14-Jul-2014 — Legacy Mode Launch, Global Combat Improvements and Gear Guide

[Steph]

Double post

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

You never had to ability spam and still don't. That's like saying legacy is attack spam

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities.

I don't count full manual as spamming, it's utilizing the options to optimize your damage output. Spamming implies using abilities without any thought process on how different abilities work together.

 

 

Just because it's thoughtful doesn't mean it's not spamming. You learn the best rotations (which should take all but two seconds) and then you spam those reflexively. EoC is most definitely spamming, hell, the whole point is that the basic unit is special abilities (as opposed to autoattacks). 

 

This cannot be denied, semantics aside, that EoC is all about key mashing (a common term amongst EoCer's). 

[Steph]

I deny it.

[Urza285]

 

 

 

 

You never had to ability spam and still don't. That's like saying legacy is attack spam

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities.

I don't count full manual as spamming, it's utilizing the options to optimize your damage output. Spamming implies using abilities without any thought process on how different abilities work together.

Just because it's thoughtful doesn't mean it's not spamming. You learn the best rotations (which should take all but two seconds) and then you spam those reflexively. EoC is most definitely spamming, hell, the whole point is that the basic unit is special abilities (as opposed to autoattacks).

 

This cannot be denied, semantics aside, that EoC is all about key mashing (a common term amongst EoCer's).

I dont know... should i use dibilitate or barricade if im attacker and am up for provoking? Obviously dibilitate. Its button mashing if the ability effects are purely for dps.

 

 

Nope... not ability mashing.

[Alg]

Nope... not ability mashing.

Except for lower-key combat. That's the divide here, I think.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

 

 

You never had to ability spam and still don't. That's like saying legacy is attack spam

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities.

I don't count full manual as spamming, it's utilizing the options to optimize your damage output. Spamming implies using abilities without any thought process on how different abilities work together.

Just because it's thoughtful doesn't mean it's not spamming. You learn the best rotations (which should take all but two seconds) and then you spam those reflexively. EoC is most definitely spamming, hell, the whole point is that the basic unit is special abilities (as opposed to autoattacks).

 

This cannot be denied, semantics aside, that EoC is all about key mashing (a common term amongst EoCer's).

I dont know... should i use dibilitate or barricade if im attacker and am up for provoking? Obviously dibilitate. Its button mashing if the ability effects are purely for dps.

 

 

Nope... not ability mashing.

 

 

DPS is one of the most important aspects of combat, particularly at high level PVM. Say RoTS or KK or Rago, most of the players on the team are DPS, and even those who aren't (tanks) have to focus on DPS at times. What does this consist of? You ask someone, or find out yourself the best rotations for each phase/part and repeat them reflexively. It is definitely ability mashing.

 

At low level combat, say slayer, you still need to spam abilities if you want fast kills, but you don't have to necessarily stick to a rotation, because they will die quickly. That was the picture pre-revolution.

[sees_all1]

Been PKing in F2P for most of my time on RS since legacy. They seem to adjust 2h damage every day (yesterday they seemed to increase it), which makes PKing even more risky.

 

Seems in F2P that using anything other than a 2H weapon is a waste of time. Pre EOC you'd use a scimitar to maximize damage, then try to finish with a 2H for one big lucky hit.

 

Also it seems the death mechanic might have changed on teleport. Way back you could still get hit after a tele, you'd die and drop all your stuff for the person that killed you. Pre EOC the hit wouldn't count in the teleport animation. Now you'll get hit after the teleport, but you'll get a gravestone instead of outright dying. Saved me a couple sets of rune.

[V O R K]

Been PKing in F2P for most of my time on RS since legacy. They seem to adjust 2h damage every day (yesterday they seemed to increase it), which makes PKing even more risky.

 

Seems in F2P that using anything other than a 2H weapon is a waste of time. Pre EOC you'd use a scimitar to maximize damage, then try to finish with a 2H for one big lucky hit.

 

Also it seems the death mechanic might have changed on teleport. Way back you could still get hit after a tele, you'd die and drop all your stuff for the person that killed you. Pre EOC the hit wouldn't count in the teleport animation. Now you'll get hit after the teleport, but you'll get a gravestone instead of outright dying. Saved me a couple sets of rune.

 

haha I know right, that's been so for awhile though. Barely escaped MB few months back and I just died when I pulled lever

 

thank you safescape

 

I just do corrupt D long -> corrupt d spear. That's a bit like before but I just leave if it becomes 2h spam

[Urza285]

 

 

 

 

 

 

You never had to ability spam and still don't. That's like saying legacy is attack spam

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities.

I don't count full manual as spamming, it's utilizing the options to optimize your damage output. Spamming implies using abilities without any thought process on how different abilities work together.

Just because it's thoughtful doesn't mean it's not spamming. You learn the best rotations (which should take all but two seconds) and then you spam those reflexively. EoC is most definitely spamming, hell, the whole point is that the basic unit is special abilities (as opposed to autoattacks).

 

This cannot be denied, semantics aside, that EoC is all about key mashing (a common term amongst EoCer's).

I dont know... should i use dibilitate or barricade if im attacker and am up for provoking? Obviously dibilitate. Its button mashing if the ability effects are purely for dps.

 

 

Nope... not ability mashing.

DPS is one of the most important aspects of combat, particularly at high level PVM. Say RoTS or KK or Rago, most of the players on the team are DPS, and even those who aren't (tanks) have to focus on DPS at times. What does this consistent of? You ask someone, or find out yourself the best rotations for each phase/part and repeat them reflexively. It is definitely ability mashing.

 

At low level combat, say slayer, you still need to spam abilities if you want fast kills, but you don't have to necessarily stick to a rotation, because they will die quickly. That was the picture pre-revolution.

You are generalizing how players handle combat situations. If you were just button smashing it wouldnt matter what you used or what phase it is. People usually refer to those who button smash because they are hitting random buttons without knowing how it will effect the situation.

[V O R K]

In tekken if you press one wrong button or wrong movement input you get severely punished (possible to lose over half of your healthbar)

 

Other then a bad voke and forcing KK phase at wrong time which punishment is there in RS for all the abilities? Is there a specific punishment to a specific wrong ability? Personally i'd love to see the abilities triple in numbers at the moment but seeing as players couldn't even get past stuns because they're oh so difficult I doubt we'll see much evolvement.

 

How do KK mechanics work now since stuns are gone by the way?

[Alg]

In tekken if you press one wrong button or wrong movement input you get severely punished (possible to lose over half of your healthbar)

 

Other then a bad voke and forcing KK phase at wrong time which punishment is there in RS for all the abilities? Is there a specific punishment to a specific wrong ability? Personally i'd love to see the abilities triple in numbers at the moment but seeing as players couldn't even get past stuns because they're oh so difficult I doubt we'll see much evolvement.

Perhaps if the game was built from the ground up around ability combat, that might work.

 

Runescape just needs to be an action RPG, I think.

[Ammako]

RuneScape was built with several flaws that the Gower brothers didn't anticipate since they didn't expect it to become this big.

For every little thing they add on top of that system, it becomes that much harder and/or tedious to fix.

 

For example, the tick system and Attack/Strength being separate skills for Melee (while Magic and Ranged have their "Accuracy" and their "Damage" skill in one.)

 

We could attempt to fix those issues *right now*, but it would cause certain problems short-term, such as receiving updates much less often due to the team having to reprogram the game engine from the ground up to remove the tick system (would take a very long time since everything revolves around ticks) and people crying because of changes to the Attack and Strength skills.

 

But in the long term, it would be pretty good for the game. The tick system is fairly restrictive in what they can do with the game, but in order to get rid of it we would probably have to accept receiving much less frequent updates so that they can focus on upgrading the engine. I think in the long term this would be a very good thing, but I'm pretty sure there would be an uproar in the community if they had to go for months, if not years with few updates (not to mention all the people who would complain about the removal of the tick system.)

[V O R K]

Wouldn't mind a 

 

"What are we working on?" every week over a bandaid every day/week to be honest :P

[Hedgehog]

Man, I could write a book about everything that the Gower brothers did wrong. Jagex could not feasibly fix their game without scrapping everything.

[V O R K]

Ex. Someone with 75 strength is hitting 325. Same as someone with 99 strength.

Ex2. Someone with 75 ranged is hitting 285. Same as someone with 99 ranged.

 

This is based on seeing max hit splats. While it seems like the numbers resemble what someone with 99's should hit, it is surprising to see people with much lower levels hitting the same. 

 

Was this intended? Thanks for reading and for your responses.

 

Edit: Perhaps one way to fix this would be to apply a damage "reduction in PvP" % based on levels so Tierscape can be maintained for PvM? The higher level you are in Ranged/Magic/Attack/Strength, the lower that damage reduction is.

 

Update: In less than 1 day, I have built an F2P attack pure with the following stats:

CB - 32

ATK - 50

Str - 4

Def - 4

HP - 39

Pray - 31

 

I have not lost a single fight due to the fact I've seen myself hit 253 using Rune 2H and the Level 31 Strength/Damage prayer. I stopped pking because I don't want to gain an Attack level from all the killing. It's fun, but I'd rather people who have spent months and maybe years get rewarded in Pking rather than a character made in less than a day.

 

If people hated pures before, this is even worse. I made the account simply to show how messed up the Tier system is especially in F2P.

-----------------------------

 

 

I knew it was bad, I didn't realize it was this bad

 

that's really sad actually

[Ammako]

It's not as much the tier system than how they implemented it.

 

If they had stats work the exact same way as they did pre-EoC, then they could have had a tier system without necessarily making it extremely unbalanced in certain situations.

(Keep in mind that the tier system basically only means that weapons/armour of the same levels are equal and that higher level equipment is always better than lower level equipment.)

 

For instance, using the pre-EoC damage formulas, with a Rune 2h sword, 4 Strength and Ultimate strength, your max hit would have been 36.

Then get 50 Strength and your max hit becomes 147.

 

 

Right now, this is how the system works:

 

 

 

Weapon has 167 base damage. With 99 Strength, this only increases to 223.

 

This means I would have 167 base damage at 1 Strength, only increased to 223 at 99.

 

Pre-EoC, my max hit at 1 Strength with a Godsword would have been 41. At 99 Strength, this would have been increased to 341

 

Something needs to be done.

[Ambler]

It was a lot worse before, strength used to be ~5% of your damage, after I made that 75 attack pure and showed one of the Legacy team how OP it was it got changed to ~30% strength level- Which is still pretty bad, and if I get members on that account again I could probably take on a few people that are level 60+, Currently 44 combat running around with a Sara Sword/AGS

[Oddish DIY]

Why dont they make strength level work the same way as ammo works for ranged and spell level for magic?

[GloryIce]

I have just returned to RS after this update. But how does the pking work now? Like what happends if I use legacy mode, and my enemy use eoc?

[Ambler]

The main pking worlds are Legacy only, so you shouldn't have any issues if you stick to them.

However if you do run into someone using EoC? You could get lucky with a spec and kill them, but the majority of the time they'll end up killing you.

[V O R K]

Activity at revs in every world ^-^

[Sy_Accursed]

Why dont they make strength level work the same way as ammo works for ranged and spell level for magic?

So make strength append the damage value to an item that gets its accuracy from another stat/tool?

 

That doesn't seem to be a means to 'work the same' - ranged and magic are like that because their power is the sum of the attack: the weapon and the spell/ammo, for melee the weapon is all one thing.

 

Besides in terms of a skill functionally strength has a defined role - it boosts damage, it is just independent from the accuracy boosting attack where as magic and range are accuracy and damage boost in 1 stat. To give strength some other arbitrary function wouldn't make things more equal or even or similar.

 

The simplest "fix" by far for strength is to take the damage boost component of magic and ranged and apply them to the skill.

Attack, Ranged and Magic can then be the skills that hone your with specific weapons and improve accuracy.

Strength can be the skill that hones your physical and mental strength allowing you to inflict more damage - be it by swinging a sword harder, pulling a bow tighter, or holding a spell together better to get more power from it.

[Sorator]

The simplest "fix" by far for strength is to take the damage boost component of magic and ranged and apply them to the skill.

Attack, Ranged and Magic can then be the skills that hone your with specific weapons and improve accuracy.

Strength can be the skill that hones your physical and mental strength allowing you to inflict more damage - be it by swinging a sword harder, pulling a bow tighter, or holding a spell together better to get more power from it.

I really like this idea, but I feel like it won't happen because it's such a big change from the current & former systems.

[Veiva]

Since I'm tired of clogging up the screenshot thread, I'll post on the more relevant thread:

 

Well, I tried to like Legacy, even though I voted no in the power to the player vote. I really did, thinking it would add more players, or bring back the wilderness, whatever.

 

But it ruined my favorite activity in the game. Now, with much less skill, players can achieve the same rewards I managed. I thought Legacy wouldn't impact EoC like this? It would be on par with revolution? Sure. Whatever. Legacy has the up front DPS boost that EoC doesn't have--that immediately makes it better for weaker monsters and other activities that involve switching gear (e.g., tormented demons).

 

I understand this sounds kind of elitist but it's annoying. I refined my strategy and ability usage at tormented demons. It took lots of research and investigation. Now some 'noob' (for lack of a better word) can rival my DPS/KPH in a fraction of the time. That's not right.

 

Now tormented demons are worthless moneymakers for me. Even if I manage to keep up (or even improve) my rates, dragon limbs have hit the lowest they ever have (sub-10m). This means I only make 5-5.5m gp/hr at 120 KPH.

 

"Well, find a different moneymaker!" OK, sure. I can't play RS without being interrupted every 30 mins or so. How am I supposed to manage Vorago, or Rise of the Six, when I may have to leave the team mid-battle? Tormented Demons were the perfect boss for me. I didn't depend on anyone else. I could log off easily every 5 minutes. And they were rewarding. I like big drops, where the golden beam pops up--not this QBD crap.

 

The challenge was worth the reward, and it fit my play style perfectly--but now it's not.

 

I hope Araxxor is worth it. I really do.

[Urza285]

Hey watch what you say about my queen!

 

I understand your pain. I am hoping araxxor makes things a mix up. From watching the bts its looking like the araxxor fight is quite customizable and on par with the kalphite king.