Actually, you selling the gold doesn't mean the gold is ever bought. It could just sit there on a mule account until the servers are shut down. That's the point; selling gold does not negatively impact the game.

Now you're just arguing semantics.

 

Well it's an important distinction to make, which determines whether or not people selling gold have contributed to the mess that is modern RS.

 

E: Which is a nope.

Just because those who sold gold have the ability to be replaced by bots does not mean that those who still sell gold aren't part of the destructive cycle that RWT creates.

Just because those who sold gold have the ability to be replaced by bots does not mean that those who still sell gold aren't part of the destructive cycle that RWT creates.

 

Even when the wealthiest players sell gold, they're only a drop in the ocean compared to the tens of thousands of bots farming resources 24/7.

 

It's a balancing act. Obviously RWT is against the rules, so someone thinking about selling gold would have to think about the risk of getting banned, and the negligible impact it would have on the game. And balance that against benefits selling gold would bring to their real lives - which I'm sure most people here would agree is more important.

 

I'm not saying RWT isn't against the rules, that'd be silly. Equally as silly would be suggesting we follow the rules blindly without thinking about them, especially when the people who make the rules seem to have a more "they're more like guidelines" attitude.

I guess I'm the only one who views RWT as mostly hurting game creators rather than in-game environment. Well, it does that too. But when you sell gold you're basically making money off somebody's else work. If I worked hard to create a game I would be pissed if a bunch of punks started exploiting a grey area in the law to leech money for themselves. In the real world in other areas (music, film, books, etc) people who do stuff like that get prosecuted.

Even when the wealthiest players sell gold, they're only a drop in the ocean compared to the tens of thousands of bots farming resources 24/7.

 

If you're comparing them now in how they contribute then surely you're doing so accepting the fact that they are both contributing to that cycle, otherwise you'd be comparing two things that aren't similar.

 

And balance that against benefits selling gold would bring to their real lives - which I'm sure most people here would agree is more important.

 

In this we are discussing only those who sell gold, not their intentions or reasons. I think we've switched tracks ever since Stev put it to the thread's discussion group whether or not selling gold negatively impacts the community. If this caused a misunderstanding I apologize. :)

 

 

Equally as silly would be suggesting we follow the rules blindly without thinking about them, especially when the people who make the rules seem to have a more "they're more like guidelines" attitude.

 

Thinking and discussing them is a great, but it has no bearing on the conclusion we come to here when this thread is through because these guidelines are completely out of our hands as is their enforcement, whereas buying and selling is an individual's choice.

 

I guess I'm the only one who views RWT as mostly hurting game creators rather than in-game environment.

 

RWTing hurts devs when they have to waste resources or take drastic measures to "stop the bleeding" which in turn hurts the community, which is really why most of us care so strongly about these issues.

It's a balancing act. Obviously RWT is against the rules, so someone thinking about selling gold would have to think about the risk of getting banned, and the negligible impact it would have on the game. And balance that against benefits selling gold would bring to their real lives - which I'm sure most people here would agree is more important.

 

I'm not saying RWT isn't against the rules, that'd be silly. Equally as silly would be suggesting we follow the rules blindly without thinking about them, especially when the people who make the rules seem to have a more "they're more like guidelines" attitude.

So it comes back to "They don't follow the rules, so I don't have to". That attitude harms the game regardless of whether or not the actual selling of gold does. A lot of the game's problems come down to large groups of players ignoring the rules for personal benefit (Scamming, botting, and RWT), and it led to the community developing a culture where that behavior is encouraged to the point where it's not really a game anymore, it's a vehicle for insignificant individual victories at the cost of someone else's fun (As Logdotzip and Stev explicitly stated a page or so ago).

 

If I have to bring in a personal example (Because your side will demand it of me, and not of you), I can use my experience with Team Fortress 2. When given a choice between playing with people with a "win at any cost" mentality (And the occasional cheater) and playing with people that had more of an interest in making money off of the game, I stopped playing.

If you're comparing them now in how they contribute then surely you're doing so accepting the fact that they are both contributing to that cycle, otherwise you'd be comparing two things that aren't similar.

 

No, I still think that those who sell gold don't have a negative impact full stop. The process goes: Sell Gold -> Gold is stored on a mule -> Gold is bought. Selling gold and storing that gold on a mule has 0 negative influence as far as I see it. Perhaps the mule takes some extra unnecessary memory on Jagex's servers, I don't know.

 

When I said that I was trying to demonstrate that even if you think gold selling has a non 0 negative influence, that influence is still negligible.

 

Thinking and discussing them is a great, but it has no bearing on the conclusion we come to here when this thread is through because these guidelines are completely out of our hands as is their enforcement, whereas buying and selling is an individual's choice.

 

It does have a bearing. Whilst the rules may be out of our hands, you can still make an informed decision. I think the chance of getting banned using staking transfer methods such as giving PID in a vls stake are effectively 0. I.e. the rules cannot be enforced.

 

If the rules cannot be enforced, then the only factor determining whether or not you follow them is whether or not you think that rule is right.

No, I still think that those who sell gold don't have a negative impact full stop. The process goes: Sell Gold -> Gold is stored on a mule -> Gold is bought. Selling gold and storing that gold on a mule has 0 negative influence as far as I see it. Perhaps the mule takes some extra unnecessary memory on Jagex's servers, I don't know.

 

The system where-by you can sell gold does not exist without the buying of gold. If no one sold gold, then no one could buy it. If no one bought gold, no one could sell it. You can't look an an individual action as it exists now in the system available and disregard the impact that the system you are enabling has. Now, you can argue that the system doesn't have negative effects. But that is not what you are arguing.

 

If no one was buying gold it would not be possible to sell gold to a mule, therefor gold that you sell has a high probability of being packaged and resold to players who want to buy for their own benefit. End result is the RWT cycle. Just because a single action doesn't create or destroy that cycle, collectively selling gold (either legitimate or bot-farmed) is part of that cycle.

Thinking and discussing them is a great, but it has no bearing on the conclusion we come to here when this thread is through because these guidelines are completely out of our hands as is their enforcement, whereas buying and selling is an individual's choice.

 

It does have a bearing. Whilst the rules may be out of our hands, you can still make an informed decision. I think the chance of getting banned using staking transfer methods such as giving PID in a vls stake are effectively 0. I.e. the rules cannot be enforced.

 

If the rules cannot be enforced, then the only factor determining whether or not you follow them is whether or not you think that rule is right.

 

Regardless of how well they're enforced and no matter how that risk affects your individual decision, the rules are completely out of your hands to manipulate in any way. You're saying you can make an informed decision - this is true. Yet no one is saying you can't. Simply that these rules, regardless of what you think, and the means to change what is and isn't okay in the eyes of Jagex, are out of your hands.

 

As for the other part of your post, I think Myr summed it up quite well so I won't spin my wheels in the dust repeating the same thing haha.

I guess I'm the only one who views RWT as mostly hurting game creators rather than in-game environment. Well, it does that too. But when you sell gold you're basically making money off somebody's else work. If I worked hard to create a game I would be pissed if a bunch of punks started exploiting a grey area in the law to leech money for themselves. In the real world in other areas (music, film, books, etc) people who do stuff like that get prosecuted.

You're not the only one. I posted something very similar a few pages back.

Bots and gold selling are dependent of eachother, however they would also exist without eachother. People would still bot because they don't want to rc for 900 days before they could get the max cape, and people would still sell gold...because other people wouldn't want to kill green dragons for 900 days to buy torva...

 

Botting has a much worse impact on the economy then gold selling does. If Jagex could stop the botting, gold selling would hardly be an issue...

The system where-by you can sell gold does not exist without the buying of gold. If no one sold gold, then no one could buy it.

 

Wrong. Players selling gold don't even make up a single percentage of the gold sold by gold selling websites. I have no evidence for that other than my own knowledge, so ignore it if you want to. If no players sold gold, the gold selling websites would still run their bots and people would still buy gp. Players selling gold to the site have no impact there.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I'm not talking about players directly selling gold to other players. I'm talking about players selling gold to the big gold selling sites.

 

You can't look an an individual action as it exists now in the system available and disregard the impact that the system you are enabling has. Now, you can argue that the system doesn't have negative effects. But that is not what you are arguing.

 

How am I enabling the system, when the system would exist in an identical state to if I didn't sell gold (hypothetically speaked ofc). The only reason the gold selling sites buy gp off players is because they can sell it to other players for higher prices. If every RS player suddenly decided not to sell gp, the gold selling sites wouldn't even bat an eyelid. They derive the vast majority of their gold from bots. If the RWT system works perfectly without someone selling gold, what does it matter if that someone makes a little profit off it?

 

If no one was buying gold it would not be possible to sell gold to a mule, therefor gold that you sell has a high probability of being packaged and resold to players who want to buy for their own benefit. End result is the RWT cycle. Just because a single action doesn't create or destroy that cycle, collectively selling gold (either legitimate or bot-farmed) is part of that cycle.

 

Heh. Now we have legitimate gold selling. Lol'd.

 

Put it this way: players selling gold is like one link in the RWT chain. But if you removed that link, the chain would still function perfectly.

 

That's all I have to say on this part of the topic for now.

I'm sorry to jump on the bandwagon, but the idea of a "social contract" to Jagex or to the RS community in general I find to be wholly ridiculous. The social contract implies that if I uphold the society's rules and customs, I will in turn be rewarded by that society. RuneScape has one of the most retrograded, derogatory communities I have ever come across, with the possible exception of FPS games (and in their defence, adrenaline's pumping so it's understandable why they're so abusive, if only slightly). It's rank with "keeping-up-with-the-Jones" types, snobs, trolls, cheaters, bots... you name it.

 

There are good examples of player-made and player-moderated communities within RuneScape, but let's not pretend that the RS community in general is something that any of us owe anything to, sparing a legal obligation to Jagex when we signed the T&Cs. If I choose to follow rules, which I did when I played RuneScape, I do so out of personal conscience, not a "social contract" as I would do in real life.

on the one hand, there is no incentive to behave when the dishonest ones are making off with the loot with no real consequence to them

 

on the other hand, there is no incentive for jagex to respect the player base when all they do is take them for granted regardless of what they do

 

runescape is basically the neverneverland of mmos where everybody refuses to grow the [bleep] up already, and as such has nobody to blame but itself

 

i gladly welcome the EOCalypse

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I'm not talking about players directly selling gold to other players. I'm talking about players selling gold to the big gold selling sites.

Unfortunately, everyone else is talking about players directly selling gold to other players, if not gold selling as a whole.

My points were toward players selling to companies as well.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I'm not talking about players directly selling gold to other players. I'm talking about players selling gold to the big gold selling sites.

Unfortunately, everyone else is talking about players directly selling gold to other players, if not gold selling as a whole.

 

Nah they aren't.

 

This thread was created because of WAD and others being banned, who'd sell 10B+ at a time. Player-player transactions are rarely for anything over 100M because of trust issues (obviously one side has to pay first), and because other than companies based around RWT, there's no one willing to fork out tens of thousands for RSGP.

 

Player-player transactions make up such a small amount of RWT you can discard them.

It doesn't matter if I personally condone RWT or not.

 

Actually, it makes all the difference in the world …

 

I've not openly stated either.

 

A childish evasion but your answer will be most telling:

 

Do you or do you not support rule breaking within the game of Runescape?

 

Yes or no?

 

------------------- ===== --------------------

 

How interesting. Tell me, when you signed up to play the game itself, you were asked to agree to the terms and the conditions thereof, were you not? And you did agree to the terms and conditions, did you not?

Correct, I did, and I have abided by these said rules, apart from possibly the occasional swearing in game that got me in trouble.

 

However, just because I agree to these rules does not mean I agree WITH them.

 

If I were in a position to makes thousands of dollars a month doing relatively no harm to others (except maybe spoiling little Billy's time on some MMO), I would, though.

 

I see, and in real life, did you formally agree to any terms and conditions -- you know -- to abide by the laws/rules of your country of residence?

 

Probably not, but I simply want to ask this question for the purposes of clarification ...

I'm not sure what relevance this line of questioning has. Aren't they arguing as if what they're hypothetically suggesting would be within the rules of RuneScape, not out of them? You appear to be trying to sully names more than prove points.

I'm not sure what relevance this line of questioning has. Aren't they arguing as if what they're hypothetically suggesting would be within the rules of RuneScape, not out of them? You appear to be trying to sully names more than prove points.

 

Not at all -- I am merely making sure that I understand what they're saying as clearly and concisely as possible, prior to offering my next question ...

 

 

If I choose to follow rules, which I did when I played RuneScape, I do so out of personal conscience, not a "social contract" as I would do in real life.

 

I see, so you follow rules in accordance with what does your personal conscience dictates to you?

There was nothing in RuneScape's rules which my personal conscience objected severely enough to not to follow them. Had those rules changed, and I objected to them, then I'd choose not to follow them any more, and I'd leave (if I was still playing, obviously).

 

My point was that your comparison of that decision-making process, to the much larger concept of a "social contract" between citizens of a country, the law of that country, the law-making and law-enforcing entities of that country was unmerited and simply blown out of proportion. As part of my social contract with the rest of British society, for example, I have a right to be judged in front of a jury who have no previous prejudice of me, and that if I feel justice has been miscarried on me, I have a legal right to appeal a sentence passed on me. I can't say anything similar happens with Jagex, and I doubt you can either. Hence, we have no social contract between us, spare the fact both I, and Jagex, are British, of course.

 

What we have a plain and simple contract. They get my money, I follow their rules. Should either fail, the contract is void. It's as easy as that.

There was nothing in RuneScape's rules which my personal conscience objected severely enough to not to follow them. Had those rules changed, and I objected to them, then I'd choose not to follow them any more, and I'd leave (if I was still playing, obviously).

 

My point was that your comparison of that decision-making process, to the much larger concept of a "social contract" between citizens of a country, the law of that country, the law-making and law-enforcing entities of that country was unmerited and simply blown out of proportion. As part of my social contract with the rest of British society, for example, I have a right to be judged in front of a jury who have no previous prejudice of me, and that if I feel justice has been miscarried on me, I have a legal right to appeal a sentence passed on me. I can't say anything similar happens with Jagex, and I doubt you can either. Hence, we have no social contract between us, spare the fact both I, and Jagex, are British, of course.

 

I understand your point of view, but I don't agree with it. I will explain why, eventually, but first let's get to the common denominator first, without you pre-judging and jumping to conclusions ...

 

You've indicated that your personal conscience tells you to abide by rules, and you abide by those rules to which your personal conscience has no objection.

 

Why, do you suppose, does your personal conscience tells you to abide by such rules at all?

Generally, an intuition of what is "right" and "wrong", mixed with a slight helping of "how far out does this put me/how much does this benefit me". As I imagine is the case with the vast majority of people.

Generally, an intuition of what is "right" and "wrong", mixed with a slight helping of "how far out does this put me/how much does this benefit me". As I imagine is the case with the vast majority of people.

 

I see -- and do these notions of "personal conscience" only revolve around yourself?

Do you mean what I personally see as right and wrong, or what I feel is right or wrong by other people in terms of the impact it has on them? That's a bit of a "when did you last beat your wife" question.