Missing, Presumed Death

[Wkw]

Could someone put a screenshot of the zaros mist?

 

All I noticed in the first part of the last scene was a purple crystal over zaros' seat, which I initially thought was Seren..

[Yoko Kurama]

It's also worth noting that when the Sara and Zammy forces initially went on their crusade against the Zarosian forces; eventually Wahisetal tries to turn them against one another and he fails. They seemed pretty determined to get rid of a common threat and were able to work together extremely effectively. Sliske is a complete loose cannon and they have every reason to band against him, and they even have a past history of working together against common threats. So this history makes the prisoner's dilemma situation even more unlikely.

[helring]

Immediate thoughts: Sliske is completely unreliable, this is obviously a ruse, why would he give the SOJ up to any of the other Gods, No I won't play your game!  

 

But then the doubt sets in: Is it really a ruse or is he really willing to give up the SOJ, will any of the other Gods take him up on the offer, even if I refuse to take him up on the offer does that make it so the other gods will leave me alone, I really don't want *insert god here* on Gielinor anyway so I'd have to eliminate them anyway, what if I don't play that God does and wins the SOJ then they might eliminate me,  if I eliminate them now and Sliske is lying well then my foe is still gone, what downside is there for me playing the game...should I do it and in case he's telling the truth can I afford not to?

[Yoko Kurama]

I will reiterate again that the probability, even from the point of view of the lore, of Sliske actually doing it is zero. Why would he give this extremely powerful item that he has worked so hard to obtain, for no reason at all? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Sliske has been in the power game on Gelinor for thousands of years, in one battle after another, one scheme after another, working either for Zaros or for himself. And after he has spent thousands of years doing all this, he's just going to give it away? Seems ridiculous that any God would, even by self-doubt, believe this. You all keep pointing out that it's a dilemma, and the Gods can't trust each other -- but they have an even infinitely less of a reason to trust Sliske. If they can't trust each other, then they sure as hell can't trust Sliske.

 

And yes, the gods do want to eliminate the others, but on their terms. In a one-on-one battle (like BoL), or in a situation where they have some chance/control. In the free-for-all brawl that Sliske is proposing, there is absolutely no control and anyone could die. And if somehow you do survive, you (as well as your forces) will be weakened and easy pickings for a returning Zaros or an ascended Sliske. Sliske may not be as strong as the gods now, but if they expend all their efforts in this crazy free-for-all brawl and emerge weakened, then they sure could be weak enough for him to kill.

 

It's just a completely dangerous and implausible scenario for any god, aside from Bandos, to fall for this, given the current motivations. I guess we can agree to disagree, but that's how I feel. 

[Hedgehog]

They aren't falling for anything. They don't have a choice.

[helring]

I will reiterate again that the probability, even from the point of view of the lore, of Sliske actually doing it is zero. Why would he give this extremely powerful item that he has worked so hard to obtain, for no reason at all? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Sliske has been in the power game on Gelinor for thousands of years, in one battle after another, one scheme after another, working either for Zaros or for himself. And after he has spent thousands of years doing all this, he's just going to give it away? Seems ridiculous that any God would, even by self-doubt, believe this. You all keep pointing out that it's a dilemma, and the Gods can't trust each other -- but they have an even infinitely less of a reason to trust Sliske. If they can't trust each other, then they sure as hell can't trust Sliske.

 

And yes, the gods do want to eliminate the others, but on their terms. In a one-on-one battle (like BoL), or in a situation where they have some chance/control. In the free-for-all brawl that Sliske is proposing, there is absolutely no control and anyone could die. And if somehow you do survive, you (as well as your forces) will be weakened and easy pickings for a returning Zaros or an ascended Sliske. Sliske may not be as strong as the gods now, but if they expend all their efforts in this crazy free-for-all brawl and emerge weakened, then they sure could be weak enough for him to kill.

 

It's just a completely dangerous and implausible scenario for any god, aside from Bandos, to fall for this, given the current motivations. I guess we can agree to disagree, but that's how I feel. 

 

Thats the issue. I don't believe the probability is 0. Its very slim, but Sliske is unpredictable and handing it over may be part of his plan. We don't know and the other Gods certainly don't. Also, this may be their only chance to get the SOJ, which Sliske currently has. Its a major temptation even at low odds. He's been in the power game for a long time, but he seems more like a long term planner and if handing over the SOJ will work out for his longterm plans he my do so.

[Yoko Kurama]

Completely unrelated, but after the quest, Azzanadra and Wahisetal seem to be upset that you didn't side with the Zarosians. But if you sided with Guthix in TWW, it doesn't give you an option to support Zaros, this time, does it? Seems shortsighted on Jagex's part. We are locked into the choices from TWW, even though the circumstances have changed and some of us might have wanted to support Zaros now that Guthix is gone. I thought we were supposed to have choice!  Why do the Zarosians keep telling you after each quest that they were upset with you, but because you have been useful in the past that you might change your mind, when you can't do this?

[Edmundo]

So much speculation. Finally a decent Jagex update that has us discussing the game for the right reasons. 

 

Firstly there were a couple of things that bugged me throughout the quest, Armadyl didn't really do it for me, I always thought of him more like a judge, seems too scrawny. IFLEEN? Why not the leader of the rebel scum/elves Arianwyn? He would seem a more appropriate Elf to stand up for Seren. The lack of post-quest citadel exploration kind of bugged me. Little floating islands around the place, would have been a great opportunity to learn some new Armadyl lore. Also why did Sliske fill a room with smoke bombs that never got used and Sliske seems to lean very heavily on The Joker from Batman. Wasn't too keen on that. I'm sure there's more but I need to replay it whilst writing down my thoughts. Kinda skipped through at 1am and it didn't all sink in. 

 

Oh and one of the gods called the elder staff "The Staff of Armadyl". Pretty sure they all know it's an elder artifact and that Armadyl claimed it for himself. After all Saradomin didn't refer to the Stone of Jas as The Eye of Saradomin.

 

Bonuses: 

 

Loved meeting Icthlarin, have we seen him before? (Can't remember the little helper quest). I do like the underworld lore, very Egyptian. 

The little chats between the gods were brilliant, they really are fallible creatures.

 

Onto the set-up.. Not sure how I feel about potential god deaths. I can see a couple of the lower end of the list going, Bandos hopefully. Maybe Armadyl..  But in the end I reckon Zaros will return and [bleep]-slap Zamorak, Dynasty style. 

 

 

We will no doubt have something to do with the SoJ being the fabled "stonetoucher". The Dragonkin haven't labelled us a false user as they did Lucien, the Kethsians and presumably Sliske.

[Yoko Kurama]

I don't think Jagex is going to kill any more gods or major figures in the near future. Just speculation, no evidence at all to support this, but that's the sense I get.

[helring]

I don't know, Armadyl is kind of how I expected him to be. He is one of the weaker major gods. A bit small but believes in justice and doing the right thing. A bit like Captain America before the serum. 

 

I think a lot of the Armadyl lore will be in the upcoming quest from Raven.

[Yoko Kurama]

Armadyl is a Tier 4 God, on the same level as Bandos, and second only to Zammy and Sara. He's effectively tied for the 3rd most powerful being in RS, that we know of, with Sliske's position being indeterminate, with Zaros, Seren, and the Elder Gods still being away. So definitely a force to be reckoned with. 

[helring]

Armadyl is a Tier 4 God, on the same level as Bandos, and second only to Zammy and Sara. He's effectively tied for the 3rd most powerful being in RS, that we know of, with Sliske's position being indeterminate, with Zaros, Seren, and the Elder Gods still being away. So definitely a force to be reckoned with. 

 

Bandos got knocked down to that tier after the Goblin questline though. So i'd say of the major gods that Armadyl is probably relatively consistently the weakest one. With Zaros and Seren seemingly having been tier 2 before their falls and still decently powerful since. Sara and Zammy still being tier 3 and Bandos only recently becoming tier 4 again. I'm not saying armadyl is a pushover, but he's pretty much the lower end of the majors.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

Armadyl is a Tier 4 God, on the same level as Bandos, and second only to Zammy and Sara. He's effectively tied for the 3rd most powerful being in RS, that we know of, with Sliske's position being indeterminate, with Zaros, Seren, and the Elder Gods still being away. So definitely a force to be reckoned with. 

 

Bandos got knocked down to that tier after the Goblin questline though. So i'd say of the major gods that Armadyl is probably relatively consistently the weakest one. With Zaros and Seren seemingly having been tier 2 before their falls and still decently powerful since. Sara and Zammy still being tier 3 and Bandos only recently becoming tier 4 again. I'm not saying armadyl is a pushover, but he's pretty much the lower end of the majors.

 

 

That's true that Bandos only recently became T4, but the fact that he did basically makes him similar to Arma in power. Mod Osbourne also stated that although Armadyl is on the weaker end of the scale, he still has enough power to hold his own in combat against the others. Basically, a battle between gods, even if of different Tiers, is not an instant one-hit thing; it's a back and forth thing.

 

As for Seren, it is unknown if she can even be reassembled, and that if she is reassembled, what her power will be like. Hard to tell. Zaros on the other hand is Tier 3, in his current form, and is supposed to be stronger if he can become embodied again, meaning if he returned he would be either tied with Zammy/Sara in T3, or be slightly stronger, or go straight back to T2. 

[Sy_Accursed]

On the topic of god alliances

 

Did they really have all that much of a truce or an alliance in the 3rd age?

Or did they just all follow their own aims as always?

 

Having been a Mahjarrat and thus Zarosian Zamorak had a natural cause to go after Zarosians to secure his status.

Saradomin and Zaros were the big 2, with Zaros out of the picture it afford Saradomin a chance to stomp out a weakened kingdom and claim more for himself.

Bandos just likes fighting and proving his strength, Zarosian forces were notably strong and a good target to attack when left leaderless.

Armadyl wants justice and equality and is some what naive and would gladly bandwagon on to a common goal thinking the gods were united.

 

But were they ever united? 3 of the 4 there have purely selfish reasons to focus their attention on taking down Zarosians and as seen in the GWD as soon as that aim was met quite gladly turned on each other without a second wasted.

 

Plus it is entirely different circumstances in this case, for the most part none of them have cause to work towards a common aim. Sliske is promising the stone to whoever kills the most gods.

Bandos loves killing, he's not going to make an alliance or hide when he can happily hack and slash and potentially get a big reward for it.

Saradomin thinks he is the one true god and wants the others gone and has just had a power booster coupled with an ego boost of stopping Zammy. He probably thinks he could take down a few with little effort.

Zamorak obviously hates Sara and with the zaros:zammy tensions has reasons to fight there too.

Plus alliances and inaction pose risks of their own:

If you do nothing and try to hide you may well survive but you are faced with the prospect of another god getting the stone, the stone that can give you so much power you can banish all other gods as Guthix did.

If you try and form an alliance you leave yourself exposed to backstabbing; it's not like there is no precedent backstabbing by those you trust is how Zaros 'died' and Zammy rose. Bandos forces turned on Sara and Arma in the GWD. Sara tried to trick Zammy, Arma and Bandos in GWD too with the amulets given to each side.

 

In terms of pros and cons:

 

Option A - Ignore it and hide

Pros - More chance of survival

Cons - Basically handing supreme power to another on a platter and running the risk of them killing or banishing you anyway.

Possible outcomes - On Gielinor and weak, Banished, Dead - aka all kinda sucky.

 

Option B - Make alliances

Pros - Better chance of beating other gods who lack an ally

Cons - Leave yourself highly exposed to being killed by backstabbing and risk dying in the fight.

Possible outcomes - Victory, killed by backstabbing, On Gielinor and weak, Banished, Dead - So there's 1 good outcome, but there's a lot of bad outcomes too and the options are expanded by the potential of being backstabbed

 

Option C - Go it alone.

Pros -  Can't be backstabbed

Cons - Less power against higher gods/alliances.

Possible outcomes - Victory, On Gielinor and weak, Banished, Dead - Of all the options this gives the best ratio of good:bad possibilities (A being 0:3 B being 1:4 C being 1:3)

 

So unless you can 100% secure a 100% water tight alliance with 100% certainty of no backstabbing by far the safest option is to go and give it your all and since none of the gods can really trust each other or like each other...

[Yoko Kurama]

On the topic of god alliances

 

Did they really have all that much of a truce or an alliance in the 3rd age?

Or did they just all follow their own aims as always?

 

Yes they did. The lore makes it unequivocally clear that there was an alliance at various times in the history. Not something accidental or coincidental where they all just ended up doing the same thing, but rather very conscious and intentional alliances. Like the one where they all banded together to re-imprison Nex. Or the joint Saradominist-Zamorakian campaign against the Senntisten which did not halt despite Wahisetal's best efforts to turn the Zamorakians and Saraominists against each other  -- they must have had a relatively decent level of trust.

[Alg]

Yes they did. The lore makes it unequivocally clear that there was an alliance at various times in the history. Not something accidental or coincidental where they all just ended up doing the same thing, but rather very conscious and intentional alliances. Like the one where they all banded together to re-imprison Nex. Or the joint Saradominist-Zamorakian campaign against the Senntisten which did not halt despite Wahisetal's best efforts to turn the Zamorakians and Saraominists against each other  -- they must have had a relatively decent level of trust.

...It would be really cool if the next few quests in this chain gave you the option to build an alliance between the gods against a superpowered Sliske.

[Sylpheed]

The only speculation I'm going to offer is this. I will be very surprised if the eclipse from Zanaris isn't the major event that precedes Zaros' return.

[Yoko Kurama]

The only speculation I'm going to offer is this. I will be very surprised if the eclipse from Zanaris isn't the major event that precedes Zaros' return.

 

I have considered that, but both Wahisetal and Azzanadra basically regard Sliske as a traitor and as having abandoned the Zarosian cause in their post-quest dialogue. And supposedly Azzanadra is the only person in contact with Zaros. Unless of course, Wahiesetal are lying/covering up a scheme, or perhaps they don't know of some scheme that Sliske has hatched with Zaros -- I'd say he may in for himself alone (though he still carries the Zarosian symbols). 

[helring]

 

The only speculation I'm going to offer is this. I will be very surprised if the eclipse from Zanaris isn't the major event that precedes Zaros' return.

 

I have considered that, but both Wahisetal and Azzanadra basically regard Sliske as a traitor and as having abandoned the Zarosian cause in their post-quest dialogue. And supposedly Azzanadra is the only person in contact with Zaros. Unless of course, Wahiesetal are lying/covering up a scheme, or perhaps they don't know of some scheme that Sliske has hatched with Zaros -- I'd say he may in for himself alone (though he still carries the Zarosian symbols). 

 

 

Zaros, as the puppetmaster, may have several schemes in play at once to return. If I was in his place I wouldn't rely on only one scheme in case it falls through. So, I could see him giving Sliske one task and Azzanadra another and keeping them separate. This could also go further into the unpredictability of Sliske. Have even Azzanadra think he's gone too far and yet have Sliske still be completely loyal.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

The only speculation I'm going to offer is this. I will be very surprised if the eclipse from Zanaris isn't the major event that precedes Zaros' return.

 

I have considered that, but both Wahisetal and Azzanadra basically regard Sliske as a traitor and as having abandoned the Zarosian cause in their post-quest dialogue. And supposedly Azzanadra is the only person in contact with Zaros. Unless of course, Wahiesetal are lying/covering up a scheme, or perhaps they don't know of some scheme that Sliske has hatched with Zaros -- I'd say he may in for himself alone (though he still carries the Zarosian symbols). 

 

 

Zaros, as the puppetmaster, may have several schemes in play at once to return. If I was in his place I wouldn't rely on only one scheme in case it falls through. So, I could see him giving Sliske one task and Azzanadra another and keeping them separate. This could also go further into the unpredictability of Sliske. Have even Azzanadra think he's gone too far and yet have Sliske still be completely loyal.

 

 

Yes I allow for that option in my last post. I do think it would be odd, though, for Zaros to keep Azzanadra out of the loop; he's basically the most fanatically loyal Zarosian, ever. So it's possible, though, somewhat (not completely) unlikely. 

[helring]

 

 

 

The only speculation I'm going to offer is this. I will be very surprised if the eclipse from Zanaris isn't the major event that precedes Zaros' return.

 

I have considered that, but both Wahisetal and Azzanadra basically regard Sliske as a traitor and as having abandoned the Zarosian cause in their post-quest dialogue. And supposedly Azzanadra is the only person in contact with Zaros. Unless of course, Wahiesetal are lying/covering up a scheme, or perhaps they don't know of some scheme that Sliske has hatched with Zaros -- I'd say he may in for himself alone (though he still carries the Zarosian symbols). 

 

 

Zaros, as the puppetmaster, may have several schemes in play at once to return. If I was in his place I wouldn't rely on only one scheme in case it falls through. So, I could see him giving Sliske one task and Azzanadra another and keeping them separate. This could also go further into the unpredictability of Sliske. Have even Azzanadra think he's gone too far and yet have Sliske still be completely loyal.

 

 

Yes I allow for that option in my last post. I do think it would be odd, though, for Zaros to keep Azzanadra out of the loop; he's basically the most fanatically loyal Zarosian, ever. So it's possible, though, somewhat (not completely) unlikely. 

 

 

Azzanadra also seems to have a bit more of a noble streak in him though. Maybe Zaros wants to keep Azzanadra separate from some of the dirty work. I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[strilmus]

it almost feels like zaros only exists as a figure that other people seem to place their hate or loyalty upon

 

and i mean literally only exists because of it, to the point where my question is if his power is primarily based on the acknowledgement of his existence, which would explain a lot

 

like why you see him flickering in the room when you pledge your allegiance to him, and why it was so easy to persuade the mahjarrat to follow him (when he represents a major portion of their motivation), and why zamorak is so goddamned freaked out about him that he doesn't even want to mention his name, and why everybody attempted to purge his influence so strongly when he was gone, and why all of his gear didn't bear his name up until it became impossible to deny the existence of his followers, and their regained strength

 

it's entirely possible that zaros was stronger than the other gods because they were feeding him with their attention and it's impossible to defeat somebody who gets stronger the more you rely on what he represents, similar to the stone of jas and the dragonkin

 

although if that's the case, perhaps sliske has other OTHER plans, ones that take that into account

 

however, if sliske is truly a god, then he would be fueled by mistrust and deceit, which is exactly what he's introducing into everything, and all of this leading up into the eclipse would basically give him a massive level of power, as the shadow realm crosses into ours, and the hearts of all are bathed in darkness

 

(a bit overdramatic isn't it)

 

it's beginning to look like runescape's gonna be [bleep]ed up pretty bad, and the only ways to stop it is if a god becomes strong enough to oppose sliske (unlikely since the more fighting that gods participate in, the stronger sliske's going to get in relative influence regardless of his current ability), or zaros regains enough strength to retake his reins, or the godless manage to take control of the stone of jas (enabling them to banish everybody, as covertly slipped into the quest dialogue), or a really, really unlikely turn of events allows all of the gods to band together to prevent sliske from winning and remain in a truce that allows them to stay in gielinor without trying to [bleep] each others shit up

[Quorra]

Haven't read the thread but;

 

Any chance this fight for the stone of jas will be a world event?

[Troacctid]

If the question is ever which god would win in a fight, then what we really need to know is which god is the most popular? Because there is no way Jagex is going to kill off a god without a world event like the Battle of Lumbridge.

 

 

Completely unrelated, but after the quest, Azzanadra and Wahisetal seem to be upset that you didn't side with the Zarosians. But if you sided with Guthix in TWW, it doesn't give you an option to support Zaros, this time, does it? Seems shortsighted on Jagex's part. We are locked into the choices from TWW, even though the circumstances have changed and some of us might have wanted to support Zaros now that Guthix is gone. I thought we were supposed to have choice!  Why do the Zarosians keep telling you after each quest that they were upset with you, but because you have been useful in the past that you might change your mind, when you can't do this?

 

Do they say that even if you signed up with the Zarosian emissary?

[Yoko Kurama]

If the question is ever which god would win in a fight, then what we really need to know is which god is the most popular? Because there is no way Jagex is going to kill off a god without a world event like the Battle of Lumbridge.

 

 

Completely unrelated, but after the quest, Azzanadra and Wahisetal seem to be upset that you didn't side with the Zarosians. But if you sided with Guthix in TWW, it doesn't give you an option to support Zaros, this time, does it? Seems shortsighted on Jagex's part. We are locked into the choices from TWW, even though the circumstances have changed and some of us might have wanted to support Zaros now that Guthix is gone. I thought we were supposed to have choice!  Why do the Zarosians keep telling you after each quest that they were upset with you, but because you have been useful in the past that you might change your mind, when you can't do this?

 

Do they say that even if you signed up with the Zarosian emissary?

 

Yup. Even if you do all the tasks (as I did). The main gripe is that you should be allowed to side with Zaros if you sided with Guthix during TWW (especially since the Zarosians allow for this possibility).