Is God real post your thoughts!

[tryto]

Very true. That is also the only problem I have with religion. If you want to go to church, worship, read, sing, and believe then that is your business. But when you take religion and try to force it on others or do questionable things in the name of your religion then there is a problem.

 

 

 

Agreed. I live in California, and I'm still in shock that prop 8 actually passed. I'm not one to bash religion, but prop 8 went way too far. Encroaching on the basic rights of others is wrong, no matter which way you look at it. It makes me giggle that so many religious people actually thought they were fulfilling their God's will. Does God not teach us to hate the sin, not the sinner?

 

 

 

 

 

According to the bible, they were. Sodom and Gomorrah; God smote an entire village, letting only one family survive after much pleading from Abraham. He told Abraham to kill his son to test his faith; wouldn't a kindly god test Abraham's compassion instead? He flooded the entire world with a flood. He sat idly by whilst his chosen people, Jews, went through the holocaust. He creates people in order to send them to hell. Even if he existed, I would not worship him at all. There are two main ways to be Christian. You can do theological gymnastics, saying that half the bible doesn't apply or is symbolic, yet still worship it(which I have no respect for, as you profess to believe in the God of the Bible, where you are actually making him in your desired image) or you can be fundamentalist, and knowingly worship a God who is malevolent and is the biggest mass murderer of all time, AND believe that the earth is less than 15,000 years old (I think most of them think fossils are there to test your faith :P )

 

 

 

 

I will not fully address argument, since it is obvious we will continue to disagree on the point. It does, however, seem to come down to the definition of omniscient. The problem with definitions is that they can be different for various and have slightly different meanings. Also, omniscient is an English (or Latin) word, meaning it could and probably does have a slightly different meaning than the original Hebrew and Greek languages in which the Old and New (respectively) Testaments were originally written. So, it comes down to me taking a slightly different turn with omniscient than you.

 

 

 

Yay for verbal gymnastics. Oh, this part of the bible means this, and this part of the bible means that. I'll just ignore this part, and follow blindly this part. Did you see the dictionary definition of omniscient? The Bible says that God is omniscient. Full stop. Are you disagreeing with it? Please answer this part, especially if you only answer part of this.

 

 

 

 

Or I could go deeper into my own faith and say that although God does know what everyone will do, he still has hope and faith that that is not what they will do(I know that doesn't make sense, don't waste your time on that one). Or, how do you know that the future is something that is knowledge. After all, it hasn't happened yet, and therefore does not exist. Before you bring up the easy way out on that one (prophecy), God can act to make prophecies happen in specific ways.

 

 

 

So, he knows what's going to happen, but chooses to ignore his knowledge and hope blindly that they will do something, even when he knows they won't? Heh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the man lying in the street, if the two (you finding him and God helping him) are not mutually exclusive, then perhaps God manipulated certain events in your life(perhaps sending a thought to you that delays you just enough to miss the bus and have to walk home) to ensure that you find the man and help him.

 

 

 

What if I chose not to help him? Did God do that too, after all, he manipulated my life and created me, knowing that at some point I would be apathetic towards this man.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, as for my own faith, I became Christian because I was raised Christian, but I stayed Christian through an extensive faith journey started when I doubted my faith in God when I was around ten and continues until this day, the details of which are extremely personal and I do not wish to share over the internet.

 

 

 

So what you're telling me is that if you were born Jewish, you would be Jewish. If you were born in a certain time period, you would follow Zeus. If you were born in another, you would follow Ra. What makes your monotheistic God better than any of these? What reason can you give me to follow yours? You obviously don't believe in magic pixel fairies, why do you believe in this? There isn't any evidence for either.

 

 

 

 

 

You still haven't satisfactorily answered Epicurus, but that's alright, I don't think anyone can :P

[Saru Inc]

As to why god lets evil happen, god gave people the right to choose (free will), and we still bear the scars from that broken choice. Everytime i ask god why these things happens, why we experience the broken quality of life, i feel a soft whisper saying 'you tell me why these things happen. you are my body, my hands, my feet. What are you doing to love a world that has broken itself?'

 

 

 

God is Omnimax, according to the bible. He knows everything that will ever happen and has happened, and can do absolutely anything. Despite this, he created humanity, KNOWING that they would be seduced by a serpent. He created the serpent, KNOWING that it would seduce Eve. He created the tree of knowledge, KNOWING that it would be eaten despite his telling man not to(This is still ridiculous, as since humanity at this time has no knowledge of good or evil, and thus doesn't know that eating the apple is bad. "God told them so" is not a good reason). So, I come to the conclusion, that should he exist, he deliberately inflicted these "scars" upon you, on purpose, in full knowledge. That is, of course, if he existed, which based on this is not logical.

 

 

 

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able? Then he is not omnipotent, directly contradicting the bible.

 

If he is able, but not willing? Then he is evil, as he allows evil to happen even though he could easily stop it, as well as CREATING that evil, in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that it would be evil.

 

If he is able and willing? Then evil should not exist.

 

If he isn't able or willing? Then he's not God.

 

 

 

~Epicurus.

 

 

 

Just as an aside, there is no mention in the bible whatsoever of the serpent being Satan. Not at all.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the thing, yes, he knows all that will happen, but he warns you. And so he wants you to tyrust him and not break his rules, if you do, oh well, face the music. It is called tough love. And also, you have no way to tell that 'God saying so is ridiculous,' because, who says God didn't walk the Earth before there was sin? And nothing you said makes his existance illogical. It's hard to explain, so I'll provide an analogy.

 

 

 

The kid and his parents live in a city, no lakes or anything, simply building. The kid is doing dishes and such, and notices that every time he drops something that is not hollow (as in cups) it sinks to the bottom immediately, the heavy stuff at least, such as glass plates. Then his mom says 'we're going on vacation to the ocean!' and the kid, who is still rather young has no idea what it is. So the mom explains what the ocean is, the kid asks what they'll do and she says play in it. Play in it? Surely she means like a bath tub, she says no, it's deeper than that. What? So surely you'll sink, correct? The child wonders, but still, the mom replys 'no, you'll float on the top.' This of course makes no sense whatsoever to the child, so he goes to the sink, and experiments with it, he tests plates, bam they sink, silverware, everything. He gets to the cups, and it floats for a while, but still, it sinks. So naturally, the kid thinks the mom is lying, there's no way it's possible. To his knowledge, he has tested it, and it's all crazy talk. So they pack up, and go to the beach, and the parents get in and have fun, and the mom asks the kid to come in, he sees them float, but being obstinate that it's not real he refuses to go in. But eventually his mom and dad coax him in, and he floats, and he wonders why he ever douibted it, and wonders how anyone can deny the fact that humans float.

 

 

 

Now, people will say "well of course, floating is scientifically proven." Well, that's not the point, to the child (humans in general) his way of science was proven correct. scientifically he proved that no one can float:

 

 

 

Humans are heavy,

 

Glass plates are heavy,

 

Glass plates can't float,

 

Humans can't float.

 

 

 

God or religion in general, is like floating, you can test it all you want, any way you want, but you'll never know what it's like unless you actually experience it yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, to that quote:

 

 

 

God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

First off, Tryto, on your thing with Soddom and Gamorrah, he warned all of them, same with the flood. If a parents warns a child they'll be discipined if they don't stop sneaking cookeis, but they continue to, they disregarded him. And I don't think anyone knows why he lets genocide happen, but just because you don't know why he does something, does not make him 'illogical' and 'non existent.'

 

 

 

And Tryto, regarding your point about the man, then it falls on you, not God for not helping the guy.

 

 

 

Tryto, he just said he stayed Christian because HE DID AN EXTENSIVE JOURNEY. He doubted, but then believed.

[J a m e s]

As to why god lets evil happen, god gave people the right to choose (free will), and we still bear the scars from that broken choice. Everytime i ask god why these things happens, why we experience the broken quality of life, i feel a soft whisper saying 'you tell me why these things happen. you are my body, my hands, my feet. What are you doing to love a world that has broken itself?'

 

 

 

God is Omnimax, according to the bible. He knows everything that will ever happen and has happened, and can do absolutely anything. Despite this, he created humanity, KNOWING that they would be seduced by a serpent. He created the serpent, KNOWING that it would seduce Eve. He created the tree of knowledge, KNOWING that it would be eaten despite his telling man not to(This is still ridiculous, as since humanity at this time has no knowledge of good or evil, and thus doesn't know that eating the apple is bad. "God told them so" is not a good reason). So, I come to the conclusion, that should he exist, he deliberately inflicted these "scars" upon you, on purpose, in full knowledge. That is, of course, if he existed, which based on this is not logical.

 

 

 

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able? Then he is not omnipotent, directly contradicting the bible.

 

If he is able, but not willing? Then he is evil, as he allows evil to happen even though he could easily stop it, as well as CREATING that evil, in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that it would be evil.

 

If he is able and willing? Then evil should not exist.

 

If he isn't able or willing? Then he's not God.

 

 

 

~Epicurus.

 

 

 

Just as an aside, there is no mention in the bible whatsoever of the serpent being Satan. Not at all.

 

 

 

Also, to that quote:

 

 

 

God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

 

Except this analogy is terrible. The kid messes up but gets another chance and isn't punished drastically. On the other hand, if you die while not believing in the right God or gods, you are punished forever and get no second chance. You can't even tell God that now that you have proof he exists, you'll believe in him. But apparently humans only get one chance to make the right choice.

 

 

 

And God already knows which choice we're going to make...

[Howlin0001]

 

Humans are heavy,

 

Glass plates are heavy,

 

Glass plates can't float,

 

Humans can't float.

 

 

Well we can float because we have air inside us while glass plates don't but we will sink given enough time in the water (and a while after we die).

[J a m e s]

 

Humans are heavy,

 

Glass plates are heavy,

 

Glass plates can't float,

 

Humans can't float.

 

 

Well we can float because we have air inside us while glass plates don't but we will sink given enough time in the water (and a while after we die).

 

 

 

Plus, floating has nothing to do with weight.

[tryto]

Here's the thing, yes, he knows all that will happen, but he warns you. And so he wants you to tyrust him and not break his rules, if you do, oh well, face the music. It is called tough love. And also, you have no way to tell that 'God saying so is ridiculous,' because, who says God didn't walk the Earth before there was sin? And nothing you said makes his existance illogical. It's hard to explain, so I'll provide an analogy.

 

 

 

There's something in law, called cruel and unusual punishment. The punishment should fit the crime. Eternal damnation in everlasting hellfire, forever, with no chance of sympathy, is cruel and unusual punishment. You say it's tough love, like a parents? A parent might give a child a detention for a while, but do they ever give them detention for the rest of their lives? Is the punishment for breaking the speed limit life in jail?

 

 

 

That's a horribly analogy, as said up there.

 

 

 

 

And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

Don't give me that. You know as well as I do that you believe God created everything, as well as Lucifer the fallen angel. If God didn't create everything, then that directly contradicts the bible. What created evil then? Did it appear out of thin air? That's you creationists main beef with evolution and the Big Bang.

 

 

 

 

God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

Remember. We're not being punished by evil. If you don't believe in hell, there's no reason for not eating shellfish or pork or coveting, unless you believe it's morally wrong. God is the one who is punishing you for doing those things. Maybe he should try a little harder to convince people not to do evil. Your parents teach you the best you can, then send you into the world to make your own choices. They don't send you out, then if you don't clean your room they come and punish you.

 

 

 

 

First off, Tryto, on your thing with Soddom and Gamorrah, he warned all of them, same with the flood. If a parents warns a child they'll be discipined if they don't stop sneaking cookeis, but they continue to, they disregarded him. And I don't think anyone knows why he lets genocide happen, but just because you don't know why he does something, does not make him 'illogical' and 'non existent.'

 

 

 

But they don't lock him up and torture him for eternity. Cruel and unusual punishment.

 

 

 

 

And Tryto, regarding your point about the man, then it falls on you, not God for not helping the guy.

 

 

 

But God made me and everything I am. He knew that I wouldn't help that guy. Skirting around the issue doesn't help your point. He controls everything, and he sentenced that guy to whatever happens to him. He can't go all "ladeda, I only do good things" when he's directly responsible for genocide in the Bible caused directly by his own hand.

 

There are good samaritan laws in many places. One must help someone in trouble if there's no danger to yourself. Most people would agree that if you don't help someone in trouble when there's no risk to you, it's wrong. Why do you not apply the same principle to God?

 

 

 

 

Tryto, he just said he stayed Christian because HE DID AN EXTENSIVE JOURNEY. He doubted, but then believed.

 

 

 

I used to be christian. I changed when I read the bible.

 

I did an extensive journey. I sincerely doubted my belief of magical pixies under my carpet, but then I believed based on no evidence. Why is one god preferable to another? You guys don't believe in pixies. Why believe in one fictional entity over another?

 

 

 

In addition: How can you justify obeying some of the Bible but not the rest? How can you pick and choose what to believe in, yet still claim to be a christian? I've never heard a good answer to this question, I'm genuinely curious. To me, I was christian, then I read the bible. Since many parts of it has been completely scientifically debunked(young earth, creation instead of evolution, global flood), I started questioning every part of it, and finally came to the conclusion that the idea of a God has been simply concocted.

 

 

 

EDIT: Do you, by any chance, believe that God is good, simply because he's God? I really want an answer to this one too.

[user1991]

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the thing, yes, he knows all that will happen, but he warns you. And so he wants you to tyrust him and not break his rules, if you do, oh well, face the music. It is called tough love. And also, you have no way to tell that 'God saying so is ridiculous,' because, who says God didn't walk the Earth before there was sin? And nothing you said makes his existance illogical. It's hard to explain, so I'll provide an analogy.

 

 

 

The kid and his parents live in a city, no lakes or anything, simply building. The kid is doing dishes and such, and notices that every time he drops something that is not hollow (as in cups) it sinks to the bottom immediately, the heavy stuff at least, such as glass plates. Then his mom says 'we're going on vacation to the ocean!' and the kid, who is still rather young has no idea what it is. So the mom explains what the ocean is, the kid asks what they'll do and she says play in it. Play in it? Surely she means like a bath tub, she says no, it's deeper than that. What? So surely you'll sink, correct? The child wonders, but still, the mom replys 'no, you'll float on the top.' This of course makes no sense whatsoever to the child, so he goes to the sink, and experiments with it, he tests plates, bam they sink, silverware, everything. He gets to the cups, and it floats for a while, but still, it sinks. So naturally, the kid thinks the mom is lying, there's no way it's possible. To his knowledge, he has tested it, and it's all crazy talk. So they pack up, and go to the beach, and the parents get in and have fun, and the mom asks the kid to come in, he sees them float, but being obstinate that it's not real he refuses to go in. But eventually his mom and dad coax him in, and he floats, and he wonders why he ever douibted it, and wonders how anyone can deny the fact that humans float.

 

 

 

Now, people will say "well of course, floating is scientifically proven." Well, that's not the point, to the child (humans in general) his way of science was proven correct. scientifically he proved that no one can float:

 

 

 

Humans are heavy,

 

Glass plates are heavy,

 

Glass plates can't float,

 

Humans can't float.

 

 

 

God or religion in general, is like floating, you can test it all you want, any way you want, but you'll never know what it's like unless you actually experience it yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, to that quote:

 

 

 

God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

First off, Tryto, on your thing with Soddom and Gamorrah, he warned all of them, same with the flood. If a parents warns a child they'll be discipined if they don't stop sneaking cookeis, but they continue to, they disregarded him. And I don't think anyone knows why he lets genocide happen, but just because you don't know why he does something, does not make him 'illogical' and 'non existent.'

 

 

 

And Tryto, regarding your point about the man, then it falls on you, not God for not helping the guy.

 

 

 

Tryto, he just said he stayed Christian because HE DID AN EXTENSIVE JOURNEY. He doubted, but then believed.

 

 

 

 

 

Before we even start debating God we need to know His supposed attributes. Since you Christians like to mix them up so often, please can you clarify whether God is..

 

 

 

Omniscient (and the definition here)

 

Omnipotent (and which type of omnipotence? Absolute, logically possible, "absolutely possible" etc)

 

Outside of time (and does this therefore mean that he cannot change?)

 

Can God "choose"?

 

etc etc etc

 

 

 

Thanks..

[Princess Viola]

1. You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT, be half one religion, half another, due to parents. Religions are beliefs, not genes.

 

 

Actually, you can. If your mom/dad was Jewish, you have to be Jewish. That's why I'm half Jewish, half-Catholic

 

 

 

OT:

 

• 
   
  [*:25zivz3x]People who quote TV shows on a daily basis
   
  [*:25zivz3x]People who say that graphics are all that matters in a game
   
  [*:25zivz3x]People who rate a game based on ten minutes of play

[Dizzle229]

1. You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT, be half one religion, half another, due to parents. Religions are beliefs, not genes.

 

 

Actually, you can. If your mom/dad was Jewish, you have to be Jewish. That's why I'm half Jewish, half-Catholic

 

 

 

You can't be half Jewish and half Catholic! It's not a gene, it's what YOU believe.

[Lenticular_J]

Could you specify which Christian sect you are referring to, please? It would really seem less ignorant.

[tryto]

Could you specify which Christian sect you are referring to, please? It would really seem less ignorant.

 

 

 

Me, or someone else?

[J a m e s]

Could you specify which Christian sect you are referring to, please? It would really seem less ignorant.

 

 

 

Me, or someone else?

 

 

 

Pretty sure she meant the person who posted just before.

[Iamdan]

Before we even start debating God we need to know His supposed attributes. Since you Christians like to mix them up so often, please can you clarify whether God is..

 

 

 

Omniscient (and the definition here)

 

Omnipotent (and which type of omnipotence? Absolute, logically possible, "absolutely possible" etc)

 

Outside of time (and does this therefore mean that he cannot change?)

 

Can God "choose"?

 

etc etc etc

 

 

 

Thanks..

 

 

 

Reminded me of this.

[Ouchy]

1. You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT, be half one religion, half another, due to parents. Religions are beliefs, not genes.

 

 

Actually, you can. If your mom/dad was Jewish, you have to be Jewish. That's why I'm half Jewish, half-Catholic

 

 

 

You can't be half Jewish and half Catholic! It's not a gene, it's what YOU believe.

 

 

 

Then what is to say you can't believe in two Religions? :| It isn't a crime, is it?

[BlueLancer]

1. You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT, be half one religion, half another, due to parents. Religions are beliefs, not genes.

 

 

Actually, you can. If your mom/dad was Jewish, you have to be Jewish. That's why I'm half Jewish, half-Catholic

 

 

 

 

Not to be nitpicking, but the book of Deuteronomy 20:3-4 and Ezra are usually intepreted to only mean matrilinear heritage when it comes to Jewish identity (you can only 'inherit' the faith if your mother is jewish). If you choose to become a person of jewish faith that's another matter.

 

 

 

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35a10.htm#3

 

 

 

Besides, a person doesn't have a religion by birth, unlike ethnicity or gender. You are only what you believe or have been taught. Since being a christian, jew or muslim isn't bound by ethnicity or any other physical characteristic, you can't be born into a religion.

 

 

 

Hell, I should know, because my father is a muslim but my mother is christian. Yet I got baptized in a church at birth (my father didn't oppose). I don't personally follow any religion or consider myself a part of either religion.

 

 

 

Then what is to say you can't believe in two Religions? It isn't a crime, is it?

 

 

 

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 

 

 

Surely it's not a crime, but a major theological conflict in nearly all religions. The above is the first commandment in christianity. If you're a christian you can't simultaneously believe in anything else, similar rules exist in islam and judaism.

[Dizzle229]

Not a crime, but sort of a paradox :|

[BlueLancer]

Not a crime, but sort of a paradox :|

 

 

 

What I find funny is that if we're talking about abrahamic religions and not indigenous/asian/other ones, it's actually not even a paradox.

 

 

 

God, Yahweh and Allah mean the same god that Abraham spoke with and is mentioned in all the 3 holy books of those religions. Yahweh is merely the hebrew word for 'God' just as 'Allah' means 'God' in arabic (and is also the word used by christians living in arabic countries when referring to their own God).

 

 

 

If you're jewish and christian at the same time, or jewish and muslim at the same time, it's not a theological paradox because you still worship the same God. However christianity also reveres Jesus Christ as the son of God which isn't accepted by the other 2 religions as fact, so that can cause conflicts if you worship Jesus instead of God.

 

 

 

Also, if you were to be a jew and a muslim at the same time, you'd have to accept that Muhammad is a prophet, while also believing in Yahweh. Nothing in the torah prohibits simply accepting Muhammad as one of the prophets, some people even intepret Deuteronomy 18:18 as referring to Muhammad.

 

 

 

 

There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his prophet

 

 

 

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

 

 

 

If you were a christian, you could technically also be a muslim at the same time, as long as you believed Muhammad was one of the prophets (such as projected in Deut. 18:18), because you'd still worship the same God. Believing the divinity of Jesus, the trinity, or the audacity of the Qur'an would be your personal matter though.

[Saru Inc]

As to why god lets evil happen, god gave people the right to choose (free will), and we still bear the scars from that broken choice. Everytime i ask god why these things happens, why we experience the broken quality of life, i feel a soft whisper saying 'you tell me why these things happen. you are my body, my hands, my feet. What are you doing to love a world that has broken itself?'

 

 

 

God is Omnimax, according to the bible. He knows everything that will ever happen and has happened, and can do absolutely anything. Despite this, he created humanity, KNOWING that they would be seduced by a serpent. He created the serpent, KNOWING that it would seduce Eve. He created the tree of knowledge, KNOWING that it would be eaten despite his telling man not to(This is still ridiculous, as since humanity at this time has no knowledge of good or evil, and thus doesn't know that eating the apple is bad. "God told them so" is not a good reason). So, I come to the conclusion, that should he exist, he deliberately inflicted these "scars" upon you, on purpose, in full knowledge. That is, of course, if he existed, which based on this is not logical.

 

 

 

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able? Then he is not omnipotent, directly contradicting the bible.

 

If he is able, but not willing? Then he is evil, as he allows evil to happen even though he could easily stop it, as well as CREATING that evil, in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that it would be evil.

 

If he is able and willing? Then evil should not exist.

 

If he isn't able or willing? Then he's not God.

 

 

 

~Epicurus.

 

 

 

Just as an aside, there is no mention in the bible whatsoever of the serpent being Satan. Not at all.

 

 

 

Also, to that quote:

 

 

 

God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

 

Except this analogy is terrible. The kid messes up but gets another chance and isn't punished drastically. On the other hand, if you die while not believing in the right God or gods, you are punished forever and get no second chance. You can't even tell God that now that you have proof he exists, you'll believe in him. But apparently humans only get one chance to make the right choice.

 

 

 

And God already knows which choice we're going to make...

 

 

 

 

 

You're obviously not getting it. And also, it's ytour fault if you don't believe in him. It's not that hard, you don't have to be rich or anything, also, if you're an Atheist, how can it hurt? I mean, if there is a God, then you're safe, but if there isn't...

 

 

 

Howlin, give me a break. The kid doesn't understand that, the kid only knows human adults are very heavy, even heavier than glass plates. James, you don't get it either. Why do I even bother. :|

[tryto]

As to why god lets evil happen, god gave people the right to choose (free will), and we still bear the scars from that broken choice. Everytime i ask god why these things happens, why we experience the broken quality of life, i feel a soft whisper saying 'you tell me why these things happen. you are my body, my hands, my feet. What are you doing to love a world that has broken itself?'

 

 

 

God is Omnimax, according to the bible. He knows everything that will ever happen and has happened, and can do absolutely anything. Despite this, he created humanity, KNOWING that they would be seduced by a serpent. He created the serpent, KNOWING that it would seduce Eve. He created the tree of knowledge, KNOWING that it would be eaten despite his telling man not to(This is still ridiculous, as since humanity at this time has no knowledge of good or evil, and thus doesn't know that eating the apple is bad. "God told them so" is not a good reason). So, I come to the conclusion, that should he exist, he deliberately inflicted these "scars" upon you, on purpose, in full knowledge. That is, of course, if he existed, which based on this is not logical.

 

 

 

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able? Then he is not omnipotent, directly contradicting the bible.

 

If he is able, but not willing? Then he is evil, as he allows evil to happen even though he could easily stop it, as well as CREATING that evil, in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that it would be evil.

 

If he is able and willing? Then evil should not exist.

 

If he isn't able or willing? Then he's not God.

 

 

 

~Epicurus.

 

 

 

Just as an aside, there is no mention in the bible whatsoever of the serpent being Satan. Not at all.

 

 

 

Also, to that quote:

 

 

 

God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do.

 

 

 

 

Except this analogy is terrible. The kid messes up but gets another chance and isn't punished drastically. On the other hand, if you die while not believing in the right God or gods, you are punished forever and get no second chance. You can't even tell God that now that you have proof he exists, you'll believe in him. But apparently humans only get one chance to make the right choice.

 

 

 

And God already knows which choice we're going to make...

 

 

 

 

 

You're obviously not getting it. And also, it's your fault if you don't believe in him. It's not that hard, you don't have to be rich or anything, also, if you're an Atheist, how can it hurt? I mean, if there is a God, then you're safe, but if there isn't...

 

 

 

Howlin, give me a break. The kid doesn't understand that, the kid only knows human adults are very heavy, even heavier than glass plates. James, you don't get it either. Why do I even bother. :|

 

 

 

 

 

Sigh. Pascal's Wager. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s ... Criticisms

 

 

 

1)Assumes life with God is better than life without God.

 

2)Assumes there could only be the Christian God.

 

3)Assumes God rewards faith in fear, rather than worshiping for his glory. Surely a truly merciful and fair God would reward truthfulness to ones self, rather than doing it out of fear?

 

4)If you choose the wrong God, you'd probably get screwed over worse than if you didn't believe in any gods.

 

 

 

Do you know why] I chose not to believe in God?

 

He is a mass murderer.

 

His holy texts make no sense.

 

There is no evidence to suggest his existence.

 

His followers have caused some of the worse events in human history and continue to impede advancements to this day.

 

There are many other religions, many of which make more sense.

 

Many parts of the Bible are flat out wrong, some of which impeded advancements.

 

More parts of the Bible contradict each other.

 

 

 

This is all under God's purview. Since you're obviously going against your bible and claiming we have free will, I'll let it go; I know you'll never agree, the cognitive dissonance must be amazing :P. But since you believe that his holy texts are written by him through individuals, then it falls under his purview that they contradict each other and, frankly, represent him as an amoral, ruthless child, whom I have no desire to worship, should he exist.

 

 

 

Let me ask you these two questions.

 

1) Do you think genocide is wrong?

 

2)Do you think God is good?

[Flyingjj]

Unless someone steps forward and says that this discussion is having an effect on them personally, I am unlikely to continue discussing it beyond this point, as neither of us, nor anyone who has posted recently, appears to be persuadable either way. Not that I expect any concession from either side on any points, but here goes anyway on some of the current points:

 

 

 

In addition: How can you justify obeying some of the Bible but not the rest? How can you pick and choose what to believe in, yet still claim to be a christian? I've never heard a good answer to this question, I'm genuinely curious. To me, I was christian, then I read the bible. Since many parts of it has been completely scientifically debunked(young earth, creation instead of evolution, global flood), I started questioning every part of it, and finally came to the conclusion that the idea of a God has been simply concocted.

 

I know this won't sway you, but nothing I say will. I don't believe that parts of the Bible have been "completely scientifically debunked" nor do I believe that you can pick and choose what to believe/interpret in the Bible. Science can tell me all they want about how things work, but I want why they work. Science can not give me that. Take gravity, for example. Science says that gravity is a force that exists between every two objects in the universe, the strength of which is determined by the mass of each object and the distance between them. It has not been shown (at least in "proven" science, maybe in theoretical science, which is pretty much based on the same thing religion is, speculation) why a force exists between any two objects.

 

 

 

I take everything in the Bible as literal(well, maybe not Revelations, but that's a whole nother bird). If something does not compute, it is not because it is contradicting itself, but because you are not reading it correctly or do not understand the author's intent. Again, I point out differences in languages. Words can be translated with slightly different meanings and translations that have different connotations than the original intent. Don't write this off as "gymnastics," it's a legitimate scholarly argument and fact. You also must realise that the Old Testament and New Testament were written at different times(duh) and after different events. The New Testament fulfills many of the prophesies of the Old Testament and marks the beginning of a new "covenant" with God. Put elequently, we no longer live under the Law (Old Testament), but we live by the Grace of God. You can almost view it as a transformation of sorts. God was a vengeful God in the Old Testament. The people were taught to "fear" Him. But, God knew that he was vengeful and so, when the time was right, sent Jesus to redeem the people from the Law. I guess you could see Jesus as a barrier between God's wrath and human kind. After Jesus's death and resurrection, you see no more instances of God's direct interference in punishing humankind. The New Testament then preaches a gospel of a loving God who has taken pity on his lost and directionless sheep. He then expects to work in the world through those that follow him rather than directly. Does it always happen? No. Do we always hear God's message loud and clear? No.

 

 

 

I guess I have gained something from this discussion. Even as I read these responses I become more and more certain that my interpretation of God's omniscience is the correct one. God sees and knows all possibilities, but the future is never known because it has never yet happened. He knows everything that has happening, is happening, and what will happen (in the sense that since he knows all possibilities he is not surprised). So, when the Bible says "I knew you before you were formed in your mother's womb," he does indeed "know" you because there was even the slightest possibility that you would be born.

 

EDIT: Do you, by any chance, believe that God is good, simply because he's God? I really want an answer to this one too.

 

This was, in fact, my intial doubt that I spoke of. I resolved the matter then (at ten) because I decided it really didn't matter whether he was good or not, He was "God" and therefore good and evil did not really apply. Now I would say that no, I do not believe that God is good simply because He is good. As you have kindly pointed out, at certain times in the history of the Bible, He was quite jealous and vengeful, aspects one would not normally assign to a "good" person. In terms of the Old Testament (where all of God's direct acts of vengence occured), God wanted people to be content with the fact that He created them and they should be thankful for that. He did not need to be "good." Perhaps he became disillusioned with the idea that people would love Him simply because he was God and decided to take pity on them and send a Savior. I don't know His reasons, but after the coming of Christ, God is indeed transformed into this "good" Being that we think of Him as now.

 

 

 

At a certain point, it comes down to a matter of choice of what to have faith in. I don't believe in God because of what the Bible says, but I believe what the Bible says because I believe in God. Certain events have occured in my life that have caused me to have faith in God. Whereas others often choose to assign such occurences to chance or random luck, I assign them to God because I have faith in Him. Others have faith in science or believe that such a thing could happen by chance, but I for many reasons do not. It is a matter of choice, preference, and, if I may, free will. I am the product of my choices.

 

 

 

Oh, and who says I don't believe in pixies... :P

[tryto]

Unless someone steps forward and says that this discussion is having an effect on them personally, I am unlikely to continue discussing it beyond this point, as neither of us, nor anyone who has posted recently, appears to be persuadable either way. Not that I expect any concession from either side on any points, but here goes anyway on some of the current points:

 

 

 

Fair enough. I'm not a 100% strong atheist; I'm a de facto atheist. There is a chance of a God existing, but I'd place it at near enough to nil to make it unimportant. If I experienced a miracle, I could change my mind about the existence of God, but not my contempt and dislike of the Abrahamic Christian God.

 

 

 

In addition: How can you justify obeying some of the Bible but not the rest? How can you pick and choose what to believe in, yet still claim to be a christian? I've never heard a good answer to this question, I'm genuinely curious. To me, I was christian, then I read the bible. Since many parts of it has been completely scientifically debunked(young earth, creation instead of evolution, global flood), I started questioning every part of it, and finally came to the conclusion that the idea of a God has been simply concocted.

 

 

I know this won't sway you, but nothing I say will. I don't believe that parts of the Bible have been "completely scientifically debunked" nor do I believe that you can pick and choose what to believe/interpret in the Bible. Science can tell me all they want about how things work, but I want why they work. Science can not give me that. Take gravity, for example. Science says that gravity is a force that exists between every two objects in the universe, the strength of which is determined by the mass of each object and the distance between them. It has not been shown (at least in "proven" science, maybe in theoretical science, which is pretty much based on the same thing religion is, speculation) why a force exists between any two objects.

 

 

 

Well, if gravity didn't exist, then we wouldn't be able to be here to talk about it. Same with light, energy, etc. But you are right, that is not science's function, and it shouldn't be.

 

So. You believe in the literal worldwide flood, creation of woman from a rib, and a Young earth. Literally?

 

 

 

 

I take everything in the Bible as literal(well, maybe not Revelations, but that's a whole nother bird). If something does not compute, it is not because it is contradicting itself, but because you are not reading it correctly or do not understand the author's intent. Again, I point out differences in languages. Words can be translated with slightly different meanings and translations that have different connotations than the original intent. Don't write this off as "gymnastics," it's a legitimate scholarly argument and fact.

 

 

 

I'll just put in one remark here. Genesis has a very detailed and unambiguous genealogy. From this, it can be taken that, according to the bible, the Earth is less than 12,000 years old, and maybe as little as 2,000. Do you honestly believe that? Yes or no. If you say yes, I won't debate with you anymore; nothing can sway this type of believer, with the multitude of evidence there is now to the contrary. :P

 

 

 

I don't know His reasons, but after the coming of Christ, God is indeed transformed into this "good" Being that we think of Him as now.

 

 

 

James 1:17: Our father....who does not change like the shifting shadows. There are more, but I'm lazy :P.

 

 

 

I like throwing this one in every so often: Matthew 17:20: And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

 

 

 

 

 

I find this especially hard to believe. Does no one have the faith of a mustard seed? Make of it what you will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hide=Very long list of contradictions]1. God is satisfied with his works

 

Gen 1:31

 

God is dissatisfied with his works.

 

Gen 6:6

 

2. God dwells in chosen temples

 

2 Chron 7:12,16

 

God dwells not in temples

 

Acts 7:48

 

3. God dwells in light

 

Tim 6:16

 

God dwells in darkness

 

1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

 

4. God is seen and heard

 

Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/

 

Ex 24:9-11

 

God is invisible and cannot be heard

 

John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

 

5. God is tired and rests

 

Ex 31:17

 

God is never tired and never rests

 

Is 40:28

 

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things

 

Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21

 

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all

 

things

 

Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

 

7. God knows the hearts of men

 

Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3

 

God tries men to find out what is in their heart

 

Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

 

8. God is all powerful

 

Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26

 

God is not all powerful

 

Judg 1:19

 

9. God is unchangeable

 

James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19

 

God is changeable

 

Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/

 

Ex 33:1,3,17,14

 

10. God is just and impartial

 

Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25

 

God is unjust and partial

 

Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

 

11. God is the author of evil

 

Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25

 

God is not the author of evil

 

1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

 

12. God gives freely to those who ask

 

James 1:5/ Luke 11:10

 

God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving

 

them

 

John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

 

13. God is to be found by those who seek him

 

Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17

 

God is not to be found by those who seek him

 

Prov 1:28

 

14. God is warlike

 

Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15

 

God is peaceful

 

Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

 

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

 

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

 

God is kind, merciful, and good

 

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

 

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

 

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long

 

Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4

 

God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute

 

Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

 

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,

 

sacrifices ,and holy days

 

Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9

 

God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,

 

sacrifices, and holy days.

 

Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

 

18. God accepts human sacrifices

 

2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39

 

God forbids human sacrifice

 

Deut 12:30,31

 

19. God tempts men

 

Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13

 

God tempts no man

 

James 1:13

 

20. God cannot lie

 

Heb 6:18

 

God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive

 

2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

 

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him

 

Gen 6:5,7

 

Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him

 

Gen 8:21

 

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.

 

Rom 1:20

 

God's attributes cannot be discovered

 

Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

 

23. There is but one God

 

Deut 6:4

 

There is a plurality of gods

 

Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

 

 

 

 

 

Moral Precepts

 

 

 

24. Robbery commanded

 

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

 

Robbery forbidden

 

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

 

25. Lying approved and sanctioned

 

Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22

 

Lying forbidden

 

Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

 

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned

 

2 Kings 14:7,3

 

Hatred to the Edomite forbidden

 

Deut 23:7

 

27. Killing commanded

 

Ex 32:27

 

Killing forbidden

 

Ex 20:13

 

28. The blood-shedder must die

 

Gen 9:5,6

 

The blood-shedder must not die

 

Gen 4:15

 

29. The making of images forbidden

 

Ex 20:4

 

The making of images commanded

 

Ex 25:18,20

 

30. Slavery and oppression ordained

 

Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8

 

Slavery and oppression forbidden

 

Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

 

31. Improvidence enjoyed

 

Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3

 

Improvidence condemned

 

1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

 

32. Anger approved

 

Eph 4:26

 

Anger disapproved

 

Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

 

33. Good works to be seen of men

 

Matt 5:16

 

Good works not to be seen of men

 

Matt 6:1

 

34. Judging of others forbidden

 

Matt 7:1,2

 

Judging of others approved

 

1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

 

35. Christ taught non-resistance

 

Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52

 

Christ taught and practiced physical resistance

 

Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

 

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed

 

Luke 12:4

 

Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed

 

John 7:1

 

37. Public prayer sanctioned

 

1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3

 

Public prayer disapproved

 

Matt 6:5,6

 

38. Importunity in prayer commended

 

Luke 18:5,7

 

Importunity in prayer condemned

 

Matt 6:7,8

 

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned

 

Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5

 

The wearing of long hair by men condemned

 

1 Cor 11:14

 

40. Circumcision instituted

 

Gen 17:10

 

Circumcision condemned

 

Gal 5:2

 

41. The Sabbath instituted

 

Ex 20:8

 

The Sabbath repudiated

 

Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

 

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day

 

Ex 20:11

 

The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites

 

out of Egypt

 

Deut 5:15

 

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death

 

Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36

 

Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in

 

the same

 

John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

 

44. Baptism commanded

 

Matt 28:19

 

Baptism not commanded

 

1 Cor 1:17,14

 

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.

 

Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14

 

Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.

 

Deut 14:7,8

 

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned

 

Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13

 

Taking of oaths forbidden

 

Matt 5:34

 

47. Marriage approved

 

Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4

 

Marriage disapproved

 

1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

 

48. Freedom of divorce permitted

 

Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14

 

Divorce restricted

 

Matt 5:32

 

49. Adultery forbidden

 

Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4

 

Adultery allowed

 

Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

 

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced

 

Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17

 

Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union

 

Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

 

51. A man may marry his brother's widow

 

Deut 25:5

 

A man may not marry his brother's widow

 

Lev 20:21

 

52. Hatred to kindred enjoined

 

Luke 14:26

 

Hatred to kindred condemned

 

Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

 

53. Intoxicating beverages recommended

 

Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15

 

Intoxicating beverages discountenanced

 

Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

 

54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers

 

and punish evil doers only

 

Rom 13:1-3,6

 

It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the

 

good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor

 

Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/

 

Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35

 

55. Women's rights denied

 

Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6

 

Women's rights affirmed

 

Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9

 

56. Obedience to masters enjoined

 

Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18

 

Obedience due to God only

 

Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10

 

57. There is an unpardonable sin

 

Mark 3:29

 

There is not unpardonable sin

 

Acts 13:39

 

 

 

 

 

Historical Facts

 

 

 

58. Man was created after the other animals

 

Gen 1:25,26,27

 

Man was created before the other animals

 

Gen 2:18,19

 

59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease

 

Gen 8:22

 

Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years

 

Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6

 

60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart

 

Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12

 

Pharaoh hardened his own heart

 

Ex 8:15

 

61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died

 

Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9

 

All the horses of Egypt did not die

 

Ex 14:9

 

62. Moses feared Pharaoh

 

Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19

 

Moses did not fear Pharaoh

 

Heb 11:27

 

63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand

 

Num 25:9

 

There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand

 

1 Cor 10:8

 

64. John the Baptist was Elias

 

Matt 11:14

 

John the Baptist was not Elias

 

John 1:21

 

65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob

 

Matt 1:16

 

The father of Mary's husband was Heli

 

Luke 3:23

 

66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad

 

Gen 11:12

 

The father of Salah was Cainan

 

Luke 3:35,36

 

67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David

 

Matt 1:17

 

There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David

 

Matt 1:2-6

 

68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity

 

to Christ.

 

Matt 1:17

 

There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian

 

captivity to Christ

 

Matt 1:12-16

 

69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt

 

Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23

 

The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt

 

Luke 2:22, 39

 

70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness

 

Mark 1:12,13

 

Christ was not tempted in the wilderness

 

John 2:1,2

 

71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount

 

Matt 5:1,2

 

Christ preached his first sermon on the plain

 

Luke 6:17,20

 

72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee

 

Mark 1:14

 

John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee

 

John 1:43/ John 3:22-24

 

73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff

 

and sandals

 

Mark 6:8,9

 

Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither

 

staffs nor sandals.

 

Matt 10:9,10

 

74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus

 

Matt 15:22

 

It was a Greek woman who besought Him

 

Mark 7:26

 

75. Two blind men besought Jesus

 

Matt 20:30

 

Only one blind man besought Him

 

Luke 18:35,38

 

76. Christ was crucified at the third hour

 

Mark 15:25

 

Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour

 

John 19:14,15

 

77. The two thieves reviled Christ.

 

Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32

 

Only one of the thieves reviled Christ

 

Luke 23:39,40

 

78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper

 

John 13:27

 

Satan entered into him before the supper

 

Luke 22:3,4,7

 

79. Judas committed suicide by hanging

 

Matt 27:5

 

Judas did not hang himself, but died another way

 

Acts 1:18

 

80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas

 

Acts 1:18

 

The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests

 

Matt 27:6,7

 

81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre

 

John 20:1

 

There were two women who came to the sepulchre

 

Matt 28:1

 

82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre

 

Mark 16:1

 

There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre

 

Luke 24:10

 

83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre

 

Mark 16:2

 

It was some time before sunrise when they came.

 

John 20:1

 

84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and

 

they were standing up.

 

Luke 24:4

 

There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.

 

Matt 28:2,5

 

85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.

 

John 20:11,12

 

There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre

 

Mark 16:5

 

86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave

 

Matt 12:40

 

Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave

 

Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>

 

87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost

 

Acts 1:8,5

 

Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost

 

John 20:22

 

88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the

 

resurrection to go into Galilee

 

Matt 28:10

 

The disciples were commanded immediately after the

 

resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem

 

Luke 24:49

 

89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at

 

Jerusalem

 

Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19

 

Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee

 

Matt 28:16,17

 

90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet

 

Acts 1:9,12

 

Christ ascended from Bethany

 

Luke 24:50,51

 

91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood

 

speechless

 

Acts 9:7

 

Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate

 

Acts 26:14

 

92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan

 

Gen 12:5

 

Abraham went not knowing where

 

Heb 11:8

 

93. Abraham had two sons

 

Gal 4:22

 

Abraham had but one son

 

Heb 11:17

 

94. Keturah was Abraham's wife

 

Gen 25:1

 

Keturah was Abraham's concubine

 

1 Chron 1:32

 

95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the

 

interposition of Providence

 

Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12

 

Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years

 

old without any interposition of providence

 

Gen 25:1,2

 

96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor

 

Josh 24:32

 

Abraham bought it of Hamor

 

Acts 7:16

 

97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed

 

forever

 

Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8

 

Abraham and his seed never received the promised land

 

Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13

 

98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan

 

2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be

 

correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>

 

The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan

 

1 Chron 20:5

 

99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram

 

2 Kings 8:25

 

Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram

 

2 Kings 9:29

 

100. Michal had no child

 

2 Sam 6:23

 

Michal had five children

 

 

 

Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send

 

peace, but a sword.

 

- Matthew 10:34

 

 

 

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

 

- Matthew 26:52

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For wrath killeth the foolish man...

 

- Job 5:2

 

 

 

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.

 

- Ephesians 4:26

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which

 

is in heaven.

 

- John 3:13

 

 

 

... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

- 2 Kings 2:11

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

 

- John 5:31

 

 

 

I am one that bear witness of myself...

 

- John 8:18

 

[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...

 

- Proverbs 13:22

 

 

 

Sell that ye have and give alms...

 

- Luke 12:33

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches

 

shall be in his house...

 

- Psalms 112:1-3

 

 

 

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than

 

for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

 

- Matthew 19:24

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I and my father are one.

 

- John 10:30

 

 

 

... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

- John 14:28

 

[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thou shalt not kill

 

- Exodus 20:13

 

 

 

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his

 

side... and slay every man his brother...

 

- Exodus 32:27

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

 

- Exodus 20:8

 

 

 

The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot

 

away with: it is iniquity.

 

- Isaiah 3:22

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness

 

of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water.

 

- Leviticus 26:11

 

 

 

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt

 

thou make them.

 

- Exodus 25:18

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.

 

- Ephesians 2:8-9

 

 

 

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by

 

faith only.

 

- James 2:24

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man,

 

that he should repent.

 

- Numbers 23:19

 

 

 

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his

 

people.

 

- Exodus 32:14

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall

 

hear his voice, and come forth...

 

- John 5:28-29

 

 

 

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth

 

down to the grave shall come up no more.

 

- Job 7:9

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth,

 

hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for

 

wound, stripe for stripe.

 

- Exodus 21:23-25

 

 

 

... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right

 

cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

- Matthew 5:39

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honor thy father and mother.

 

- Exodus 20:12

 

 

 

If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and

 

wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own

 

life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

- Luke 14:26

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...

 

- Matthew 6:19

 

 

 

In the house of the righteous is much treasure...

 

- Proverbs 15:6

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

- Genesis 32:30

 

 

 

No man hath seen God at any time.

 

- John 1:18

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

 

- Ezekiel 18:20

 

 

 

... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of

 

the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth

 

generation.

 

- Exodus 20:5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth

 

understanding.

 

- Proverbs 3:13

 

 

 

For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth

 

knowledge increaseth sorrow.

 

- Ecclesiastes 1:18

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Lord is good to all.

 

- Psalm 145:6

 

 

 

I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.

 

- Isaiah 45:7

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.

 

- Matthew 5:22

 

 

 

[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.

 

- Matthew 23:17

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For all have sinned.

 

- Romans 3:23

 

 

 

There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect

 

and upright.

 

- Job 1:1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.

 

- 2 Kings 8:26

 

 

 

Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.

 

- 2 Chronicles 22:2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do

 

according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

 

- Numbers 30:2

 

 

 

But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by

 

earth.

 

- Matthew 5:34-35

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... the earth abideth forever.

 

- Ecclesiastes 1:4

 

 

 

... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and

 

the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

- 2 Peter 3:10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger

 

forever.

 

- Jeremiah 3:12

 

 

 

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.

 

- Jeremiah 17:4

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

 

- James 1:13

 

 

 

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt

 

Abraham.

 

- Genesis 22:1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good.

 

- Genesis 1:31

 

 

 

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it

 

grieved him at his heart

 

- Genesis 6:6

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be

 

there forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there

 

perpetually.

 

- II Chronicles 7:16

 

 

 

Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.

 

- Acts 7:48

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto.

 

- I Timothy 6:16

 

 

 

The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

 

 

 

- I Kings 8:12

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

 

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid.

 

- Genesis 3:9,10

 

 

 

Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape.

 

- John 5:37

 

 

 

 

 

God is not the author of confusion.

 

- I Corinthians 24:33

 

 

 

Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good?

 

- Lamentations 3:38

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those that seek me early shall find me.

 

- Proverbs 8:17

 

 

 

Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall

 

seek me early, but shall not find me.

 

- Proverbs 1:28

 

 

 

Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the

 

elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw

 

God, and did eat and drink.

 

- Exodus 24: 9-11

 

 

 

Whom no man hath seen nor can see.

 

- I Timothy 6:16

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With God all things are possible.

 

- Matthew 29:26

 

 

 

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of

 

the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the

 

valley, because they had chariots of iron.

 

- Judges 1:19[/hide]

 

 

 

That's just a sampling, some are weaker than others, and some are stronger. I particularly like the last one :P

 

 

 

Going to bed now, night everyone :)

[Zierro]

^^^

 

 

 

Wow, that's a long list. I knew the book contradicted itself, but I had no idea it was that bad.

[Flyingjj]

Sorry, I did end up figuring out while typing that last post that I am actually gaining something from this conversation. I'm learning a ton about my own faith and growing stronger in it all the while. I may continue to put input in, especially when something outrageous is posted, like that list of contradictions. Here is what I wrote in response to that:

 

 

 

Oh, it's definitely not that bad. I randomly picked some to check, and NONE of them I did were actual contradictions. For starters, many ignore context. Others simply leave off half the verse to prove their point. One prominent problem I notice is one I already pointed out, that being language. Just for example, Greek has several words for "sword," which have different meanings and refer to entirely different situations.

 

 

 

One of the most outrageous examples was as follows:

 

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

 

- John 5:31

 

 

 

I am one that bear witness of myself...

 

- John 8:18

 

[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

 

 

 

 

Taking the whole context, they read(bearing in mind I have a slightly different translation than that used in the example, but the point remains the same):

 

 

 

If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.

 

-John 5:31-32

 

 

 

In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.

 

-John 8:17-18

 

 

 

Even if you disagree with what Jesus is saying there, the complete context complements itself, not contradicts.

 

And that was just for starters. I have neither the time nor energy to debate each one, but I wanted to point out that that is a completely biased list and should not be taken as fact by anyone who might be persuaded by it.

 

 

 

Tryto and I can agree on one thing: we both are going to bed. Goodnight all.

[Howlin0001]

[hide=Very long list of contradictions]1. God is satisfied with his works

 

Gen 1:31

 

God is dissatisfied with his works.

 

Gen 6:6

 

2. God dwells in chosen temples

 

2 Chron 7:12,16

 

God dwells not in temples

 

Acts 7:48

 

3. God dwells in light

 

Tim 6:16

 

God dwells in darkness

 

1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

 

4. God is seen and heard

 

Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/

 

Ex 24:9-11

 

God is invisible and cannot be heard

 

John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

 

5. God is tired and rests

 

Ex 31:17

 

God is never tired and never rests

 

Is 40:28

 

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things

 

Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21

 

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all

 

things

 

Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

 

7. God knows the hearts of men

 

Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3

 

God tries men to find out what is in their heart

 

Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

 

8. God is all powerful

 

Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26

 

God is not all powerful

 

Judg 1:19

 

9. God is unchangeable

 

James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19

 

God is changeable

 

Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/

 

Ex 33:1,3,17,14

 

10. God is just and impartial

 

Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25

 

God is unjust and partial

 

Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

 

11. God is the author of evil

 

Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25

 

God is not the author of evil

 

1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

 

12. God gives freely to those who ask

 

James 1:5/ Luke 11:10

 

God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving

 

them

 

John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

 

13. God is to be found by those who seek him

 

Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17

 

God is not to be found by those who seek him

 

Prov 1:28

 

14. God is warlike

 

Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15

 

God is peaceful

 

Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

 

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

 

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

 

God is kind, merciful, and good

 

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

 

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

 

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long

 

Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4

 

God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute

 

Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

 

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,

 

sacrifices ,and holy days

 

Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9

 

God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,

 

sacrifices, and holy days.

 

Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

 

18. God accepts human sacrifices

 

2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39

 

God forbids human sacrifice

 

Deut 12:30,31

 

19. God tempts men

 

Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13

 

God tempts no man

 

James 1:13

 

20. God cannot lie

 

Heb 6:18

 

God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive

 

2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

 

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him

 

Gen 6:5,7

 

Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him

 

Gen 8:21

 

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.

 

Rom 1:20

 

God's attributes cannot be discovered

 

Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

 

23. There is but one God

 

Deut 6:4

 

There is a plurality of gods

 

Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

 

 

 

 

 

Moral Precepts

 

 

 

24. Robbery commanded

 

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

 

Robbery forbidden

 

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

 

25. Lying approved and sanctioned

 

Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22

 

Lying forbidden

 

Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

 

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned

 

2 Kings 14:7,3

 

Hatred to the Edomite forbidden

 

Deut 23:7

 

27. Killing commanded

 

Ex 32:27

 

Killing forbidden

 

Ex 20:13

 

28. The blood-shedder must die

 

Gen 9:5,6

 

The blood-shedder must not die

 

Gen 4:15

 

29. The making of images forbidden

 

Ex 20:4

 

The making of images commanded

 

Ex 25:18,20

 

30. Slavery and oppression ordained

 

Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8

 

Slavery and oppression forbidden

 

Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

 

31. Improvidence enjoyed

 

Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3

 

Improvidence condemned

 

1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

 

32. Anger approved

 

Eph 4:26

 

Anger disapproved

 

Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

 

33. Good works to be seen of men

 

Matt 5:16

 

Good works not to be seen of men

 

Matt 6:1

 

34. Judging of others forbidden

 

Matt 7:1,2

 

Judging of others approved

 

1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

 

35. Christ taught non-resistance

 

Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52

 

Christ taught and practiced physical resistance

 

Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

 

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed

 

Luke 12:4

 

Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed

 

John 7:1

 

37. Public prayer sanctioned

 

1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3

 

Public prayer disapproved

 

Matt 6:5,6

 

38. Importunity in prayer commended

 

Luke 18:5,7

 

Importunity in prayer condemned

 

Matt 6:7,8

 

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned

 

Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5

 

The wearing of long hair by men condemned

 

1 Cor 11:14

 

40. Circumcision instituted

 

Gen 17:10

 

Circumcision condemned

 

Gal 5:2

 

41. The Sabbath instituted

 

Ex 20:8

 

The Sabbath repudiated

 

Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

 

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day

 

Ex 20:11

 

The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites

 

out of Egypt

 

Deut 5:15

 

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death

 

Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36

 

Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in

 

the same

 

John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

 

44. Baptism commanded

 

Matt 28:19

 

Baptism not commanded

 

1 Cor 1:17,14

 

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.

 

Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14

 

Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.

 

Deut 14:7,8

 

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned

 

Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13

 

Taking of oaths forbidden

 

Matt 5:34

 

47. Marriage approved

 

Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4

 

Marriage disapproved

 

1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

 

48. Freedom of divorce permitted

 

Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14

 

Divorce restricted

 

Matt 5:32

 

49. Adultery forbidden

 

Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4

 

Adultery allowed

 

Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

 

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced

 

Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17

 

Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union

 

Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

 

51. A man may marry his brother's widow

 

Deut 25:5

 

A man may not marry his brother's widow

 

Lev 20:21

 

52. Hatred to kindred enjoined

 

Luke 14:26

 

Hatred to kindred condemned

 

Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

 

53. Intoxicating beverages recommended

 

Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15

 

Intoxicating beverages discountenanced

 

Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

 

54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers

 

and punish evil doers only

 

Rom 13:1-3,6

 

It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the

 

good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor

 

Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/

 

Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35

 

55. Women's rights denied

 

Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6

 

Women's rights affirmed

 

Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9

 

56. Obedience to masters enjoined

 

Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18

 

Obedience due to God only

 

Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10

 

57. There is an unpardonable sin

 

Mark 3:29

 

There is not unpardonable sin

 

Acts 13:39[/hide]

 

 

 

You never chanced you mind or position on anything before?

[Kevin_]

I don't believe anymore.