Third Bind Guide and/or Discussion.

[ghjkl]

Can you provide numerical proof that melee>fire surge on zombies/skeles?

[Sly_Wizard]

Your problem in bold and large font. As I've already mentioned, this guide is not intended for slackers. Everything has been tried and tested thoroughly.

 

You mean it's not intended for someone with common sense lol :rolleyes:. Why, oh why, would any melee'er ever bind a weapon they're going to use a minority of the time, especially when that weapon is not integral to using that form of combat? You'd be better off making yourself more effective at your primary form of combat and barehand casting wind surge than you would making yourself better at magic, which you're going to be using a minority of time, while not bettering your melee. That just doesn't make any sense.

 

EDIT: Just so we're on the same page, I assume you're 100+ with hood, melee weapon, and empowered fire staff?

 

Nope. Just your lowly 97 with hood and empowered staff :razz:

 

The major problem just seems to be that sly is unaware of effective dungeoneering tactics and is a typical 148 dungeoneer. This guide is not meant for sub-par dungeoneering. It's means for good and superb dungeoneering. Thus' date=' as CCS with fire surge is only best on around 40% of the monsters and emp fire on around 25%, your CCS will have to be the secondary combat style, and with that it's given that you'd be using around 50 spells per floor MAX(unless you have a mage boss).[/quote']

 

Hold the non-existent RS phone! If a CCS with fire surge is only best on around 40% of the monsters and an empowered fire staff on around 25% of the monsters, then I'm guessing that you think that melee is better on 60% - 75% of the monsters in Daemonheim, depending on the stave you're using to mage. But that begs the question, then, as to why someone who isn't using mage as their primary combat style would choose to be more effective on 40% of the monsters by binding a CCS than on 60% of the monsters by binding some primal gauntlets? Choosing to be effective on 40% of the monsters over 60% of the monsters wouldn't be very smart, now would it? No, it wouldn't.

 

Again, I would like to see any serious DG'er who has bound a CCS who wasn't using mage as their primary form of combat. I'd bet that neither you nor Ob have a CCS bound.

 

Magic is NOT a good primary combat style and thus should not be treated as such, much the same as hex.

 

Not true. You shouldn't use range as your primary combat style usually, but if you get a hex then it becomes quite viable as a form of primary combat. To claim that magic isn't a good primary combat style is just ignorant, to be honest.

 

It's extremely easy to gather around 600 elemental runes and 500 essence just from monster drops during the first 3-7 minutes of a dungeon...

 

That's an outright lie. I would love to see you pick up that many runes within the first 5 - 7 minutes of a dungeon. In fact, I'd like to follow you around in a dungeon as a test, and I'd guarantee you that within your first 10 rooms even if you killed every single monster that you wouldn't have picked up anywhere near that amount without some insane amount of luck.

 

...so assuming you can manage to get the runes effectively and only mage monsters that are actually weaker to mage than they are to melee(not zombies and skeletons, as some might think), a CCS will be head and shoulders above emp fire. Another thing about emp fire is that you can craft one losslessly ~5 minutes into a floor, thus it's somewhat of a lost bind slot.

 

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, that being that you can easily collect 600 elemental runes and 500 essence just from monster drops within the first >7 minutes of a dungeon. I've been using mage as my primary combat method for a while, and I can safely say that what you're saying is nowhere even close to true, and anyone who has ever maged for any significant time within Daemonheim can tell you this.

[Michael]

Not true. You shouldn't use range as your primary combat style usually, but if you get a hex then it becomes quite viable as a form of primary combat. To claim that magic isn't a good primary combat style is just ignorant, to be honest.

 

No it doesn't.

[Zaaps1]

I've have CCS+CSB bound twice now, and I can atest to a few of the things said here.

 

-It is extremely likely that a CCS user will simply stay on magic. I mean, why not, after all? On a plenty of monsters, magic is roughly just as good, if not better than melee, and on the monsters where magic is worse, your team will kill them, and if you're in an absolute jam, then switch over. Otherwise, if the room isn't crawling with mages/necros/books, there's really little reason to switch. Maybe I'm not quite human-robot-good as quickswitching my ring, weapon, and attack style, but most of the time I'm fairly certain that switching back to melee loses more DPS than I potentially could by staying on magic (again with the exception of places where magic clearly won't do).

 

-Runes are easy to come by. You can typically get 200-300 from the start table alone, along with about 30-50 ess on average from the start table (if you turn these all into fires, you get about another 100 or so fires). From there, you simply have to keep an eye open for ess drops, and gate the ht altar. The CCS'er should be the one who gates a door last (unless, of course, doing so would be too problematic) so the CCS'er can quickly craft fires from ess drops. Also don't forget that coin drops exist, and a pile of 20k basically leaves you set for the rest of the dungeon if you continue to pick up fire rune drops and took start table runes. 20k really isn't hard to come by in Dungeoneering. CCS'ers really should be picking up any coin drops they see, and within the first few rooms I often find myself with 20-30k+ from MONSTER drops alone.

 

Of course, communication is a big part of this. If you see a teammate with a CCS, then leave all ess drops ALONE (unless the CCS'er is also the keyer, in which case make fires for him/her) and kill mageables last, even if you have a CSB bound. I've seen this a lot. I'd go to kill a Primal Warrior with my CCS and a CSB'er starts killing it while the room is full with stuff like zombies and skeletons. CSB'ers typically like to make themselves useful and kill mageables first, but if there's a CCS on the team, you really should leave the CCS'er to it.

[Obtaurian]

I'm having a really hard time understanding how a level 97 dungeoneer using pure mage has any experience using any of the tactics described in the guide, let alone how he knows how to use a hex (though that's irrelevant, I suppose). Furthermore, I'm having a hard time understanding how so many of my clanmates can use a CCS effectively (read: can reach a level of effectiveness that surpasses an empowered fire staff), yet the level 97 dungeoneer (with pure mage who knows how to use a hex) claims it can't be done.

 

I mean, I'm all for debate, but this is a bit silly.

 

EDIT: Added a tiny note to the hexhunter section regarding longbow drops. Completely slipped my mind.

[xpx]

I'm having a really hard time understanding how a level 97 dungeoneer using pure mage has any experience using any of the tactics described in the guide, let alone how he knows how to use a hex (though that's irrelevant, I suppose). Furthermore, I'm having a hard time understanding how so many of my clanmates can use a CCS effectively (read: can reach a level of effectiveness that surpasses an empowered fire staff), yet the level 97 dungeoneer (with pure mage who knows how to use a hex) claims it can't be done.

 

I mean, I'm all for debate, but this is a bit silly.

I mean...this is a THIRD [bleep]ING BINDS guide and this guy is talking about pure maging... Guess what- your character is rubbish for dungeoneering and you being lazy about picking up runes/ess/coins is not an excuse. Magic, even with ccs and fire surges, is far less effective than melee with baxe/turm flashing on most high-lp low def monsters out there, and by not switching to the more effective style, you are leaving yourself vulnerable to running out of runes quick. As said in the guide, CCS is a niche bind(basically the mage eqvivalent of a hex) that you can't have many of in a dungeon, but will help the team significantly if used right, but at the same time, mage can't become your main attack style as then you run into problems with runes and accuracy. What sly is doing is using this guide strictly out of context.

 

Games, you know full well a baxe(the preferred weapon of good dungeoneering) is far superior on most monsters, not even considering the problems you will have maging everything. Switching back and forth should not be a problem, and it's recommended to switch as frequently as possible/needed in order to get good at it.

[ghjkl]

I don't know full well that baxe is superior. Provide some numbers to back up your statement.

[Obtaurian]

I don't know full well that baxe is superior. Provide some numbers to back up your statement.

 

Well, according to data Grimy has collected, it's possible that a primal battleaxe is definitively better than a prom 2h. However, it's my understanding that a consensus hasn't been reached, so nothing's been set in stone.

[ghjkl]

I'm talking about mage.

[Obtaurian]

I'm talking about mage.

 

Oh, you mean using fire surge on zombies/skeles with a CCS? Yeah, Grimy's DPS calcs show that with a t10 magic ring, fire surge is better than a primal 2h + turmoil. HOWEVER, because a battleaxe with turmoil is better on zombies/skeles than a 2h, I'm inclined to say that it's also better than magic. I'll ask Grimy about it.

 

EDIT: Okay, so a battleaxe without turmoil is worse, but a battleaxe with turmoil flashing is better. Courtesy of Grimy.

[xpx]

I'm talking about mage.

EDIT: Okay, so a battleaxe without turmoil is worse, but a battleaxe with turmoil flashing is better. Courtesy of Grimy.

And it doesn't require runes or charges and is more accurate due to no magic equipment(as most of mage accuracy comes from armor, while that's not at all the case for melee weaponry). Even if mage would have any advantage over melee over those monsters, losing CCS(and the 25% extra dps that you get from it over emp fire) will cancel that wholly.

[ghjkl]

Mage is definitely more accurate on zombies/skele than melee.

[Dr_Vermin]

Concerning maging: I've found using both leech def and leech mage to be important on certain monsters. Against high level fire giants and ghosts, using those prayers increases dps by a noticable amount. Most other magable monsters have low mage defence, so no need to leech against them.

 

Can someone who has experience doing dging with a team of 100+ dgers and no defensive binds tell me: how long does the average 5:5 c6 large floor take with a team like that?

[Obtaurian]

Concerning maging: I've found using both leech def and leech mage to be important on certain monsters. Against high level fire giants and ghosts, using those prayers increases dps by a noticable amount. Most other magable monsters have low mage defence, so no need to leech against them.

 

Can someone who has experience doing dging with a team of 100+ dgers and no defensive binds tell me: how long does the average 5:5 c6 large floor take with a team like that?

 

Speaking for DGS rank teams, about 20-25 with sub-20 here and there.

[Sir_Squab]

The major problem just seems to be that sly is unaware of effective dungeoneering tactics and is a typical 148 dungeoneer. This guide is not meant for sub-par dungeoneering. It's means for good and superb dungeoneering. Thus, as CCS with fire surge is only best on around 40% of the monsters and emp fire on around 25%, your CCS will have to be the secondary combat style, and with that it's given that you'd be using around 50 spells per floor MAX(unless you have a mage boss). Magic is NOT a good primary combat style and thus should not be treated as such, much the same as hex. It's extremely easy to gather around 600 elemental runes and 500 essence just from monster drops during the first 3-7 minutes of a dungeon, so assuming you can manage to get the runes effectively and only mage monsters that are actually weaker to mage than they are to melee(not zombies and skeletons, as some might think), a CCS will be head and shoulders above emp fire. Another thing about emp fire is that you can craft one losslessly ~5 minutes into a floor, thus it's somewhat of a lost bind slot.

 

Rawr. That's if you can find wood that you can cut/fletch. I need higher fletching... Not enough corpsethorn in a lot of dungeons -.-

[No_one_cares]

Can someone who has experience doing dging with a team of 100+ dgers and no defensive binds tell me: how long does the average 5:5 c6 large floor take with a team like that?

 

20-25 minutes.

 

Also again the blood neck only works on monsters in combat. I have personally tested this and so has green rect.

[ghjkl]

I average 20 to 25 with all plates or people under 100 dung as long as they are good.

[Obtaurian]

I average 20 to 25 with all plates or people under 100 dung as long as they are good.

 

^ Yeah, third binds help, but it's going to be the competency of the team that nets a fast floor.

[SirIzenhime]

Mage is definitely more accurate on zombies/skele than melee.

 

It's barely more accurate on zombies, considering their near non-existent slash defense. Being more accurate doesn't mean better DPS. B axe has better DPS on zombies.

Agree with skeletons (melee ones only though), when they're level 120+

[DyingSilent]

I love discussing DPS with people that only use mage (no melee bind). What happens when you're in an Abandoned/Warped, and a pickaxe is smacking you in the head? Also, if you don't do the logout trick to refill CSB, what do you do when you're out of casts? Inb4StaffBash.

 

OT: Plate binds suck. Only person that should have a plate is Vex, because he is the original Platebeard.

Imo, Hex > Neck > Gaunts > CCS > Rapier. Just because the general public has downs when it comes to using multiple weapons efficiently. Obviously Hex is an exception.

 

Plate isn't even on my list. If you rely on a plate to live, you're doing it wrong. 1, Sacrifice. 2, Kite/Sidestep/Lure. 3, SS flash. All 3 are some of the best skills you need to learn in Dungeoneering.

[xpx]

Plate isn't even on my list. If you rely on a plate to live, you're doing it wrong. 1, Sacrifice. 2, Kite/Sidestep/Lure. 3, SS flash. All 3 are some of the best skills you need to learn in Dungeoneering.

And it took 20 minutes of hardcore persuasion to get this guy to break plate for neck, after which he died miserably for the first few minutes and dungeons :smile: I believe a plate can be used well, but in reality, few bother- plate should never be used as means to be lazy, but that's what it more than likely boils down to. If you dps and have a plate bind, you should basically never need any food, but from my experience, platebeards take just as much food as anyone else(apart from the original platebeard <3: ).

[ghjkl]

How can you not use food when you are keying, you are rarely in gds, you rarely get a chance to soul split, and shades rape you in every room?

What is the point of binding offensive binds when you are rarely in a gd?

The places you need plate the most are puzzle rooms like rc tiles or statues, where you need to tank a large amount of monsters for an extended period of time.

More than once have I seen a keyer rely on his team to tank for him during those rooms without being able to solo due to a lack of plate.

But of course you guys assume a perfect team that teles immediately when you say so and will clear random [cabbage] in those rooms instead of doing gds just so you can complete the puzzle.

[Sly_Wizard]

I'm having a really hard time understanding how a level 97 dungeoneer using pure mage has any experience using any of the tactics described in the guide, let alone how he knows how to use a hex (though that's irrelevant, I suppose). Furthermore, I'm having a hard time understanding how so many of my clanmates can use a CCS effectively (read: can reach a level of effectiveness that surpasses an empowered fire staff), yet the level 97 dungeoneer (with pure mage who knows how to use a hex) claims it can't be done.

 

I mean, I'm all for debate, but this is a bit silly.

 

EDIT: Added a tiny note to the hexhunter section regarding longbow drops. Completely slipped my mind.

 

:rolleyes: @ this post

 

Let's start over, shall we?

 

Your "tactics", as it relates to maging, are hogwash. I don't need to have a third bind to realize that what you suggest is sup-optimal to the extreme. I've asked two or three times now for anyone to show me someone who uses melee as their primary form of combat who has binded a CCS, and every time neither you nor xpx have shows me such an individual. I wonder why?

 

Again, no one in their right mind is going to bind a CCS when they're mostly using melee-- especially if, as xpx asserts, mage isn't as good as melee on the majority of monsters. If anything, they'd just bind some primal guantlets and be more effective one more monsters than they otherwise would be if they just binded a CCS. That's not hard to understand (or so you'd think).

 

Here's a question for you; if a CCS is so good, did you bind one?

[Quyneax]

He has a hexhunter bow lol, which is slightly better than a ccs :rolleyes:.

 

CCS is good if you have only one in a team, as such we don't have very many of them around. But I think The Bemis was/is very good with the staff.

 

And how on Gielinor do you manage to turn 'boost you won't be using more than half the time' to 'worse boost'? It's pretty obvious that the ccs is a much larger boost to your magic power than gaunts are to a 2h (which you would probably replace with a battleaxe at that point). I think rapier + 2h is around as good as axe + gaunts.

[Obtaurian]

I'm having a really hard time understanding how a level 97 dungeoneer using pure mage has any experience using any of the tactics described in the guide, let alone how he knows how to use a hex (though that's irrelevant, I suppose). Furthermore, I'm having a hard time understanding how so many of my clanmates can use a CCS effectively (read: can reach a level of effectiveness that surpasses an empowered fire staff), yet the level 97 dungeoneer (with pure mage who knows how to use a hex) claims it can't be done.

 

I mean, I'm all for debate, but this is a bit silly.

 

EDIT: Added a tiny note to the hexhunter section regarding longbow drops. Completely slipped my mind.

 

:rolleyes: @ this post

 

Let's start over, shall we?

 

Your "tactics", as it relates to maging, are hogwash. I don't need to have a third bind to realize that what you suggest is sup-optimal to the extreme. I've asked two or three times now for anyone to show me someone who uses melee as their primary form of combat who has binded a CCS, and every time neither you nor xpx have shows me such an individual. I wonder why?

 

Again, no one in their right mind is going to bind a CCS when they're mostly using melee-- especially if, as xpx asserts, mage isn't as good as melee on the majority of monsters. If anything, they'd just bind some primal guantlets and be more effective one more monsters than they otherwise would be if they just binded a CCS. That's not hard to understand (or so you'd think).

 

Here's a question for you; if a CCS is so good, did you bind one?

 

Sorry, but once again your speculative conjecture doesn't really hold a candle to real testing (which we've done to the extreme). I know this must be hard for you to wrap your mind around, but the nature of this forum requires that you have some semblance of data or evidence to back your claims, and one only needs to look at your dungeoneering level to see that you don't have it.

 

I'll answer two harmless questions for you, though, as they digress from your argument anyway:

 

How many people have melee binds + CCS? In my dungeoneering clan, I believe three people currently have CCS binds. Another person - The Bemis - just got a blood necklace after using a CCS for about ~20m exp; he contributed extensively to this guide.

 

Have I ever bound a CCS? I did once, just after 100 dungeoneering. Unfortunately I only had it for one floor when I found a blood necklace the very next, and I only had that for a week before I got my hexhunter, which I've now had for around ~56m exp.