Will future bots be almost impossible to detect?

[Punk1991]

I think it's fairly inevitable that the technology which goes into Macroe's will become more efficient and possbily "undetectable".

 

The problem is that whilst JaGex tries to make the game more enjoyable for it's loyal players O:)... They also have the obligation to crack down on auto's which creates a clash in interests. Such as the recent Grand Exchange, and the banning of staking.

[Iamdan]

 

I have an idea for you then, Iamdan... How about you send those logs in to Jagex, with commentaries from you as well as videos and source code and such, and help Jagex with defeating the Autoers/Macroers/RWT'ers? Maybe you can get a job with Jagex after facing a little jail time to pay for your sins too, and really have fun with code and programming, and fight on the right side of the war for a change!

 

 

 

Well I kept it private, so the source code and logs wouldn't help them as nobody else is using it, I wouldn't go to jail for cheating in a game - especially without warning, and I'm not interested in programming with Java and BCEL as a career.

 

 

 

As for fighting on the right side of the war, I guess the 'right side' varies from person to person. I did however think of and suggest a way to stop client edited macroers as soon as they log in. (the type that macro with 15- 30 throwaway accounts at once) But nobody really payed attention to it :(

 

 

 

EDIT: here is that idea I posted If you want to have a squiz.

[@Dan3HitU]

Some people know the answer to this question but can't comment on the situation, so it's best left untouched for everyone.

[Zoobie007]

Why don't they just use image code randoms, I know they used image code fatigue in RSC, but it only used 1 pattern. most sites that use image code these days use many different randomized patterns, colors and fonts.

 

 

 

Also, problem is JAVA can be decompiled to its original source. So some genius could figure out how client works and modify to make perfect bot, which some Chinese did, I think.

[Iamdan]

Why don't they just use image code randoms, I know they used image code fatigue in RSC, but it only used 1 pattern. most sites that use image code these days use many different randomized patterns, colors and fonts.

 

 

 

Also, problem is JAVA can be decompiled to its original source. So some genius could figure out how client works and modify to make perfect bot, which some Chinese did, I think.

 

 

 

Lol. Macroers have been looking through and editing the client since 2002.

 

 

 

The image code thing won't work either, macroers will just use OCR.

[sithlord_man]

I don't think so..Most bots can be detected by interaction...if they repeat the same task over a 3+ hour without talking could suggest they are a bot

[Adam007]

Some people know the answer to this question but can't comment on the situation, so it's best left untouched for everyone.

 

Care to explain how anyone could know what will happen in the future over something they have no control of?

[@Dan3HitU]

Some people know the answer to this question but can't comment on the situation, so it's best left untouched for everyone.

 

Care to explain how anyone could know what will happen in the future over something they have no control of?

 

I mean about how the "detection system" works on how to target botters.

 

 

 

In a nut-shell, bots will never be stopped because RuneScape is built with Java.

[meili]

Fey, very interesting.

 

 

 

Duke, allow RWT in RS? Only if they removed subscriptions altogether and basically made everyone p2p.

 

 

 

I believe in most games that sell items for cash generally tend to limit the type and amount of things they sell.

 

 

 

Hmm I will have to reread that Sony thing but I thought they had special servers where RWT was allowed and the rest were regular servers? That sounds like a better compromise to me but people would still buy gold in the regular servers. :(

 

 

 

Outright selling gold is mostly discouraged as it removes the reason for playing...which as most people here on Tip It and Rs tell me is they want to make gp. Why spend 50 hours making 10 mil when you can buy 10 mil gp for $3?

 

 

 

Back on topic:

 

 

 

Even if jagex were somehow able to magically detect and ban every bot ever made, they would still have gold farmers. The underlying problem is still there, which is RWT.

[Fey_Warrior]

Fey_Warrior thanks for taking your time to answer.

 

 

 

I just want to clear up:

 

I'm aware that the whole industry stinks and I'm very happy with the way JageX are trying to fix the issue. There is nothing better than to see rule breakers getting banned from the game so us legit players can play in peace on a fair competitive platform.

 

 

 

The only thing I didn't like was how you were generalizing the bot/macro/gold farmer industry. Of course after reading your post(s) over 2 more times I didn't find too much to base my arguments on, so I conclude that I did jump to conclusions a bit quickly.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to the Dev Diary myself. I personally hope that JageX will state that they will go to extreme lengths to fix the problem(s). And I think they will as they have already changed (or ruined, depends how you look at it) the duel arena.

 

 

 

Hi Fredz,

 

 

 

It was probably the tone of my writing that was unnecessarily grim and if that put you off. I apologise for getting lost in the seriousness of it all and forgetting about you and other players who are the people I'm meant to be responding to.

 

 

 

It's just while I was composing that long post I was reading articles about that company which...to be honest...disgusted me. I had mentioned these articles to Jagex staff, and they said they were well aware of the background of this company. It's also one of the reasons they are so opposed to RWT. The bottom-line I guess is that if these are the type of people who promote and conduct RWT, they are certainly not the ones you'd want your teens giving any personal contact or financial details too, let alone meeting up alone with them in-game.

 

 

 

As far as detecting RWTers is concerned that's something that will always require us as players, to keep Jagex informed. As it was players who first reported these odd behaviours in-game, and players who complained, and for players Rule 7 and Rule 12 was written, it's obviously we who will likely also see problems at times before Jagex does.

 

 

 

As a programmer I know how important user comments are about any system, and they can often spot things that even the best analysis can fail to identify. Contrary to some mistaken beliefs, reporting does help.

 

 

 

From my own observations of the Hi-Scores list after submitting reports nearly 100% of my Rule 7 reports result in names being removed That anecdotal evidence alone, for me at least is proof that very report does get checked. Indeed, if our reports may identify new patterns and actions by bots previously undiscovered. So it's likely our reports that are essential to helping fine tune whatever detection systems Jagex uses. This is why they've posted a detailed sticky on how to submit reports.

 

 

 

It's our help that will ensure that bots, regardless of their attempts to avoid detection, will always been seen and reported by us.

 

 

 

This is similar to what other players have said here, and I do trust we will know a bot when we see it:

 

I think they will be undetectable to a certain extent. I dont use them but i fully know how they work.

 

 

 

See they could be undetectable to a certain extent as they are programmed to deal with randoms but if its a highly suspected macro a mod could always check it out.

 

 

 

So basiclay my idea is that they can be unpredictable to everything but a actul human authority such as a P MOD or J MOD

 

 

 

Today is a perfect example, of what kranked1 was describing.

 

 

 

At the Yews behind the Varrock Palace, two other players and I knew who exactly who were players and who were bots. I succeeded hopefully identifying and reporting at every bot in that area over a period of 2 hours, which will likely result in removing possibly 20 or more. I did all this while not interrupting my game-play too (in the spare moments between waiting for Yews to grow back).

 

 

 

I also noticed the bots were occasionally typing a dialogue 'dot', one might presume as a counter detection measure. As I'd been there the day before doing the same thing, Jagex will have 2 days of reports, with a record of the dialogue and frequency of their counter-measures.

 

 

 

Sorry I don't have time to answer the other good questions and responses here, but it's been a long day at work, and doing volunteer work (for the RuneScape player community) usually takes up a lot of my free time before I even get to play the game we all enjoy.

 

 

 

On that note happy debating :)

[D. V. Devnull]

Getting a little side-railed, but not much...

 

 

I have an idea for you then, Iamdan... How about you send those logs in to Jagex, with commentaries from you as well as videos and source code and such, and help Jagex with defeating the Autoers/Macroers/RWT'ers? Maybe you can get a job with Jagex after facing a little jail time to pay for your sins too, and really have fun with code and programming, and fight on the right side of the war for a change!

 

 

 

Well I kept it private, so the source code and logs wouldn't help them as nobody else is using it, I wouldn't go to jail for cheating in a game - especially without warning, and I'm not interested in programming with Java and BCEL as a career.

 

 

 

As for fighting on the right side of the war, I guess the 'right side' varies from person to person. I did however think of and suggest a way to stop client edited macroers as soon as they log in. (the type that macro with 15- 30 throwaway accounts at once) But nobody really payed attention to it :(

 

 

 

EDIT: here is that idea I posted If you want to have a squiz.

 

That idea you thought up sounds rather good. Modified stuff wouldn't be able to handle it if it was done properly. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

However (and I understand as I say this that you don't like the thought of doing Java-related stuff for a job), I think that this kind of thing won't happen without someone like yourself getting a job at Jagex and lending your knowledge to the fight. It is true that the "right side" does vary from person to person, but wouldn't it be better to be fighting on the correct side of the macroing issue ('Jagex's and any 'innocent user's) and actually make money for it too, legal money that you can walk home with and be able to say "Yahoo!!! I'm kicking [bleep] on the net and making good money for it too!!!" and sleep well at night knowing that you're making a positive difference? :

 

 

 

BTW, I have heard of people going to jail for cheating. Usually because they've broken the "No Reverse Engineering" term of a company's TOS. Personally, I could hope that you wouldn't, especially if you went to work for Jagex, but even I don't know what would happen there, so I was assuming worst case. Sorry for that headache. :(

 

 

 

~Mr. Devnull

[bbjoe282]

i hughly doubt that it will happen and if it does jagex would end up banning people in game with jubberish names

[deyan2]

If they are undetecteble than we won't see and recognice them either, so we will simply think there don't exist any bots any more. :wink: :)

[Nenga]

Autoers are going to become harder to detect i mean behind the programing are humans programing the program. I've been mining rune essence and i've noticed that autoers are not restricting theirself to the usual attire (basic clothes) but now are even customizing their characters. What jagex should do insted of consentrating on updates to take care of autoers they should try to find codes that conflict with the autoers programing.

[DegenerateX]

Good History, but i can't see bots responding to players for atleast a decade.

 

 

 

However i've always wondered why scripter don't make pairs of bots that talk in a cycle between each other. Also bots become harder to detect with pattern randomisers and by not wearing green clothes and being lvl 3.

 

 

 

A lvl 45 bot that talked to its 'friend' and wasn't wearing green clothes with a less detectable pattenrn would be quite convincing. :S thinking about it, they might already have done it. :ohnoes:

 

 

 

Wake up and smell the music buddy. Starblaster100's essence miner has over 10,000 different words/phrases that it uses to respond to certain q's. By identifying certain keywords in text around them bots can easily decipher a response from their built in vocabulary.

[D. V. Devnull]

Good History, but i can't see bots responding to players for atleast a decade.

 

 

 

However i've always wondered why scripter don't make pairs of bots that talk in a cycle between each other. Also bots become harder to detect with pattern randomisers and by not wearing green clothes and being lvl 3.

 

 

 

A lvl 45 bot that talked to its 'friend' and wasn't wearing green clothes with a less detectable pattenrn would be quite convincing. :S thinking about it, they might already have done it. :ohnoes:

 

Wake up and smell the music buddy. Starblaster100's essence miner has over 10,000 different words/phrases that it uses to respond to certain q's. By identifying certain keywords in text around them bots can easily decipher a response from their built in vocabulary.

 

I haven't seen one of those. :? ... For the purposes of this discussion, I wish to know, do they operate on f2p, or are they just p2p-only? :-s ... I have to say, that kind of bot would pose a serious problem in my detecting it, and I normally bulls-eye them with my own eyes. :(

 

 

 

~Mr. D. V. Devnull

[berbatovsky]

There will never be undetectable bots in Runescape, there may be a time when there is true A.I but it certainly wont be soon and even more certainly wont be applied to cheating in Runescape.

 

 

 

Maybe Jagex wont/can't detect a bot through mechanical processes but any human can tell a bot from a human unless someone takes the time to write a script responding to ever single possible comment a person could make (this would take one person longer than is imaginable and even a concerted effort of thousands would only achieve this in a decade or so).

 

 

 

Why do people spend what must be years making these (the complex ones) programs? Is it for money?

[Iamdan]

Though he is excellent with pascal and a cool guy, Starblaster poses no real threat. 10,000 responses isn't all that much when you think about it. Most of them are just variances of one another. My auto responder has a little under 17,000 and when I macroed I was adding to it constantly so even then it was never complete. He uses SRL which takes your mouse, and while it's core idea is good and it is undetectable if you can script - it really isn't all that powerful.

 

 

 

He also sells all of his good scripts, so only the incompetent programmers and friends that get it for free use them.

 

 

 

You wouldn't be able to spot anybody who uses SRL unless they had a really terrible script.

[Nhs_Xc]

Honestly, the bots out right now are pretty advanced. TO me there are two types of autoers.

 

 

 

Autoer A) The level threes that woodcut/mine/etc non stop. Usualy going for the most raw resources

 

 

 

Autoer B) Either autos on a high level character or raises combat on a new character to avoid suspesion. Also they might auto 4 hours every other day. These autoers usualy are looking more for level goals (alongside with the money that might benefit).

 

 

 

My thoughts are that JageX right now has a pretty week anti-macro system that relies heavily on people reporting macroing. Option A) Is very obvious and easy to report but option B) can be a little more tricky.

 

 

 

My thoughts on JageX sides is they are going to try to nerf everything that helps RWT first and then later next year look for more updates on anti-macroing.

[remington]

Quite honestly I used to believe Jagex had a handle on the bots in this game.

 

 

 

Then I took a walk through F2P.

 

 

 

Then I hopped the ditch and saw how many "pures" now exist.

 

 

 

I used to hate the thought that Jagex is going to remove all direct player to player trades.

 

 

 

But now, after seeing all these "players" breaking the rules I welcome it.

 

 

 

If removing RWT and all their bots means I have to put up with only trading on the GE with it's 5 percent market controls then so be it.

 

 

 

Jagex has dropped the ball, and instead of taking the "expensive" route and hiring mods to do bot sweeps every hour of every day they are just going to remove the "source" of the problem.

 

 

 

We know Jagex is incapable of banning bots without "accidentally" removing honest players.

 

 

 

With player trading/dropping removed RWT will be gone. There will then be no need for their item bots.

 

 

 

Once THAT flood is gone the only bots left will be small, AND [hopefully] easier for Jagex to find/remove.

 

 

 

And this also removes the ability for mains to trade items to their pures, or to use mule accounts in F2P.

 

 

 

Two decidedly evil birds killed with one stone.