qeltar Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 (Originally published on TruthScape and copied here in full for the benefit of the Tip.It community and to spur discussion.) The TruthScape Soapbox - Issue #3 - Sorry, Comrade, but Price Controls DonÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t Work Published: November 26, 2007 Today Jagex released the Grand Exchange (GE), a new method of buying and selling RuneScape items that was much anticipated by many players. I plan to write a full report on the exchange, but have decided that I should wait until later this week to publish it. There are two main reasons for this. First, I want to wait until the usual initial period of excitement settles down, so I can observe the price changing mechanisms in the GE in action. Second, I anticipate that the GE will be the subject of a fair bit of tweaking by Jagex over the next few days. What I want to talk about now, though, is one aspect of the new exchange that I find rather disappointing. This has nothing to do with the exchange itself, really; itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s not about its mechanisms or how it works. Rather, it has to do with JagexÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s questionable decision to use the GE to implement controls on the RuneScape market. While I can understand that there are valid reasons for trying to limit the freedom of the marketplace in the game, I think that the effort being made here largely limits the effectiveness of the Grand Exchange, and will create more problems than it solves. The Law of Supply and Demand Cannot be Repealed The idea behind the Grand Exchange is excellent: an efficient marketplace where you can list offers to buy or sell items, with the game taking care of the transaction for you automatically. In my tests, I found that the GE is a superb way of buying certain less common items that are difficult to find using conventional trading means. It also lets you easily sell a large number of a particular type of item to many buyers, or buy a large quantity from many sellers, without the need for world hopping or many trades. Unfortunately, though, IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve only actually been able to buy and sell about 10-15% of the items I wanted to trade. The other items I have had listed with buy or sell offers for many hours, but no transactions ever take place. IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve had these calquat tree seeds on the GE, offered at the lowest possible price, for hours. The trading range hasnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t budged, so I simply cannot sell them. Not much of a marketplace. The reason for this is not a flaw in the Grand Exchange, but rather with JagexÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s decision to implement price controls within the GE. Simply put, Jagex maintains ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åmarket priceÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà Qeltar, aka Charles KozierokWebmaster, RuneScoop - Premium RuneScape Information for Expert Players -- Now Free!Featuring the Ultimate Guide to Dungeoneering -- everything you need to know to get the most of the new skill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakitsym_Rose Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I understand this is helpful to lots of people but it is quite obvious you are trying to advertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qeltar Posted November 26, 2007 Author Share Posted November 26, 2007 I understand this is helpful to lots of people but it is quite obvious you are trying to advertise. I've been posting articles here for a while, and people like them. I copied the entire article here so nobody even has to click through to my site. If you think I've done something wrong, then feel free to take it up with the Tip.It mods -- they make the rules. Qeltar, aka Charles KozierokWebmaster, RuneScoop - Premium RuneScape Information for Expert Players -- Now Free!Featuring the Ultimate Guide to Dungeoneering -- everything you need to know to get the most of the new skill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakitsym_Rose Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I understand this is helpful to lots of people but it is quite obvious you are trying to advertise. I've been posting articles here for a while, and people like them. I copied the entire article here so nobody even has to click through to my site. If you think I've done something wrong, then feel free to take it up with the Tip.It mods -- they make the rules.Oh I didn't mean to come off as you were doing somethign wrong this article is quite interesting and a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peronix Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Qeltar, you fail to realize that there ARE buyers, even for items that seem like they simply won't sell for the lowest possible price. There are perhaps hundreds of other players putting up such items as Calquat seeds for the lowest possible price, and only a few who are buying... if you keep the seeds in the GE for long enough, all of the other people who are selling for that price will have sold theirs, and buyers will receive their seeds from you. You just have to be patient. I put up nats for almost the lowest possible price, and it took a while before buyers started getting their nats from me, but when they did my 120k didn't last long. Also, if the low demand and high supply trend keeps up, the prices will eventually lower. It dosen't update very often to stop people from undercutting each other just to sell items faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omali Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Always a fan of the articles Qeltar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EugenyG Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 As an economist, your logic is completely valid. But Jagex ain't dumb. They are well aware of the consequences of their actions. But they choose to take them anyways, because for them, economy takes a backseat to political reasons. They want the power to control, and the more, the better. Jagex wants the power of those who destabilize or exploit the economy. The biggest part of that is gold farmers, but also includes large-scale powermerchants and pretty much any other power-*. That's why the price controls. That's why the DA update. They don't want troublemakers, how hard is that to understand? Just like any authoritarian country's leadership hates dissidents, so does Jagex, but unlike a real country, you don't have the moral ground to demand freedom and democracy, because you are in the private property of their company, free to leave at any time or make your own game with your own rules. Jagex wants to curb the influence of foreign sites. They always cause trouble. Kids use them, get trojans from some, and whine on their forums. Kids use the walkthroughs and then whine that quests are too easy. Kids trade personal contacts on other sides and then Jagex gets threatening letters from their moms. That's why we had the clan chat update, so less people use external chats or forums. That's why we now have the GE, so less people use external trading sites. That's why saying any URL in game will get you banned even if its perfectly safe. Banning is easy. Fixing kids' own stupid mistakes is harder. Why not take the easy path? Jagex wants to make the game "fair" and "balanced" to all players, including the younger ones. Do you honestly believe they try to enforce the "13 and up" rule? That rule is just in place to protect them from legal liability. The game is catered towards the 8-15 year range, and while adults can certainly play it too, don't complain when you see yourself in a nanny environment. The nanny environment is the core of what RS is about, and you can take it or leave it, but not change it. To that end, "easy" moneymakers such as winning millions in a duel or powermerchanting are seen as "against the spirit of the game", and thus steps are being taken to curb them, as we have seen with the Duel Arena, GE, and numerous other updates. This is only the beginning of what's to come, though. Now, I have no intention to moralize with Jagex and say how good or evil they are. This is their game. You have only one choice, a Hobson's Choice: to play it (with all strings attached), or not to play it. Jagex has a niche market. If you don't like being part of that niche, find yourself another game. Jagex will certainly not mourn losing a few "enlightened freethinkers" like yourself, because as I mentioned, they make their money from 10yo kids who would rather be nanny-fed, and don't really mind the lack of their freedom (they are too young to even understand the concepts of what you are getting across). People like you cause more trouble to Jagex then benefit, and they would certainly not bother catering the game to how you see it fit. To generalize, if Jagex were to lose the entire target audience of TruthScape from RS, they'd be more happy than sad. Nobody likes people being a pain in the butt to their business model and control in their own game. Live free or die. First option is exhausted, so guess what remains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighterhwk Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Nice article, as always. However, I think what Jagex is trying to say is that only the price that you can sell things for is limited to the 5% margin, and that the correction for the price happens instantly. In the KB article, all it says is, "The market value of an item is automatically recalculated roughly once per day." There is no information saying that it can only change by a small amount-perhaps the price can change from 500 to 2000 gp in a single day for an item? Anyways, good job on writing this article so quickly! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triforceelf Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Sit back and take a deep breath. Sure the market controls are annoying (kinda) but it does makes sense. I personally would have them removed, but for now they work just fine really. I had 10k BS up at max price for a very long time, but when they started selling they all sold very quickly. The GE is a first come first served deal, the longer something is up the higher up in the buy que it is. I know several people who have sold calaquat seeds to use your example, it just took them a really, really long time. The only thing that annoys me about this update is the shops reflect the GE, which destroys buying things from shops cheaply, but oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danqazmlp Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 You just seem too stubborn in your explination of why things arent selling. There is more than just the price issue: Wating in line - it seems the GE goes by first come first served, if you put your items up for sale first, yours will be selected for sale first. Demand - calquat seeds? really, did many people buy them before? because not many people probably want to buy them now. Supply - for today, many people like yourself have solditems like that to the store, linking in to the waiting in line making your items not sell. 'LetÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s deal first with the claim that items donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t sell because ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Ånobody wants themÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà Want to be my friend? Look under my name to the left<<< and click the 'Add as friend' button!Big thanks to Stevepole for the signature!^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarrett73 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 I understand this is helpful to lots of people but it is quite obvious you are trying to advertise. I think that that is incredibly ignorant, posting an article from a wbsite isnt neccisarally wrong or advertising, this article helped me out considerable, it was a good read, be normal and dont accuse people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBowser Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 I love your article, and I love the update. It is wonderfull. But, I dissagree with Jagex's 6-item limit. Make us only have a 6 - slot buying size, and unlimited selling space. (or 100, 200, etc.) And to the people saying bankspace? Make you have to have another of the item you were trying to sell in your bank. A very good update, which made me happy, as I finnaly bought some sweetcorn. ^ ^ That's what it takes to be a hero, a little gemof innocence inside of you that makes you wantto believe that there still exists a right and wrong,that decency will somehow triumph in the end.--Lise Hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlordjl Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Unless Jagex loosens their price controls, the GE will ultimately fizzle in a couple weeks, after the novelty dies down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winner5555 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Every time I see a long article that doesn't have a lot of pictures, I always just go back to general discussion...I was about to do that, then I noticed the name "Qeltar" in the top left, and settled in and read the whole article. Very interesting, I haven't been there yet, but it sounds interesting, and i'll have to check it out. Yet again, nice article. 621st person to achieve 99 slayer on December 3rd, 2007177th person to 99 summoning on June 21st, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latinoking Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Q you got some very good points. You just love showing how much of a bs job Jagex is doing don't you? Some of my friend have been able to sell stuff then for more then they would have if they would have constant type in world 2 so this Grand Exchange does has it's up. I really hate the rune prices. and also some of the limits that did on other items. Sorry, but couldn't they just look at zybez price guide? The most accruate out there? (Even though idotic price mulatiptiors try to raise prices in hope of higher profits) I am Teh_King[My dA][My Last.FM][My Twitter] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qeltar Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Thanks for the comments. A few quick responses... EugenyG: You're astute, and probably right in several regards. I suppose that I prefer to give benefit of the doubt rather than assuming everything Jagex does is about grabbing power, but perhaps I am just more naive than I should be. I know that I'm a gadfly and that Jagex likely doesn't care about my views and would prefer that I disappear, but that's not going to make me do it. fighterhwk: Valid point, but large fluctuations will create the very instability they claim to want to avoid. Peronix, Triforceelf and Danqazmlp: If you notice in the article I mention examples of shortages and lines. They are caused by the price controls. The only reason anyone has to wait for hours to sell nats or calquat seeds is because there aren't enough buyers. It's the exact same situation as the gas shortages, only in reverse. So this doesn't negate my point, it reinforces it. In a healthy, functional market you can sell nearly any common item in a few seconds. That's what I had hoped the GE would be, instead of the cumbersome nuisance it is now because of Jagex's desire to control the market. Qeltar, aka Charles KozierokWebmaster, RuneScoop - Premium RuneScape Information for Expert Players -- Now Free!Featuring the Ultimate Guide to Dungeoneering -- everything you need to know to get the most of the new skill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoe325 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 I think you may be overreacting this time. The price will ajust with time. Players cant use the grand exchange? Fine they will use normal trades at normal prices, which will modify the value of the item in the grand exchange. So eventually every single item will have the right price Quest cape obtained at combat level 83, march 07. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseHole Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 The only reason anyone has to wait for hours to sell nats or calquat seeds is because there aren't enough buyers. It's the exact same situation as the gas shortages, only in reverse.True. But there is no waiting in line, as long as this is used as intended. You put your offer up there, do something else, and eventually your transaction will go through. If you're trying to move large amounts of things through quickly, you're probably out of luck. Jagex obviously intended it to work this way, because they only allow 6 items at a time, and you can't immediately resell what you bought (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchainmail Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 What would be the solution? No price controls, so we end up with the "selling log 2 mill" fiasco? It is foolish to say "this is a problem" without saying "this is how to fix it." I'm not trying to be critical, but unless i missed something, you never say how to fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredz Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 As an economist, your logic is completely valid. Personally speaking, as I'm on a good way for a master in economy I cant really say that this is logical. This piece looks to me like real life politic propaganda written by a neoconservative American. Not that it is a bad thing in general. But when you write pieces like this for a online game it should be a little bit more objective than this, and remember that this is a game, and not real life. There are huge differences here that I wont even get into but in short: Comparing Real life with Runescape so closely wont do "it". Unconfirmed rumors by several people talking to J-Mods claim that JageX have settled on a 24 hour market fix with a max/min raise at 5% of current price. Once some of the poorly set prices adjust the next few days I can't see that this is a bad thing. Its not likely that nature runes (example) in a single day in the future will fluctuate more than 5% down or up. Newly introduced items in the future will be another case. But I'm sure they will find a way to integrate those in a nifty way once that time comes around. If it means something at all they have at least made this system pretty safe from being abused by RWT or price manipulators. It also save those poor souls that would mistype a zero or two when buying or selling something. Don't get me wrong qeltar. I usually like your work. But this article is just ridiculous. :( 21 lag piles, 4 Pjs, 2 Party hat kills, 67 newbs teached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latinoking Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 What would be the solution? No price controls, so we end up with the "selling log 2 mill" fiasco? It is foolish to say "this is a problem" without saying "this is how to fix it." I'm not trying to be critical, but unless i missed something, you never say how to fix the problem. +1. I hate to say your right mchain. But this is like another Micheal Moore Movie. I am Teh_King[My dA][My Last.FM][My Twitter] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlordjl Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 He said the way to fix it was to raise the cap to 20% above or below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneron Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 What would be the solution? No price controls, so we end up with the "selling log 2 mill" fiasco? It is foolish to say "this is a problem" without saying "this is how to fix it." I'm not trying to be critical, but unless i missed something, you never say how to fix the problem. +1. I hate to say your right mchain. But this is like another Micheal Moore Movie. :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qeltar Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Fredz, if you are studying economics, I would think you should be able to come up with some logical counter-arguments to my article, rather than just hand-waving it off with some (very bad :) ) guesses as to my political beliefs. mchainmail, as Dragonlordjl said, I suggested a wider cap and more frequent updates. But take a step back... why do we need price controls at all? Have we had them in World 2 or the forums? Nope. So why are they needed here? Qeltar, aka Charles KozierokWebmaster, RuneScoop - Premium RuneScape Information for Expert Players -- Now Free!Featuring the Ultimate Guide to Dungeoneering -- everything you need to know to get the most of the new skill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseHole Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 So why are they needed here?To avoid price manipulation. Read the update. Edit: There is a limit to the amount you can buy or sell items for in the Grand Exchange, which is generally set at 5% above and below the 'market price', and it is impossible to buy outside of these boundaries. This will create a stable economy that cannot be abused by players who seek to manipulate prices to the disadvantage of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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