But you can't give away something for free you don't legally own either so that wouldn't work as an argument.

 

By your logic, it is illegal to have drop parties or to give away free gp to some scrubs.

 

Quit grasping for straws, Stev's example is a perfectly legit loophole.

But you can't give away something for free you don't legally own either so that wouldn't work as an argument.

 

By your logic, it is illegal to have drop parties or to give away free gp to some scrubs.

 

Quit grasping for straws, Stev's example is a perfectly legit loophole.

I'm not grasping for straws those are different scenarios. You don't accept real money from someone when you put items in the party room or when you trade your friends free stuff. The legal loophole would have to have no relation to "free runescape character with every joke" and more "give me donations" and in a completely unrelated note I randomly decide to give you some in-game items.

Quick question: If I give someone 10B because I'm feeling generous, and receive a £3k gift at the same time, how can you prove the two events are linked?

They can't...all banning of players is most like on assumption that the players RWT, as it is very unlikely Jagex could actually prove it.

 

Also, I don't agree with Jagex owning the gp.

But you can't give away something for free you don't legally own either so that wouldn't work as an argument.

 

By your logic, it is illegal to have drop parties or to give away free gp to some scrubs.

 

Quit grasping for straws, Stev's example is a perfectly legit loophole.

I'm not grasping for straws those are different scenarios. You don't accept real money from someone when you put items in the party room or when you trade your friends free stuff. The legal loophole would have to have no relation to "free runescape character with every joke" and more "give me donations" and in a completely unrelated note I randomly decide to give you some in-game items.

 

Look up the concept of baksheesh.

 

That aside, the RWTer and the buyer would have an implicit, unspoken "understanding" that, when questioned by more respectable people such as yourself, both sides will hotly deny they are doing anything illegal. And they aren't, not on paper.

Quick question: If I give someone 10B because I'm feeling generous, and receive a £3k gift at the same time, how can you prove the two events are linked?

Here's a better question: Has that argument ever worked? Because you're far from the first person to come up with it.

 

It's not even a really good argument, it's the kind of logic puzzle that people come up with and congratulate themselves for being so smart, but it just doesn't hold up in the real world.

They can't...all banning of players is most like on assumption that the players RWT, as it is very unlikely Jagex could actually prove it.

 

Also, I don't agree with Jagex owning the gp.

Just to be clear, whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter. The law says you account, and everything related to it, belong to them under intellectual property laws. Quite simply, Jagex own the entire game, and your account and all it's items and levels and whatnot, are part of that game, which they own in its entirety.

 

You do not own your gold any more than you own any game you buy on steam (and if you didn't know that you don't own the games you buy through steam, then surprise!).

They can't...all banning of players is most like on assumption that the players RWT, as it is very unlikely Jagex could actually prove it.

 

Also, I don't agree with Jagex owning the gp.

Just to be clear, whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter. The law says you account, and everything related to it, belong to them under intellectual property laws. Quite simply, Jagex own the entire game, and your account and all it's items and levels and whatnot, are part of that game, which they own in its entirety.

 

You do not own your gold any more than you own any game you buy on steam (and if you didn't know that you don't own the games you buy through steam, then surprise!).

This is quite true.

The person who buys gold doesn't own it anymore than who they got it from. The gold in question never left JaGEx's game because it's intangible and confined to the game, and thus ownership of that gold never shifted from JaGEx. It's technically impossible to sell or buy RSGP. Not a single GP has ever been sold. What is being sold is whatever time/effort was spent stockpiling that gold into one place, which is also technically intangible but isn't owned by JaGEx.

They can't...all banning of players is most like on assumption that the players RWT, as it is very unlikely Jagex could actually prove it.

 

Also, I don't agree with Jagex owning the gp.

Just to be clear, whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter. The law says you account, and everything related to it, belong to them under intellectual property laws. Quite simply, Jagex own the entire game, and your account and all it's items and levels and whatnot, are part of that game, which they own in its entirety.

 

You do not own your gold any more than you own any game you buy on steam (and if you didn't know that you don't own the games you buy through steam, then surprise!).

 

Only until the case law holds up, which is yet to happen. Jagex makes the claim, and they can take you to court over the matter if they like, but that doesn't mean they would win.

 

I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here in the sense that although I have never sold gold, I wouldn't blame anyone who does. That is my stance. And I'm curious how well Jagex's case would hold up.

 

In terms of owning steam games, It's off topic, but I hate when nerds get worked up over it. Who cares if you own it or not.

I really think we should get rid of wildy again and trading - RS was really great then.

If you check out any court case involving people making money off of someone elses intellectual property, it's not hard to guess exactly whose favor such a case would go for involving Jagex. They need to prove that the game is their intellectual property, and that someone else made a profit off of it which they didn't authorize. That's really about it.

 

Also, don't forget that the legal precedent for it being their game has already been set. That the game is their intellectual property has already been held up in court in a previous lawsuit.

 

And the steam things isn't a judgement, its an example of another case where access or possession does not equate to ownership.

I really think we should get rid of wildy again and trading - RS was really great then.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

 

I certainly loved afking in wildy for 2 hours to get 4 kills, and the massive influx of money that came from that. I also loved junk, and merch clans controlling what you could and couldn't buy because they bought out every item for their scams. Need a whip? Guess I should wait until next week to buy it. Loved how useless items like mint cakes were suddenly used in escrow of gp in order to bypass a flawed system. Absolutely loved not being able to split drops with friends, and being confined to a strict pricing system. Loved how flawed the GE was, with items from bosses being permanently locked in place if no one bought them. RL trading by using third age items in ge was a great system. 3k trade limit was great when trying to share supplies when bossing. Finally, loved not being able to give items or money to friends as gifts.

 

Yep, RS was really great then.

Realize that it impacted different play styles very differently. While I was aware of the flaws during that time, they rarely impacted me, because I don't pk and I don't boss (well, not then). Actually, I rarely bought anything at all, and during that time, I was happy to trade a slower buying process for a general lack of bots being in my business, because they had been impacting my training pretty badly. When they reversed that, I lost my access to the wild. Not a huge loss, but I do miss the stars from time to time in particular.

 

I also don't care for merchanting, so I don't particularly benefit from a free market.

 

So while this is a very specific playstyle, realize that not everyone had a miserable time during the restriction. Some of us quite thoroughly enjoyed it.

If modifications were made to those systems (GE and Wilderness) they could become a lot more functional and less of a hindrance on a those that used those systems.

 

Whether or not it is worth (for the general player - each system benefits a different type of player) reimplementing restricted-trade to reduce botting, RWTing and gambling is another story.

If modifications were made to those systems (GE and Wilderness) they could become a lot more functional and less of a hindrance on a those that used those systems.

 

Whether or not it is worth (for the general player - each system benefits a different type of player) reimplementing restricted-trade to reduce botting, RWTing and gambling is another story.

 

It isn't worth it. It hurts too many people just to stop a few. People still botted on their own accounts. Entire companies botted or played on accounts which they sold to you. People got their accounts hacked just to sell the whole account with the gold in it. The trade restrictions didn't stop botting or RWT, just made it much more subtle but just as bad, while causing many more problems which I believe are worse than the RWT now.

 

Just take a step back. How is RWT hurting your play experience directly? I don't support RWT and believe anyone who does it should be banned or at least more strictly penalized, but I would be lying if I was saying RWT was hurting my play experience directly.

 

The entire PvM and PvP communities were hurt in their entirety. Some people claim staking isn't a legitimate form of making money, but some people only play to stake and don't do anything unscrupulous with the winnings. They were hurt too. Is that worth it to stop a relatively small number of people?

Is that worth it to stop a relatively small number of people?

When the relatively small number of people affect the majority, yes.

 

It isn't worth it. It hurts too many people just to stop a few. People still botted on their own accounts. Entire companies botted or played on accounts which they sold to you. People got their accounts hacked just to sell the whole account with the gold in it. The trade restrictions didn't stop botting or RWT, just made it much more subtle but just as bad, while causing many more problems which I believe are worse than the RWT now.

The trade restrictions didn't fully stop RWT, but they mitigated it. Instead of seeing massive groups of yew botters, RWT botters had to rely on people trusting them with their accounts. This reduced the client base of RWT companies, while also reducing the amount of acounts online at one time botting.

 

Just take a step back. How is RWT hurting your play experience directly? I don't support RWT and believe anyone who does it should be banned or at least more strictly penalized, but I would be lying if I was saying RWT was hurting my play experience directly.

 

As a person that has made most of my money by doing the member's dirty work and gathering resources, botters affect me by mining, woodcutting, and fishing resources much more efficiently than me, reducing the prices that I could sell my items for. Also, free trade has affected me by allowing merchanters to dictate supply and demand and allowing prices to rise and fall much more rapidly (while they gain money consistently), meaning I have to be more careful about when to sell, instead of just leaving my items on the grand exchange and selling it then.

Both free-trade and restricted-trade hurt people, I was questioning which hurts the average players more.

 

As Decabal said; Removal off free trade mitigated botting. Yes, it didn't stop it, but it definitely slowed it down. Do you really think the removal of free trade increased the prevalence of phishing and hijacking? Because I really doubt it. Even if it did now, with the increased security, hacking would be a small issue.

 

As for the effect of RWT on me personally; it increases the number of bots, brings in a connection between real-life and in-game, decreases the integrity of the game, and has an effect on the price of items. If you're only talking about RWTers that gain their gp from gambling then exclude the first point.

 

Yes, it will hurt those players that engage in PvM and PvP. But with changes to the GE, lootshare and bounty systems the effect can be minimized. Restricted-trade is preferable to a large number of players; mainly those in the low-to-mid level range.

 

I'm not going to argue that restricted-trade is better for everyone, because it isn't. But you can't say with absolute certainty that it's worse for the average player.

If you check out any court case involving people making money off of someone elses intellectual property, it's not hard to guess exactly whose favor such a case would go for involving Jagex. They need to prove that the game is their intellectual property, and that someone else made a profit off of it which they didn't authorize. That's really about it.

 

Also, don't forget that the legal precedent for it being their game has already been set. That the game is their intellectual property has already been held up in court in a previous lawsuit.

 

And the steam things isn't a judgement, its an example of another case where access or possession does not equate to ownership.

 

At this point, it's considered IP, but it's heavily debated and the laws for these things could change. As time goes on and we move more and more towards the realization of virtual currency, I feel many of these claims will be challenged.

 

I agree with you in the sense that right now, as the laws are, it would seem Jagex holds ownership over their data. But IP laws are ever-changing, and I believe at some point their is going to be a distinction between intellectual property and virtual data.

Is that worth it to stop a relatively small number of people?

When the relatively small number of people affect the majority, yes.

[rest of post, I shortened]

Read the rest of my post above that part. It will hurt more people diretcly than botting is. You mentioned that you WC and Mined and Fished. Did you know current prices are higher are about the same as they were during restricted trade? And it was actually easier to force prices during restricted trade by using the GE? You complain about prices fluxuating, but they aren't all that different from when there was no free trade.

 

And buying raw materials in restricted trade ge? Good luck, when everything is bought out for maximum price because people are waiting for it to rise and refuse to sell. Sick of waiting a few days to get raw materials I wanted to train. And you mentioned waiting for the right time to sell? Same principle applies with restricted trade.

 

And restoring restricted trade RIGHT NOW will not stop client based companies. Legitimate accounts, not lvl 3 throwaway accounts, will still bot to get levels. There will still be bots around, sure less goldselling bots, but I guarentee you prices will not change much. Resource gathering will get popular with bots gone, and the prices will remain the same. I saw it happen firsthand in 2007, it will surely happen again.

 

Both free-trade and restricted-trade hurt people, I was questioning which hurts the average players more.

Read my post a few posts up, post #412. It lists all the BS that happened when free trade wasn't around. People complaining they were being scammed all of their money, through a different form of gambling in "merch clans", a type can controlled all the odds for themselves.

 

As for the effect of RWT on me personally; it increases the number of bots, brings in a connection between real-life and in-game, decreases the integrity of the game, and has an effect on the price of items. If you're only talking about RWTers that gain their gp from gambling then exclude the first point.

The only thing you listed that has a tangible effect is "price of items", which I explained was false above. Sure integrity is important, I even emphasized it in a previous post, but integrity or lack of it will not mess up my gameplay directly.

 

Yes, it will hurt those players that engage in PvM and PvP. But with changes to the GE, lootshare and bounty systems the effect can be minimized. Restricted-trade is preferable to a large number of players; mainly those in the low-to-mid level range.

 

You list "changes" like Jagex would actually do that. The free trade system was around for over 3 years without changes, and all the things you listed above slowly went to crap. And "Restricted-trade is preferable to a large number of players; mainly those in the low-to-mid level range." That means I might as well start wearing rune again and mining coal. You forget that this isn't like classes, such as low, middle, and upper class in real life. Low and mid players WILL become high level players. Then what? They enter a world of restrictions and might as well continue mining.

 

Meanwhile, players of all levels took advantage of the BH system to get free money. This money influx is what drove prices so high for many items. This is even worse than botting, because at least bots aren't getting free money from mining or wcing.

 

 

I'm not going to argue that restricted-trade is better for everyone, because it isn't. But you can't say with absolute certainty that it's worse for the average player.

 

I listed enough reasons why it DIRECTLY AFFECTS you, post #412 this thread. I am absolutely certain, having lived through it, that it is worse.

 

People are nostalgic for an earlier time. Through this nostalgia, we tend to eliminate all the bad and focus on the good, which when compared to today which is usually seen as all bad, seems like a great time. But it wasn't.

 

Did you know that many of the elderly still living in Russia actually view Communist Russia as a better time for the country, as a time of prosperity? I liken that to how people view Runescape during the trade restrictions, compared to now.

 

Jagex can do so much more to stop bots and rwt. Discussing going back to restricted trade is like ignoring all other measures that would be simpler and more beneficial to execute.

Alright, I get where your coming from now, and that is a particularly interesting road.

 

Right now the laws seem to exist in a weird state, where the virtual currency is the property of the patent holder in an IP case, but not in others (such as a case of virtual theft). Honestly, I kind of like how it is right now, but I'm sure that the legal system will eventually find new, less confusing, ways to deal with this. On the other hand, for a legal system that uses precedents, we could be stuck with the system they develop for quite a while.

On the other hand, for a legal system that uses precedents, we could be stuck with the system they develop for quite a while.

That's ultimately the real problem, isn't it? I mean, how long have we had IP theft issues and how long has it taken the legal system to start to combat it (other than when the recording industry and multinational corporations pressure them into dealing with their specific problems)? It's like the people in charge have no idea what this is all about and so they're burying their heads in the sand until the problem becomes so rampant that they have no choice but to deal with it without fully realizing what it is they're dealing with. It's not unlike how print media, newspapers in particular, ignored the internet for two decades until it was almost too late.

While the legal system has been incredibly slow to move on this, I think there is hope that at some point people who actually do have some understanding of what is going on will eventually enter the legal and political systems, and once this happens, the framework can at least be set up where the the industry can bring its cases to trial, and the legal precedents can be set.

Why do you think I am nostalgic for restricted-trade? I don't long to go back to that time in RuneScape. I played RuneScape for a long time before restricted-trade, and I'm still playing now, with the present being my favourite time in the game. I'm just open to the possibility that restricted-trade could be overall beneficial to the game - I never said it definitely will be. It may have be worse for you, but that doesn't mean it will be worse for everyone.

 

I honestly understand your points and issues, and have experienced them. I would prefer other options to stop RWT and botting, but if these other options fail I'm just undecided whether I would prefer to continue with free-trade or a modified version of restricted trade.

Part of the reason IP theft is not controlled legally is that it is notoriously difficult to prove, detect, or stop. I can have the same idea as someone else, so why should I be screwed simply because I didn't know about a patent? Sharing ideas seems natural, so why is it that people have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars/currency if they share music? We've applied a physical conception of property to the nonphysical 'idea'.

 

It benefits a few people at the expense of the community. While those benefits are definitely good for the person it is an interesting question whether society benefits because of it. (And even whether the individual does, as in cases with record labels who effectively take everything from the artist)

 

Legal laws don't really work because many people don't see it as wrong, and you can't really detect much of the theft/copying of ideas. It isn't even really "theft" in one sense because if I copy your idea, I don't deprive you of the original. I only deprive you of exclusive control. That really isn't the same thing as stealing a physical object. Now for digital items in game, that can be theft because you can actually deprive someone of it.

 

Either way, detecting online copying/theft would require completely rearchitecting the internet, and we've seen what happens when laws of that sort attempt to get passed (not withstanding those wouldn't really change anything about the actual makeup of the internet..) and the entire community of the internet basically says "no."

BIG UPDATE

 

Win All Day - banned with 100b [win all day fc]

Stokenut - banned with 5b [fishy fc]

Smokin Mils - banned with #b [smokin mils fc]

Mr J Rune - banned with #b [smokin mils fc]

Pitiful - banned with 20b [fishy fc]

Maxy Pad - banned with 85b [fishy fc]

Cls Product + mules - perm locked / banned with 30b [cls product fc]

Mx799 - banned with 20b [cls product fc]

Joopi - banned with #b [no fc]

Lucky D - perm locked with 30b [fishy fc]

F44 - Perm locked with 13b, appealed, sold, then perm banned [fishy fc]

Jail - Perm locked/banned with 5b [fishy fc]

Pikin is Fun - Perm locked with 55b [fishy fc]

iZinC - Perm locked with 45b [fishy fc]

The WomD - Perm locked with #b [fishy fc]

Smite Yo BGS - permlock/possible reset [fishy fc] (might be 2 week)

Ranginranq91 - permlock/possible reset [fishy fc] (might be 2 week)

Gws2 - permlock [no fc]

 

NEW ADDITIONS

 

Fishy + mules - permlocked with ~120b [fishy fc]

Starrychelx + mules - permlocked with 200 - 300b [fishy fc]

Few other Fishy FC hosts that I haven't the names of yet.

Fear One - perm lock with ~50b [fear one fc]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool