Israel vs Palestine

[Nomrombom]

I would have rather a person who knows about a subject create a topic on it for a legitimate purpose.

 

The purpose is to debate, I don't see how the fact that he is not familiar with the situation prevents the rest from doing so.

 

This

[Giordano]

I thought the purpose was to different the Nazis from the non-Nazis?

 

 

Haha, just making a light-hearted post. :shades:

[ISREAL63]

hey man I'm going to have to bulldoze your house, turns out my ancestors lived in the area a few thousand years ago.

 

All kidding aside, I really think this is an issue of young Israelites and Palestinians growing up being taught that the other party is evil.

 

I see you don't know the facts the only time Israel i bulldoze house is when. 1. Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs labs, headquarters, and offices, 2. Destroying a house of a terrorist after committing a act of terror. Israel has a right to defend itself and this follow under that category. If Israel didn't make a price for killing innocent civilians there would be many more attacks. When it comes down to it, it is the terrorist choice to kill innocent people and have his house destroyed or to be human and not to kill.

 

 

I've really enjoyed reading the back and forth, but wasn't the reason Israel targeted schools and hospitals because Hezbollah was storing their weapons there?

I saw Maen Rashid Areikat on Special Report with Bret Baier the other day and he seems pretty moderate and peace-seeking, despite how the PLO is generally portrayed.

 

You are 100% correct and they won't let that peace of truth come out. Hezbollah built its headquarters right in the most populated area of the city. They use schools, playgrounds and hospitals to hide and fire rockets at Israel, this doesn't leave israel much choice. Even though israel has to fight under this conditions it still has to take down the terrorist.

 

This

 

Why can't you just stay on topic you have posted before in the topic but you have never said anything constructive only attack Mine and The Gabe's creditability.

[Nifflin]

Hezbollah is a political party, please keep that in mind. Though they are militant and use guerrilla tactics they are still primarily a political party. That means that not ever Hezbollah member is even a militant. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. The same goes for many militant organizations in the Middle East. They are political movements first and militant second.

 

So yes, it makes sense for them to build their headquarters in the middle of a city. Israelis just have no regard for collateral damage as the link I posted shows. Even Americans with our poor track record do not cause that amount of carnage.

 

And I KNOW for a fact that Israel has bulldozed civilan houses. Here is a Wikipedia link about it. The article is heavily cited and accurate, I suggest you read it Isreal63. It is a good summery, the UN reports on Israeli humanitarian violations are long and a bit boring. If you insist I can start citing them though.

 

Israel63, I'm curious, where are you from? What makes you an 'expert' on this topic?

[Jaffy1]

Im all for Jews having a home in Palatine with no regard to the Palestinians with support from the US if the United States were to give up 99% of its land to the Native Americans and have the rest of the americans here be moved to mini-concentration camps.

 

After all if the Jews deserve the land cause they lived there 1000's of years ago so do the Native Americans deserve America.

 

What's done in the past, is done.

You cannot undo it, however to address your point, I would say that the way native Americans have been treated is utterly shameful (this being in the 20th century and whatnot). Yes, they do deserve part of the land, but since many others now also live there it should be shared. This does not mean that putting natives at a disadvantage is justified.

 

To get back on topic, Nifflin does indeed appear prejudiced, and The Gabe seems like a reasonable individual to me. I'm not going to comment on isreal63.

 

Anyway, as The Gabe stated, both sides have committed atrocities. In their violence, neither are justified. You can't just simply assume one side is at fault, because accept it or not, it takes two to tango.

 

Nifflin, the notion of wanting to remove the Jews from Israel and into Siberia is as ridiculous as I would be to claim all non-native Americans should be shoved into the Atlantic for their crimes against the native people and their taking of the natives' land. I understand your sympathies for the Palistinians, and am not denying unjustice has been done to them, but you're completely ignoring the other side of things. You are personally involved in this conflict, and I believe that, therefore, you are incapable of keeping an objective opinion on the matter. No offence.

 

Finally I'd just like to note that, since you said Jews live peacefully in other islamic countries (like Egypt), non-islamic people in such countries are not treated equally to muslims. With your belief in human rights, I would think that you'd know this, and disapprove.

[i_love_burritos]

I might be wrong in assuming this but feel free to correct me.

 

If we went back to 1967 borders and Israel stopped building settlements, and THEN Palestine along with HAMAS said to Israel "yo, bro, we want some peace", I'm quite sure Israel would be like "fo shizzle homie". But if Israel said "yo, bro we want some peace" then Palestine and HAMAS would be like "[bleep] you [racist term]".

 

I don't know, that's just me.

[Jaffy1]

You are personally involved in this conflict, and I believe that, therefore, you are incapable of keeping an objective opinion on the matter. No offence.

 

Non taken I made no attempt to be objective, I made up my mind that the Palestinians deserve the land as much as the Jews. Since neither side will consent to the either having the land they will be at war till the end of time. The example was just meant to say hey wait a minute maybe the Palestinians have reason to be mad

 

Actually, most of that post was directed at Nifflin. Guess I could have made that clearer. ;)

In essence, I agree with you in that they both have legit claims to the land.

[Nifflin]

Hey Jaffy,

 

I gave Siberia as an example of a place where no people would be displaced. I know it's extreme. I feel the morally best solution would be relocation of the Israelis, however the most realistic would be a two state solution.

 

As for non-Muslims living in Muslim majority countries, I've been a Christian in Jordan for the past three years. Religion is simply not a factor people take into serious consideration here. Same goes for North Africa and the rest of the Middle East. You won't get turned down for a serious job based on religion. Nobody will treat you badly. The only place where it might be an issue is the gulf.

 

People want peace first, they are more concerned with having democracy, stability and equality then religions persecution. One of the biggest youth movements in Egypt and Jordan is one for toleration of religion, I attended a few of their rallies and they are really something positive. The whole goal is political unity. Because before the different religious factions were divided and politicians would use the to their advantage. Mubarak was notorious for this sort of tactic. The new reformers want unity of religions and to use that to improve everybody's lives.

 

If we contrast this to Israel, which is exclusively Jewish. Having gone there as a Christian people place blame on you for the holocaust, my father has gotten insults because he looks Palestinian. It's a different vibe, it's a different mindset.

 

Before coming to the Middle East I was very pro-Israel. I thought they were a strong and good ally to America. After coming here I realized how much the American media, controlled largely by people who support Israel, misconstrue the facts. It's hard to explain because you need to experience it to understand what is going on over here.

[ISREAL63]

Hezbollah is a political party, please keep that in mind. Though they are militant and use guerrilla tactics they are still primarily a political party. That means that not ever Hezbollah member is even a militant. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. The same goes for many militant organizations in the Middle East. They are political movements first and militant second.

So yes, it makes sense for them to build their headquarters in the middle of a city. Israelis just have no regard for collateral damage as the link I posted shows. Even Americans with our poor track record do not cause that amount of carnage.

 

You are wrong a strait out lie here is a link to the Usa's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Hezbollah is on that list so is Hamas, Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon but just because it is part of government doesn't mean its not a terrorist organization. You can't say that some can be terrorist in the organization and some can't be. Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon war, by the way don't say Israel started Hezbollah did by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. After proving that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with the goal to destroy Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself so yes it is allowed to bomb the headquarters of a terrorist organization even if the built it in the city so if Israel were to attack it there would be civilian deaths. That wasn't Israel fault it is Hezbollah fault. By the when you bring up America they started the war against a country not a terrorist organization after the took control they had to fight the terrorist but when they invaded they were fighting a army that had on uniforms not civilian clothes like Hezbollah the terrorist organization

 

 

And I KNOW for a fact that Israel has bulldozed civilan houses. Here is a Wikipedia link about it. The article is heavily cited and accurate, I suggest you read it Isreal63. It is a good summery, the UN reports on Israeli humanitarian violations are long and a bit boring. If you insist I can start citing them though.

 

I have read that is were i got my original cause to destroy homes. here i will quote for you it

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

* Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

* Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs Laboratory, headquarters, and offices

* Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

* Self-defense, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled Israel's top court approves razing Palestinian homes

* Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armored personnel carriers

 

Is there any problems with them please tell me

 

 

I gave Siberia as an example of a place where no people would be displaced. I know it's extreme. I feel the morally best solution would be relocation of the Israelis, however the most realistic would be a two state solution.

 

That seems real realistic, where did you get that idea? it sound like you need a map to find where Siberia really is

[Nifflin]

I get very tired of responding to you, but I figure it's a good demonstration to all the people here to do so. Like 1,400 views of this thread so far? If my posts manage to shift the viewpoint of even one person then it's worth it.

 

So where shall I start...

 

Hezbollah is a political party, please keep that in mind. Though they are militant and use guerrilla tactics they are still primarily a political party. That means that not ever Hezbollah member is even a militant. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. The same goes for many militant organizations in the Middle East. They are political movements first and militant second. So yes, it makes sense for them to build their headquarters in the middle of a city. Israelis just have no regard for collateral damage as the link I posted shows. Even Americans with our poor track record do not cause that amount of carnage.

 

You are wrong a strait out lie here is a link to the Usa's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Hezbollah is on that list so is Hamas, Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon but just because it is part of government doesn't mean its not a terrorist organization. You can't say that some can be terrorist in the organization and some can't be. Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon war, by the way don't say Israel started Hezbollah did by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. After proving that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with the goal to destroy Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself so yes it is allowed to bomb the headquarters of a terrorist organization even if the built it in the city so if Israel were to attack it there would be civilian deaths. That wasn't Israel fault it is Hezbollah fault. By the when you bring up America they started the war against a country not a terrorist organization after the took control they had to fight the terrorist but when they invaded they were fighting a army that had on uniforms not civilian clothes like Hezbollah the terrorist organization

 

I never claimed that they weren't officially declared a terrorist group. My point is that fighting Hezbollah is a bit of a bogus reason to target civilian areas. Hezbollah are not only a militant group. They also fund schools, hospitals, mosques, they run a judicial system. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. It's the same as any other political party only with a militant agenda.

 

I never said that they didn't start the 2006 war. I did however claim that the Israeli response was disproportionate to the Lebanese aggression. You have offered no counter to this.

 

Lebanon killed three Israeli soldiers and captured two. During the resulting conflict 1,200 Lebanese were killed and 160 Israelis were killed. Most Lebanese were civilians. Here is a link showing hundreds of cases of Israeli government agression towards civilians. I warn you, some of the stuff on that link is pretty graphic. Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targeted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous accuracy. This is the Israeli government which allows and condones these types of actions.

 

I strongly believe that this type of disproportionate aggression is morally wrong. More children were killed in the war then "terrorists," there is no way to justify that.

 

You also argue with my assertions considering house demolitions. I have several rebuttals to this.

 

The use of house demolition under international law is today governed by the Fourth Geneva Convention, enacted in 1949, which protects non-combatants in occupied territories. Article 53 provides that "Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons ... is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations." Thus this shows that Israel is violating the Geneva conventions and international law through the destruction of homes.

 

Furthermore, many Israelis have condemned the demolition of Palestinian homes. Israeli historian Yaacov Lozowick has stated "Demolishing the homes of civilians merely because a family member has committed a crime is immoral." This shows how even the Israelis themselves, or reasonable ones, often times find the actions immoral.

 

In fact, even the Israeli government is starting to recognize how detrimental this policy is. On 17 February 2005, Shaul Mofaz, the former Israeli Minister of Defence, approved the recommendation of a military committee to end punitive demolitions of Palestinian houses. Moshe Yaalon, former IDF Chief of Staff, asked the committee to examine whether the practice accomplished its stated goal of deterring Palestinian involvement in attacks on Israelis. The committee found no proof of effective deterrence and concluded that the damage caused by the demolitions overrides its effectiveness. The conclusion was based on the understanding that the demolitions generate resistance within the Palestinian society towards Israel. Since the reasoning given by the Ministry for stopping the policy did not rely on international law, it opened the door for its reintroduction, as warned by the Ministry, in the event of an extreme change in circumstances. This has allowed the demolishing to continue even after it was shown by Israeli research to be detrimental.

 

So this shows that while the Israeli establishment doesn't admit to breaking international law, a good portion of it understand that the destruction of homes is detrimental. However, intentional organizations such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the Red Cross agree that it is in fact against international law as it breaks the Geneva conventions.

 

So my problem with your 'justification' is that it still violates the human rights of the Palestinians and international law.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Im all for Jews having a home in Palatine with no regard to the Palestinians with support from the US if the United States were to give up 99% of its land to the Native Americans and have the rest of the americans here be moved to mini-concentration camps.

You want to give them Rome now, too?

[Ginger_Warrior]

You do realise that something being a terrorist organisation doesn't stop it from being part of a political party or movement, don't you?

 

Sinn Fein and the IRA (the old IRA, not the modern organisation of the same name) spring to mind.

 

There's nothing undemocratic about electing terrorists into office. In fact, denying such political freedom would be exactly the opposite of democracy.

[Nifflin]

You do realise that something being a terrorist organisation doesn't stop it from being part of a political party or movement, don't you?

 

Sinn Fein and the IRA (the old IRA, not the modern organisation of the same name) spring to mind.

 

There's nothing undemocratic about electing terrorists into office. In fact, denying such political freedom would be exactly the opposite of democracy.

 

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Thanks for the great example.

 

Edit: Can't wait for his next response. ;)

[ISREAL63]

You are wrong a strait out lie here is a link to the Usa's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Hezbollah is on that list so is Hamas, Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon but just because it is part of government doesn't mean its not a terrorist organization. You can't say that some can be terrorist in the organization and some can't be. Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon war, by the way don't say Israel started Hezbollah did by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. After proving that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with the goal to destroy Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself so yes it is allowed to bomb the headquarters of a terrorist organization even if the built it in the city so if Israel were to attack it there would be civilian deaths. That wasn't Israel fault it is Hezbollah fault. By the when you bring up America they started the war against a country not a terrorist organization after the took control they had to fight the terrorist but when they invaded they were fighting a army that had on uniforms not civilian clothes like Hezbollah the terrorist organization

 

I never claimed that they weren't officially declared a terrorist group. My point is that fighting Hezbollah is a bit of a bogus reason to target civilian areas. Hezbollah are not only a militant group. They also fund schools, hospitals, mosques, they run a judicial system. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. It's the same as any other political party only with a militant agenda.

 

Fighting Hezbollah in a civilian area is wrong agree but just because terrorist hide behind civilians doesn't mean that Israel can't attack and kill the terrorist. Israel has a right to defend itself even if a terrorist is hiding in a civilian areas, it wasn't Israel who chose the battleground it was the terrorist organization called Hezbollah . It is a terrorist organization with a political agenda to destroy Israel.

 

 

You also argue with my assertions considering house demolitions. I have several rebuttals to this.

 

The use of house demolition under international law is today governed by the Fourth Geneva Convention, enacted in 1949, which protects non-combatants in occupied territories. Article 53 provides that "Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons ... is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations." Thus this shows that Israel is violating the Geneva conventions and international law through the destruction of homes.

I will repeat this quote and explain

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

* Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

* Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs Laboratory, headquarters, and offices

* Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

* Self-defense, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled Israel's top court approves razing Palestinian homes

* Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armored personnel carriers

 

1. Deterrence this is pretty simple don't commit a terrorist attack and if you do i was your choice and poor one for that you have to pay the price. So the solution to it is don't commit acts of terror.

2,3,4 and 5 Counter-terrorism, Self-defense and Forcing out- fall under what you said necessary for military operations.Meaning don't build weapons in your house or use it as base of operations. Don't hide in a house and if you do it was your choice not the solders. Self defense does this need explaing? Necessary for military operations.

 

You want to give them Rome now, too?

 

Rome, Israel what do they have to do with one another?

[fakeitormakeit2]

Rome, Israel what do they have to do with one another?

I guess you don't have a sense of humor or history [double implication on the last attribute] because I quoted someone who said I'm all for Jews having a home in PALATINE (instead of Palestine), i.e. the center hill of Rome.

[obfuscator]

He was making a bad joke in regards to Ring_world's inadvertent typo reference to a roman ....emperor?

 

EDIT: Or hill :P

[Nifflin]

You are wrong a strait out lie here is a link to the Usa's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Hezbollah is on that list so is Hamas, Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon but just because it is part of government doesn't mean its not a terrorist organization. You can't say that some can be terrorist in the organization and some can't be. Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon war, by the way don't say Israel started Hezbollah did by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. After proving that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with the goal to destroy Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself so yes it is allowed to bomb the headquarters of a terrorist organization even if the built it in the city so if Israel were to attack it there would be civilian deaths. That wasn't Israel fault it is Hezbollah fault. By the when you bring up America they started the war against a country not a terrorist organization after the took control they had to fight the terrorist but when they invaded they were fighting a army that had on uniforms not civilian clothes like Hezbollah the terrorist organization

 

I never claimed that they weren't officially declared a terrorist group. My point is that fighting Hezbollah is a bit of a bogus reason to target civilian areas. Hezbollah are not only a militant group. They also fund schools, hospitals, mosques, they run a judicial system. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. It's the same as any other political party only with a militant agenda.

 

Fighting Hezbollah in a civilian area is wrong agree but just because terrorist hide behind civilians doesn't mean that Israel can't attack and kill the terrorist. Israel has a right to defend itself even if a terrorist is hiding in a civilian areas, it wasn't Israel who chose the battleground it was the terrorist organization called Hezbollah . It is a terrorist organization with a political agenda to destroy Israel.

 

The fact that Hezbollah is a political party means of course they are going to be based in populated areas. It's not really an excuse. They are near civilians because they need to be to preform their primary role as a political organization. Like I said before, Hezbollah builds hospitals and schools for the Lebanese. Israel has a right to defend itself but not to kill innocent civilians.

 

And while we are on the topic of human shields, there are many stories about Iaraeli use of human sheilds. Here is one such story.

 

From the article...

 

Basem Maswadeh knew he was in trouble when an Israeli soldier pushed him into the barber's chair and reached for the clippers.

The humiliation of a shaved head - or, more accurately, having chunks of hair ripped out by the brutal wielding of the shears - was the start of an ordeal that culminated with Mr Maswadeh and two friends standing in a Hebron street as Israeli troops shot over their shoulders at stone-throwing Palestinians.

 

"The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward," said Mr Maswadeh. "Then they put their guns on our shoulders and began shooting. We felt our eardrums burning, but when we tried to put our hands over our ears, they beat our hands away. The noise was terrible because the gun was right next to my ear."

 

The soldiers fired dozens of plastic bullets, using the three Palestinian men as shields, before the crowd dispersed.

 

This is not an isolated incident, I can provide more examples if you want.

 

Also, you still didn't refute any of what I said concerning house demolishing being against international law. Especially the quotes by Israelis themselves saying it is detrimental.

[ISREAL63]

You are wrong a strait out lie here is a link to the Usa's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Hezbollah is on that list so is Hamas, Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon but just because it is part of government doesn't mean its not a terrorist organization. You can't say that some can be terrorist in the organization and some can't be. Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon war, by the way don't say Israel started Hezbollah did by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. After proving that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with the goal to destroy Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself so yes it is allowed to bomb the headquarters of a terrorist organization even if the built it in the city so if Israel were to attack it there would be civilian deaths. That wasn't Israel fault it is Hezbollah fault. By the when you bring up America they started the war against a country not a terrorist organization after the took control they had to fight the terrorist but when they invaded they were fighting a army that had on uniforms not civilian clothes like Hezbollah the terrorist organization

 

The fact that Hezbollah is a political party means of course they are going to be based in populated areas. It's not really an excuse. They are near civilians because they need to be to preform their primary role as a political organization. Like I said before, Hezbollah builds hospitals and schools for the Lebanese. Israel has a right to defend itself but not to kill innocent civilians.

 

Israel attacked Hezbollah terrorist headquarters Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. Yet Hezbollah still built its military (terrorist) headquarters in civilian areas. It wasnt Israel choice where Hezbollah would built its terrorist headquarters. You are right Hezbollah has built building for public use but the doesn't make it up for For being a terrorist organization.

 

And while we are on the topic of human shields. Lets not be bias and show what the true terrorist organization does here is a link to Hezbollah using Human shields which resulted in the deaths of 56 civilians

 

Here is a video of what israel did to prevent non combatants from being killed, in operation cast lead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQQFJXMrg4&feature=related

 

 

Also, you still didn't refute any of what I said concerning house demolishing being against international law. Especially the quotes by Israelis themselves saying it is detrimental.

 

I gave you the 5 reason for Israel destroying homes why don't you tell me what is the problem with them instead of saying that it is not important

 

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

* Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

* Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs Laboratory, headquarters, and offices

* Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

* Self-defense, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled Israel's top court approves razing Palestinian homes

* Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armored personnel carriers

 

 

1. Deterrence this is pretty simple don't commit a terrorist attack and if you do i was your choice and poor one for that you have to pay the price. So the solution to it is don't commit acts of terror.

2,3,4 and 5 Counter-terrorism, Self-defense and Forcing out- fall under what you said necessary for military operations.Meaning don't build weapons in your house or use it as base of operations. Don't hide in a house and if you do it was your choice not the solders. Self defense does this need explaing? Necessary for military operations.

[The_Gabe]

I never claimed that they weren't officially declared a terrorist group. My point is that fighting Hezbollah is a bit of a bogus reason to target civilian areas.

 

Civilians are going to get hurt. If the Hezbollah hides behind citizens, and the citizens let them, then it's inevitable. You're talking like this is the only war in which citizens get hurt. Guess what? Every war and conflict has civilian casualties.

 

Hezbollah are not only a militant group. They also fund schools, hospitals, mosques, they run a judicial system. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. It's the same as any other political party only with a militant agenda.

 

Yeah, and then they hide weapons in them.

 

And while we are on the topic of human shields, there are many stories about Iaraeli use of human sheilds. Here is one such story

 

Once again, the Hezbollah are not innocent. Here's a quotation from an article which can some up my views about it.

 

In the four years since then, Hezbollah has pursued a tactic of moving their weapons into civilian villages, essentially institutionalising the tactic of using human shields on a large scale, the military said. Source: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=/data/middleeast/2010/July/middleeast_July126.xml&section=middleeast

 

No side is innocent. I'll finish up the rest later; I have to go for now.

[krimi]

I like how the title uses versus. Is it any indication of what will ultimately happen?

[das]

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

* Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

* Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs Laboratory, headquarters, and offices

* Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

* Self-defense, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled Israel's top court approves razing Palestinian homes

* Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armored personnel carriers

 

 

Is there any problems with them please tell me

 

I'm sorry but if that happened here in America, where "big brother" bulldozed homes for "reasons" "good for me" i'd be dead or jailed for shooting the guy driving the bulldozer and whoever else cared he died.

 

i'm sorry, but whats the justification for that playground in the youtube video? a hideout? engineering? can't drive around?

 

If you think every house is destroyed with purpose for a greater good you may be the most blind, overzealous and downright scary patriot of any country period.

 

 

Guess what? Every war and conflict has civilian casualties.

 

Yes, it happened in every major war, the problem is - and i'm sure an intellectual like yourself will realize is that your "war" is mostly guerrilla warfare. It's easy to spot a Me Lei massacre in Vietnam - it's a hell of a lot harder to spot legit soldier kills in your "war". Warfare today is messy and social media has made mess up's harder to hide from.

 

According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian to soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death. It's only rising as warefare changes. So

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/world/middleeast/23casualties.html?_r=2

[Nifflin]

I'm busy right now so I'll just reply to the video Gabe posted. It's propaganda, I checked the profile of the person who posted it. Here is a quote from his profile on youtube;

 

"So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our defeats until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

 

You thought Iranians denying the holocaust and the existence of Israel are stupid? Meet the Israeli who denies the existence of the Palestinian people.

 

I can't take this video seriously because I have no idea who made it, what their credentials are to say the types of things they said, or really anything that shows that the video is valid. I said before ignorance and blindness are the plagues of the Middle East. I think the person who uploaded the video and the video itself are very good examples of using a few minutes to categorize millions of people.

 

I'll reply to the rest later, Das beat me to some of it.

[ISREAL63]

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

* Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

* Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs Laboratory, headquarters, and offices

* Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

* Self-defense, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled Israel's top court approves razing Palestinian homes

* Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armored personnel carriers

 

With these 5 reason are there any problems?

 

I'm sorry but if that happened here in America, where "big brother" bulldozed homes for "reasons" "good for me" i'd be dead or jailed for shooting the guy driving the bulldozer and whoever else cared he died.

i'm sorry, but whats the justification for that playground in the youtube video? a hideout? engineering? can't drive around?

If you think every house is destroyed with purpose for a greater good you may be the most blind, overzealous and downright scary patriot of any country period.

 

First off i don't know who tape the video and i don't know the background on it so i can't comment on what i don't know. You are right there probably are houses that were destroyed for no reason but most are for a good reason no system is perfect especially when it come to terrorism.

 

Guess what? Every war and conflict has civilian casualties.

 

Yes, it happened in every major war, the problem is - and i'm sure an intellectual like yourself will realize is that your "war" is mostly guerrilla warfare. It's easy to spot a Me Lei massacre in Vietnam - it's a hell of a lot harder to spot legit soldier kills in your "war". Warfare today is messy and social media has made mess up's harder to hide from.

 

According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian to soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death. It's only rising as warefare changes. So

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/world/middleeast/23casualties.html?_r=2

 

You are 100% correct and there is little to do to stop it 10:1 ratio is very bad. In Operation cast lead Israel went out of its ways dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel broke this 10:1 ratio and achieved a ration of 1:1.5 meaning for ever civilian that died 1.5 terrorist were killed.

[das]

terrorism is a loosely defined word.

 

The Americans terrorized the British empire.

[Nifflin]

The Zionists terrorized the British to get them to sign the Balfour declaration. One of the most notable terrorist acts committed by the Zionists was the King David Hotel bombing. Of course Zionists prefer to talk about the holocaust rather then their history as terrorists.

 

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

* Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

* Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs Laboratory, headquarters, and offices

* Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

* Self-defense, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled Israel's top court approves razing Palestinian homes

* Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armored personnel carriers

 

With these 5 reason are there any problems?

 

Well the issue is that whatever the IDF uses to justify house demolition, it remains that they demolish homes for reasons not cited there and that is a violation of international law.