14th Jan - Kalphite King

[Krampell]

You're all assuming he abused a bug. Something not going how jagex intended and something being bug abuse are very very different things.

It's still a bug in the system when it's not working like it should.

If it wasn't a bug then it wouldn't have been patched.

 

runescape 6 minutes ago

wow, you indeed have mad skills =) i wish you'd come to visit us so we could watch you nail him live! maybe next boss ; ) - paul m

 

That isn't praise for being a good game tester, it's praise for "having mad skills" and accomplishing feats.

They worded it that way because if they said anything about manipulating the boss mechanics then everyone would want him banned because Jagex themselves acknowledged him as abusing the system and not banning him. And thus hypocrism. Banning whoever they want and leaving others in the shadow.

[Artemis1330]

If doing something contrary to how jagex intends is what you consider bug abuse, all of us should be banned. You could fill a dictionary with things not going how Jagex intended on runescape, that is now accepted game play.

[Urza285]

If its an unsanctioned mechanic to the boss fight its not a bug.

 

^ that is exactly te mind set of jagex as far as bugs.

 

This means that if a player can walk a boss to prevent damage, stun it to prevent an attack or use an unsanctioned safe sports all fair game and within the parameters. Parameters being within the obvious rules of interaction between the gamer and the game.

 

Something such as duplicating items or smuggling things out of darmonhiem is clearly outside the parameters.

 

Why does it feel like I'm arguing to the extent and seriousness of a legal proceeding? I mean this is why I stared before elsewhere that we need to maintain a level of novelty in regards to the game and its community as well.

[Sy_Accursed]

If doing something contrary to how jagex intends is what you consider bug abuse, all of us should be banned. You could fill a dictionary with things not going how Jagex intended on runescape, that is now accepted game play.

 

There is a distinct difference between something unintentional (eg prayer flashing) that is still within the normal operation of the system and something that specifically goes against the intended system (eg being able to manipulate kk attacks).

 

The later is bug abuse because it is a bug; the former is emergent gameplay that finds ways to use the system to it's advantage. True the KK one isn't a major bug abuse that warrants epic bannings and such, but as an unintended feature to be patched it is still a bug. The only reason it's any sort of issue is this specific bug allowed Woox to solo the KK and Jmods still give him a fame boost and praise for it even though it is a hollow achievement resulting from abusing a bug.

[Golvellius]

I remember when he had a tantrum because Jagex didn't pay him for helping teach noobs and quit.

Too bad he is back apparently.

[xpx]

I remember when he had a tantrum because Jagex didn't pay him for helping teach noobs and quit.

Too bad he is back apparently.

It's great that you're still here :wub:

 

And in any case, jagex doesn't really care if you abuse minor bugs for nominal gain and don't encourage others to do so aswell. This was simply an oversight on their part, and as they casually use their players as a QA team, works well for everyone.

[Estoc]

The obvious difference here is woox was testing the random chance to see how long it took to get a solo kill without the one shot KO move. [...] Give the guy credit not based solely on his feats, but his wits too.

 

The "wits" he used while fighting the KK over and over until he got lucky is the same train of thought people use killing Dust Devils for a dragon chain.

[Alg]

The "wits" he used while fighting the KK over and over until he got lucky is the same train of thought people use killing Dust Devils for a dragon chain.

And considering that this was (possibly) patched after he did it, I'd say it's safe to call it a bug.

[decebal]

So what exactly was the bug he was abusing?

[Estoc]

Anyone who's gone KK will tell you that the King will fire his 1hko attack multiple times per kill. This coupled with his ridiculously low number of attempts (25-30) and the fact that soloing would be far slower and so present many more opportunities to get koed all but rules out the claims of him "just getting lucky".

[Thus]

The stun thing wasn't even skillful, it was a glitch used at the right time. I know people are debating if its bug abuse or not, but that really was not intended by the developers. He also got lucky it maged as often as it did, so it didn't damage him much.

 

Jagex really needs to stop dick riding woox as much as his fanboys. This all stems from his Nex solo, which he wasn't even the first to do. Either feature more people who know what they are doing, or feature no one. There is a reason he isn't well liked in most PvM circles, and that is Jagex's fault, not his.

[Golvellius]

There is a reason he isn't well liked in most PvM circles, and that is Jagex's fault, not his.

I can guess it's because he gets everything nerfed to hell.

This POP thing with randoms ruined a perfectly good end game strategy.

I'm not to happy about or that he gets a 2 month head start because he abused the living piss out of it and made a show of it.

Let's face it, the dude has friends on the developer's staff.

I can't believe he can find all these exploits on his own.

We know it's a team effort, and I bet a Jagex dev is on the team.

[Cheefoo]

There is a reason he isn't well liked in most PvM circles, and that is Jagex's fault, not his.

I can guess it's because he gets everything nerfed to hell.

This POP thing with randoms ruined a perfectly good end game strategy.

I'm not to happy about or that he gets a 2 month head start because he abused the living piss out of it and made a show of it.

Let's face it, the dude has friends on the developer's staff.

I can't believe he can find all these exploits on his own.

We know it's a team effort, and I bet a Jagex dev is on the team.

 

I was thinking the same thing. He's always among the first to just "stumble upon" these exploits. I'm especially pissed off at the PoP glitch. I've been hardcore porting since release, and I'm "only" 60% to the Pincers.

 

What's worse are the dickriders who will defend Woox at every turn.

 

P.S. He has shit taste in music and he's 12.

[Yoko Kurama]

That's an interesting speculation: the Dev team probably leaves a little "treat" for him with every major update. 8-)

[Skiwee]

I do not normally take part in arguments on forums because they are often petty and a waste of my time, but I am going to make an exception here because it suits me.

 

In this argument, however, I do not have a dog as they say. I do not PvM, I do not herald myself as having an online presence, and I do not care about the opinions of people I will never meet. That being said I do read the Tip.it forums and as such have to read through arguments like this all the time. I know what i have to say will neither change the opinion of those who disagree with me nor will I feel better about the general petty nature of most posters here.

 

So my argument is simply this: There are those here that assert that Woox's accomplishment is not impressive because he abused a bug. This 'bug' was not explained prior to it being changed nor could anyone have known that the developers had not intended that to happen. Jagex changing the mechanic after he solo'd the Kalphite King does not mean that he was aware that it was a bug and that he was abusing nor does that even mean that it was a bug at all. It simply means that he took advantage of a mechanic that he found (or learned from others) and used that to kill the Kalphite King. Jagex programmed the mechanic that way and I assume that they 'fixed' it to make him harder once they realized how easy it made him.

 

Now who is to say that it was a bug at all? I certainly cannot nor can anyone else other than Jagex, and it just so happens that Jagex has already given their half of the story:

 

Some changes to the Kalphite Kings behaviour have been made to prevent manipulation of his attack cycle in order to avoid more powerful attacks.

 

 

That does not state that it was a bug at all. They changed the code to make the boss more difficult. Simple as that. Very much like re-balancing the Glacors. Since they changed the combat values to reflect the EOC changes, was it bug abuse for anyone that was killing them post EOC, pre-changes?

 

More to the point, while I was going for 99 smithing, I was using the technique of smelting gold ore in the furnace and superheating gold ore with magic. Much later and well before I got 99, they changed this mechanic. Was I, and countless others, bug abusing? By the definitions given in this thread, I was, but then the argument of emergent gameplay comes into light. Surely the smelt/superheat was emergent gameplay and not bug abuse.

 

"But it took them months to patch that, so it was not bug abuse," some might say. Perhaps. Or it was not as common knowledge as how the Kalphite King was solo'd. So then where do we draw the line for bug abuse and emergent gameplay? Apparently my answer has already been given to me. Prayer Flashing. By standards stated that would not be considered bug abuse. It is simply using the game mechanics that are available to the player base to get the most out of what we are given. If, however, Jagex figured out a way to fix that tomorrow and patched it, by the standards given, would it not have been abusing the way Runescape operates on ticks? Surely one could see the error in thinking that it would be anything but bug abuse. No where is it stated that prayer flashing is against the rules, it has never been classified as a bug, but if they changed it tomorrow (much like they did the Kalphite King), one would have to agree that it was abusing a bug if they were to use the logic in this thread.

 

 

Now in the same way that prayer flashing is not a bug, so too was how Woox killed the Kalphite King. No where is there an official listing of what is and is not a bug. Therefor Woox had no way of knowing whether it was or was not a bug. No where has Jagex stated that it was, nor is there anywhere that showed us exactly how the 1 hit K-O worked. Thus there is no way one could argue that he abused a bug. Based upon the facts of this whole situation and not my feelings, one can easily see that Jagex has simply changed a mechanic that they did not like but before they did, someone showed them why they should.

[Yoko Kurama]

All of the examples and various arguments you make are completely irrelevant to the issue. There have long been various traditions and conventions by which we can know what is "bug abuse" and what is "emergent gameplay". They're are all simple enough, that much like pornography, even if we don't have a very strict criteria of what constitutes it, we know it when we see it. When you solo a boss that Jagex has repeatedly stated was not intended to be soloed by making use of esoteric errors in game mechanics, you're bug abusing. It's really that simple. The implication on your part that Jagex has to write down beforehand whether certain imaginary scenarios constitute bug abuse or not otherwise it's not bug abuse because they didn't tell us that beforehand, is ridiculous. Exploiting a bug is a rule that has a "spirit" to it as well a "letter" to it, and it's easy enough to follow both.

[Cheefoo]

It was fixed days after being discovered. It gave an advantage. It was a bug.

 

I'm not saying Woox should be banned for bug abusing, I'm just saying most (actually all) of his fame comes from him "finding" a bug, exploiting it, posting it on youtube, then playing shitty hardstyle over it as his horde of buttmonkey fanboys laud him as a genius.

 

Killing glacors post-EoC-pre-nerf was harder than ever. Obviously killing them then wasn't bug abuse. Prayer flashing isn't a bug, because, surprise, it's STILL not patched out. Maybe it wasn't "intended" at first, but Jagex definitely has no problem with it.

[Skiwee]

The spirit and letter that you describe however is not static but opinionated. Thus cannot be used to discus what is and is not a bug by the standards of those that have not offered their opinion. In this case however they have, and in this case they have shown that it was not in fact bug abuse.

[Yoko Kurama]

The spirit and letter that you describe however is not static but opinionated.

 

I never claimed it was static, nor does it have to be. As new cases emerge, those conventions will no doubt change. This incident, though, is not one of those cases. It is clearly bug abuse and there's nothing in this case that suggests that we should modify the previous precedents.

 

In this case however they have, and in this case they have shown that it was not in fact bug abuse.

 

Jagex need not explicitly condemn this in order for someone like me or others to argue whether it constitutes bug abuse or not. The rules are there, anyone who knows RS history is aware of the various informal conventions; thus we can arrive at our own conclusions.

[Urza285]

How does one tell when the discussion value goes from genuine to plain rabid babbling with the occasional foaming at the mouth?

 

Seriously? I don't even know woox, but he certain ain't bug abusing... Jagex ain't brown-nosing him either. The most they did was give him a proverbial pat in the back for his emergent game play. Most specifically they consistently do this because he forges ahead of most to test the grounds. Jagex might be the ones who lay the path for players to walk... That path might not be so obvious to everyone too. But don't blame woox for using what's at his disposal to push the limits.

[Estoc]

 

 

I do not normally take part in arguments on forums because they are often petty and a waste of my time, but I am going to make an exception here because it suits me.

 

In this argument, however, I do not have a dog as they say. I do not PvM, I do not herald myself as having an online presence, and I do not care about the opinions of people I will never meet. That being said I do read the Tip.it forums and as such have to read through arguments like this all the time. I know what i have to say will neither change the opinion of those who disagree with me nor will I feel better about the general petty nature of most posters here.

 

So my argument is simply this: There are those here that assert that Woox's accomplishment is not impressive because he abused a bug. This 'bug' was not explained prior to it being changed nor could anyone have known that the developers had not intended that to happen. Jagex changing the mechanic after he solo'd the Kalphite King does not mean that he was aware that it was a bug and that he was abusing nor does that even mean that it was a bug at all. It simply means that he took advantage of a mechanic that he found (or learned from others) and used that to kill the Kalphite King. Jagex programmed the mechanic that way and I assume that they 'fixed' it to make him harder once they realized how easy it made him.

 

Now who is to say that it was a bug at all? I certainly cannot nor can anyone else other than Jagex, and it just so happens that Jagex has already given their half of the story:

 

Some changes to the Kalphite Kings behaviour have been made to prevent manipulation of his attack cycle in order to avoid more powerful attacks.

 

 

That does not state that it was a bug at all. They changed the code to make the boss more difficult. Simple as that. Very much like re-balancing the Glacors. Since they changed the combat values to reflect the EOC changes, was it bug abuse for anyone that was killing them post EOC, pre-changes?

 

More to the point, while I was going for 99 smithing, I was using the technique of smelting gold ore in the furnace and superheating gold ore with magic. Much later and well before I got 99, they changed this mechanic. Was I, and countless others, bug abusing? By the definitions given in this thread, I was, but then the argument of emergent gameplay comes into light. Surely the smelt/superheat was emergent gameplay and not bug abuse.

 

"But it took them months to patch that, so it was not bug abuse," some might say. Perhaps. Or it was not as common knowledge as how the Kalphite King was solo'd. So then where do we draw the line for bug abuse and emergent gameplay? Apparently my answer has already been given to me. Prayer Flashing. By standards stated that would not be considered bug abuse. It is simply using the game mechanics that are available to the player base to get the most out of what we are given. If, however, Jagex figured out a way to fix that tomorrow and patched it, by the standards given, would it not have been abusing the way Runescape operates on ticks? Surely one could see the error in thinking that it would be anything but bug abuse. No where is it stated that prayer flashing is against the rules, it has never been classified as a bug, but if they changed it tomorrow (much like they did the Kalphite King), one would have to agree that it was abusing a bug if they were to use the logic in this thread.

 

 

Now in the same way that prayer flashing is not a bug, so too was how Woox killed the Kalphite King. No where is there an official listing of what is and is not a bug. Therefor Woox had no way of knowing whether it was or was not a bug. No where has Jagex stated that it was, nor is there anywhere that showed us exactly how the 1 hit K-O worked. Thus there is no way one could argue that he abused a bug. Based upon the facts of this whole situation and not my feelings, one can easily see that Jagex has simply changed a mechanic that they did not like but before they did, someone showed them why they should.

 

 

Prayer flashing:

Was being utilized for years before it was finally addressed.

Requires increased input to gain increased benefits.

Does not stop bosses like Nomad or Pest queen from using their signature moves thus taking all the challenge out of them.

 

This bug turned KK into Runebound Behemoth, a boss far, far easier and completely soloable contrary to the initial design. You are correct in saying it was not bug abuse, however it is most certainly a bug*. It is a defect in both the plan of how KK is supposed to work and in how the code was written, allowing it to happen. I don't think anyone here is arguing for a ban, they just want him to stop being officially recognized as a skilled pvmer despite the fact that most high level pvmers could do the same given access to the same bug he was.

 

* a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan - http://dictionary.re.../browse/bug?s=t

 

 

How does one tell when the discussion value goes from genuine to plain rabid babbling with the occasional foaming at the mouth?

 

Seriously? I don't even know woox, but he certain ain't bug abusing... Jagex ain't brown-nosing him either. The most they did was give him a proverbial pat in the back for his emergent game play. Most specifically they consistently do this because he forges ahead of most to test the grounds. Jagex might be the ones who lay the path for players to walk... That path might not be so obvious to everyone too. But don't blame woox for using what's at his disposal to push the limits.

 

I would agree with this if they didn't immediately hide the trails he so boldly blazed. Hell, I do respect him for doing just this and being the first(?) one to solo Corp.

[Urza285]

 

 

I do not normally take part in arguments on forums because they are often petty and a waste of my time, but I am going to make an exception here because it suits me.

 

In this argument, however, I do not have a dog as they say. I do not PvM, I do not herald myself as having an online presence, and I do not care about the opinions of people I will never meet. That being said I do read the Tip.it forums and as such have to read through arguments like this all the time. I know what i have to say will neither change the opinion of those who disagree with me nor will I feel better about the general petty nature of most posters here.

 

So my argument is simply this: There are those here that assert that Woox's accomplishment is not impressive because he abused a bug. This 'bug' was not explained prior to it being changed nor could anyone have known that the developers had not intended that to happen. Jagex changing the mechanic after he solo'd the Kalphite King does not mean that he was aware that it was a bug and that he was abusing nor does that even mean that it was a bug at all. It simply means that he took advantage of a mechanic that he found (or learned from others) and used that to kill the Kalphite King. Jagex programmed the mechanic that way and I assume that they 'fixed' it to make him harder once they realized how easy it made him.

 

Now who is to say that it was a bug at all? I certainly cannot nor can anyone else other than Jagex, and it just so happens that Jagex has already given their half of the story:

 

Some changes to the Kalphite Kings behaviour have been made to prevent manipulation of his attack cycle in order to avoid more powerful attacks.

 

 

That does not state that it was a bug at all. They changed the code to make the boss more difficult. Simple as that. Very much like re-balancing the Glacors. Since they changed the combat values to reflect the EOC changes, was it bug abuse for anyone that was killing them post EOC, pre-changes?

 

More to the point, while I was going for 99 smithing, I was using the technique of smelting gold ore in the furnace and superheating gold ore with magic. Much later and well before I got 99, they changed this mechanic. Was I, and countless others, bug abusing? By the definitions given in this thread, I was, but then the argument of emergent gameplay comes into light. Surely the smelt/superheat was emergent gameplay and not bug abuse.

 

"But it took them months to patch that, so it was not bug abuse," some might say. Perhaps. Or it was not as common knowledge as how the Kalphite King was solo'd. So then where do we draw the line for bug abuse and emergent gameplay? Apparently my answer has already been given to me. Prayer Flashing. By standards stated that would not be considered bug abuse. It is simply using the game mechanics that are available to the player base to get the most out of what we are given. If, however, Jagex figured out a way to fix that tomorrow and patched it, by the standards given, would it not have been abusing the way Runescape operates on ticks? Surely one could see the error in thinking that it would be anything but bug abuse. No where is it stated that prayer flashing is against the rules, it has never been classified as a bug, but if they changed it tomorrow (much like they did the Kalphite King), one would have to agree that it was abusing a bug if they were to use the logic in this thread.

 

 

Now in the same way that prayer flashing is not a bug, so too was how Woox killed the Kalphite King. No where is there an official listing of what is and is not a bug. Therefor Woox had no way of knowing whether it was or was not a bug. No where has Jagex stated that it was, nor is there anywhere that showed us exactly how the 1 hit K-O worked. Thus there is no way one could argue that he abused a bug. Based upon the facts of this whole situation and not my feelings, one can easily see that Jagex has simply changed a mechanic that they did not like but before they did, someone showed them why they should.

 

 

Prayer flashing:

Was being utilized for years before it was finally addressed.

Requires increased input to gain increased benefits.

Does not stop bosses like Nomad or Pest queen from using their signature moves thus taking all the challenge out of them.

 

This bug turned KK into Runebound Behemoth, a boss far, far easier and completely soloable contrary to the initial design. You are correct in saying it was not bug abuse, however it is most certainly a bug*. It is a defect in both the plan of how KK is supposed to work and in how the code was written, allowing it to happen. I don't think anyone here is arguing for a ban, they just want him to stop being officially recognized as a skilled pvmer despite the fact that most high level pvmers could do the same given access to the same bug he was.

 

* a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan - http://dictionary.re.../browse/bug?s=t

 

 

How does one tell when the discussion value goes from genuine to plain rabid babbling with the occasional foaming at the mouth?

 

Seriously? I don't even know woox, but he certain ain't bug abusing... Jagex ain't brown-nosing him either. The most they did was give him a proverbial pat in the back for his emergent game play. Most specifically they consistently do this because he forges ahead of most to test the grounds. Jagex might be the ones who lay the path for players to walk... That path might not be so obvious to everyone too. But don't blame woox for using what's at his disposal to push the limits.

 

I would agree with this if they didn't immediately hide the trails he so boldly blazed. Hell, I do respect him for doing just this and being the first(?) one to solo Corp.

Even then using a definition is subject to the context of the situation. If you were to play a much more involving game as fad as PVM such as WoW it would be so much harder to make clear boundaries for emergent game play. My point really is that runescape is starting to lose that blockiness it has as far as combat goes. You are going to see a lot more emergent game play such as what's come up. At the moment nothing much has come up, but I can imagine a few ideas... Such as using the bleed abilities while kiting bosses. Eve then runescape does retain some of its blockiness sadly.

[muggiwhplar]

Just watched the Woox KK vid. I felt like I was supposed to be tripping on acid while watching it.

[Urza285]

Just watched the Woox KK vid. I felt like I was supposed to be tripping on acid while watching it.

That's the general feeling of all mainstream pvm/pvp mantage or extremism videos. The techno/ electronic music and whacky custom cursors... All that to look cool.

[muggiwhplar]

I quit watching RS videos when people started adding their own cheesy "special effects" which detracted from the footage itself. If you have to add special effects to your video to make it watchable, then it's probably a pretty dull video in the first place.