Sorry, Comrade, but Price Controls Don���¢�¢â�š�¬�¢â�ž�¢t Work

[qeltar]

Even if this article is well-written, it's come out too soon -- you don't have enough information to accuse Jagex of "controlling" prices.

 

 

I don't? :)

 

 

 

I go to the Grand Excruciation and want to sell an item for a price that I think is fair. And the system tells me nope, I must sell for Jagex's pre-set price. That's price controls, period.

 

 

Consider selling or buying those items in a crowded server, such as World 1, 2, or 6.

 

 

I could have sold every one of them in minutes either in World 2 or on the forums. No exceptions.

 

 

No one told you to sit there and wait for your stuff to sell. That's fallacy #1.

 

 

If I want to sell something, I want to sell it in a reasonable period of time. I had items sitting for sale for over 12 hours at the lowest possible prices and they didn't budge. There are only 6 slots, and if they are filled I can't do anything, so that's why time matters. In contrast, I have infinite "slots" in World 2 or on the forums.

 

 

 

The GE was *supposed* to be something that made buying and selling easier, not a royal pain in the behind. But Jagex considers market control more important than a functional exchange.

 

 

This is still a free market, it's now just centralized and the "natural" balance is done automatically. You're not seeing this, why?

 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

Because it is NOT a free market. Free markets let buyers and sellers choose their own prices NOW, not in a day or a week or a month or after some Communist Party Chief at Jagex decides to adjust the price.

 

 

If you don't realize it, let me draw a parallel -- Worlds 1 and 2 could be seen as "centralized", as that's where most players get their deals, sell new stuff, and so forth and so on. Those worlds balance themselves out naturally as well, as per supply and demand. So does the Grand Exchange -- based on supply and demand from the players that use it.

 

 

A functional market depends on the ability to buy and sell based on CURRENT market conditions -- not with prices adjusting by 5% a day, which means many items will take weeks to adjust in price, only to see the price they were adjusting to change and the whole thing start over again.

 

 

Okay, in response to the first of your statements, Jagex hasn't made up any numbers. Those numbers are based on what players have traded it for, or what players deem the value to be, and the ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâñ5% is based off of that. How could you know so much about the game's economics but miss that crucial point...?

 

 

I don't know what game YOU are playing, but there were countless examples provided yesterday that show very clearly that Jagex DID make up many of the numbers.

 

 

 

When's the last time you saw someone sell a dragon shield left half for 700k?

 

 

For your second statement, a wild pie was nominally 10K. After the BTS, it'd probably stay around 10K (most would elect to train their slayer anyway). If someone needed for a quest, maybe 11K. Keep in mind that it only takes 85 Cooking to make one, and neither getting the level nor getting the parts are really hard (the only "hard" part would be the Chompies. Everything else is sold in general stores or found very easily).

 

 

You missed the point entirely, which is that supply and demand of finished goods and components can change quickly. A system with hard price controls cannot adapt to this and that means shortages and other problems.

 

 

If you wanted a free and unhindered market in RuneScape, something as nominal as a willow log might shoot up to 2K each, or Magic Logs could go as high as 20K a pop, and no one would step in to save it because it's a free and unhindered market. The law of Supply and Demand would fix those prices, but things would still be radically out of control.

 

 

Everyone brings up this boogeyman -- the only problem is that we have years of history that show it is false.

 

 

 

Until it decided to become "Economy Control Central" yesterday, Jagex constantly beat into our heads "the players control prices" and also SPECIFICALLY said that it is not against the rules to try to buy or sell for whatever price one wants to choose.

 

 

 

So... why weren't willow logs selling for 2k or magic logs 20k on the forums?

 

 

 

Simple: nobody would buy them. And the same would be true here.

 

 

 

If they wanted to prevent really gross excesses, they could have put REASONABLE limits on prices. 5% is not reasonable.

 

 

The 5% flex was a necessary move.

 

 

It was necessary for Jagex to continue its program of taking control of the economy, ruining what had been one of the most interesting parts of the game. And that's all it was needed for.

[bobocop]

Good point Jason.

 

 

 

Myself and just about every other person I know in-game having been waiting for the GE to come out to sell their wares. There is a huge influx of sellers at the moment and not enough buyers. The GE reaction will be a reduction in prices. I think it will all even out eventually.

 

 

 

I am very happy with this update so far. I sold heaps of torn pages yesterday that were taking up precious bank space. The best part about it was I didn't have to attempt to log on to world 2 repeatedly and then waist my time typing over and over that which I was selling.

 

 

 

Runescapistan FTW!

[qeltar]

 

I was actually worried about Jagex removing direct trades until yesterday. Then I realized, how can runescape possibly function without it, even with loot share and assist system. What would happen if I wanted to hire a bunch of people to help me with something, double nat running or anything like that. What if the 50 nats is above the maximum trade limit? What if we have a armadyl team and get a hilt drop? How will we share it if it requires trading 30m+ to each of the team mates? Sorry, but this just won't work.

 

 

Based on what we've seen in the last two weeks, here's how it will work.

 

 

 

1. They will put limits on trading that they feel are okay for "most players".

 

 

 

2. A whole bunch of players, especially veterans and high-levels, will find that the way they have always played has been ruined and will complain.

 

 

 

3. Jagex will ignore them, saying it is "for the good of the game".

 

 

 

If you don't believe that, just look at the duel arena. ;)

 

 

Back to the main point of the article; Qeltar, what you want is a grand exchange where there is no preset "market price"? I understand changing the range to maybe +/- 20%, but a free market will not completely work if most people have no idea what an item is worth and no clues from the grand exchange helping them! Imagine that you are a low level trying to sell some grimy herbs in the grand exchange, but you have no idea what the price of them is, and you want to figure it out yourself. How do you do it? I guess you could start high and lower your requested price by a little bit each time until people start buying it. However, this is tedious and definitely fool proof, plus you would need to do it for EVERY item you want to sell in the Grand Exchange. Don't say to look up the price on the forums, if you did, you might as well sell it there too.

 

 

 

 

This is a valid question, and one that has an easy answer.

 

 

 

Efficient markets are based on timely and accurate information. As long as you provide people with that information, they work well, even for people who are new to the market.

 

 

 

In reality, the idea of the GE (not the stupid price controls, the market itself) is no different than a stock market. Now, suppose you've never bought stock before and you want to buy 100 shares of Intel. What do you do?

 

 

 

Simple. You go online and look at a past history of the price of Intel stock. Then you check the current market ticker and see what Intel stock is trading for. You then decide to either buy at the current selling price, or put in an order for a price you feel more comfortable buying at, if the price goes down to that level.

 

 

 

The exact same thing could (and SHOULD) have been done here. If you want to buy, say, an Armadyl godsword, you type in the name of the item in a browsing feature, and it shows you the past transactions, along with current offers to buy or sell. You decide what you want to do based on that information.

 

 

 

And Jagex could put in REASONABLE controls so this wouldn't be abused... just like real stock markets have those controls. But they don't say "Intel price today is $80 so you can only buy or sell it from $76 to $84".

[Avid43]

Qeltar - Don't get me wrong here, u communicate your points extemely well and i have no doubt that you are a person of reasonble intelligence. Which is why i can not understand how you manage to get everything so wrong. I disagree with almost everything you post. I am aware i don't post here often, but i do read almost every thread on here thorughly, most days, and have read many of your posts from which i have this opinion of what you write...

[idunedain]

Qeltar,

 

 

 

I think you have made your point with this article. YOU believe Jagex wants control and power over their game. YOU believe the GE is not a free market because the prices are controlled by Jagex. YOU believe this is bad, as well as other control-oriented updates by Jagex (e.g., Duel Arena).

 

 

 

As seen from the replies you have received in this thread, there are some who agree with you and there are some who disagree. You try to argue your oppinion, they do the same with theirs. It is a good discussion and I congratulate you for starting it up.

 

 

 

But I don't understand something. Yes, you made your point. Yes, you are trying to argue with those who disagree. But for how long? You can't possibly expect everyone agrees with you, can you? What is even worse, in my oppinion, why do you feel the need to state your point over and over again on all the related threads? (e.g., http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=719636). And heck, there are a lot of these threads!

 

 

 

My point is, give it a rest, man! I understand your frustration and disappointment related to some of the recent updates. So I understand your desire to let it out via all these posts and critics. But calm down, breathe, enjoy the game you say you like. You have made your point, several times, maybe it's time to let it go (until the next update)? Unless of course you have an obscure reason to keep going and going and going at Jagex...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, this is my personal oppinion, this is what I resent when reading the threads on the recent update. You are carrying civilized conversations in all these threads and most likely you will carry similar ones in the future. But for me, I'm bored and tired to see you stating over and over this point of view of yours. Feels more like a propaganda than a desire to sparkle intelligent arguments.

[shakaz]

You're so full of yourself and deluded that its frightening. First off, for all your complaining you can still hawk wares at world 1/2 or the forums and sell your stuff instead of having it sit for 12 hours in the GE until the prices correct in the GE.

 

 

 

Second, it's not the stock market and you aren't looking to buy shares of INTEL a corporation. Its a massive general store more than a stock market and your looking to buy your milk and cookies, needle and threads.

 

 

 

Third, as many have said there is no free market anywhere in the world so to think that Runescape should be any different is ridiculous.

 

 

 

Lastly, because its a game and is limited by the flaws of its own creation your one sided economic theory cannot fit all aspects of it. A real consumer society has an ultimate goal of selling finished goods and products with the supply and demand starting at the consumer lvl and working its way back along the supply chain. However, in runescape there's very little demand for most finished goods compared to the demand for raw materials.

 

 

 

All you sound like is a disgruntled merchant selling snake skin oil or Simpson & Son's patented revitalizing tonic.

[SwreeTak]

Thanks for the great article. I can't really understand why Jagex doesn't change some prices, exactly as you. But the GE is still a great update :D

[Storm]

I've gots a craving for milk and cookies :|

[icat2000]

Love it. Could never be bothered logging into World 2 or buying off forums unless I really required the item.

 

 

 

I love that you can't put the wrong money up (I don't have to count all those 0000000000 now).

 

 

 

Also I love the fact I have been able to complete 90% of my treasure chest items.

 

 

 

Also I could easily sell all my extras within a reasonable time frame.

 

 

 

Even better is I can sell while I'm off online. How beautiful is that.

 

 

 

Great update. Probably the best one in my opinion.

[Shadowcheval]

Everyone brings up this boogeyman -- the only problem is that we have years of history that show it is false.

 

 

 

Until it decided to become "Economy Control Central" yesterday, Jagex constantly beat into our heads "the players control prices" and also SPECIFICALLY said that it is not against the rules to try to buy or sell for whatever price one wants to choose.

 

 

 

So... why weren't willow logs selling for 2k or magic logs 20k on the forums?

 

 

 

Simple: nobody would buy them. And the same would be true here.

 

 

 

If they wanted to prevent really gross excesses, they could have put REASONABLE limits on prices. 5% is not reasonable.

 

 

 

First off, everyone brings it up because that's the same arguement that has been used to stop Adam Smith's theories for decades. Years of history that show it false? Name one modern country that has completely deregulated trade within, and is suceeding within the global market. In fact, history has shown that a deregulated economy is almost always seized by those that have the money and power to do so. Why do you think the British controlled 1/4 of the land in the world at one point?

 

 

 

Your expectation of an "unhindered market" was very naive. Jagex has consistently shown that it will not deregulate the market, in various ways. You have to understand that even if Jagex had created said "unhindered market", they could have then decreased drop rates of valuable items, or increased the amount of time necessary to cut/mine/burn/etc. Jagex has always controlled the economy, and the will always do so.

[go461]

Yay! my money is worth something, but I feel sorry for the merchanters who didn't sell in time :(

[backstreetboy]

Qeltar:

 

 

 

This is one of the first articles i disagree with you, i see the GE as a great idea, even if they could change from 5% to 10%, it did`t RUIN Runescape, if you disagree with one price they have put in the GE, simple, go to world 2 or any other place and buy/sell there.

 

 

 

I dont want to sound so rude but, you are not accepting other thoughts, i have read through the thread and you argue with every player that disagrees with you, and this is not the first time that happens.

 

 

 

If you were always right runescape would have been ruined like... 32 times by now, but no, there are over a million members yet who play runescape and have fun with it.

 

 

 

Of course there are some ridiculous prices but not most of them.

[Will H]

I think that everyone is not giving this whole thing enough time. The GE was a problem because everyone wanted to use it in the first few weeks, which resulted in serious imbalances because the prices are, as qeltar put it, 'artificial'. Jagex determined them, and by my understanding, the prices did not accurately reflect the current status of the economy. This was made worse because everyone was buying/selling at false prices in order to try out the system.

 

The effectiveness of the GE will truly be realised when the hype actually dies down, and prices become more sensible as the same number of people as before will still continue to use the GE, and those people will determine sensible prices. As a result, the GE prices will become more and more accurate, and the GE will become more integrated with the current market which literally exists outside the GE walls.

 

However, for the first month, I can confidently say that the majority of the base prices do not reflect the actual supply and demand which is prevalent when not everyone is buying/selling just to try out the new system.

 

 

 

And yes, it isn't a free market. However, it is (There is probably an official term for this) a variable market. The prices are on a +/- 5% restriction, but they change over time. The degree of how 'free' this market is is proportional to the time frame you refer to. Look at data over 5 days, and you are looking at strict price fixing. Look at a few weeks, and you are looking at a restricted market. Look over the next year or two, and it's almost a free market. Anyway, even though they said that they will update the prices at around once a day, I think this will be a smart move if they change it to something more frequent like twice or thrice a day once the hype has died down, because the current prices are artificial.

 

 

 

Qeltar, you do wonderful articles, and I suggest that you do a second article on the same subject, but a month on. Let's see how this turns out.

[Soma2035]

There's something else that really has me wondering. I don't think the GE is run completely by players right now. I've literally put up an offer for 500 strange fruits at the minimum price... and I was sold all of them. Another item that usually took me hours on end to sell for 250k-300k, I was able to sell half a dozen of in 2 hours for 350k.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I've had 4 granite shields, 9 rune warhammers, and 12 rune c'bows in there for over 24 hours, and not one has sold. All are at minimum price, and previously could be sold in about 15-20 minutes each.

 

 

 

The price cap is absolutely stupid. I need the money, and I'm willing to part with my items at 25% underprice. Stopping people from undercutting each other undermines the idea of supply and demand.

 

 

 

The GE isn't based on supply and demand. That is a fallacy. The GE is based on set prices, that are adjusted periodically to emulate supply and demand.

[qeltar]

I just spent some time trying to buy and sell about 30 different items that I was interested in. Of those, only 2 resulted in transactions -- and 1 of the 2 is because I didn't care about the item and dumped it.

 

 

 

Will this get better in time? Sure. Will it ever really work well? I don't think so.

 

 

 

Jagex claims that they did "extensive research" to come up with its prices. This is simply not believable. As just one example, rune boots.. they started out at what, 180k? Rune boots haven't been 180k since GWD came out in what, August?

 

 

 

They are either lying or their "researchers" are flatly incompetent.

 

 

 

But there's another aspect that has been lost in this whole shuffle, a real wasted opportunity that I didn't even bring up in my article: the creation of NEW markets will never happen with this system.

 

 

 

What do I mean? I'll give you an example.

 

 

 

I'm a fairly high level player and I like to make pies. But I HATE making pie shells. I would be very happy to pay someone 1k a piece to make pie shells for me. If the Grand Excruciation actually worked like a real market, I could put in a buy order for pie shells at 1k each. Someone might then notice the buy order and say "wow, that's good money for a level 20 doing nothing but adding water to flour" and they'd make the shells and sell them to me.

 

 

 

But right now pie shells are 23 gp each. And there's no way for me to communicate to the masses of possible pie shell makers that I'm willing to pay 50x that for them.

 

 

 

There are countless other examples. Whole new industries could have been created, ways of making money and sharing resources and saving time.

 

 

 

Instead we get a crippled system that adjusts so slowly as to be nearly useless, run by "researchers" that have proven that they are out of touch with how the game is played and don't really understand what drives prices except for the most common items.

[RedLeader]

If you have such a problem with the game - and your recent posts have lead be to believe that you do - why do you not just quit?

[neonihilist]

The law of supply and demand is a western concept that doesn't apply to non-capitalist cultures.

[qeltar]

If you have such a problem with the game - and your recent posts have lead be to believe that you do - why do you not just quit?

 

 

 

What, and miss your clever repartee? :P

[RedLeader]

That was a better reply than I would have thought I would get

[icat2000]

I just spent some time trying to buy and sell about 30 different items that I was interested in. Of those, only 2 resulted in transactions -- and 1 of the 2 is because I didn't care about the item and dumped it.

 

 

 

Such as? You didn't tell us what those 30 items were.

 

 

 

I myself found no trouble purchasing a whole range of Level 1, 2,3 treasure trail items. Only ones I couldn't purchase was white elegant.

 

 

 

These are some of the items I managed to buy (within a 2-3 hour period)

 

- rune heraldic helms and kites

 

- Trimmed blue d hide chaps and body

 

- Trimmed rune armour (kite, plate, helm)

 

- Dark Cavalier

 

- Zammy armour (plate, kite)

 

- Sara armour (kite)

 

- Guthix armour (plate, kite)

 

- Glory amulet trimmed

 

- Guthix, Sara, Zammy vestments

 

- Zammy, Guthix, Croziers

 

- Guthix Mitre, Cloak,

 

- Zammy Mitre

 

- Zammy, Guthix Stole

 

- Zammy Blessed D hide (body, chaps, vambs)

 

 

 

Sold

 

- Various pieces of armour

 

- Rune bars

 

- Black Mask x 4 (Slayer one)

 

- Dragon boots

 

- Whips

 

- Karils armour

 

- And other bits and pieces

[Rsslayer96]

I think arguing over this is just ridiculous, I say just play the game and let Jagex do the managing of it. It's pretty easy to just sit behind your computer and say "wow, Jagex really screwed this one up" or something like "Jagex hates us all" yet how many people would be able to provide an awesome game themselves. Even if you could, you could certainly not satisfy every single person who plays the game. I've heard from real life friends say that the Exchange is great and both of them have made a good chunk of gold from it so far.

[Aidos Drakon]

You're all idiots. This is the first day of the GE. They dont know what exactly is going to be a good idea, because they cannot see the future. It is easy to say now what was stupid to do...but maybe they saw some good reasons to do it? Also the only thing that is different is that sudden changes wont be able to happen. For instance, if a new monster started dropping dragon chains fairly frequently, chains would drop like mad. Jagex says that if a ton of trades are in the bottom 5%, then the "Average" price will move down. They didn't say it will happen within the course of 12 hours or however long you monitored it before writing this article...it could take a few days or maybe a week for the price to come down.

 

 

 

Give it some time you freaking numbskulls. Atleast 24 hours...jesus.

 

 

 

+1 =D>

[Shadowcheval]

I just spent some time trying to buy and sell about 30 different items that I was interested in. Of those, only 2 resulted in transactions -- and 1 of the 2 is because I didn't care about the item and dumped it.

 

 

 

Will this get better in time? Sure. Will it ever really work well? I don't think so.

 

 

 

Jagex claims that they did "extensive research" to come up with its prices. This is simply not believable. As just one example, rune boots.. they started out at what, 180k? Rune boots haven't been 180k since GWD came out in what, August?

 

 

 

They are either lying or their "researchers" are flatly incompetent.

 

 

 

But there's another aspect that has been lost in this whole shuffle, a real wasted opportunity that I didn't even bring up in my article: the creation of NEW markets will never happen with this system.

 

 

 

What do I mean? I'll give you an example.

 

 

 

I'm a fairly high level player and I like to make pies. But I HATE making pie shells. I would be very happy to pay someone 1k a piece to make pie shells for me. If the Grand Excruciation actually worked like a real market, I could put in a buy order for pie shells at 1k each. Someone might then notice the buy order and say "wow, that's good money for a level 20 doing nothing but adding water to flour" and they'd make the shells and sell them to me.

 

 

 

But right now pie shells are 23 gp each. And there's no way for me to communicate to the masses of possible pie shell makers that I'm willing to pay 50x that for them.

 

 

 

There are countless other examples. Whole new industries could have been created, ways of making money and sharing resources and saving time.

 

 

 

Instead we get a crippled system that adjusts so slowly as to be nearly useless, run by "researchers" that have proven that they are out of touch with how the game is played and don't really understand what drives prices except for the most common items.

 

 

 

As a former QA person, I can guarantee that someone on that portion of the team screwed up with the price research. The way I see it, there are two possible ways this could have happened.

 

 

 

1) The programmers originally inserted values that were much higher, and QA knocked off a large chunk.

 

 

 

2) QA did their price research at the beginning of design (let's say, August) and did not think that many objects would shift greatly in value.

 

 

 

Of course, neither of these possibilities make us feel better, but my guess would be that one of them was true.

 

 

 

On a side note: qeltar, you seem to be ignoring my other posts. I was hoping to get some feedback there.

[superson]

Qeltar, post on the forums...

 

 

 

You could have done that before the GE came out, no need to incorporate it with the GE. Add in your title that you're paying 1k each, and since people won't be searching for it, keep it bumped.

[Promise]

I just spent some time trying to buy and sell about 30 different items that I was interested in. Of those, only 2 resulted in transactions -- and 1 of the 2 is because I didn't care about the item and dumped it.

 

 

 

Will this get better in time? Sure. Will it ever really work well? I don't think so.

 

 

 

Jagex claims that they did "extensive research" to come up with its prices. This is simply not believable. As just one example, rune boots.. they started out at what, 180k? Rune boots haven't been 180k since GWD came out in what, August?

 

 

 

They are either lying or their "researchers" are flatly incompetent.

 

 

 

But there's another aspect that has been lost in this whole shuffle, a real wasted opportunity that I didn't even bring up in my article: the creation of NEW markets will never happen with this system.

 

 

 

What do I mean? I'll give you an example.

 

 

 

I'm a fairly high level player and I like to make pies. But I HATE making pie shells. I would be very happy to pay someone 1k a piece to make pie shells for me. If the Grand Excruciation actually worked like a real market, I could put in a buy order for pie shells at 1k each. Someone might then notice the buy order and say "wow, that's good money for a level 20 doing nothing but adding water to flour" and they'd make the shells and sell them to me.

 

 

 

But right now pie shells are 23 gp each. And there's no way for me to communicate to the masses of possible pie shell makers that I'm willing to pay 50x that for them.

 

 

 

There are countless other examples. Whole new industries could have been created, ways of making money and sharing resources and saving time.

 

 

 

Instead we get a crippled system that adjusts so slowly as to be nearly useless, run by "researchers" that have proven that they are out of touch with how the game is played and don't really understand what drives prices except for the most common items.

 

 

 

There is dark place in the abyss called the RS Forums. Deep within the forums there is a market place. Go there young grass hoppa and you will find your pie shells.

 

 

 

lol

 

 

 

Seriously, the forums still exist, ya dig? If the GE doesnt have the current price, the forums is practically a Manuel GE.