interests. Like I've said before, it is logical to have rules against killing and theft. Also morally speaking I really do think most human's are empathetic enough not to want to cause harm to other people.

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to be honest. i hate religion, but i love christ
wat

You could accept the teachings of Christ (Or broader, the tenets of a religion) without accepting the belief behind it. You probably also have atheists/agnostics that are part of a religious group as well, in the same way. It isn't an all-or-nothing issue.

Reasons may include the sense of community or the fact that even without faith the religion still offers a philosophy.

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Religion itself isn't a big problem. In fact I know quite a number of religious people who live healthy, happy lives.

 

I'm an Atheist myself, but I'm not one to completely dismantle the possibility. I believe that "God" is a man-made concept made to explain phenomena which we couldn't explain previously (and can't fully explain today) or the ideal society. Other cultures in the past (Sumer, Egypt, Greece, Rome...) all had their own ideas of this. In my opinion, it's just as likely as any of the others considering the lack of conclusive evidence. A major portion of these religions included an 'afterlife', because naturally the brain doesn't know what death is like. No one knows really, so obviously an afterlife is easy to assume since living is all we know. I am only further pushed away because of corruption in its past, and many problems associated (eg. Holy Wars).

 

Don't assume I'm against religion, because I'm not. I just have my own reasons to not believe. If you believe in a higher power, then good for you. There's no doubt that many scriptures depict values that should be respected.


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I'm atheist. I try not to hate on religious people, but, well, it doesn't work. I'm not too good at it.

 

I've earned the title of most atheist in my group of mates at school.


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to be honest. i hate religion, but i love christ
wat

You could accept the teachings of Christ (Or broader, the tenets of a religion) without accepting the belief behind it. You probably also have atheists/agnostics that are part of a religious group as well, in the same way. It isn't an all-or-nothing issue.

Reasons may include the sense of community or the fact that even without faith the religion still offers a philosophy.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

While you're thinking about that one, I have another problem. I would like to sell my sister into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? She's not the best with manners, but you could train her.

 

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Samoans, but not Maoris. Can you clarify? Why can't I own a Maori?

 

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I call the police?

 

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

 

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear contact lenses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

 

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

 

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? Can the Brisbane Lions?

 

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

I agree, let's all follow the teachings of Christ! They are moral and just! After all, Jesus and the Old Testament god are one and the same. Trinity, remember?


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I don't think Jesus would agree with half of whats in the bible.


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You mean you're surprised that laws written for a desert-dwelling culture thousands of years ago are going to conflict with your modern Australian morals? Or, you know, the fact that the Bible isn't limited to Leviticus and Exodus?

 

Every time someone brings up that dissonance, they always quote from Leviticus. No context, historical or literary, is necessary, if course... </sarcasm>

 

I do hate arguing with antitheists. It's like atheism's answer to religious zealots.

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I think of christianity as an outdated part philosophy part superstition, that a select few have been using as a tool for their own means for thousands of years.

 

Many of these stories in the bible itself have outdated morals laws and science along with contradictions.

 

The fact that the stories were hand picked from a larger group (by a committee) were the result of a thousand year old game of chinese whispers just makes it even more unreliable and flawed.

 

Religion itself doesn't bother me, but I have a low opinion of fundamentalists, and a lower opinion of those who use religion to take advantage of others.

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You mean you're surprised that laws written for a desert-dwelling culture thousands of years ago are going to conflict with your modern Australian morals? Or, you know, the fact that the Bible isn't limited to Leviticus and Exodus?

 

Every time someone brings up that dissonance, they always quote from Leviticus. No context, historical or literary, is necessary, if course... </sarcasm>

 

I do hate arguing with antitheists. It's like atheism's answer to religious zealots.

 

Dunno if you know this, but there's a lot of hate and killing and brutality in the OT. I've never been able to understand why a loving, caring, all powerful God would order the Israelites to do things like that.


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Just because somebody claims to do something in the name of god, that doesn't mean they are.

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Well the Bible is God's word, and the major stuff he wants to get through gets through. And I'm pretty sure that at multiple points God either a) instructs people to help kill people, or b) helps people to kill people (i.e. Jericho).


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Well the Bible is God's word, and the major stuff he wants to get through gets through. And I'm pretty sure that at multiple points God either a) instructs people to help kill people, or b) helps people to kill people (i.e. Jericho).

You are thinking of god almost as a human. You will have trouble if you think of it that way.


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Well the Bible is God's word, and the major stuff he wants to get through gets through. And I'm pretty sure that at multiple points God either a) instructs people to help kill people, or b) helps people to kill people (i.e. Jericho).

You are thinking of god almost as a human. You will have trouble if you think of it that way.

Btw - Christians believe that God was human, for a brief period of time.


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Well the Bible is God's word, and the major stuff he wants to get through gets through. And I'm pretty sure that at multiple points God either a) instructs people to help kill people, or b) helps people to kill people (i.e. Jericho).

You are thinking of god almost as a human. You will have trouble if you think of it that way.

Btw - Christians believe that God was human, for a brief period of time.

Hell, I believe god is everywhere and everyone. God was Jesus, but Jesus wasn't all of god.


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I'm personally atheist and i see religion as a way people deal with life, which i am ok with. What i do not like is people trying to preach or force their religion upon me. I can make up my own mind, i don't need you to tell me what my problems are. I also don't like how much conflict has come out of religion, some people need to accept that others have different beliefs.

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Religion is all around frustrating.

 

First and foremost, the most aggrivating thing about religion is how much "respect" it gets. If a man goes on the street and tried to tell people that the aliens are coming, he's crazy. If you go around and tell people that santa claus really does exist, you'd be evaluated for mental illness. If you wanted to go into a school and tell them to stop teaching kids that our Sun is a star, but instead that it is actually a giant diety -- you'd be laughed at.

 

Yet, if you want to believe that Earth is no more than thousands of years old, and that it only originated due to supernatural intervention, people have to "respect" that because it is "religion".

 

It is simply a delusion and should be treated just like every other delusion. Just because billions of people suffer from the same delusion doesn't make it any less insane or irrational.

 

There is no reason that religion should be viewed as a highly untouchable subject. If someone goes around and says stuff like "I believe women shouldn't have the right to vote" then we all have the right to argue with this person, question his belief, and express how crazy we think he is. But if someone says "I believe some guy named Jesus was the son of god and his death has saved the human race" well we aren't allowed to argue with him. Why? Cause it's his religion, of course! Religion is anybodys excuse to believe whatever the hell you want to without having to worry about thinking or having to defend your beliefs.


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Religion is all around frustrating.

 

First and foremost, the most aggrivating thing about religion is how much "respect" it gets. If a man goes on the street and tried to tell people that the aliens are coming, he's crazy. If you go around and tell people that santa claus really does exist, you'd be evaluated for mental illness. If you wanted to go into a school and tell them to stop teaching kids that our Sun is a star, but instead that it is actually a giant diety -- you'd be laughed at.

 

Yet, if you want to believe that Earth is no more than thousands of years old, and that it only originated due to supernatural intervention, people have to "respect" that because it is "religion".

 

It is simply a delusion and should be treated just like every other delusion. Just because billions of people suffer from the same delusion doesn't make it any less insane or irrational.

Yes. Religion is a delusion, and so is rationality or even delusions. Everything is a delusion :)


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Man, I love this!

 

Good arguments by you all, since I was gone most of the day I don't have time to respond to each of you individually, but I agree with bits and pieces of each of your guys' statements.

 

@ Da_Latios: As Mask stated, people are very focused on the leviticus passages, which may or may not be a bad thing. One reason why many people excuse these Old testament laws is because frankly they were set-up for a group of people who did not have modern day doctors, anti-bacterial soaps, running water to bathe, etc.

 

For example, you stated "I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense." many people know that a group of women, when living in a group, will after sometime all begin to have their "time" around the same date. Also, you forgot to mention that it says that women should leave (not direct quotation) for I believe 7 days. So in a way, when these laws were written, they were allowing the women to leave and have I guess women to women time where they could persay paint nails, have parties, etc. I'd love to continue discussing this, but i'm running out of time.

 

Sorry I can't respond to more. Keep up the discussion!!

 

EDIT: If this doesn't make any sense, I apologize. I am quite tired and may or may not be thinking very coherently.

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*snip*

Yes. Religion is a delusion, and so is rationality or even delusions. Everything is a delusion :)

And for some reason it's okay to disrespect one delusion but not another. It's somehow absurd to think that the religious man's delusion is less a delusion than Weapon's, here.

 

I'm not religious. Didn't think I'd have to point that out again but everyone seems to think I am. Weapon's post - both versions - exemplifies what I hate about antitheists. Namely, the belief that their beliefs are untouchable but anyone else's are worthy of mockery.

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*snip*

Yes. Religion is a delusion, and so is rationality or even delusions. Everything is a delusion :)

And for some reason it's okay to disrespect one delusion but not another. It's somehow absurd to think that the religious man's delusion is less a delusion than Weapon's, here.

 

I'm not religious. Didn't think I'd have to point that out again but everyone seems to think I am. Weapon's post - both versions - exemplifies what I hate about antitheists. Namely, the belief that their beliefs are untouchable but anyone else's are worthy of mockery.

 

To be honest, Mask, I would almost say that I am the religious version of you. Hahaha. 'cept you are much better at arguing, but with practice comes perfection (well not really, but whatever).

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