Is it really free-trade?

[Zaaps1]

I know I usually tend to ramble when I make posts so I'll try to keep this short. This part of the recent FAQ stood out for me:

 

How will the Grand Exchange work now?

 

Essentially it will work exactly how it worked before, just without any price restrictions. It means you will be able to offer to buy or sell at the price you think is right.

 

Will there be guide prices?

 

Yes. The guide price will be based on the previous days trading. The guide price will usually only change by a maximum of 5% per day, just as it currently works.

 

Maybe I'm just completely over-reacting, but this doesn't sound like free-trade to me. Then take into account the trade volume limits that will still exist. It's certainly better than the current restricted trade, but I can't say it's free trade. It's regulated trade.

 

I could elaborate more on my opinion, but I'd rather let the discussion evolve by itself. Here's how I feel, however:

 

Yes, it's true you can now sell any item you want at any price you want. Yes, it's true you can now send disproportionate amounts of wealth between players via. direct trade. And yes, even these guide prices, like before, will be determined by players. But just look at the name. GUIDE prices. Players may still be influencing it, but the fact remains that the Grand Exchange (but read: NOT Jagex) is telling you the price you should trade at. Of course, I understand the fact that players can completely ignore it.

 

But more often then not, players will be tempted to follow the guide prices recommended by the GE. Just look at relative trade volumes of GE trades and junk trades.

 

Then, take a look at the trade window and that nice little balance of wealth Jagex has given us. I believe there is a clear distinction between the GE prices saying: "here's what people are typically trading at" and what it does now: "I strongly recommend you trade this item at this price".

 

It's like the US government going into a supermarket, going to the cereal aisle, and saying: "most people buy cereal at $3.50 per box". The simple fact that the US government is such a big authority would probably cause most people, when going out to buy cereal, to expect to pay $3.50 per box.

 

The bigger issue, I feel, is that the guide prices might not even be a good reflection of this "mean trading price". That's because while the players influence the guide price, that's all they can do. Influence it. They can't choose it, the GE's limits makes sure of that.

 

In fact, they can't even keep them at a steady price most of the time. They can only keep the price of an item "relatively stable". The fact that the residual trading volume with respect to the daily average will almost never be 0 testifies this. In the GE, an item will ALWAYS be rising or falling. This would give the price of an item "synthetic fluctuations" when in fact it is completely stable.

 

Personally, I feel the GE system is too imperfect as it is now to accurately reflect a true free-trade market. While I would hate to see guide prices go, I think it's a lesser evil than to use the imperfection that the GE uses. The GE's regulation is still going to be here, and while it's true that yes, we can trade at any price we want, it's still a shadow looming over us. It just doesn't feel quite right. It's not exactly free trade. It's regulated trade.

[Cheefoo]

Without these trade guidelines, all hell would break loose. I think transitioning for restricted trade to free trade could be chaotic if there isn't some kind of price reference.

[i_trollz_u]

I like knowing a good value to buy things at and to know an official stable price of an item. You can get past trade limits through manual trading.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

the current guide price system doesn't work because price ceilings and floors restrict trade.

Meaning the price doesn't fluctuate on some items, for weeks at a time.

 

this should not be the case anymore once the ceilings and floors are removed.

and the guide price should adjust to the actual price much more rapidly.

 

Only rapid changes in price (namely over 5% change in 1 day) won't be accounted for.

and that should be pretty obvious, as only game updates would cause something like that.

[green9090]

The guide prices will be able to quickly move to the correct prices at 5% a day. This is good because it prevents the price from changing like 500% one day and then back down 200% the next day and then omg 1000%. The player price will be dominant because anything put in the GE away from it will either not sell or sell instantly. It's not regulated trade or anything like it.

 

Tl;dr: don't worry about it.

[Zaaps1]

Oh yes, certainly. You guys are right. I'm not worried at all about the economical aspect of it, actually. I'm more worried about the moral aspect, I guess you could call it. Or at least the more abstract part of it.

 

That the prices will settle, I have no doubt.

[Dazzuh]

Is there anything in place to stop merchanting clans from getting together and trading any item they like to one another for a much higher value than normal until it reaches a profit they are happy with then selling it? Surely this method of 'merchanting' will now be MUCH easier with free trade.

[Zaaps1]

Is there anything in place to stop merchanting clans from getting together and trading any item they like to one another for a much higher value than normal until it reaches a profit they are happy with then selling it? Surely this method of 'merchanting' will now be MUCH easier with free trade.

I saw it in another thread, but Jagex said they were going to ban merch clans officially.

 

Whether or not that does anything is a different story.

[Sir_Squab]

How well merch clan will work is a big question. They didn't exist pre-GE, when trading was done exclusively between players. So, it's questionable if they'll even work if free-trade is re-enabled. Which isn't to they WON'T work...

 

I wouldn't worry about the GE. Yes, ok, the market always fluctuates for items with the GE, but really, pre-GE items didn't usually have a set price either. Afterall, "flippers" as I will call them, existed pre-GE. I will define a flipper as a person who buys an item at a lower price, then later, but in a short amount of time, sells it for a higher price. This applies to people who "flip" items now, and can easily be applied to pre-GE flippers who made money buying and selling items for profit, often in W2. You just need to give the "short amount of time" clause some flexibility.

 

I am curious to see the effect on merch clans.

[reddawn509]

Is there anything in place to stop merchanting clans from getting together and trading any item they like to one another for a much higher value than normal until it reaches a profit they are happy with then selling it? Surely this method of 'merchanting' will now be MUCH easier with free trade.

I saw it in another thread, but Jagex said they were going to ban merch clans officially.

 

Whether or not that does anything is a different story.

 

That's my concern.. you can ban something as much as you like, but I doubt it will make much of a difference see; Botting.

 

On-Topic though, personally I really like the guide line of a middle price, but that's really all it should ever be seen as. It does seem slightly invasive to keep a middle price, as if Jagex endorses items being sold at a certain price, but I'm not sure how else it could be done to effectively give a ballpark estimate of an item's worth. As long as everyone understands its just an estimate I don't think there would be an issue.

 

Perhaps a system would work better that shows the minimum and maximum prices an item has sold for within the time from the last GE update to the next (accounting for outliers, of course) and allow people to determine their own selling price based on the information of the max and min values, as opposed to the middle value... I don't know if that would actually change anything except keep prices slightly more inconsistent, but it might remove the sort of feeling that a price is being imposed upon someone....

[NukeMarine]

Don't confuse the GE with player to player trades. Complaining about purchase limits at the GE is akin to complaining about purchase limits at a general store "What do you mean I can only buy 5 pieces of cheese!".

 

Actual GE Limits:

 

1. Six active buy/sell requests (two for free to play). Want to do more trades, then post on the forums or hauk your wares outside the GE.

2. Buy limits (perhaps 100 per 4 hours for most non-consumables). Want to buy more, purchase straight from players

 

Really, that's it. It's not immoral to put limits on a game system that allows you to trade anonymously with any other player across all servers whether you're online or not. Compare that to unlimited trades if you choose to do person to person (must be on same server and online). Also compare that to other MMORPG's that have auction houses that charges you for each sale you put up.

 

Personally, I'd prefer even more limits on the GE. These limits apply only to the buyer and not the seller.

 

1. Buy requests only active for three days before needing renewal

2. Buy limits made more restrictive

3. Tax applied to buyer's purchase

[Wessan]

It is really free trade. Guide price will show the trend (to a degree) at which and item is trading. Items will settle and the guide will catch up.

[BeNiceOk]

As Grimey stated earlier, the only time an item would really go out of its 5% range is a game update. Other than updates, almost all items are stable in the long term, and a prices based on what is traded will correct itself rather quickly.

 

As per merchant clans:

 

Merchant clans worked by buying and item at max, rising the price, buying at max again, raising the price ect.. The only reason they were successful was because they could "force" the minimum price up. With the new system it would be VERY difficult to pull this off, as there is no floor to say tomorrow a player has to sell for 5% more than today's price. Merchant clans could spent millions to try and raise an item, but if the players continue to sell for a low or static price, an item would never rise in price (at least not to a unrealistic level).

 

In other words, it would no longer be possible to artificially raise a price unless the sellers choose to rise the cost of the items they were selling. Someone ALWAYS wants to sell a penny cheaper than someone else to get a sale, so realistically "massively forcing" the price up shouldn't be an issue unless another exploit of some sort arises.

[green9090]

As Grimey stated earlier, the only time an item would really go out of its 5% range is a game update. Other than updates, almost all items are stable in the long term, and a prices based on what is traded will correct itself rather quickly.

 

As per merchant clans:

 

Merchant clans worked by buying and item at max, rising the price, buying at max again, raising the price ect.. The only reason they were successful was because they could "force" the minimum price up. With the new system it would be VERY difficult to pull this off, as there is no floor to say tomorrow a player has to sell for 5% more than today's price. Merchant clans could spent millions to try and raise an item, but if the players continue to sell for a low or static price, an item would never rise in price (at least not to a unrealistic level).

 

In other words, it would no longer be possible to artificially raise a price unless the sellers choose to rise the cost of the items they were selling. Someone ALWAYS wants to sell a penny cheaper than someone else to get a sale, so realistically "massively forcing" the price up shouldn't be an issue unless another exploit of some sort arises.

You could still force the price up just by choking out supply. If 500 people suddenly decide that they want all the dragon bones they can buy at 1k over market value, then yeah, the price is going to rise.

 

The problem is that the price won't STAY there for any time. Once the manipulators run out of money or decide it's time to cash in, suddenly supply has doubled because we have not only the usual d bone sellers, but also the manipulators dumping their significant stocks. That means the price crashes right back to normal, and the vast majority of manipulators are out money.

 

This exact same thing happens with restricted trade, as we have now, but the GE forces it all to happen in slow motion. The price slooowly rises up as the sluggish price adjustment mechanism rises it 5% a day. Then, when the dump happens, the price slooowly returns to normal. Now, during the rise phase it is almost impossible to buy any, and during the crash it's almost impossible to sell, but that's where junk trading comes in. First you have a rising item you can cash in at GE max instantly, and if you're unfortunate and miss the dump, you have junk for selling other rising items you might have. This mechanism is the only thing that made manipulation clans viable, and it's going away.

 

Manipulation clans, as we know them, are dead. To stay alive they'd have to think of a different trick that works without junk trading.

[gspbeetle]

Imperfect or not, but it is reflecting how RL stock market works.

The initial price is set by the company, there exist a price cap and ceiling that you can offer at a time and you cant really buy 100% of any share unless you go thorough a lot of lobbying.

I believe the americians claim their market as a free market while they are printing lots of money everyday if I am not mistaken.

[Gwasha]

I'd rather see the "suggested price" when buying stuff then having to hop to world 2 for random stuff just to make sure I don't get ripped off.

 

I don't see the problem of having guidelines at all.

[Cheefoo]

I'd rather see the "suggested price" when buying stuff then having to hop to world 2 for random stuff just to make sure I don't get ripped off.

 

I don't see the problem of having guidelines at all.

 

I remember when you had to look up prices on a fansite to have any idea what something is worth. That was a pain...

 

I'd really hate it if they remove price guides entirely. It would be a step backwards.

[xSxqPowerx]

But with free trade, the GE WILL work properly. It won't be influenced by the current floors/ceilings. Items that previously were "stuck" in the GE due to having a higher street price than GE price will no longer have that issue: People can set their own price, and after a few days that GE will catch up to the market price. These items are low in trade volume anyway, not to mention typically being very expensive, and really shouldn't be an issue at all. Easier than the current junk/street system for sure.

 

Average items should, generally, but going for about what the guide price says. Might need to get used to double checking prices on forums or something, but overall should not be of concern for low value items.

[Estoc]

Back before trade limits I'd use swiftkit's price checker for prices. The only difference now is that the prices will be on the ge instead of an external toolkit. This helps newbies to deal with the massive amount of different items and prices for those items, while at the same time helping more experienced players get their full money's worth from a rising item, or get rid of an unwanted item without resorting to ridiculous junk trades.

 

Sure, some people will obey the ge price as law, but who cares, as long as you can get your money's worth from that new boss drop.

[Logdotzip]

I didn't read most of the replies, but uh, apparently the price will only update based on trades done in the GE, so if players plan to follow the suggested price closely, and if only GE trades affect suggested price, items will still be somewhat "stuck"

[green9090]

I didn't read most of the replies, but uh, apparently the price will only update based on trades done in the GE, so if players plan to follow the suggested price closely, and if only GE trades affect suggested price, items will still be somewhat "stuck"

This can't happen.

 

Let's look at an item that's stuck at the wrong price in the GE. How about... elysian spirit shield. It doesn't trade in the GE because there are WAY more people who would like to sell their shield for that price than people who would like to buy at that price. The few outliers who want to buy elysians at their current GE price got their shields a long time ago and aren't affecting the market anymore. That leaves only people who are willing to buy elysians for under the GE price.

 

Currently, the GE can't update because even if people want to sell and buy elysians at under the GE price, they can't do it unless they take their business elsewhere. After the free trade update, they'll just stick their offers in at 300m or whatever and complete them there. This will cause the GE to update downward rapidly because it will notice that, holy crap, people are trading elysians at 200m lower than I think they're worth.

 

Tl;dr- the people who follow suggested prices closely will be quickly eliminated on one side and never get their trades done on the other side, causing the market price to shift away from the suggested price regardless of how stuck they are.

[amitoz]

Seriously....?

 

 

You can still trade for whatever the hell you want to.. guide prices are so the noobs aren't buying things mindlessly for over-exemplified amounts...

[Naraku893]

yes it is really free trade

[dargonhuman]

 

I remember when you had to look up prices on a fansite to have any idea what something is worth. That was a pain...

 

I'd really hate it if they remove price guides entirely. It would be a step backwards.

 

That was annoying... That's one of the reasons I didn't do a lot of player trading back then. I either made my own, or bought from stores. I always sold to stores though - I know I could have gotten more from other players, but I was willing to sacrifice that for the convenience.

 

 

Perhaps a system would work better that shows the minimum and maximum prices an item has sold for within the time from the last GE update to the next (accounting for outliers, of course) and allow people to determine their own selling price based on the information of the max and min values, as opposed to the middle value... I don't know if that would actually change anything except keep prices slightly more inconsistent, but it might remove the sort of feeling that a price is being imposed upon someone....

 

I like that idea, personally. Having a middle range as a suggested price, as opposed to just a single number, would be far more useful. For example, I make throwing knives for smithing EXP and when I sell the knives, I tend to just use the floor limit and they sell almost instantly (

[obidiah]

If you define true free-trade as trade without people being told guide prices then basically true free-trade is impossible to achieve. (and probably not necessary or desirable to achieve)

 

Before the grand exchange, most people did go off price guides. There was one stickied somewhere on the RS official forums (it was player run though) which was popular and I tended to use. - and some fan sites had them (I believe Rune HQ was the most used of these)

Thing is there was a certain amount of guess work with these and could often be based on the small handful of trades that the price guide writers could find evidence for. - at the end of the day the prices were chosen by a very small number of individuals. Often guide prices for items could stick just because the guide writers hadn't personally seen evidence of enough trades of an item to update their guides. (rather than because there was no actual fluctuations in supply and demand)

 

The grand exchange can take into acccount far more trades and therefore a guideprice derived from it should be more reflective of actual player trades than solutions that were in place before the grand exchange.